Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

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Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Mark Warner
Long-time lurker here. For those that might be interested, I've begun a new
conversion project. It's a 1985 VF500 Honda Interceptor. I'm keeping an
online journal of the process, which is just getting off the ground now.
The link to the blog is here:  http://evmotorcycle.blogspot.com/

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Cheers!
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

damon henry

Hi Mark,
I took a look at your blog and I have a few pieces of advice from my ev motorcycle experience (http://www.evalbum.com/497).  First is the voltage.  I see you are planning on a 72 volt system which I think is perfect.  This not only gives you a good top speed (probably 60 - 80 mph depending on your gear ratios), but a good selection of affordable off the shelf components to work with.  I would also stick with a motor that weighs at least 50 lbs.  I have been very happy with my 6.7" ADC motor.  There are lighter weight motors that seem like they are up to the job, and with proper engineering will probably work.  It's been my experience however, that people who have went with lighter weight motors have had a much higher rate of unhappiness than those that stick with something a bit heavier.  Motor weight is a pretty good indication of how much power a motor can sustain over a period of time.  This is primarily because a motor with more mass, can sink more heat before bad things!
  start to happen.   Finally, a motorcycle is cramped and can be difficult to stuff all the pieces into. Keep your drive sprocket as close to the original position as possible.  This means either mounting your motor so that the shaft lines up where the old drive shaft did, or mounting a jack shaft in that position and running a second chain and sprocket from your motor to your jack shaft.
Overall, a motorcycle is a great EV project as it is much simpler than a car/truck, and the cost is substantially less.  Good luck!
damon

> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:24:43 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
>
> Long-time lurker here. For those that might be interested, I've begun a new
> conversion project. It's a 1985 VF500 Honda Interceptor. I'm keeping an
> online journal of the process, which is just getting off the ground now.
> The link to the blog is here:  http://evmotorcycle.blogspot.com/
>
> Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Cheers!
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Mark Warner
In reply to this post by Mark Warner
Good advice, Damon. Thanks.

One of the options I'm considering is mounting the motor directly to the
swing arm. For instance, something like the April 5th posting on Tony H's
blog here: http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2010/04/

Do any of you guys have experience with this type of mounting? I'm
surprised I don't see it used more often. It seems like it would free up
more space in the frame for battery mounting, etc. Seems simply and elegant
(although the big motor hanging off the side of the swing arm might be
visually offensive to some.... dunno.)
-Mark


Message: 6
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:57:47 +0000
From: damon henry <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
To: EV List <[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi Mark,
I took a look at your blog and I have a few pieces of advice from my ev
motorcycle experience (http://www.evalbum.com/497).  First is the voltage.
 I see you are planning on a 72 volt system which I think is perfect.  This
not only gives you a good top speed (probably 60 - 80 mph depending on your
gear ratios), but a good selection of affordable off the shelf components
to work with.  I would also stick with a motor that weighs at least 50 lbs.
 I have been very happy with my 6.7" ADC motor.  There are lighter weight
motors that seem like they are up to the job, and with proper engineering
will probably work.  It's been my experience however, that people who have
went with lighter weight motors have had a much higher rate of unhappiness
than those that stick with something a bit heavier.  Motor weight is a
pretty good indication of how much power a motor can sustain over a period
of time.  This is primarily because a motor with more mass, can sink more
heat before bad things!
 start to happen.   Finally, a motorcycle is cramped and can be difficult
to stuff all the pieces into. Keep your drive sprocket as close to the
original position as possible.  This means either mounting your motor so
that the shaft lines up where the old drive shaft did, or mounting a jack
shaft in that position and running a second chain and sprocket from your
motor to your jack shaft.
Overall, a motorcycle is a great EV project as it is much simpler than a
car/truck, and the cost is substantially less.  Good luck!
damon
> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:24:43 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
>
> Long-time lurker here. For those that might be interested, I've begun a
new
> conversion project. It's a 1985 VF500 Honda Interceptor. I'm keeping an
> online journal of the process, which is just getting off the ground now.
> The link to the blog is here:  http://evmotorcycle.blogspot.com/
>
> Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Cheers!
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|
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

damon henry

The downside to mounting the motor directly to the swingarm is that you are adding unsprung weight to the rear wheel which has a negative effect on handling.  Specifically, the rear wheel will have a tougher time staying in contact with the road surface while going over bumps.  Also, the motor will take the full shock of any bumps.  I do not have any personal experience with this however, and the trade off of freeing up space under the rider may be worth it???
damon

> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:34:03 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
>
> Good advice, Damon. Thanks.
>
> One of the options I'm considering is mounting the motor directly to the
> swing arm. For instance, something like the April 5th posting on Tony H's
> blog here: http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2010/04/
>
> Do any of you guys have experience with this type of mounting? I'm
> surprised I don't see it used more often. It seems like it would free up
> more space in the frame for battery mounting, etc. Seems simply and elegant
> (although the big motor hanging off the side of the swing arm might be
> visually offensive to some.... dunno.)
> -Mark
>
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:57:47 +0000
> From: damon henry <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
> To: EV List <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hi Mark,
> I took a look at your blog and I have a few pieces of advice from my ev
> motorcycle experience (http://www.evalbum.com/497).  First is the voltage.
>  I see you are planning on a 72 volt system which I think is perfect.  This
> not only gives you a good top speed (probably 60 - 80 mph depending on your
> gear ratios), but a good selection of affordable off the shelf components
> to work with.  I would also stick with a motor that weighs at least 50 lbs.
>  I have been very happy with my 6.7" ADC motor.  There are lighter weight
> motors that seem like they are up to the job, and with proper engineering
> will probably work.  It's been my experience however, that people who have
> went with lighter weight motors have had a much higher rate of unhappiness
> than those that stick with something a bit heavier.  Motor weight is a
> pretty good indication of how much power a motor can sustain over a period
> of time.  This is primarily because a motor with more mass, can sink more
> heat before bad things!
>  start to happen.   Finally, a motorcycle is cramped and can be difficult
> to stuff all the pieces into. Keep your drive sprocket as close to the
> original position as possible.  This means either mounting your motor so
> that the shaft lines up where the old drive shaft did, or mounting a jack
> shaft in that position and running a second chain and sprocket from your
> motor to your jack shaft.
> Overall, a motorcycle is a great EV project as it is much simpler than a
> car/truck, and the cost is substantially less.  Good luck!
> damon
> > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:24:43 -0700
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
> >
> > Long-time lurker here. For those that might be interested, I've begun a
> new
> > conversion project. It's a 1985 VF500 Honda Interceptor. I'm keeping an
> > online journal of the process, which is just getting off the ground now.
> > The link to the blog is here:  http://evmotorcycle.blogspot.com/
> >
> > Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Cheers!
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

fred ungewitter
In reply to this post by Mark Warner
I own a Gizmo EV (three-wheel motorcycle) which has the motor mounted to the swing-arm assembly, but it is mounted directly above the pivot of the arm. This effectively removes the unsprung weight, while keeping belt tensioning requirements to a minimum.


Original Message: 5
From: damon henry <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway


The downside to mounting the motor directly to the swingarm is that you are adding unsprung weight to the rear wheel which has a negative effect on handling.  Specifically, the rear wheel will have a tougher time staying in contact with the road surface while going over bumps.  Also, the motor will take the full shock of any bumps.  I do not have any personal experience with this however, and the trade off of freeing up space under the rider may be worth it???
damon

End of Original Message: 5
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Chris Tromley
In reply to this post by Mark Warner
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Mark Warner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Good advice, Damon. Thanks.
>
> One of the options I'm considering is mounting the motor directly to the
> swing arm. For instance, something like the April 5th posting on Tony H's
> blog here: http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2010/04/
>
> Do any of you guys have experience with this type of mounting? I'm
> surprised I don't see it used more often. It seems like it would free up
> more space in the frame for battery mounting, etc. Seems simply and elegant
> (although the big motor hanging off the side of the swing arm might be
> visually offensive to some.... dunno.)
> -Mark


Hanging the motor on the swing arm is hard on the motor and hard on your
heiney.  The motor was designed to be isolated from the road by the
vehicle's suspension, not subjected to hammering into potholes and over
debris.  When you add a 20+ lbs motor to a suspension member it hits those
obstacles harder.  The result is a harsher ride and reduced capability to
follow road variations.  Fred's idea of mounting very near the pivot is a
good one, but most motorcycles don't allow you to do that.

And as Damon said, the lighter axial permag-style motor is much better
suited to smaller, lighter motorcycles.  If you mount it to a heavy bike
and/or run it hard or at continuous high speed, you'd better have done your
homework.  Otherwise heat-related failures are a significant possibility.
 Bite the bullet and mount a series DC motor.  You'll be glad you did.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
https://evalbum.com/274
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by fred ungewitter
If the motor was mounted on the swing arm but with its COG directly above the pivot axis you would have the best of both worlds:- minimal effect of motor weight (as it is loading the arm both +vely and -vely in equal amounts each side of the pivot) and constant drive belt tension.  You could mount the motor on a plate mounted to the arm if needed, obviously leaving enough gap for the arm movement relative to the frame.  Hope that's clear.

MW


On 30 Mar 2012, at 22:00, fred wrote:

> I own a Gizmo EV (three-wheel motorcycle) which has the motor mounted to the swing-arm assembly, but it is mounted directly above the pivot of the arm. This effectively removes the unsprung weight, while keeping belt tensioning requirements to a minimum.
>
>
> Original Message: 5
> From: damon henry <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
>
>
> The downside to mounting the motor directly to the swingarm is that you are adding unsprung weight to the rear wheel which has a negative effect on handling.  Specifically, the rear wheel will have a tougher time staying in contact with the road surface while going over bumps.  Also, the motor will take the full shock of any bumps.  I do not have any personal experience with this however, and the trade off of freeing up space under the rider may be worth it???
> damon
>


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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Cor van de Water
I don't think it is important if the CoG is *above* the pivot,
the main important consideration is that the motor is
as close as possible to the pivot point.
(there is a difference in static loading but the dynamic
forces of swing arm movement needing to throw the motor
around are much more important, hence the importance of the
reduction of the arm=distance between pivot and motor)
If you can't mount the motor on the swing are then the next
mechanically simple solution (no adjustments with swingarm
movement) would be a jack shaft at the pivot point and the
motor running a belt/chain to the jack shaft, which again
has its own belt/chain to the rear wheel.
This can also help to give the large reduction that you
typically need from a smallish (high RPM) motor to the
large (low RPM) rear wheel, to avoid a 100+ tooth sprocket,
by dividing the reduction in two steps motor-jack shaft-wheel.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 2:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

If the motor was mounted on the swing arm but with its COG directly
above the pivot axis you would have the best of both worlds:- minimal
effect of motor weight (as it is loading the arm both +vely and -vely in
equal amounts each side of the pivot) and constant drive belt tension.
You could mount the motor on a plate mounted to the arm if needed,
obviously leaving enough gap for the arm movement relative to the frame.
Hope that's clear.

MW


On 30 Mar 2012, at 22:00, fred wrote:

> I own a Gizmo EV (three-wheel motorcycle) which has the motor mounted
to the swing-arm assembly, but it is mounted directly above the pivot of
the arm. This effectively removes the unsprung weight, while keeping
belt tensioning requirements to a minimum.
>
>
> Original Message: 5
> From: damon henry <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway
>
>
> The downside to mounting the motor directly to the swingarm is that
you are adding unsprung weight to the rear wheel which has a negative
effect on handling.  Specifically, the rear wheel will have a tougher
time staying in contact with the road surface while going over bumps.
Also, the motor will take the full shock of any bumps.  I do not have
any personal experience with this however, and the trade off of freeing
up space under the rider may be worth it???
> damon
>


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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Mark Warner
Wow, good discussion and points in this thread.

FWIW, I contacted the writer of the blog I mentioned earlier in my original
post ( April 5th posting on http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2010/04/),
and this is what he wrote back yesterday:

As for mounting the motor on the swing arm, I would recommend using an Agni
95R motor instead of the Perm motor I used.  keeping an eye on the amperage
rating is important when operating as not to destroy the motor. This route
is good for an average performance / commuter bike design. Having the extra
24 lbs on the swing arm didn't really effect handling or balance.
 Advantages are that the motor stays in a cool air flowing environment to
maximize heat dissipation, and that the chain stays in a constant tension
because it's not effected by the moving swing arm making the chain distance
longer or shorter. The disadvantage is that it's a small motor will usually
will not yield the performance of a larger AC induction motor, and that
tipping the bike over could mean destroying a $1200 motor.


-Mark
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Re: Motorcycle Conversion Project Underway

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
On 3/31/2012 3:40 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> I don't think it is important if the CoG is *above* the pivot,
> the main important consideration is that the motor is
> as close as possible to the pivot point.

It's actually a fairly complex problem. Besides the obvious dead weight
of the motor, there is also the motor's rotational inertia to consider.

First, think of the motor as a simple dead weight. Attaching it to the
swing arm will have two effects:

a) Vertical motion: Does the motor's center of mass move up/down as the
swing arm moves up/down? If so, it alters the spring/mass of the
suspension. The greater the weight, the stronger the spring and shock
absorber must be to control the bounce and rebound.

Worst case (from a suspension and handling point of view) is with the
motor right in line with the wheel (a wheel motor).

b) Horizontal motion. Does the motor move horizontally as the swing arm
moves? This won't be as bad, but the extra mass of the motor still slows
down the swing arm's response when you hit a bump.

Minimize this by putting the motor centerline as close to the pivot
point's centerline as possible. Ideally, the motor would be *between*
the two swing arm pivot points.

Second, there is the rotational intertia of the motor. Both from the
entire motor, and from just the rotating armature.

a) The spinning armature is the worst problem. There is likely to be a
gear/belt/chain reduction between motor and wheel. Its ratio magnifies
the effect of motor inertia. When you hit a bump or pothole, the wheel
has to travel farther than the bike as a whole. The wheel has to
momentarily rotate faster on the way down, and then slower on the way
up. The rotational inertia of the armature fights these speed changes,
encouraging the wheel to lose traction.

This is reduced by minimizing the rotor inertia, and minimizing the gear
ratio between wheel and motor. But these are generally being forced by
other concerns. Sometimes you can also provide some sort of compliant
coupling; for example, rubber coupler or chain with tensioners.

b) The motor's mass as a whole has rotational inertia, too. Even if you
locate it right in line with the swing arm's pivot point, this inertia
still makes the suspension respond slower.
--
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
        -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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