Logisystems

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Logisystems

Willie McKemie
I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months.  Recall that
my Hyundai:
http://evalbum.com/2314
came to me last January with a Curtis that had jerking power dropouts.
We put about 6K miles on it as the Curtis' misbehavior got worse and
worse.  Meanwhile, the Escort:
http://evalbum.com/1213
was in Wayne's shop receiving a lithium transplant.  I finally told
Wayne to put a 156v 550 amp Logisystem in the Escort and send me a 156v
750 amp Logisystem for the Hyundai.  With the new Logisystem in the
Hyundai, the power dropout problem went away and performance improved
marginally.  The car has never done a 20 second 0-60.  And the
Logisystem worked fairly well for about 2K miles.  Then, it blew up
rather spectacularly.  Jim at Logisystem seemed concerned and I decided
to try a replacement though Jim offered no assurance that they were
certain of a problem.  Jim said they did have some unspecified
"upgrade".  While waiting for the replacement 750 amp, I received the
Escort back from Wayne.  After some additional work on the Escort, I
put it on the road and worked on balancing the pack.  The Escort went
about 40 miles before it's Logisystem failed.  OK, I probably shouldn't
have been using that version of the controller since there was some
upgrade available for it.  I get the new 750 amp and have all the
burned wiring repaired.  I drive it about 500 miles and it fails.  
That's three Logisystem failures in about two months and probably less
than 2,000 miles total.  Three strandings (~5, ~10, & ~30 miles) and
three tow ins.

What's the point of all of this?  I solicit Logisystem stories.  Do
they work more reliably with lead packs?  Is anyone having success
with Logisystem with about 45 LFP cells?  I can think of two possible
ways in which I may be over-stressing controllers:
1) My packs of 45 260 ah cells have essentially no sag; the controller
almost never sees less than 140 volts from the pack.  Is it possible
that controllers are less stressed with the greater sag of lead?
2) Due to lack of tachometer and clutch, we tend to lug the motors.  
We many times start in 4th gear which we can also use as a highway
speed cruising gear.  We tend to stay away from the upper motor speed
range because it takes some thinking to estimate motor speed from
road speed and gear.  Does low motor speed stress controllers?

Any other ideas?

My controllers are both mounted near the motors, wire runs are less
than 2' from the controller to the motor.  Is it possible that there
are wiring errors there?

I do have at least one newly refurbished Logisystem for sale.  All
offers considered.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days  1 hours 52 minutes

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Re: Logisystems

damon henry

I have had my Logisystems on the road for a year now.  It is a 120v 1000 amp version.  I am running 108 volt pack of flooded Nicads and my truck weighs about 2600lbs.  Notice that I am running my controller at less than the maximum.  My NiCads don't sag as much as lead, still most of my driving is done in the 90 - 100 volt range.  

 

Also, I have taken the time to figure out what speeds are safe in what gears, and I keep my motor RPMs high not low.  Note, that you do not need a tachometer to do this.  I do not have one.  I figured this out before I ever drove my truck.  I just measured off a 100 foot section of road and figured out how many revolutions the motor did in each gear when moving the truck 100 feet and did the math from there.  In my case, the only gear I really ever have to worry about overspeeding my motor in is 1st.  Once you have figured it out once, you never have to worry about it again.  2nd gear for me is fine at 60 mph although I never go over 50 in 2nd and 3d and 4th are each good for faster than I ever drive my truck.

 

Finally, if you are not disconnecting your controller from your pack while charging, you should look at how high of a voltage you are exposing it to on charge.  Your lithiums may have a higher finishing voltage than a similar lead acid pack would.

 

 

damon

>
> Any other ideas?
>
> My controllers are both mounted near the motors, wire runs are less
> than 2' from the controller to the motor. Is it possible that there
> are wiring errors there?
>
> I do have at least one newly refurbished Logisystem for sale. All
> offers considered.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 737 days 1 hours 52 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: Logisystems

Mike Golub-2
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
1- 45*4v=180v overvoltage for sure. It's a 156v controller what allows you
to use 180 volts?
2- 4th gear? You shouldn't need it-ever
3- Learn how to do a speed shift, or get a clutch.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Willie McKemie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months.  Recall that
> my Hyundai:
> http://evalbum.com/2314
> came to me last January with a Curtis that had jerking power dropouts.
> We put about 6K miles on it as the Curtis' misbehavior got worse and
> worse.  Meanwhile, the Escort:
> http://evalbum.com/1213
> was in Wayne's shop receiving a lithium transplant.  I finally told
> Wayne to put a 156v 550 amp Logisystem in the Escort and send me a 156v
> 750 amp Logisystem for the Hyundai.  With the new Logisystem in the
> Hyundai, the power dropout problem went away and performance improved
> marginally.  The car has never done a 20 second 0-60.  And the
> Logisystem worked fairly well for about 2K miles.  Then, it blew up
> rather spectacularly.  Jim at Logisystem seemed concerned and I decided
> to try a replacement though Jim offered no assurance that they were
> certain of a problem.  Jim said they did have some unspecified
> "upgrade".  While waiting for the replacement 750 amp, I received the
> Escort back from Wayne.  After some additional work on the Escort, I
> put it on the road and worked on balancing the pack.  The Escort went
> about 40 miles before it's Logisystem failed.  OK, I probably shouldn't
> have been using that version of the controller since there was some
> upgrade available for it.  I get the new 750 amp and have all the
> burned wiring repaired.  I drive it about 500 miles and it fails.
> That's three Logisystem failures in about two months and probably less
> than 2,000 miles total.  Three strandings (~5, ~10, & ~30 miles) and
> three tow ins.
>
> What's the point of all of this?  I solicit Logisystem stories.  Do
> they work more reliably with lead packs?  Is anyone having success
> with Logisystem with about 45 LFP cells?  I can think of two possible
> ways in which I may be over-stressing controllers:
> 1) My packs of 45 260 ah cells have essentially no sag; the controller
> almost never sees less than 140 volts from the pack.  Is it possible
> that controllers are less stressed with the greater sag of lead?
> 2) Due to lack of tachometer and clutch, we tend to lug the motors.
> We many times start in 4th gear which we can also use as a highway
> speed cruising gear.  We tend to stay away from the upper motor speed
> range because it takes some thinking to estimate motor speed from
> road speed and gear.  Does low motor speed stress controllers?
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> My controllers are both mounted near the motors, wire runs are less
> than 2' from the controller to the motor.  Is it possible that there
> are wiring errors there?
>
> I do have at least one newly refurbished Logisystem for sale.  All
> offers considered.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days  1 hours 52 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
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>
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Re: Logisystems

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie McKemie wrote:
> I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months...
> three Logisystem failures in about two months and probably less
> than 2,000 miles total.

As an engineer, I'd want to know more about the failures. What exactly
has failed in these controllers?

Is the controller failing from being exposed to too high a voltage? What
is your pack voltage? How high does it get at the end of a charge cycle?

Is it failing from excessive temperature? Is the controller getting hot,
or very hot? What do you have for cooling it?

Is it failing from high currents? Do you shift to keep motor RPM low,
and thus force controller current to be high (you should be doing the
reverse). Do you have the current limit turned "wide open", or have you
backed it off to give yourself a safety margin?

Could the failures be induced by your environment? Water getting inside,
or shock or vibration?

Are you using a non-isolated charger? This can stress the controller
from exposure to very high peak voltage transients on the AC power line.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Logisystems

Willie McKemie
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:25:32AM -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months...
> > three Logisystem failures in about two months and probably less
> > than 2,000 miles total.
>
> As an engineer, I'd want to know more about the failures. What exactly
> has failed in these controllers?

No clue.  Logisystem hasn't told me.
The first few photos here:
http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/images/images40
show the aftermath of the first failure.

> Is the controller failing from being exposed to too high a voltage? What
> is your pack voltage? How high does it get at the end of a charge cycle?

I understand that the controller voltage rating is for nominal pack
voltage.  My nominal voltage is 3.2x45=144.  Peak voltage at end of
charge is about 165v.  The controller is, I believe, isolated from
charging voltage by the main contactor.  The controller might be seeing
just over 150v right after a charge.  Everyone I've talked to,
including Logisystem, opines that my packs are appropriate for the
rating of the controller.
 
> Is it failing from excessive temperature? Is the controller getting hot,
> or very hot? What do you have for cooling it?

I've never noticed it being very hot.  It is cooled by two 12 v pancake
fans as recommended.

> Is it failing from high currents? Do you shift to keep motor RPM low,
> and thus force controller current to be high (you should be doing the

I do have some tables printed for road speed, motor speed, and gear.  
I've noted the motor speed that is supposed to be peak efficiency.  
That's about 2500rpm as I recall.  That speed is approximately 10, 20,
30, 40, and 50 mph in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears respectively.  
All that "as I recall".  If we feel like shifting, we start in 2nd.  
Else, 3rd or 4th.  Typically, shift to 4th from 3rd at about 40mph, if
we shift from 4th to 5th it is 50 mph or more.

> reverse). Do you have the current limit turned "wide open", or have you
> backed it off to give yourself a safety margin?

Don't know.  The first 750 amp, I twiddled adjustments to try to get
better performance.  The second 750 amp, I left at factory settings.  
The 550 amp that failed in it's first two hours had not been twiddled;
that one is on a 7" motor.
 
> Could the failures be induced by your environment? Water getting inside,
> or shock or vibration?

Don't think so.

> Are you using a non-isolated charger? This can stress the controller
> from exposure to very high peak voltage transients on the AC power line.

The main contactor should isolate the controller from the Zivan charger
while charging.  The main contactor is actuated only when key is on AND
throttle is depressed.

Thanks for your attention.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days  6 hours 42 minutes

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Re: Logisystems

Russco
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
> I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months.

> > What's the point of all of this?  I solicit Logisystem stories.  Do
> they work more reliably with lead packs?  Is anyone having success
> with Logisystem with about 45 LFP cells?  I can think of two possible
> ways in which I may be over-stressing controllers:

> Any other ideas?
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!

That's too bad.  I was hoping the Logisystems controllers were reliable
after their revisions and cooling fans done a year ago.

Logisystems used to take old Curtis controllers and change out the parts
for greater voltage/current.  But, in my opinion, the Curtis is sort of
marginal to begin with.  Now that the patents of Steve Post/PMC/Curtis
have expired, it looks like Logisystems (and others) have implemented the
Curtis design into their higher power controllers.  And the flaws have
been copied as well: No active pre-charge, no reverse polarity protection,
no runaway protection, and voltage controlled PWM with those jerky starts.

Willie, you would be an excellent candidate for the new Russco controller.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com

The Other Adjustable PFC Charger With Built In GFCI


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Re: Logisystems

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by Lee Hart

On Dec 21, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

> Are you using a non-isolated charger? This can stress the controller
> from exposure to very high peak voltage transients on the AC power  
> line.

Shouldn't the controller be out of the circuit while charging?

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Re: Logisystems

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie McKemie wrote:

> I do have some tables printed for road speed, motor speed, and gear.  
> I've noted the motor speed that is supposed to be peak efficiency.  
> That's about 2500rpm as I recall.  That speed is
> approximately 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 mph in 1st, 2nd, 3rd,
> 4th, and 5th gears respectively.  
> All that "as I recall".  If we feel like shifting, we start in 2nd.  
> Else, 3rd or 4th.  Typically, shift to 4th from 3rd at about
> 40mph, if we shift from 4th to 5th it is 50 mph or more.

These speeds sound _really_ low.  I use only 2nd and 3rd in my EV; I shift to 3rd at about 40-45mph.

I would strongly suspect that you have been running the motor at lower RPM and higher current than is desirable.

> The main contactor should isolate the controller from the
> Zivan charger while charging.  The main contactor is actuated
> only when key is on AND throttle is depressed.

The Zivan charger is isolated, so you should be OK with respect to line transients anyway.

Now, about this main contactor closing each time the throttle is pressed and openng each time it is released... Do you have a precharge resistor across the contactor to gently precharge the controller caps before the throttle is first pressed, and to keep them prechaged each time you release the throttle while driving?  Do you have a relay in series with the precharge resistor that closes only when the key is on (and/or a 'main' contactor on both sides of the pack)?

I'm going to go with lugging your motor as the most likely cause of stress on the controller.  Starting in 3rd or 4th gears will force the controller to operate at higher motor current, and at higher current for longer, than if you use first or second to start.

Try starting in 2nd gear and use that for around town speeds (up to ~40mph); if 2500RPM in 2nd is about 20mph, then you should be fine to 40-45mph (~5000RPM).  Use 3rd up to 60mph and upshift to 4th for overtaking.

I think you'll find that the difference in efficiency is negligible and you should enjoy a significant increase in controller reliability.

It doesn't sound to me as if you are stressing the controller with voltage.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: Logisystems

Willie McKemie
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:00:05AM -0800, Roger Stockton wrote:

> Now, about this main contactor closing each time the throttle is
pressed and openng each time it is released... Do you have a precharge
resistor across the contactor to gently precharge the controller caps
before the throttle is first pressed, and to keep them prechaged each
time you release the throttle while driving?  Do you have a relay in
series with the precharge resistor that closes only when the key is on
(and/or a 'main' contactor on both sides of the pack)?

I don't know anything about a precharge resistor, though I've seen them
mentioned here many times.  I depended on Wayne to do what needed to be
done there.  Wayne?

Do you know that the Logisystem does not have an internal precharge
resistor?  I haven't noticed anything that I thought might be a
precharge resistor in the vicinity of the main contactor.

I'm replacing that Logisystem 750amp with an EVnetics.  I believe the
EVnetics does have an internal precharge resistor.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days  9 hours 20 minutes

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Re: Logisystems

SLPinfo.org
In reply to this post by Russco
I have a 120-144V, 750A Logisystems (purchased Nov 2008) and have had no
problems for over 2500 miles. http://www.evalbum.com/1974  I run a 120V
system with a 9" ADC motor.

My understanding is that generally Logisystems controllers have been pretty
reliable.  The one "fly in their ointment" was that in 2008 they did so some
sort of design upgrade that didn't work out - it was my understanding that
they went back to their old design.  My controller was actually recalled
before I put it in, and they sent me a new one (with the old design).

I was using 12V Lead floodies until recently when I decided to switch to 12V
AGMs (~500 miles so far).  No controller issues with either.

Like Damon and some others, I too tend to keep the rpm high.  I start out in
first, shift to 2nd at 20-25 mph, and to 3rd at about 35-40 mph - I never
need to go faster than 45 mph, but in principle I'd shift to 4th at about
55-60 mph. There are some very straightforward formulae in Mike Brown's
"Convert It" book that I used to calculate the max speeds in each gear (I
have a tach but it's not working yet).  For purposes of the calculations, I
assumed 4500-5000 rpm as the optimum high end for my motor.

- Peter Flipsen Jr

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:24 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months.
>
> > > What's the point of all of this?  I solicit Logisystem stories.  Do
> > they work more reliably with lead packs?  Is anyone having success
> > with Logisystem with about 45 LFP cells?  I can think of two possible
> > ways in which I may be over-stressing controllers:
>
> > Any other ideas?
> > --
> > Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
>
> That's too bad.  I was hoping the Logisystems controllers were reliable
> after their revisions and cooling fans done a year ago.
>
> Logisystems used to take old Curtis controllers and change out the parts
> for greater voltage/current.  But, in my opinion, the Curtis is sort of
> marginal to begin with.  Now that the patents of Steve Post/PMC/Curtis
> have expired, it looks like Logisystems (and others) have implemented the
> Curtis design into their higher power controllers.  And the flaws have
> been copied as well: No active pre-charge, no reverse polarity protection,
> no runaway protection, and voltage controlled PWM with those jerky starts.
>
> Willie, you would be an excellent candidate for the new Russco controller.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO Engineering
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
> The Other Adjustable PFC Charger With Built In GFCI
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: Logisystems

Willie McKemie
In reply to this post by Russco
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:24:20AM -0800, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Willie, you would be an excellent candidate for the new Russco controller.
> http://russcoev.com

I'm all ears.  I don't see anything about it on your website.  I've
been looking at Synkromotive, EVnetics, and Warp.  At the present time,
the Synkromotive requires some microsoft software for configuration.  
The EVnetics has an embedded web server and is configured via a network
cable.

Incidentally, I queried you about a month ago about a charger.  When
I got no reply, I bought elsewhere.  I believe I used your sonic.net
address which is listed on your website.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days  9 hours 29 minutes

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Re: Logisystems

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
>> As an engineer, I'd want to know more about the failures. What exactly
>> has failed in these controllers?

Willie McKemie wrote:
> No clue.  Logisystem hasn't told me.
> The first few photos here:
> http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/images/images40
> show the aftermath of the first failure.

It's hard to tell from the photos exactly what happened. It looks like
the fire was external to the controller (burned fans and wiring). I
can't see any holes in the controller case where fire may have gotten
out; but I can't see the right end (without the terminals) to see if it
is open.

> I understand that the controller voltage rating is for nominal pack
> voltage.  My nominal voltage is 3.2x45=144.  Peak voltage at end of
> charge is about 165v.

The part of the label I can read in the photo shows 750 amps, 120 volts.
Is that correct? If so, it may have failed from overvoltage.

> The controller is, I believe, isolated from charging voltage by the
> main contactor.

It should be. Though, if there is a precharge resistor across the main
contactor, you'd still have full charging voltage present on the controller.

> I've never noticed it being very hot.  It is cooled by two 12 v pancake
> fans as recommended.

I see the fans, but no heatsink for them to cool. The top cover of the
controller case just has a few shallow ribs. I don't know about this
controller, but most similar controllers require that you cool the
*bottom* of the case; that is where all the transistors and diodes are
mounted.

> I do have some tables printed for road speed, motor speed, and gear.  
> I've noted the motor speed that is supposed to be peak efficiency.  
> That's about 2500rpm as I recall.

Peak efficiency in a motor with an internal fan occurs at a low RPM,
where the fan is not working and so not consuming power. But it will
*overheat* if you run it at this point for long periods!

You need to run the motor fast enough so its internal fan is working.
This also lowers the motor current, which makes the controller run
cooler more efficient.

> All that "as I recall".  If we feel like shifting, we start in 2nd.  
> Else, 3rd or 4th.  Typically, shift to 4th from 3rd at about 40mph, if
> we shift from 4th to 5th it is 50 mph or more.

You should never be using 5th gear. Depending on your ratios, even 4th
may be pointless. You *want* the motor to be turning 3000-4000 RPM at
highway speeds.

Similarly, you should rarely if ever need 1st gear. It would let the
motor spin up to too *high* an RPM.

>> Do you have the current limit turned "wide open"

> Don't know.  The first 750 amp, I twiddled adjustments to try to get
> better performance.  The second 750 amp, I left at factory settings.  
> The 550 amp that failed in it's first two hours had not been twiddled;
> that one is on a 7" motor.

OK; so the failure is probably somewhere else.

>> Are you using a non-isolated charger?

> The main contactor should isolate the controller from the Zivan charger
> while charging.  The main contactor is actuated only when key is on AND
> throttle is depressed.

OK, the Zivans are isolated, so the controller isn't failing from AC
line transients.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Logisystems

Willie McKemie
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 02:38:19PM -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> It's hard to tell from the photos exactly what happened. It looks like
> the fire was external to the controller (burned fans and wiring). I
> can't see any holes in the controller case where fire may have gotten
> out; but I can't see the right end (without the terminals) to see if it
> is open.

The "back" end is non-metallic.  The covering material blew out and
flame was coming out that end; I snuffed it out with a rag.  All the
failures have resulted in the back end blowing or bulging out.
>
> The part of the label I can read in the photo shows 750 amps, 120 volts.
> Is that correct? If so, it may have failed from overvoltage.

No, it is 156v.
>
> I see the fans, but no heatsink for them to cool. The top cover of the
> controller case just has a few shallow ribs. I don't know about this
> controller, but most similar controllers require that you cool the
> *bottom* of the case; that is where all the transistors and diodes are
> mounted.

The Logisystem is an upside down Curtis.  The heat sink is the top.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  737 days 10 hours 01 minutes

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Re: Logisystems

Rick Beebe
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:25:32AM -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
>> Willie McKemie wrote:
>>> I've had some extraordinary bad luck the past few months...
>>> three Logisystem failures in about two months and probably less
>>> than 2,000 miles total.
>> As an engineer, I'd want to know more about the failures. What exactly
>> has failed in these controllers?
>
> No clue.  Logisystem hasn't told me.
> The first few photos here:
> http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/images/images40
> show the aftermath of the first failure.

Kinda looks like the one we saw blow at Bob Rice's house last summer.
It's in a fiberglass kit truck--a direct drive with, I believe, a Warp
11. They were giving rides. While turning around the the driveway the
truck lurched a few times and a plasma flame shot out the end of the
controller opposite where the wires are connected. Because there were a
bunch of people handy, we got the hood opened, the power disconnected
and the flames extinguished quickly. Still 15 minutes after the flames
were out the case was still hot enough to hiss if drops of water hit it.

--Rick

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Re: Logisystems

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Roger Heuckeroth
Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> Shouldn't the controller be out of the circuit while charging?

Yes, it should be. That doesn't mean it is! There are two situations to
worry about.

1. Your EV might be wired as Curtis and others sometimes show in
    their minimalist wiring diagrams -- only one main contactor,
    and a precharge resistor permanently wired across it.

    With this setup, the controller sees the full pack voltage all
    the time (through the precharge resistor). A 144v pack of lead
    acids can reach 2.58v/cell = 186v during an equalization charge;
    even more with a crude transformer-rectifier charger if there
    is a bad battery.

2. Even if you have a switch or relay that removes the precharge
    resistor (so the positive side of the pack has no path to the
    controller), there may be no negative side switch or contactor.

    Suppose you use a non-isolated charger (K&W, Russco, Manzanita
    PFC, home-made bad boy, etc). The AC powerline frequently has
    voltage spikes in excess of 1000v. If the pack as a whole spikes
    up to 1000v above ground, and pack minus connects to controller
    minus, then the controller's insulation to ground is stressed
    to this level. Many controllers have minimal insulation between
    their transistors and chassis ground. These spikes can arc over,
    and damage the insulation or other parts.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Logisystems

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie

On Dec 21, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:24:20AM -0800, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Willie, you would be an excellent candidate for the new Russco  
>> controller.
>> http://russcoev.com
>
> I'm all ears.  I don't see anything about it on your website.  I've
> been looking at Synkromotive, EVnetics, and Warp.  At the present  
> time,
> the Synkromotive requires some microsoft software for configuration.
> The EVnetics has an embedded web server and is configured via a  
> network
> cable.
>
> Incidentally, I queried you about a month ago about a charger.  When
> I got no reply, I bought elsewhere.  I believe I used your sonic.net
> address which is listed on your website.
>

You got something against Zilla.  Their drag race hardened, and as  
bullet=proof as there is.

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Re: Logisystems

Mike Willmon-3
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
You could alternatively order a Zilla 1K-LV now too ;-)
Mike


On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:29 AM , Willie McKemie wrote:

> .....
> I'm replacing that Logisystem 750amp with an EVnetics.  I believe the
> EVnetics does have an internal precharge resistor.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!

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Re: Logisystems

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie McKemie wrote:
> The "back" end is non-metallic.  The covering material blew out and
> flame was coming out that end; I snuffed it out with a rag.

Could you tell what was burning? I can't think of anything in a normal
controller that should support combustion.

> All the failures have resulted in the back end blowing or bulging out.

Bulging and blowouts makes me think that the capacitors failed. That
would imply either excessive input voltage, or excessive capacitor
temperature.

>> The part of the label I can read in the photo shows 750 amps, 120 volts.
>> Is that correct? If so, it may have failed from overvoltage.
> No, it is 156v.

OK, that wasn't it.

>> I see the fans, but no heatsink for them to cool.

> The Logisystem is an upside down Curtis.  The heat sink is the top.

That's a pretty small heatsink for a 750 amps controller. I'm leaning
toward Roger Stockton's theory -- that the controller overheated from
driving in too high a gear. This tiny heatsink would make it easy to
overheat.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Logisystems

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by Lee Hart

On Dec 21, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

> 2. Even if you have a switch or relay that removes the precharge
>    resistor (so the positive side of the pack has no path to the
>    controller), there may be no negative side switch or contactor.

Which I think is the case in most conversions.  I was only planning on  
1 contactor in mine.


>    Suppose you use a non-isolated charger (K&W, Russco, Manzanita
>    PFC, home-made bad boy, etc).

I was under the impression that Manzanita was isolated.  I guess I was  
wrong.

> The AC powerline frequently has
>    voltage spikes in excess of 1000v. If the pack as a whole spikes
>    up to 1000v above ground, and pack minus connects to controller
>    minus, then the controller's insulation to ground is stressed
>    to this level. Many controllers have minimal insulation between
>    their transistors and chassis ground. These spikes can arc over,
>    and damage the insulation or other parts.

Could you add a voltage spike snubber circuit to remove those spikes.  
If so, can you suggest one?

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Re: Logisystems

rodhower
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
By driving your vehicle in such a high gear, the PWM duty cycle would be in the mid range, 40-60% and the ripple current on the capacitors would very high as well as motor loop current.  I don't believe this control or the Curtis was designed to be operated in this mode for long periods of time.  I would guess the capacitors vented and spewed electrolyte within the control.  Soon after this event the MOSFET's failed 'short circus' until there is enough heating or sparks to catch something on fire.
Rod
--- On Mon, 12/21/09, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 4:29 PM
> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > The "back" end is non-metallic.  The covering
> material blew out and
> > flame was coming out that end; I snuffed it out with a
> rag.
>
> Could you tell what was burning? I can't think of anything
> in a normal
> controller that should support combustion.
>
> > All the failures have resulted in the back end blowing
> or bulging out.
>
> Bulging and blowouts makes me think that the capacitors
> failed. That
> would imply either excessive input voltage, or excessive
> capacitor
> temperature.
>
> >> The part of the label I can read in the photo
> shows 750 amps, 120 volts.
> >> Is that correct? If so, it may have failed from
> overvoltage.
> > No, it is 156v.
>
> OK, that wasn't it.
>
> >> I see the fans, but no heatsink for them to cool.
>
> > The Logisystem is an upside down Curtis.  The
> heat sink is the top.
>
> That's a pretty small heatsink for a 750 amps controller.
> I'm leaning
> toward Roger Stockton's theory -- that the controller
> overheated from
> driving in too high a gear. This tiny heatsink would make
> it easy to
> overheat.
> --
> Lee A. Hart        | Ring the
> bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N        | Forget
> the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377    | There is a crack in
> everything
> leeahart earthlink.net    | That's how the
> light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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123