Motor Idea

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
53 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Motor Idea

Jeff Shanab
What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large enough to
pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on the inside,
fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors and a shaft with
a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other and assemble it and
quiet easily un asemble it.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
CV joint axles to?  Taperlock adapters on both ends so they wouldn't
slip with adapters to off the shelf Honda CV axles?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:20
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] Motor Idea

What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large enough to
pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on the inside,
fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors and a shaft with
a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other and assemble it and
quiet easily un asemble it.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

ev
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
>How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
>CV joint axles to?  

It wouldn't go around corners very well without a differential.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
True.  Maybe the solution is just a one legger that we have seen on the
list already.  As long as the traction available is good enough.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

>How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could
>bolt CV joint axles to?

It wouldn't go around corners very well without a differential.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Hi-Torque Electric
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab

--- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow
> shaft large enough to
> pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little
> spline on the inside,
> fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two
> motors and a shaft with
> a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
> and assemble it and
> quiet easily un asemble it.

Hey Jeff

The problem is that the bore holes used in these
motors is just 1 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for
the 9's (from memory).  Boring out a hole through the
shaft would leave very little material left to keep
the armature where it's supposed to be (centered
inside).

I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter to
lets say a couple, three inches would change the
properties of the armatures as the laminations would
loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear from Lee
or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect the
armature if one were to increase the lamination hole
size while adding nothing to the diameter or length.

Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/ 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Jeff Major

Hi Jim,

Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used
by the magnetics.  Talking about the inner core of the
armature.  In fact, sometimes the shaft steel itself
is in the magnetic circuit.  Mostly in 2 pole motors,
not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the
armature core between the shaft and the slots was
called "depth below slots" back in my days of
magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel
in the frame between the poles.  You need it.

There are motors with big old holes all the way thru
the center.  Most of these will have pretty high pole
counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With more pole pairs, you
need less back iron and depth below slots.  But you
have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.

Regards,

Jeff M



--- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow
> > shaft large enough to
> > pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little
> > spline on the inside,
> > fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two
> > motors and a shaft with
> > a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
> > and assemble it and
> > quiet easily un asemble it.
>
> Hey Jeff
>
> The problem is that the bore holes used in these
> motors is just 1 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for
> the 9's (from memory).  Boring out a hole through
> the
> shaft would leave very little material left to keep
> the armature where it's supposed to be (centered
> inside).
>
> I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter
> to
> lets say a couple, three inches would change the
> properties of the armatures as the laminations would
> loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear from
> Lee
> or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect
> the
> armature if one were to increase the lamination hole
> size while adding nothing to the diameter or length.
>
> Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some type of clutch
arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
though so that the axle would turn corners easily.  Maybe just use a
differential pumpkin?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


Hi Jim,

Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the magnetics.
Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In fact, sometimes the
shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.  Mostly in 2 pole motors,
not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the armature core
between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
frame between the poles.  You need it.

There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center.  Most
of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With
more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots.  But you
have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.

Regards,

Jeff M



--- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large
> > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on
> > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors
> > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
> > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
>
> Hey Jeff
>
> The problem is that the bore holes used in these motors is just 1
> 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from memory).  Boring out
> a hole through the shaft would leave very little material left to keep

> the armature where it's supposed to be (centered inside).
>
> I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter to lets say a
> couple, three inches would change the properties of the armatures as
> the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear
> from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect the
> armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size while adding

> nothing to the diameter or length.
>
> Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>


       
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you
all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Bruce Weisenberger
This but it sounds like you are reinventing Netgains
Slip yolk and tail shaft assemblies. They end in a
universal joint that you attach to your drive axle to.
The tail shaft attaches to the motor spline. They have
it as part of their hybrid emis system to turn any
vehicle to a hybrid.  

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock
> adapters for the axle
> shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would
> believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some
> type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be
> needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily.
> Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is
> used by the magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In
> fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.
> Mostly in 2 pole motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the
> armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth
> below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side
> of the steel in the
> frame between the poles.  You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru
> the center.  Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12
> or 16 poles.  With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth
> below slots.  But you
> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
> --- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > What if the typical 9" was available with a
> hollow shaft large
> > > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through.
> A little spline on
> > > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you
> could take two motors
> > > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a
> threaded nut on the other
> > > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
> >
> > Hey Jeff
> >
> > The problem is that the bore holes used in these
> motors is just 1
> > 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from
> memory).  Boring out
> > a hole through the shaft would leave very little
> material left to keep
>
> > the armature where it's supposed to be (centered
> inside).
> >
> > I would suspect that increasing the shafts
> diameter to lets say a
> > couple, three inches would change the properties
> of the armatures as
> > the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.
> I'd like to hear
> > from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this
> might effect the
> > armature if one were to increase the lamination
> hole size while adding
>
> > nothing to the diameter or length.
> >
> > Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>        
>
________________________________________________________________________

> ____________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
> Business gives you
> all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Hi-Torque Electric
Jim Husted wrote:
> I'd like to hear from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might
> effect the armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size
> while adding nothing to the diameter or length.

I don't think a 2" or even a 3" shaft would make any detectable
difference on a 4-pole (or higher) motor. The magnetic field is going
"in" at 6 and 12 o'clock, and "out" at 3 and 9 o'clock, so it doesn't
even pass through the center where the shaft is.

Some motors even have lightening or cooling holes drilled through the
armature, parallel to and relatively close to the shaft. They just have
to leave enough iron so you don't neck down its cross sectional area as
the field goes from 12 to 9, 9 to 6, 6 to 3, and 3 to 12 o'clock.

Now, a 2-pole motor would be a different story.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
In reply to this post by Bruce Weisenberger
Cool!  I have heard of their EMIS systems but havent seen the motor part
of it.  Do they machine the ends for the yokes or is it an adapter that
fits over their current shafts?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 13:18
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

This but it sounds like you are reinventing Netgains Slip yolk and tail
shaft assemblies. They end in a universal joint that you attach to your
drive axle to.
The tail shaft attaches to the motor spline. They have it as part of
their hybrid emis system to turn any
vehicle to a hybrid.  

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily.
> Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the
> magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.
> Mostly in 2 pole motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in

> my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the

> frame between the poles.  You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center.  Most

> of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots.  But
> you have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
> --- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > What if the typical 9" was available with a
> hollow shaft large
> > > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through.
> A little spline on
> > > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you
> could take two motors
> > > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a
> threaded nut on the other
> > > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
> >
> > Hey Jeff
> >
> > The problem is that the bore holes used in these
> motors is just 1
> > 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from
> memory).  Boring out
> > a hole through the shaft would leave very little
> material left to keep
>
> > the armature where it's supposed to be (centered
> inside).
> >
> > I would suspect that increasing the shafts
> diameter to lets say a
> > couple, three inches would change the properties
> of the armatures as
> > the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.
> I'd like to hear
> > from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this
> might effect the
> > armature if one were to increase the lamination
> hole size while adding
>
> > nothing to the diameter or length.
> >
> > Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>        
>
________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you

> all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



       
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Here is a thought - to put the axle shafts through a hole would be
needed but in theory would NOT be an empty space.  The axles would be in
there which are steel so wouldn't the suspected loss of metal be put
right back in there?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 13:20
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

Jim Husted wrote:
> I'd like to hear from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might
> effect the armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size
> while adding nothing to the diameter or length.

I don't think a 2" or even a 3" shaft would make any detectable
difference on a 4-pole (or higher) motor. The magnetic field is going
"in" at 6 and 12 o'clock, and "out" at 3 and 9 o'clock, so it doesn't
even pass through the center where the shaft is.

Some motors even have lightening or cooling holes drilled through the
armature, parallel to and relatively close to the shaft. They just have
to leave enough iron so you don't neck down its cross sectional area as
the field goes from 12 to 9, 9 to 6, 6 to 3, and 3 to 12 o'clock.

Now, a 2-pole motor would be a different story.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Marty Hewes
In reply to this post by Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need for
gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in it's
more efficient operating RPM.  Also, width is a big issue with independant
suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints (reliability and
efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels?  You could even switch the
hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but I
suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily.  Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.  Mostly in 2 pole motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles.  You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center.  Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots.  But you
> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
> --- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large
>> > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on
>> > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors
>> > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
>> > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
>>
>> Hey Jeff
>>
>> The problem is that the bore holes used in these motors is just 1
>> 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from memory).  Boring out
>> a hole through the shaft would leave very little material left to keep
>
>> the armature where it's supposed to be (centered inside).
>>
>> I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter to lets say a
>> couple, three inches would change the properties of the armatures as
>> the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear
>> from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect the
>> armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size while adding
>
>> nothing to the diameter or length.
>>
>> Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
>>
>> Cya
>> Jim Husted
>> Hi-Torque Electric
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you
> all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
It has  been brought up before but most would answer back that you lose
a lot of efficiency by driving through hydraulic pumps and motors.  It
would really help though in situations where you wanted to make things
that were hybrid and could be driven by either an engine or a electric
motor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 14:37
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need
for gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in
it's more efficient operating RPM.  Also, width is a big issue with
independant suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints
(reliability and efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels?  You could even switch
the hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but
I suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily.  Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the
magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.  Mostly in 2 pole
motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles.  You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center.  Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots.  But
you

> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
> --- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large
>> > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on
>> > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors
>> > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
>> > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
>>
>> Hey Jeff
>>
>> The problem is that the bore holes used in these motors is just 1
>> 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from memory).  Boring out
>> a hole through the shaft would leave very little material left to
keep
>
>> the armature where it's supposed to be (centered inside).
>>
>> I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter to lets say a
>> couple, three inches would change the properties of the armatures as
>> the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear
>> from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect the
>> armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size while
adding

>
>> nothing to the diameter or length.
>>
>> Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
>>
>> Cya
>> Jim Husted
>> Hi-Torque Electric
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________

> ____________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you
> all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G

Jody,

Somewhat, but there would be additional air gaps and
the substitute steel would not be of desired magnetic
quality.  I'm not saying it couldn't be done.  I think
Ford did this on the EV Ranger.  But it is a design
constraint on the motor which needs to be considered.
Just drill out any old armature, and you're likely to
have problems.

Jeff


--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a thought - to put the axle shafts through a
> hole would be
> needed but in theory would NOT be an empty space.
> The axles would be in
> there which are steel so wouldn't the suspected loss
> of metal be put
> right back in there?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 13:20
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I'd like to hear from Lee or Jeff as to if or by
> how much this might
> > effect the armature if one were to increase the
> lamination hole size
> > while adding nothing to the diameter or length.
>
> I don't think a 2" or even a 3" shaft would make any
> detectable
> difference on a 4-pole (or higher) motor. The
> magnetic field is going
> "in" at 6 and 12 o'clock, and "out" at 3 and 9
> o'clock, so it doesn't
> even pass through the center where the shaft is.
>
> Some motors even have lightening or cooling holes
> drilled through the
> armature, parallel to and relatively close to the
> shaft. They just have
> to leave enough iron so you don't neck down its
> cross sectional area as
> the field goes from 12 to 9, 9 to 6, 6 to 3, and 3
> to 12 o'clock.
>
> Now, a 2-pole motor would be a different story.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

daelectric
In reply to this post by Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
I believe that this is how the Abrams M1 tank propels itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

It has  been brought up before but most would answer back that you lose
a lot of efficiency by driving through hydraulic pumps and motors.  It
would really help though in situations where you wanted to make things
that were hybrid and could be driven by either an engine or a electric
motor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 14:37
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need
for gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in
it's more efficient operating RPM.  Also, width is a big issue with
independant suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints
(reliability and efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels?  You could even switch
the hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but
I suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts?  The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width?  I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily.  Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the
magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature.  In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit.  Mostly in 2 pole
motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety.  The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism.  It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles.  You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center.  Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts.  8, 12 or 16 poles.  With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots.  But
you

> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
> --- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> --- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large
>> > enough to pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on
>> > the inside, fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors
>> > and a shaft with a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other
>> > and assemble it and quiet easily un asemble it.
>>
>> Hey Jeff
>>
>> The problem is that the bore holes used in these motors is just 1
>> 3/16th for the 8" and 1 3/8th" for the 9's (from memory).  Boring out
>> a hole through the shaft would leave very little material left to
keep
>
>> the armature where it's supposed to be (centered inside).
>>
>> I would suspect that increasing the shafts diameter to lets say a
>> couple, three inches would change the properties of the armatures as
>> the laminations would loose a lot of their mass.  I'd like to hear
>> from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might effect the
>> armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size while
adding

>
>> nothing to the diameter or length.
>>
>> Anyway that's my take on it (for now) lol.
>>
>> Cya
>> Jim Husted
>> Hi-Torque Electric
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________

> ____________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you
> all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Hi-Torque Electric
In reply to this post by Lee Hart

--- Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think a 2" or even a 3" shaft would make any
> detectable
> difference on a 4-pole (or higher) motor. The
> magnetic field is going
> "in" at 6 and 12 o'clock, and "out" at 3 and 9
> o'clock, so it doesn't
> even pass through the center where the shaft is.

Hey Jeff, Lee

Thanks for the input 8^)  Thses race freaks are never
satisfied ;^)  Only so much a 1 3/8 diameter shaft can
take and although to bore or hone out a pre-wound arm
wouldn't be fun, there is at least an option.

As always love your experience and posts 8^)

Hey Jeff, I hate cut and pastes, so you get no love
this round as I just grabbed Lee's and replied 8^P

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
Jody Dewey said >>> "How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
CV joint axles to? "

You must have a differential and in general a gear reduction beyond what the final drive normally provides. But that is an idea.

My design for an AC setup uses the hollow shaft idea and parts from an automatic to accept the final drive from a GM 4t60E HD tranny and uses the N-body car stock axles. Honda would be a minimal change.

I have bought the books and an old HT60E HD from the wrecking yard to disassemble for parts. I plan on designing the case and since the all the hard parts are available for the insides of the tranny aftermarket, i am not depending on GM for my parts.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
I would think it would be easier to just make a bracket for a regular 9"
ford axle and just stub it off without axle tubes.  Just make the axle
tubes 3 inches or so and weld the flanges close to the pumpkin.  Then
attach CV axles to the flanges.  That way you wouldn't need to
manufacture all sorts of parts for the HT60E and the aftermarket for a
9" is HUGE.  Also the ford differential is extremely strong and there
are positraction units available for it.  You could either mount the
electric motor directly to the pinion or mount it above the pintion and
connect them with a chain.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 8:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

Jody Dewey said >>> "How about just flanges on each end of say a 9"
motor that you could bolt CV joint axles to? "

You must have a differential and in general a gear reduction beyond what
the final drive normally provides. But that is an idea.

My design for an AC setup uses the hollow shaft idea and parts from an
automatic to accept the final drive from a GM 4t60E HD tranny and uses
the N-body car stock axles. Honda would be a minimal change.

I have bought the books and an old HT60E HD from the wrecking yard to
disassemble for parts. I plan on designing the case and since the all
the hard parts are available for the insides of the tranny aftermarket,
i am not depending on GM for my parts.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
I seriously doubt the motor shaft is part of the magnetic circuit, it
would indicate a very wasteful design. My worry was more what is the
largest hole thru a commutator that can be had?

While I hadn't considered doing this with a dc motor, I don't see why it
woudn't work. The problem is that a single ratio doesn't lend itself to
a single dc motor. I was thinking with the AC motor, I could just spin
it faster.

A lot of conversations talk about inline connection of dual 9's I think
in my rear drive car, i have a better idea. It has a chassis mounted
differential because it has independent rear suspension.  I have dreamed
of makeing my own box that  has a differential in it and instead of a
ring gear a dual roller chain sprocket. This goes up to two smaller
sprockets  for two 9" motors side by side in the fuel tank area. This
eliminates the 90 degree power robbing rear end but keeps the final
drive ratio. What I would want for this is 2 9" motors that have splined
shafts and flange mount, like big hydralic pump motors.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Motor Idea

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
"...re-inventing netgains..."

In idea only. One I had at least 10 years ago, gosh going on 20 years(yikes)

Useing the driveline scenario works great for pickups and large cars but
still turning the power 90 degrees thru a lossy hypoid gear set is
something I wanted to avoid.
Honda has the most effieient setup with crown and pinion, GM has most
compact with planetary gears on final drive.

I have this dream. It is of an entire car company making electric cars.
Every one of my designs fits in this imaginary car. Highly modular, open
standards at the electric,protocol, and mechanical interface level of
all modules. ( i just can't get Donald Trump to return my calls ;-)  )

one aspect of the design is that it takes 1 or 2 motor drive units and 1
or 2 battery modules.(also 1 of 3 bolt on body parts to make
fastback,sedan,wagon) If a motor drive unit is in front the a arms that
connect to this housing have ball joints, if it is in back it has blocks
(unless you order 4 wheel steering option. This is why the motor drive
unit design is so co-linear and low profile.

I feel eventually we must break out of the constraints the ICE put on
vehicle design.

I have 3 test mules available for this configuration. I have done some
research on what is needed to build an induction motor from scratch and
what the material costs would be. I think i will pull the bed off my
truck and drop a unit in back. It would bolt to the frame and provide
all the suspension necessary so the leaf springs and solid rear axle are
gone. Without the driveline I have a nice place for a battery box in
front of rear drive unit. as well as in engine bay under the "boot's "
false floor

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
123