NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

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NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

ve3hsc
All I wanted to do is get an electric car and run it off
my electric solar panels (5.2KW's) at my home.

Off the electrical grid and off the gas / diesel grid.
Sound's good to me, how about you.

GUESS WHAT.!!!! not in our Canada.!!!
 
If I buy a NEW 2008 car from a car dealer and convert it
to run on Electricity the auto insurance Company's that
I have called, that's 15 so far, Have told me we WILL NOT
insurance this electric car, it is a "modified vehicle"
and we do not insure "modified vehicle's".

 BUT wait it get's BETTER.

                  Government of Canada.
The Transport Canada ecoAUTO Rebate Program encourages
Canadians to buy new fuel-efficient vehicles. This program
offers rebates from $1000 to $2000.
Your car or truck must be on A list of eligible vehicles
for the 2006, 2007 and 2008 model years. There is NOT one
electric car on the list so I called and asked.
The answer I got  "SORRY" not on the list NO rebate,
Electric cars built or converted are NOT eligible for the
Transport Canada ecoAUTO Rebate Program.

BUT wait it get's BETTER.

                  Government of Ontario.
Ontario Ministry of Revenue has Vehicles Powered by
Alternative Fuels rebate program. This program
offers rebates from $1000 to $2000 to vehicles that operate
or are converted to operate on an alternative fuel.
 * $1,000 for vehicles powered by any other alternative fuel
 * $2,000 for HEVs delivered to purchasers after March 23, 2006
          and before April 1, 2012.

  So wait a minute, you mean to tell me that you'll
give me $2000 if I buy a gas or diesel HEV car but I only
get $1000 if I Buy or Convert to Electric Only. Well I called
and YES that's what it means.

 Remember I told you I have 5.2KW's of solar panels at my House.
 After 3 or so years I am still not HOOKED up to the grid.

  Why you ask.?

 For the same Reasons I can't seem to get an electric car.
       The Government(s) and utility company(s)
 It's the same type of story.

   God help US all.!!!!


    Scott.......................

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Lee Hart
[hidden email] wrote:
> All I wanted to do is get an electric car and run it off my electric
> solar panels (5.2KW's) at my home... but I can't seem to get an
> electric car...  Insurance companies... The Government... utility
> company(s)... It's the same type of story. God help US all!

The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
permission." In other words, don't ask the government, auto companies,
or utility companies unless you want to be told, "No!"

Go ahead and convert it to electric yourself. Don't tell them you
converted it. Just register it and drive it exactly like every other
vehicle. If you do a competent job (and folks on this list can help you
do that), it will work just fine. Stay within the GVWR, bolt down the
batteries, cover all the electrical terminals; that sort of thing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Paul Wujek-2
Sorry Lee,

he can't do that because his car will fail at its first *Drive Clean*
inspection.

So he can get at best 2 years usage from the car before he's hosed (that
is if he gets the car inspected, registers it for 2 years, and then does
the conversion immediately).

Lee Hart wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>  
>> All I wanted to do is get an electric car and run it off my electric
>> solar panels (5.2KW's) at my home... but I can't seem to get an
>> electric car...  Insurance companies... The Government... utility
>> company(s)... It's the same type of story. God help US all!
>>    
>
> The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
> permission." In other words, don't ask the government, auto companies,
> or utility companies unless you want to be told, "No!"
>
> Go ahead and convert it to electric yourself. Don't tell them you
> converted it. Just register it and drive it exactly like every other
> vehicle. If you do a competent job (and folks on this list can help you
> do that), it will work just fine. Stay within the GVWR, bolt down the
> batteries, cover all the electrical terminals; that sort of thing.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  


--
Paul Wujek   ([hidden email])
http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwujek

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by ve3hsc
Talk to a local insurance agent of an insurance company
that you like, tell him that you won't modify the weight
or any of the safety related things like brakes, just
swap out the engine for an electric motor and the car
should perform the same after as before.

When I sat down with my local Farmers insurance agent,
he also quickly figured out that there is no "USElectricar"
brand in his files, but the original VIN of the car still
referred back to the Chevrolet S10 that was used for the
conversion and after he stole a glance at the truck itself
he happily insured me for a 4-banger 2-wheel drive S10 and
since I only wanted liability insurance, the rate was very
good.
Now, if you want to insure the *value* of the EV, that is
another story, but I recommend to go to an agent and
explain what you want to do.

Too bad that the bureacracy has not caught up to the EV
and you can't get anything better than the same rebate
as if you were converting to Ethanol or LPG or so.

Soon we will see the systems change, but it will go faster when
we help push, by being out there and driving what we consider
the solution to most problems of the dinosaur technology.

Happy grinning soon,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

All I wanted to do is get an electric car and run it off my electric solar panels (5.2KW's) at my home.

Off the electrical grid and off the gas / diesel grid.
Sound's good to me, how about you.

GUESS WHAT.!!!! not in our Canada.!!!
 
If I buy a NEW 2008 car from a car dealer and convert it to run on Electricity the auto insurance Company's that I have called, that's 15 so far, Have told me we WILL NOT insurance this electric car, it is a "modified vehicle"
and we do not insure "modified vehicle's".

 BUT wait it get's BETTER.

                  Government of Canada.
The Transport Canada ecoAUTO Rebate Program encourages Canadians to buy new fuel-efficient vehicles. This program offers rebates from $1000 to $2000.
Your car or truck must be on A list of eligible vehicles for the 2006, 2007 and 2008 model years. There is NOT one electric car on the list so I called and asked.
The answer I got  "SORRY" not on the list NO rebate, Electric cars built or converted are NOT eligible for the Transport Canada ecoAUTO Rebate Program.

BUT wait it get's BETTER.

                  Government of Ontario.
Ontario Ministry of Revenue has Vehicles Powered by Alternative Fuels rebate program. This program offers rebates from $1000 to $2000 to vehicles that operate or are converted to operate on an alternative fuel.
 * $1,000 for vehicles powered by any other alternative fuel
 * $2,000 for HEVs delivered to purchasers after March 23, 2006
          and before April 1, 2012.

  So wait a minute, you mean to tell me that you'll give me $2000 if I buy a gas or diesel HEV car but I only get $1000 if I Buy or Convert to Electric Only. Well I called and YES that's what it means.

 Remember I told you I have 5.2KW's of solar panels at my House.
 After 3 or so years I am still not HOOKED up to the grid.

  Why you ask.?

 For the same Reasons I can't seem to get an electric car.
       The Government(s) and utility company(s)  It's the same type of story.

   God help US all.!!!!


    Scott.......................

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by ve3hsc
Please don't take offense, Scott, but I think you might be over-reacting a
bit.

First, we have Canadian members of this list who DO have EVs and who DO have
insurance.  I could be wrong, of course, but I suspect you're just not
asking the right agents the right way.  Maybe some of our Canadian
correspondents could forward to you (privately, off-list) the names and
contact info for their agents.

Second, it sounds like your rebate program isn't structured for EVs.  That
could be because there aren't any (or very few) EVs offered for sale nor are
there many likely purchasers.  It's not a conspiracy; it's just a matter of
the powers-that-be putting their rebate money where it's going to do the
most good.

It's nice if the rebates help pay for your EV, but if they don't .... well,
how badly do you want one?  ;-)

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Andre' Blanchard-2
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
At 03:59 PM 5/28/2008, you wrote:

>Too bad that the bureacracy has not caught up to the EV
>and you can't get anything better than the same rebate
>as if you were converting to Ethanol or LPG or so.
>
>Soon we will see the systems change, but it will go faster when
>we help push, by being out there and driving what we consider
>the solution to most problems of the dinosaur technology.
>
>Happy grinning soon,
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

I think you got that backward, the bureacracy has now caught up.
__________
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.


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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Lock Hughes
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
--- EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe some of our Canadian
> correspondents could forward to you (privately, off-list) the names
> and contact info for their agents.

Some Ontario drivers here:
http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Ontario
tks
Lock


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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Paul Wujek-2
 >> The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
 >> permission."

Paul Wujek wrote:
> Sorry Lee,
> he can't do that because his car will fail at its first *Drive Clean*
> inspection.
>
> So he can get at best 2 years usage from the car before he's hosed (that
> is if he gets the car inspected, registers it for 2 years, and then does
> the conversion immediately).

Hmm; that's unfortunate. If it were me, I'd get copies of the
regulations and play "lawyer" to try to find a loophole. Or contact my
provincial representative, to see what he suggests. Be very polite, but
insistent. There is *always* a way; if not through the front door, then
through the back door.

A member of our local MN EAA club has a Swiss Twike he wanted to
license. The state DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles) refused -- they have no
category for an electric- and pedal-powered hybrid, and took the
attitude that "anything not mandatory is forbidden." He had to go to his
state representative, who called the head of the DMV, who wrote an
executive order saying "this vehicle is legal to drive". He says he
loves the look on a policeman's face when he gets pulled over and the
cop runs the VIN#, and gets back a personal note from the head of the
DMV to let him go. :-)

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
It wasn't for an EV, but I had a small school bus that I turned into an RV,
and my insurance company refused to insure a commercial or modified
vehicle.  I took pictures of it and went to a real live human insurance
agent for a different company, and he said he'd take a look.  Went and saw
the actual vehicle, got a weight slip to show it was still within the GWV
from when it was a school bus, and he insured it as an RV, no problem.  I
think one of the keys is to do it in person instead of over the
phone/internet where they can't see what you actually have to assure them
it's not that weird.

Z

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Talk to a local insurance agent of an insurance company
> that you like, tell him that you won't modify the weight
> or any of the safety related things like brakes, just
> swap out the engine for an electric motor and the car
> should perform the same after as before.
>
> When I sat down with my local Farmers insurance agent,
> he also quickly figured out that there is no "USElectricar"
> brand in his files, but the original VIN of the car still
> referred back to the Chevrolet S10 that was used for the
> conversion and after he stole a glance at the truck itself
> he happily insured me for a 4-banger 2-wheel drive S10 and
> since I only wanted liability insurance, the rate was very
> good.
> Now, if you want to insure the *value* of the EV, that is
> another story, but I recommend to go to an agent and
> explain what you want to do.
>
>
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Darin -@- ForkenSwift.com
In reply to this post by Paul Wujek-2
> Paul Wujek wrote:
>> Sorry Lee,
>> he can't do that because his car will fail at its first *Drive Clean*
>> inspection.
>>
>> So he can get at best 2 years usage from the car before he's hosed (that
>> is if he gets the car inspected, registers it for 2 years, and then does
>> the conversion immediately).

Um, nope!

I discovered to register the ForkenSwift as an EV that I simply had to walk into the licence office and state "my car is now an EV" to have its engine type changed to "E" in the system and obtain a permanent Drive Clean exemption.

(I'm also pretty sure if this were common knowledge, Ontario would suddenly have hundreds of "EV's" on the books before a new layer of red tape was quickly developed!)

Lastly: FYI, Ontario grants sales tax rebates on costs incurred in an electric conversion.

Darin
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

joe-22
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Another idea - MOVE out of Ontario!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NO electric car in Ontario Canada.


> >> The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
> >> permission."
>
> Paul Wujek wrote:
>> Sorry Lee,
>> he can't do that because his car will fail at its first *Drive Clean*
>> inspection.
>>
>> So he can get at best 2 years usage from the car before he's hosed (that
>> is if he gets the car inspected, registers it for 2 years, and then does
>> the conversion immediately).
>
> Hmm; that's unfortunate. If it were me, I'd get copies of the
> regulations and play "lawyer" to try to find a loophole. Or contact my
> provincial representative, to see what he suggests. Be very polite, but
> insistent. There is *always* a way; if not through the front door, then
> through the back door.
>
> A member of our local MN EAA club has a Swiss Twike he wanted to
> license. The state DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles) refused -- they have no
> category for an electric- and pedal-powered hybrid, and took the
> attitude that "anything not mandatory is forbidden." He had to go to his
> state representative, who called the head of the DMV, who wrote an
> executive order saying "this vehicle is legal to drive". He says he
> loves the look on a policeman's face when he gets pulled over and the
> cop runs the VIN#, and gets back a personal note from the head of the
> DMV to let him go. :-)
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Werner Peters
In reply to this post by Darin -@- ForkenSwift.com
Darin, did you get insurance on your Swift conversion?

Werner

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Darin at- forkenswift.com <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > Paul Wujek wrote:
> >> Sorry Lee,
> >> he can't do that because his car will fail at its first *Drive Clean*
> >> inspection.
> >>
> >> So he can get at best 2 years usage from the car before he's hosed (that
> >> is if he gets the car inspected, registers it for 2 years, and then does
> >> the conversion immediately).
>
> Um, nope!
>
> I discovered to register the ForkenSwift as an EV that I simply had to walk
> into the licence office and state "my car is now an EV" to have its engine
> type changed to "E" in the system and obtain a permanent Drive Clean
> exemption.
>
> (I'm also pretty sure if this were common knowledge, Ontario would suddenly
> have hundreds of "EV's" on the books before a new layer of red tape was
> quickly developed!)
>
> Lastly: FYI, Ontario grants sales tax rebates on costs incurred in an
> electric conversion.
>
> Darin
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/NO-electric-car-in-Ontario-Canada.-tp17518891p17525341.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

roddilkes
In reply to this post by ve3hsc
Lee, this is great advice!
The authorities stock answer is NO, so just do it well and then put
them on the spot.

Regards, Rod Dilkes

>
> The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
> permission." In other words, don't ask the government, auto
companies,
> or utility companies unless you want to be told, "No!"
>
> Go ahead and convert it to electric yourself. Don't tell them you
> converted it. Just register it and drive it exactly like every
other
> vehicle. If you do a competent job (and folks on this list can help
you
> do that), it will work just fine. Stay within the GVWR, bolt down
the
> batteries, cover all the electrical terminals; that sort of thing.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net



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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Werner Peters
I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether the car
in question has been modified.

Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are obligated to
inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you may be
left out on a limb if you are in an accident.

He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic vehicle that
was done by a do it yourselfer.

Werner

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Rod Dilkes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lee, this is great advice!
> The authorities stock answer is NO, so just do it well and then put
> them on the spot.
>
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>
> >
> > The classic advice is "It is better to ask for forgiveness than for
> > permission." In other words, don't ask the government, auto
> companies,
> > or utility companies unless you want to be told, "No!"
> >
> > Go ahead and convert it to electric yourself. Don't tell them you
> > converted it. Just register it and drive it exactly like every
> other
> > vehicle. If you do a competent job (and folks on this list can help
> you
> > do that), it will work just fine. Stay within the GVWR, bolt down
> the
> > batteries, cover all the electrical terminals; that sort of thing.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by ve3hsc
From: Werner Peters

> I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
> When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether
> the car in question has been modified.
>
> Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are obligated
> to inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you may
> be left out on a limb if you are in an accident.
>
> He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic vehicle
> that was done by a do it yourselfer.

This is useful, Werner. Would you be able to research the matter further with him? What exactly is the insurance company worried about? Why do they care? For example,

1. What is the insurance company's definition of "modified"?
   People obviously modify cars all the time. They install larger
   wheels, replace the engine, do extensive bodywork, etc.

2. What specifically in the policy prohibits do-it-yourselfers?
   What's the difference whether the engine was replaced by a
   dealership, or the same mechanic but working on his own car?

3. How do you insure custom, classic, antique, or other specialty
   vehicles in Canada?

4. What if the vehicle is retitled? For example, many small companies
   in the US bought regular ICE cars, converted them into EVs, and
   sold them with newly issued titles (Solectria, US Electricar, Jet
   Industries, etc.)

5. What if the conversion is done by a company? What if that company
   was in fact started by the person insuing the vehicle (i.e. this
   is his very first prototype)?

6. What if an EV conversion is done using the parts from a factory EV,
   such as a Ford Ranger ICE converted using parts from a real Ford
   Ranger EV (like the motors that keep showing up on eBay). The
   resulting vehicle is exactly the way Ford did it.

7. Does Canada have "stated value" policies?

8. Do they have basic liability insurance, where you are not insuring
   the vehicle itself, but only the people and other vehicles or property
   you hit?

9. Can Canadians post a bond and self-insure themselves? In the US,
   wealthy families, large businesses, and even some car clubs create
   their own mutual insurance company.

10. Lastly, what are the consequences of not having insurance? In some
   states in the USA, the fine is basically a slap on the wrist.


--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Neon John
In reply to this post by Werner Peters
On Wed, 28 May 2008 23:09:35 -0400, "Werner Peters" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
>When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether the car
>in question has been modified.
>
>Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are obligated to
>inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you may be
>left out on a limb if you are in an accident.
>
>He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic vehicle that
>was done by a do it yourselfer.

Is this a Canuck thing, are you dealing with a high risk insurer or is a US
agent winging it?  I've been buying car insurance for around 40 years and have
never encountered any of this stuff.

My procedure for insuring a new car is thus:

I call USAA's toll free number.  I give the person who answers the phone the
particulars about the car.  Year, make, model and VIN.  He types all that in
and then asks me if I want comprehensive (no), uninsured motorist (yes),
medical coverage (yes) and a couple other minor details.  He quotes me a
price, I accept and the bill, policy and insurance cards are emailed directly
to me.  A 15 minute process.  I set up the pay schedule with my online billpay
service and that's that.

I have NEVER been asked about modifications and there isn't a word about that
in my policy.  The restrictions are so few I could almost memorize them.  No
commercial use.  No criminal use.  Couple other things relating to fraud and
such.  

I had no problem insuring my Citi or my GMC/Izuzu medium duty commercial cube
van that I'm converting into an RV/toy hauler.  I had no problem insuring my
old rail framed mud buggy.  It was treated as a home-built car.  I had no
problem insuring my grey market BMW that I imported from Germany.  The VIN
didn't match the US standard so they treated it as "passenger car, other".

Similarly, I've never had a bit of hassle at the DMV.  They had a little
problem figuring out how to classify my Citi because mine was the only
electric car in town and they'd never done one before but a quick call to
Nashville straightened it out.

Part of it may be that I'm a 50-something guy with no nicks on my record since
I was 20 other than a speeding ticket every 10 years or so.  Whatever it is,
something just doesn't seem right with the problems US citizens have been
reporting.  No hope for the Canucks, at least until they become our 51st
state.  I do know that USAA and other premium quality insurers will drop you
like a hot potato if your record becomes unclean.  My ex found out about that
after she had two fender-benders in a 5 year period.

On the claims side I had a very bad wreck (hit head-on by a drunk driver) when
I was 20.  My car was fairly heavily hotrodded but that never entered into the
conversation.  After making sure I was OK, USAA arranged me a rental car by
that evening and had me a check within a few days.  An independent adjuster
under contract to USAA visited the salvage yard and verified that the car was
totaled.  Of course the drunk wasn't insured.  No hassles and everything was
done by phone.

It isn't just USAA either.  After USAA dumped us both after wifey's fender
benders, I spent a few years in insurance purgatory with Grange.  Other than 3
times the premiums, everything worked the same way.  No questions about my
vehicles, no inspections and no hassles.  

USAA quit doing agreed value policies for a couple of years so I put my
motorhome with Progressive.  Same story.  No inspections, no questions about
mods and no hassles.  Just a bit higher premiums.

One factor may be that I'm old and experienced enough not to tell 'em anything
they didn't ask me.  Just as in dealing with the cops, running your mouth
invariably gets you trouble.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -Darwin

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Werner Peters
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
I find that the insurance people I talk to on the phone will not answer
these questions. ALl tehy tell me is "We just follow the guidlines given to
us, and we will not insure a DIY modification of that extent. They regard
home made EV's as a 'substantial modification', and they simply don't have
the stats or the categories in place to determine the risk factors.

sooo, at this point, I may have wasted $1300 on a donor car. The engine is
already gone. Does anyone want to buy a 1998 Ford exscort Station wagon with
no motor?



On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Werner Peters
> > I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
> > When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether
> > the car in question has been modified.
> >
> > Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are obligated
> > to inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you may
> > be left out on a limb if you are in an accident.
> >
> > He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic vehicle
> > that was done by a do it yourselfer.
>
> This is useful, Werner. Would you be able to research the matter further
> with him? What exactly is the insurance company worried about? Why do they
> care? For example,
>
> 1. What is the insurance company's definition of "modified"?
>   People obviously modify cars all the time. They install larger
>   wheels, replace the engine, do extensive bodywork, etc.
>
> 2. What specifically in the policy prohibits do-it-yourselfers?
>   What's the difference whether the engine was replaced by a
>   dealership, or the same mechanic but working on his own car?
>
> 3. How do you insure custom, classic, antique, or other specialty
>   vehicles in Canada?
>
> 4. What if the vehicle is retitled? For example, many small companies
>   in the US bought regular ICE cars, converted them into EVs, and
>   sold them with newly issued titles (Solectria, US Electricar, Jet
>   Industries, etc.)
>
> 5. What if the conversion is done by a company? What if that company
>   was in fact started by the person insuing the vehicle (i.e. this
>   is his very first prototype)?
>
> 6. What if an EV conversion is done using the parts from a factory EV,
>   such as a Ford Ranger ICE converted using parts from a real Ford
>   Ranger EV (like the motors that keep showing up on eBay). The
>   resulting vehicle is exactly the way Ford did it.
>
> 7. Does Canada have "stated value" policies?
>
> 8. Do they have basic liability insurance, where you are not insuring
>   the vehicle itself, but only the people and other vehicles or property
>   you hit?
>
> 9. Can Canadians post a bond and self-insure themselves? In the US,
>   wealthy families, large businesses, and even some car clubs create
>   their own mutual insurance company.
>
> 10. Lastly, what are the consequences of not having insurance? In some
>   states in the USA, the fine is basically a slap on the wrist.
>
>
> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Nicolas Drouin
<off list>

Hi, I'm in Quebec, and you and Scott have me a little worried, so I
made a few calls yesterday.

I've asked my insurance company for a quote for converting my current
car (it probably wont be the donor, but, I thought it would actually
get the ball rolling).
They asked alot of questions, wrote it all down and they will get back to me.

My broker is TD-Meloche-Monnex, my insurance is Securite National (in Quebec).

They seemed more concerned about who was going to fix it if I got into
accident than about insuring it in the first place.  I told them I
wanted to insure the depreciated value of my vehicle, about 6k$, plus
the 10k$ of new parts.

I suspect they will come back with a 'we'll insure you one-way only'
responce; but at least I'll know.  I pointed to the
www.voitureselectrique.ca guys as an example of a commercial outfit
selling electric cars in Quebec; this reassured them somewhat.

I'll let you know how it turned out.

-Nick in Montreal

On 5/29/08, Werner Peters <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I find that the insurance people I talk to on the phone will not answer
> these questions. ALl tehy tell me is "We just follow the guidlines given to
> us, and we will not insure a DIY modification of that extent. They regard
> home made EV's as a 'substantial modification', and they simply don't have
> the stats or the categories in place to determine the risk factors.
>
> sooo, at this point, I may have wasted $1300 on a donor car. The engine is
> already gone. Does anyone want to buy a 1998 Ford exscort Station wagon with
> no motor?
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Werner Peters
> > > I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
> > > When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether
> > > the car in question has been modified.
> > >
> > > Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are obligated
> > > to inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you may
> > > be left out on a limb if you are in an accident.
> > >
> > > He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic vehicle
> > > that was done by a do it yourselfer.
> >
> > This is useful, Werner. Would you be able to research the matter further
> > with him? What exactly is the insurance company worried about? Why do they
> > care? For example,
> >
> > 1. What is the insurance company's definition of "modified"?
> >   People obviously modify cars all the time. They install larger
> >   wheels, replace the engine, do extensive bodywork, etc.
> >
> > 2. What specifically in the policy prohibits do-it-yourselfers?
> >   What's the difference whether the engine was replaced by a
> >   dealership, or the same mechanic but working on his own car?
> >
> > 3. How do you insure custom, classic, antique, or other specialty
> >   vehicles in Canada?
> >
> > 4. What if the vehicle is retitled? For example, many small companies
> >   in the US bought regular ICE cars, converted them into EVs, and
> >   sold them with newly issued titles (Solectria, US Electricar, Jet
> >   Industries, etc.)
> >
> > 5. What if the conversion is done by a company? What if that company
> >   was in fact started by the person insuing the vehicle (i.e. this
> >   is his very first prototype)?
> >
> > 6. What if an EV conversion is done using the parts from a factory EV,
> >   such as a Ford Ranger ICE converted using parts from a real Ford
> >   Ranger EV (like the motors that keep showing up on eBay). The
> >   resulting vehicle is exactly the way Ford did it.
> >
> > 7. Does Canada have "stated value" policies?
> >
> > 8. Do they have basic liability insurance, where you are not insuring
> >   the vehicle itself, but only the people and other vehicles or property
> >   you hit?
> >
> > 9. Can Canadians post a bond and self-insure themselves? In the US,
> >   wealthy families, large businesses, and even some car clubs create
> >   their own mutual insurance company.
> >
> > 10. Lastly, what are the consequences of not having insurance? In some
> >   states in the USA, the fine is basically a slap on the wrist.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> > doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Werner Peters
I am currently insured with TD Home and Auto and they turned down my request
to insure my EV project.
President's Choice also turned me down.
It has everything to do with converting it myself. I would have no problem
if I were to purchase a factory built EV.

Werner

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:58 AM, nicolas drouin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> <off list>
>
> Hi, I'm in Quebec, and you and Scott have me a little worried, so I
> made a few calls yesterday.
>
> I've asked my insurance company for a quote for converting my current
> car (it probably wont be the donor, but, I thought it would actually
> get the ball rolling).
> They asked alot of questions, wrote it all down and they will get back to
> me.
>
> My broker is TD-Meloche-Monnex, my insurance is Securite National (in
> Quebec).
>
> They seemed more concerned about who was going to fix it if I got into
> accident than about insuring it in the first place.  I told them I
> wanted to insure the depreciated value of my vehicle, about 6k$, plus
> the 10k$ of new parts.
>
> I suspect they will come back with a 'we'll insure you one-way only'
> responce; but at least I'll know.  I pointed to the
> www.voitureselectrique.ca guys as an example of a commercial outfit
> selling electric cars in Quebec; this reassured them somewhat.
>
> I'll let you know how it turned out.
>
> -Nick in Montreal
>
> On 5/29/08, Werner Peters <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I find that the insurance people I talk to on the phone will not answer
> > these questions. ALl tehy tell me is "We just follow the guidlines given
> to
> > us, and we will not insure a DIY modification of that extent. They regard
> > home made EV's as a 'substantial modification', and they simply don't
> have
> > the stats or the categories in place to determine the risk factors.
> >
> > sooo, at this point, I may have wasted $1300 on a donor car. The engine
> is
> > already gone. Does anyone want to buy a 1998 Ford exscort Station wagon
> with
> > no motor?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Werner Peters
> > > > I just talked to an insurance broker. He is a friend of mine.
> > > > When you apply for insurance, one of the questions asked is whether
> > > > the car in question has been modified.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, if you convert a car after getting insurance, you are
> obligated
> > > > to inform your insurance company of the modifications; otherwise you
> may
> > > > be left out on a limb if you are in an accident.
> > > >
> > > > He also doubted if one can get insurance on a modified electic
> vehicle
> > > > that was done by a do it yourselfer.
> > >
> > > This is useful, Werner. Would you be able to research the matter
> further
> > > with him? What exactly is the insurance company worried about? Why do
> they
> > > care? For example,
> > >
> > > 1. What is the insurance company's definition of "modified"?
> > >   People obviously modify cars all the time. They install larger
> > >   wheels, replace the engine, do extensive bodywork, etc.
> > >
> > > 2. What specifically in the policy prohibits do-it-yourselfers?
> > >   What's the difference whether the engine was replaced by a
> > >   dealership, or the same mechanic but working on his own car?
> > >
> > > 3. How do you insure custom, classic, antique, or other specialty
> > >   vehicles in Canada?
> > >
> > > 4. What if the vehicle is retitled? For example, many small companies
> > >   in the US bought regular ICE cars, converted them into EVs, and
> > >   sold them with newly issued titles (Solectria, US Electricar, Jet
> > >   Industries, etc.)
> > >
> > > 5. What if the conversion is done by a company? What if that company
> > >   was in fact started by the person insuing the vehicle (i.e. this
> > >   is his very first prototype)?
> > >
> > > 6. What if an EV conversion is done using the parts from a factory EV,
> > >   such as a Ford Ranger ICE converted using parts from a real Ford
> > >   Ranger EV (like the motors that keep showing up on eBay). The
> > >   resulting vehicle is exactly the way Ford did it.
> > >
> > > 7. Does Canada have "stated value" policies?
> > >
> > > 8. Do they have basic liability insurance, where you are not insuring
> > >   the vehicle itself, but only the people and other vehicles or
> property
> > >   you hit?
> > >
> > > 9. Can Canadians post a bond and self-insure themselves? In the US,
> > >   wealthy families, large businesses, and even some car clubs create
> > >   their own mutual insurance company.
> > >
> > > 10. Lastly, what are the consequences of not having insurance? In some
> > >   states in the USA, the fine is basically a slap on the wrist.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> > > doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > www.westmountparkchurch.org
> > www.thesummitchurch.ca
> > ********************************************
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
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Re: NO electric car in Ontario Canada.

Dale Ulan
In reply to this post by Nicolas Drouin
> > 8. Do they have basic liability insurance, where you are not insuring
> >   the vehicle itself, but only the people and other vehicles or property
> >   you hit?

Yes, this is commonly called 'PLPD' insurance or the minimum requirement.
But even this coverage can be difficult to get with a modified vehicle.
That is why I am looking forward to some OEM EV's or even plug-in hybrids.

> > 9. Can Canadians post a bond and self-insure themselves? In the US,
> >   wealthy families, large businesses, and even some car clubs create
> >   their own mutual insurance company.

Yes, you can do that provided you meet the requirements.

> > 10. Lastly, what are the consequences of not having insurance? In some
> >   states in the USA, the fine is basically a slap on the wrist.

The fine here is somewhere around $2500, and if something goes wrong,
you're on the hook for it, too. Interestingly enough, if you are in
an accident while impaired (DUI, on speed, weed, whatever), your
insurance is void. It is mandatory to be insured and prove it when
you renew your tags, as well.

-Dale

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12