Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

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Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

Pinetreeporsche
  About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959 Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass, mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill. The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone used a
 fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the list near me?
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

SteveS-5
Hi Chris,

I may be near you - Leesburg.

You may be more motocycle-like than car-like. I did a conversion of an
BMW R75 motorcycle using a 7" fork lift motor and lithiums. Works well
with the right gearing. Check the EV album and I'm sure you will find a
bunch of conversions that used fork lift motors of various kinds  for
various vehicles.

I'm thinking of going to a hub motor, so my setup my be available......

-Steve



On 8/26/2012 6:26 PM, L. Chris Hager wrote:

>    About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959 Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass, mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill. The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone used a
>   fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the list near me?
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

Cruisin
In reply to this post by Pinetreeporsche
If you are thinking of the AC-50, don't pay $4500 as I sell them for $4100. Also, I would probably suggest the AC-35 which is a little smaller and cheaper. Unless you are buying less than 100ah cells or less than 72v, you are going to be adding more than 200lbs to your car in batteries. A 21kw cell pack is about 480lbs without the racks to retain them.
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

harry henderson
In reply to this post by Pinetreeporsche
if you look carefully through the thread you'll see that the AC50 or one of the smaller versions was suggested:

http://evolveelectrics.com/High%20Performance%20AC%20Motor.html

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


--- On Sun, 8/26/12, L. Chris Hager <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: L. Chris Hager <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 4:26 PM
>   About ten days ago I posted a
> request for suggestions for a motor-controller combination
> for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959 Berkeley.  The
> car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass,
> mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only
> about 900. The only suggestion I got was for the AC50, which
> puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill. The car came with an under
> 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric motor gets
> its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO-
> the prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a
> website of a guy who used a fork-lift motor, I think an
> 8-inch instead of the more typical 9-inch (his whole
> conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of
> used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up
> runs).  Since old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard
> to tell the hp, but probably all of them are in the 15 to 25
> range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone used a
>  fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid
> pump)? What controller/battery monitoring system is
> appropriate?  At what amperage/ how many batteries?  Thx,
>   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the list
> near me?
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

Mike Beem
In reply to this post by Pinetreeporsche
As for micro car conversons, I have been through several motor  choices
with this EV:  http://www.evalbum.com/361
It had a 400 amp aircraft starter/generator when I got it; the details of
that motor's demise (and the homebuilt contactor controller) were in a
thread last week concerning emergency shut offs. The second motor (the one
still shown in the Photo Album) spontaneously disassembled at 50 mph on its
way to an appointment with the State Smog Control Referee (another great
story of the DMV and incredible stupidity--how do you "smog" a car with no
exhaust?)
The current motor/controller combo is an ADC 4002 with Alltrax AXE 4855
(500 amps)
Batteries are four very large 12v AGM's made for power supplies.
This is much more power than the Goggo needs, since the "large" engine
supplied with this model for the US market was 300cc (2 cycle). I have to
be very careful not to destroy the clutch.
Michael B

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:26 PM, L. Chris Hager
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>   About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a
> motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959
> Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass,
> mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only
> suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill.
> The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric
> motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the
> prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who
> used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical
> 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of
> used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since
> old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably
> all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone
> used a
>  fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What
> controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how
> many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the
> list near me?
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Pinetreeporsche
I didn't recommend an AC-50. I gave you my experience with a car of similar
weight and my SepEx setup. You would probably do just fine with a SepEx
setup if if you got a good Sevcon controller like a PP784 or an equivalent
quality controller and call D&D Motor Systems to see what motor they
recommend. If you just want a series motor there are many options out
there. Remember that a controller that gets dialed back from its max
ratings has the potential to last longer.  Just because a particular
controller can put out more than you need doesn't mean it isn't a viable
candidate.

On Sunday, August 26, 2012, L. Chris Hager wrote:

>   About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a
> motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959
> Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass,
> mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only
> suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill.
> The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric
> motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the
> prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who
> used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical
> 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of
> used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since
> old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably
> all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone
> used a
>  fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What
> controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how
> many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the
> list near me?
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--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

Justin Southam
In reply to this post by Pinetreeporsche
Hi Chris,

The ice you are going to replace is high revving and low torque. In the DIY ev world series DC motors are the typical starting point. Your ice wouldn't appear to be a good match to a series motor but i think its possible and much cheaper than the ac option albeit with less features. Current makes torque and voltage makes rpm. To simulate your ice you would current limit and over volt your motor.

I'd suggest a ADC A00-4009 6.7" motor. I did look at the 5.5"  ADC but i think that is too small. The EVParts website says the motor is 36v but says its the replacement for the A89 which was spec'd 36-72v. Many people on this list are running series motors above, and some well above their voltage ratings. 170 volts is accepted as a rule of thumb limit. I'm not suggesting you go that high.

A chart for the A00-4009 shows that at the motors continuous rating of 102 amps the motor makes 9.5 lb-ft of torque. At 235 amps that rises to 25 lb-ft. Even this amount of torque may be excessive for what is likely a quite fragile drive train. Others on the list will be able to comment on the Max safe or Max continuous rpm for the motor.

A Curtis 1221 would allow for a 120 battery pack and has adjustable current limit. A limit of only 200 amps would provide more power than the original ice.

A more expensive controller could provide output voltage and rpm limiting. This could allow for a higher voltage pack without further overvolting the motor. A high voltage pack would allow you to use lower ah cells in your pack.

For your consideration.

Regards,

Justin

"L. Chris Hager" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959 Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass, mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill. The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone used a
> fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the list near me?
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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

David Nelson-5
FWIW, an engineer at D&D Motor Systems told me that their 6.7" motors
had a maximum safe RPM of 6000. This is assuming that the motor is not
and has not been overheated. In that case I know that 5500rpm will
lift comm bars :(. I now have a longer motor and my Gizmo is better
for it. :)


On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:55 AM, Justin Southam
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> The ice you are going to replace is high revving and low torque. In the DIY ev world series DC motors are the typical starting point. Your ice wouldn't appear to be a good match to a series motor but i think its possible and much cheaper than the ac option albeit with less features. Current makes torque and voltage makes rpm. To simulate your ice you would current limit and over volt your motor.
>
> I'd suggest a ADC A00-4009 6.7" motor. I did look at the 5.5"  ADC but i think that is too small. The EVParts website says the motor is 36v but says its the replacement for the A89 which was spec'd 36-72v. Many people on this list are running series motors above, and some well above their voltage ratings. 170 volts is accepted as a rule of thumb limit. I'm not suggesting you go that high.
>
> A chart for the A00-4009 shows that at the motors continuous rating of 102 amps the motor makes 9.5 lb-ft of torque. At 235 amps that rises to 25 lb-ft. Even this amount of torque may be excessive for what is likely a quite fragile drive train. Others on the list will be able to comment on the Max safe or Max continuous rpm for the motor.
>
> A Curtis 1221 would allow for a 120 battery pack and has adjustable current limit. A limit of only 200 amps would provide more power than the original ice.
>
> A more expensive controller could provide output voltage and rpm limiting. This could allow for a higher voltage pack without further overvolting the motor. A high voltage pack would allow you to use lower ah cells in your pack.
>
> For your consideration.
>
> Regards,
>
> Justin
>
> "L. Chris Hager" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>  About ten days ago I posted a request for suggestions for a motor-controller combination for conversion of my (very small/light) 1959 Berkeley.  The car weighs under 700 pounds (aluminum and fiberglass, mostly); with Lithium batteries should still weigh only about 900. The only suggestion I got was for the AC50, which puts out 50 hp-- severe overkill. The car came with an under 20hp ic motorcycle 2-stroke, and as an electric motor gets its torque up quick, 20 or less should do the job.  ALSO- the prices for new AC50 are $4500 or more.    I found a website of a guy who used a fork-lift motor, I think an 8-inch instead of the more typical 9-inch (his whole conversion of a Geo Metro cost him $1000-- with lots of used parts, incl older lead batteries for the first power-up runs).  Since old fork-lifts had different motors, its hard to tell the hp, but probably all of them are in the 15 to 25 range-- plenty for my Berkeley.  Has anyone used a
>> fork-lift motor (I guess they powered the hydraulic fluid pump)? What controller/battery monitoring system is appropriate?  At what amperage/ how many batteries?  Thx,   Chris, in the VA suburbs of DC--  is anyone on the list near me?
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--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com
http://www.levforum.com

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Re: Motor for very light car revisited-- not an AC50, I hope

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Justin Southam
Series motor positives :

- motor is usually cheaper
- controller is simpler and cheaper
- lots of torque at breakaway

Series motor negatives :

- can overspeed and self-destruct if run without load
- cheap controllers usually have no runaway detection - failure is full on!
- regenerative braking is usually impractical
- torque curve very different from ICE's (requires different gearshifting)

AC induction positives :

- regen usually provided by default
- controllers usually have more features
- torque curve somewhat more similar to ICE
- very unlikely to overspeed
- very unlikely to runaway (controller failure usually just stops it)

AC induction negatives :

- more expensive (controller and motor) per kW of power
- tends to require higher battery voltage (though not always)
- motor and controller must be matched, usually at the factory

In this comparison, Sep-ex DC scores similar to AC induction, but it's
usually cheaper. It also doesn't have the inherent regen or runaway
protection of AC induction (these features are available, however).  Sep-ex
also requires some controller/motor matching, but this isn't as critical as
with induction.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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