NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
69 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence Rhodes
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Dennis Miles
Lawrence,
     This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly for
home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
    Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles, Batteries,
and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned the entire
alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them the ABC'S
Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice is always
left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I   or  (813) 434 - 3884
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101213/916a31b6/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Lawrence Rhodes
It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which
runs on overhead wires, maybe even through your backyard)
the 600kW is only 55A unless it is 3-phase then it is
even lower.
It also has been said that there will be few high power
fast-charge "convenience stores" as most everyone
will opt for slow and cheaper overnight charging.
But if you want to make a long trip and have a few
bucks extra to spend for the fast charge, then that
convenience may be viable (I mean, it may have a
positive business case as money-making enterprise,
to have fast-charging stations at regular places along
highways in the same way that we have gas stations now
though I believe there will not be a need for so many
charging stations as there are gas outlets today.
Time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
improvements to the infrastructure?
2. what level of charger?

Let me expound on the latter.  I think for most people, 100 mile range
with 20 minute charging will not be popular.  Maybe at 200 miles with 5
minute charging.  But to do that, let's take a simple example:

- Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
optimistic at freeway speeds)
- The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
- Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
- To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
- At 440v, that would be 1364a
Wow!  I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.

Peri
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lawrence,
     This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
stations!
The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
"Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly
for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
    Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them
the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice
is always left out but is definitely necessary!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVA Education
Chapter*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I   or  (813) 434 - 3884
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
---------------
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> e&id=132020612&m=132020598
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101213/916a31b6/a
ttac
hment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Dennis Miles
Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn  at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>wrote:

> It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which
> runs on overhead wires, maybe even through your backyard)
> the 600kW is only 55A unless it is 3-phase then it is
> even lower.
> It also has been said that there will be few high power
> fast-charge "convenience stores" as most everyone
> will opt for slow and cheaper overnight charging.
> But if you want to make a long trip and have a few
> bucks extra to spend for the fast charge, then that
> convenience may be viable (I mean, it may have a
> positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> to have fast-charging stations at regular places along
> highways in the same way that we have gas stations now
> though I believe there will not be a need for so many
> charging stations as there are gas outlets today.
> Time will tell.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> improvements to the infrastructure?
> 2. what level of charger?
>
> Let me expound on the latter.  I think for most people, 100 mile range
> with 20 minute charging will not be popular.  Maybe at 200 miles with 5
> minute charging.  But to do that, let's take a simple example:
>
> - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> optimistic at freeway speeds)
> - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> Wow!  I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Lawrence,
>     This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> stations!
> The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are mostly
> for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
>    Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called them
> the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as "S"ervice
> is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVA Education
> Chapter*
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I   or  (813) 434 - 3884
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> ---------------
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fals
> > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101213/916a31b6/a
> ttac
> hment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101214/af81fc42/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Peri Hartman
That would work in low demand areas.  But along a freeway where people are
queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly.   There
comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
throughout most of the day.  At that point, any advantages of charging a
"dump-charge" pack are lost.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: 14 December, 2010 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn  at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from a
homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.

Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to the
EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
Re-charging station's cycle packs.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>wrote:

> It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which runs on overhead
> wires, maybe even through your backyard) the 600kW is only 55A unless
> it is 3-phase then it is even lower.
> It also has been said that there will be few high power fast-charge
> "convenience stores" as most everyone will opt for slow and cheaper
> overnight charging.
> But if you want to make a long trip and have a few bucks extra to
> spend for the fast charge, then that convenience may be viable (I
> mean, it may have a positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> to have fast-charging stations at regular places along highways in the
> same way that we have gas stations now though I believe there will not
> be a need for so many charging stations as there are gas outlets
> today.
> Time will tell.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
> http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> improvements to the infrastructure?
> 2. what level of charger?
>
> Let me expound on the latter.  I think for most people, 100 mile range
> with 20 minute charging will not be popular.  Maybe at 200 miles with
> 5 minute charging.  But to do that, let's take a simple example:
>
> - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> optimistic at freeway speeds)
> - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> Wow!  I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Lawrence,
>     This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> stations!
> The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are
> mostly for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
>    Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called
> them the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as
> "S"ervice is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVA Education
> Chapter*
> Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I   or  (813) 434 - 3884
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> ----
> ---------------
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fa
> > ls
> > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101213/916a31b6
> /a
> ttac
> hment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101214/af81fc42/attac
hment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Dennis Miles
I agree Peri,
     However the EVs queing up to fast re-charge might be several years away
and a "Dump-Charge" Pack system would prove the demand and give the
Electrical Distribution  System time to "Catch-Up" and a proven demand to
increase available Power levels in what otherwise might be a remote area.
That will be far more likely than the "Vaporware" the utilities are using at
this time to justify major expansion of their grid. (I hope they are
visionary, not just greedy, in the quest for Tax-payer's monetary support
for expansion funding.)

Regards,
Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Peri Hartman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That would work in low demand areas.  But along a freeway where people are
> queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly.   There
> comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
> throughout most of the day.  At that point, any advantages of charging a
> "dump-charge" pack are lost.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of Dennis Miles
> Sent: 14 December, 2010 9:12 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
>
> Perhaps we can get a comment from Steve Clunn  at Greenshed.com but IIRC he
> fast-charged his mower from his pickup pack then recharged the pickup from
> a
> homeowners outlet while he cut their lawn with the mower, and trailered the
> mower to the next lawn service client and repeated the action.
>
> Why not use a similar setup at a highway FAST recharging station, several
> cycle packs are charged at the one or two hour rate and are connected to
> the
> EV pack to recharge the EV in 15 minutes or less. the load to the grid is
> leveled at a substantially lowered and the EVs receive a Quick as possible
> re-charge. As business grows in the coming years add more batteries to the
> Re-charging station's cycle packs.
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > It has been said before - high power needs high voltage.
> > At a typical 11kV from the medium voltage grid (which runs on overhead
> > wires, maybe even through your backyard) the 600kW is only 55A unless
> > it is 3-phase then it is even lower.
> > It also has been said that there will be few high power fast-charge
> > "convenience stores" as most everyone will opt for slow and cheaper
> > overnight charging.
> > But if you want to make a long trip and have a few bucks extra to
> > spend for the fast charge, then that convenience may be viable (I
> > mean, it may have a positive business case as money-making enterprise,
> > to have fast-charging stations at regular places along highways in the
> > same way that we have gas stations now though I believe there will not
> > be a need for so many charging stations as there are gas outlets
> > today.
> > Time will tell.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
> > http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:51 AM
> > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> >
> > Great progress, but a couple things aren't clear.
> > 1. does $8B cover just the cost of the charging stations, or also
> > improvements to the infrastructure?
> > 2. what level of charger?
> >
> > Let me expound on the latter.  I think for most people, 100 mile range
> > with 20 minute charging will not be popular.  Maybe at 200 miles with
> > 5 minute charging.  But to do that, let's take a simple example:
> >
> > - Say you have a car that gets 250wh/m (possible, but probably
> > optimistic at freeway speeds)
> > - The goal is 200 miles on a charge.
> > - Not counting losses, that's 50kwh
> > - To deliver that in 5 minutes requires a 600kw service.
> > - At 440v, that would be 1364a
> > Wow!  I'm not sure Agassi is providing for that within an $8B estimate.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Dennis Miles
> > Sent: 13 December, 2010 9:03 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
> >
> > Lawrence,
> >     This is about $8 billion to build and stock battery swapping
> > stations!
> > The speaker is Shai Agassi CEO of Better Place. He also mentioned the
> > "Project Get Ready" program and another program however those are
> > mostly for home charging stations, not highway recharging locations.
> >    Agassi also mentioned A-B-C which he defined as Automobiles,
> > Batteries, and Charging. It immediately came to my mind that I learned
> > the entire alphabet not just the first three letters, and we called
> > them the ABC'S Therefore I would add the letter S to his comment as
> > "S"ervice is always left out but is definitely necessary!
> > Regards,
> > *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> > *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
> > EVTI-EVA Education
> > Chapter*
> > Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I   or  (813) 434 - 3884
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > ----
> > ---------------
> > On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=fa
> > > ls
> > > e&id=132020612&m=132020598
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> > scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101213/916a31b6
> > /a
> > ttac
> > hment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
> *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
> EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
> *
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
>       It ended because they started using their Brains !
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101214/af81fc42/attac
> hment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101214/ebe5fd63/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
On 12/14/2010 11:27 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> That would work in low demand areas.  But along a freeway where people are
> queing up, you might as well use a high wattage source directly.   There
> comes a point where the rate in (from the power lines) equals the rate out
> throughout most of the day.  At that point, any advantages of charging a
> "dump-charge" pack are lost.

In the short run, people using the high-power charger will be few and
far between. So it makes more sense for these early charging stations to
have a dump pack, so they can use a low-capacity electric service.

Later on, when that station is used a dozen times a day, *then* upgrade
its electrical service.

Even with high-power service, a dump pack still has advantages. Think
about how people use gas stations. They park at the pump, start it, and
then go inside to pee or buy a treat, etc. The car may get fuelled for 5
minutes, but sit there for 10 minutes. With a local dump pack, this 50%
duty cycle cuts the peak electric load in half.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Lawrence Rhodes
My thoughts on Project Better Place:  http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html


Lawrence Rhodes wrote
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to ev@lists.sjsu.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Dennis Miles
Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment too.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:09 PM, AMPhibian <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> >
> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101215/2f6730ef/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

AMPhibian
Thanks for the feedback.  A system that increases the cost and complexity of EV's unnecessarily is not going to help the cause.

Dennis Miles wrote
Gosh, I read your blog and was so impressed I added a positive comment too.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:09 PM, AMPhibian <amp_phibian@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:

> My thoughts on Project Better Place:

I use a prepaid mobile phone plan.  It's WAY cheaper for my needs.  But most
folks are happy to spend more and get packages with lots of "free" minutes.  
Who am I to criticize?

For most of us on the EVDL, you are probably right.  But for other, less EV-
savvy consumers, Agassi may have a winner here. With most folks, convenience
wins as long as the cost is within reason.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

AMPhibian
My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form, with all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of every vehicle, and locking in a standardized pack that limits options and innovation.  This could mean being married to Better Place from the factory, with no options.  If BP catches on if you want a charge away from home you might have to buy into their expensive system.  It smells too much like oil company monopoly.  

EVDL Administrator wrote
On 15 Dec 2010 at 15:09, AMPhibian wrote:

> My thoughts on Project Better Place:

I use a prepaid mobile phone plan.  It's WAY cheaper for my needs.  But most
folks are happy to spend more and get packages with lots of "free" minutes.  
Who am I to criticize?

For most of us on the EVDL, you are probably right.  But for other, less EV-
savvy consumers, Agassi may have a winner here. With most folks, convenience
wins as long as the cost is within reason.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to ev@lists.sjsu.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

EVDL Administrator
On 16 Dec 2010 at 5:06, AMPhibian wrote:

> My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form, with
> all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of every
> vehicle, and locking in a standardized pack that limits options and
> innovation.

Could happen, if they make it a totally proprietary black box.  I'll admit
that automakers in general haven't been too forthcoming about subsystems and
components in recent years.  But if they release the specs, third parties
can make workalike products.  We'll have to see what they do (unless you  
have some insight into this already).  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

AMPhibian
No insight, just a Borg like feeling I get from PBP.  If you don't buy into their "charge minutes" plan and their charge network becomes dominant, can you still use their chargers?  If packs must become standardized to use their swap stations, will automakers make pack improvements if they are not compatible with the swap stations?  Will all vehicles start to look the same?  
"We are Borg, resistance is futile."

EVDL Administrator wrote
On 16 Dec 2010 at 5:06, AMPhibian wrote:

> My concern is that this model will catch on and become the dominant form, with
> all EV manufacturers adopting the technology, driving up the cost of every
> vehicle, and locking in a standardized pack that limits options and
> innovation.

Could happen, if they make it a totally proprietary black box.  I'll admit
that automakers in general haven't been too forthcoming about subsystems and
components in recent years.  But if they release the specs, third parties
can make workalike products.  We'll have to see what they do (unless you  
have some insight into this already).  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
A possible solution comes to my mind.  Instead of making standardized
"Packs" make standardized "modules"
These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.
It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,
C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.

The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular
size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.
A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,
pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.

The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
the batteries.
By using small modules,  little out of the way service stations can swap
batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery.  Larger service
stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out
your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a
couple minutes.
At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in
5 to 10 minutes.
When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated
to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't
afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.

Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used
product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or
renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc.  These tanks need to be
tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the
retailer absorbs this cost.
Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized.
All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on
fairly standardized tires.  Things like lights and windshield wipers are
mostly standardized.
Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no
reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different
sizes.

Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power
requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously.
The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the
rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than
developing battery swap infrastructure.

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>
>> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

AMPhibian
Many small modules with many tight high voltage connections that can be repeatedly plugged and unplugged by a machine seems like a nightmare.  PBP is working on a single pack sized unit, not many small ones.  If it catches on that's what will become the standard.  As for the charging infrastructure for fast charging that would probably be handled by stationary batteries charging up over night to dump charge during the day.  Fast charging would really be a rare occurrence for most people as home charging will be cheaper and easier on the pack.  Also, fast charging is relative and could range from 5-30 minutes depending on actual needs.

Peter VanDerWal wrote
A possible solution comes to my mind.  Instead of making standardized
"Packs" make standardized "modules"
These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.
It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,
C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.

The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular
size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.
A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,
pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.

The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
the batteries.
By using small modules,  little out of the way service stations can swap
batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery.  Larger service
stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out
your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a
couple minutes.
At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in
5 to 10 minutes.
When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated
to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't
afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.

Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used
product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or
renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc.  These tanks need to be
tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the
retailer absorbs this cost.
Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized.
All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on
fairly standardized tires.  Things like lights and windshield wipers are
mostly standardized.
Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no
reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different
sizes.

Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power
requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously.
The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the
rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than
developing battery swap infrastructure.

>
> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>
>> http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=132020612&m=132020598
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@lists.sjsu.edu only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@lists.sjsu.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to ev@lists.sjsu.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Myles Twete
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
"The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
the batteries.Larger service

stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out your
discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a couple
minutes."

 

With a similar idea, in 1917 Milburn Light Electrics were offered by dealers
with leased battery packs and a battery exchange system provided whereby
their packs could be swapped within a few minutes.

Here's a 1917 photo showing the owner of Chicago's Fashion Auto Station and
Electric Garage demonstrating the ease of swapping battery packs:
http://www.milburn.us/images/fashion3.jpg

Apologies if I've mentioned this too many times before.

-Myles

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 7:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

 

A possible solution comes to my mind.  Instead of making standardized

"Packs" make standardized "modules"

These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.

It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,

C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.

 

The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular

size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.

A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,

pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.

 

The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload

the batteries.

By using small modules,  little out of the way service stations can swap

batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery.  Larger service

stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out

your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a

couple minutes.

At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in

5 to 10 minutes.

When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated

to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't

afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.

 

Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used

product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or

renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc.  These tanks need to be

tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the

retailer absorbs this cost.

Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized.

All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on

fairly standardized tires.  Things like lights and windshield wipers are

mostly standardized.

Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no

reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different

sizes.

 

Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power

requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously.

The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the

rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than

developing battery swap infrastructure.

 

>

> My thoughts on Project Better Place:

> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html

>

>

>

> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

>>

>>
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=1
32020612&m=132020598

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.

>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.

>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub

>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/

>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

>>

>>

>

> --

> View this message in context:

>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-el
ectric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html

> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at

> Nabble.com.

>

> _______________________________________________

> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.

> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.

> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub

> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/

> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

>

 

_______________________________________________

| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.

| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.

| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub

| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/

| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101218/f38880df/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
By the time this will be to market, hopefully never in my opinion, they will
have dump charging all taken care of. You will fill your battery pack as
fast as you fill your tank today. Before you argue with me about the
currents needed off the grid for dump charging answer this. In this battery
exchange fiasco, when there is a line of cars waiting for a battery
exchange, how do you charge them fast enough to turn them around for the
next user? You end up with the same grid current problem.

Next problem, I don't want to exchange into a set of batteries that some kid
just got done hot roding with! Probably get half the distance or even burn
my car down.

I could go on but to be short, in my opinion, this battery exchange thing is
"pure nonsense"

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of AMPhibian
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


Many small modules with many tight high voltage connections that can be
repeatedly plugged and unplugged by a machine seems like a nightmare.  PBP
is working on a single pack sized unit, not many small ones.  If it catches
on that's what will become the standard.  As for the charging infrastructure
for fast charging that would probably be handled by stationary batteries
charging up over night to dump charge during the day.  Fast charging would
really be a rare occurrence for most people as home charging will be cheaper
and easier on the pack.  Also, fast charging is relative and could range
from 5-30 minutes depending on actual needs.


Peter VanDerWal wrote:

>
> A possible solution comes to my mind.  Instead of making standardized
> "Packs" make standardized "modules"
> These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each.
> It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,
> C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.
>
> The advantage of small modules is that you aren't locked into a particular
> size and shape for the pack, nor are you locked into a given capacity.
> A city car might use 4 modules, highway capable vehicles might use 6-8,
> pickup trucks maybe 12, tractor trailer rigs might use 40 or 50.
>
> The cars could have some kind of conveyor belt system to load and unload
> the batteries.
> By using small modules,  little out of the way service stations can swap
> batteries by hand saving the cost of automated machinery.  Larger service
> stations could have automated stalls where you pull in and it rolls out
> your discharged modules and loads in fresh ones, this could be done in a
> couple minutes.
> At home you could have a second set charging and manually swap them out in
> 5 to 10 minutes.
> When the battery capacity drops below a certain level they get relegated
> to some other function, possibly discount modules for people that can't
> afford fully charge modules or load leveling for power companies.
>
> Again there are a current industries that work well for exchanging used
> product for fresh ones, trading in empty propane tanks for full ones, or
> renting/exchanging welding gas cylinders, etc.  These tanks need to be
> tested periodically and eventually removed from service and discarded, the
> retailer absorbs this cost.
> Besides when it comes to vehicles many parts are already standardized.
> All vehicles currently use a standardized refueling system, they roll on
> fairly standardized tires.  Things like lights and windshield wipers are
> mostly standardized.
> Granted these standard come in several different sizes, but there is no
> reason that battery modules couldn't also come in a couple different
> sizes.
>
> Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power
> requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously.
> The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the
> rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than
> developing battery swap infrastructure.
>
>>
>> My thoughts on Project Better Place:
>> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>>
>>>
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=1
32020612&m=132020598

>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-el
ectric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3090075.html

>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-el
ectric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3094085.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:32 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A possible solution comes to my mind.  Instead of making standardized
> "Packs" make standardized "modules"
> These modules would be small, say 35-50 lbs each. (like a 12 V. AGM.)
> It is obviously possible to standardize battery modules, witness the AA,
> C, D and 9V batteries that are available world wide.
>
> <Fast charging seems like a better idea until one considers the power
<requirements needed to fast charge thousands of vehicles simultaneously.
<The infrastructure upgrades needed to handle that kind of power and the
<rapid changes in load associated with it are far more expensive than
<developing battery swap infrastructure.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi, You-All,
I just had to jump in on this; I agree with your first paragraph (Quoted
above)however PBP changes out the entire pack in 40 seconds! then slow
charges it until it is recharged before replacing another driver's EV pack
with that one. The larger the flow of customers, the larger the inventory
under charge or charged number of packs will have to be.
      I don't see why we would make any difference to fast or slow charge
thousands of vehicles simultaneously, so long as they are not all in the
same neighborhood. It had been suggested slow, overnight charging at home
where most cars are parked 12 hours nightly. And slow charging (J1772 level
II ) at work where most vehicles sit for 8 hours or more. Only along the
intercity highways is it necessary to "Fast Charge" in less than 20 minutes
as a part of a fairly long trip.
       The "Dump" charging station allows for current EV not equipped to
utilize the PBP system and pack to continue to have a fast cycle technology
available to accommodate them. The other problem with PBP is cost of a
station, one was recently completed in Tokyo at a cost of $500,000 and_ if_
$8 Billion was invested to blanket the USA that is over 200 miles apart???
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101219/5c833205/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.

Lee Hart
On 12/19/2010 12:50 PM, Dennis Miles wrote:
> I don't see why we would make any difference to fast or slow charge
> thousands of vehicles simultaneously, so long as they are not all in the
> same neighborhood.

All the power still comes from the same power plant or substation. It
makes it very difficult for utilities to plan or provide sufficient
capacity when peaks can occur at any time and in many different places.
Utilities are trying hard to level their load, to get rid of these high
peaks. Fast charging *creates* high peaks, and so goes in the wrong
direction from their perspective.

> It had been suggested slow, overnight charging at home
> where most cars are parked 12 hours nightly.

I think this is a better setup. It avoids the peaking problem. Owners
don't have to go to special places or wait (maybe in line) for charging.
We don't need to perpetuate the gas pump model, or spend billions on
"infrastructure".

The battery swap model works for fork lifts because a typical plant will
have 2 or 3 batteries per fork lift, and swap them on a known schedule
(like each 8 hour shift). This provide 8 or 16 hours of charge time for
the ones not in the fork lift.

With PBP, I don't see how they can predict how many batteries will be
needed, or when people will want to swap them. It's the peaking problem
again. It's going to cost a *lot* to have a dozen pack on hand, or
several huge fast chargers, just because once or twice a year a dozen
people come in at once.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
1234