New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

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New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Mark Hanson-2

Hi Folk's,
 
I got a couple of the new A123 LiFePO4 12V (13.2V-actual) 4.6ah 60whr model PSL000001 batteries that look like copies of the standard 6"L x 2.5"W x 4"H batteries used in emergency lights, PC-UPS and electric lawnmowers.  They are of course lighter but noticed that they are *only* 4.6ah when the lead equivelent is 7.2ah like the CF12V7.2 I use two of in my electric lawnmower.  I thought energy density was *better* with LiFePO4 not worse.  I wonder why?  It looks like they have balancer circuitry built in to mimic lead charging "14.4V max charge".  Assuming 4 cells, 3.3V x 4 = 13.2V norm or 3.6V x 4 = 14.4V charge.  They have a 30A fuse built in/user replaceable and says 10A max.
 
If the energy capacity isn't as good as or greater than the lead equivelent, I doubt they'll sell many.
 
Best regards,
Mark      
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Lee Hart
On 6/15/2012 10:24 AM, Mark Hanson wrote:
> I got a couple of the new A123 LiFePO4 12V (13.2V-actual) 4.6ah 60whr
> model PSL000001 batteries that look like copies of the standard 6"L x
> 2.5"W x 4"H batteries used in emergency lights, PC-UPS and electric
> lawnmowers.  They are of course lighter but noticed that they are
> *only* 4.6ah when the lead equivelent is 7.2ah like the CF12V7.2...
> If the energy capacity isn't as good as or greater than the lead
> equivelent, I doubt they'll sell many.

I dunno... marketing is a funny business.

Some people buy just because something is labelled "new, improved", or
because it's fashionable, or has lots of breathless prose with all the
right buzzwords (like "lithium"). They don't read or don't understand
the specs.

Thus we see lithium replacements for lead-acid batteries that cost more
and have less capacity. People might buy because it's lighter (a
starting battery for a racing motorcycle), or because it might last
longer (though that hasn't been the case with any other lithium
batteries in consumer products).

If you can find enough of these people, you can make a business selling
such batteries!
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!    -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
There are a few important advantages of LiFePO4 over lead-acid:

1) The A123 PSL will pretty much last forever in your UPS or
emergency light or alarm system. (20 years at least.) The lead-acid
will need to be replaced every 3-4 years, give or take.
2) You get 13 volts during the entire discharge, even at full load.
3) Under a 30 amp load, the A123 PSL will deliver the entire 4.6
A-hrs holding 13 volts. The lead-acid will deliver, at most, 2.4
A-hrs at _half_ that load, and will sag down below 11 volts doing so.

Here are the discharge curves for the typical 7.2 A-hr lead-acid "brick":
http://www.gsbattery.com/ind-products/pe12v72/pe12v72.html

         If you have a typical UPS on your computer, it has one of
these 7.2 a-hr lead-acid bricks in it. Your PC and monitor likely
draws 150 watts. About 1.3 amps @ 115VAC.  To  provide the required
150 watts, the 13 volt A123 PLS will need to supply 11.5 amps and
will do so for 24 minutes. The 12 volt lead-acid will need to supply
12.5 amps and will run for maybe 12 minutes.

         The UPS will run twice as long, weigh half as much, and I
doubt you will ever have to replace the battery.

         There is a lot of air inside the case of the PLS because
they wanted a direct drop-in for the 7.2 a-hr brick. Not _quite_
enough room, however, for another row of 26650's to give 6.9 A-hrs.

         You can, unofficially, replace the 30 amp fuse with a 40 amp
fuse, but you void the UL certification and the warranty.

         Bill D.

At 09:24 AM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>Hi Folk's,
>
>I got a couple of the new A123 LiFePO4 12V (13.2V-actual) 4.6ah
>60whr model PSL000001 batteries that look like copies of the
>standard 6"L x 2.5"W x 4"H batteries used in emergency lights,
>PC-UPS and electric lawnmowers.  They are of course lighter but
>noticed that they are *only* 4.6ah when the lead equivelent is 7.2ah
>like the CF12V7.2 I use two of in my electric lawnmower.  I thought
>energy density was *better* with LiFePO4 not worse.  I wonder
>why?  It looks like they have balancer circuitry built in to mimic
>lead charging "14.4V max charge".  Assuming 4 cells, 3.3V x 4 =
>13.2V norm or 3.6V x 4 = 14.4V charge.  They have a 30A fuse built
>in/user replaceable and says 10A max.
>
>If the energy capacity isn't as good as or greater than the lead
>equivelent, I doubt they'll sell many.
>
>Best regards,
>Mark
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

EVDL Administrator
Does anyone know whether A123 plans similar drop-in retrofits for 6v golf
car and/or 12v group 27/31 marine batteries, chargeable with lead-acid
chargers, and (perhaps wildly speculating) what such critters might cost?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Bill Dube
Full-sized lead-acid drop-in replacement 12 volt batteries exist. I
have seen them, but I am not sure if they are in full production yet.

         Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
discussing:
http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm

Bill D.

At 03:10 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>Does anyone know whether A123 plans similar drop-in retrofits for 6v golf
>car and/or 12v group 27/31 marine batteries, chargeable with lead-acid
>chargers, and (perhaps wildly speculating) what such critters might cost?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
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>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

EVDL Administrator
On 15 Jun 2012 at 15:59, Bill Dube wrote:

> Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
> discussing: http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm 

Thanks.  That appears to be a (probably higher quality) version of this 12v
retrofit battery on Ebay :

360360758709

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360360758709

It claims to be 7ah.  Another version that claims 10ah is offered elsewhere.

Here's the 7ah version on Amazon :

http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V7EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BXE6A

Some years ago Valence offered drop-in retrofits for various sizes of marine
batteries.  A few Solectria Force owners bought them.  They must have been
pretty well heeled though.  When I priced out group 24 modules, they were
$1500 each.  If they're even still available, I sure hope they're a bit
cheaper than that now.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Bill Dube
To my knowledge, the only one with UL approval, etc. is the A123 ALM
12V7. Not so easy to get those silly logos to put on the side. I've
seen the internal design. They worked very hard to make the battery
very abuse and fault tolerant. You could likely run over it with your car.

These approval certifications may not make a difference to the
typical person on this list, but for applications like medical
devices, aircraft, and the like it often matters a great a great deal.

Bill D.

  At 04:43 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>On 15 Jun 2012 at 15:59, Bill Dube wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
> > discussing: http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm
>
>Thanks.  That appears to be a (probably higher quality) version of this 12v
>retrofit battery on Ebay :
>
>360360758709
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360360758709
>
>It claims to be 7ah.  Another version that claims 10ah is offered elsewhere.
>
>Here's the 7ah version on Amazon :
>
>http://www.amazon.com/K2-K2B12V7EB-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B0056BXE6A
>
>Some years ago Valence offered drop-in retrofits for various sizes of marine
>batteries.  A few Solectria Force owners bought them.  They must have been
>pretty well heeled though.  When I priced out group 24 modules, they were
>$1500 each.  If they're even still available, I sure hope they're a bit
>cheaper than that now.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Gary L. Neal
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Bill,

I don't quite understand the math of your example.  Why would a 7.2Ahr battery pulling 12.5 amps only last for 12 minutes?  7.2 Ahr/12.5A = .6hr = 36 mins?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 4:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

There are a few important advantages of LiFePO4 over lead-acid:

1) The A123 PSL will pretty much last forever in your UPS or emergency light or alarm system. (20 years at least.) The lead-acid will need to be replaced every 3-4 years, give or take.
2) You get 13 volts during the entire discharge, even at full load.
3) Under a 30 amp load, the A123 PSL will deliver the entire 4.6 A-hrs holding 13 volts. The lead-acid will deliver, at most, 2.4 A-hrs at _half_ that load, and will sag down below 11 volts doing so.

Here are the discharge curves for the typical 7.2 A-hr lead-acid "brick":
http://www.gsbattery.com/ind-products/pe12v72/pe12v72.html

         If you have a typical UPS on your computer, it has one of these 7.2 a-hr lead-acid bricks in it. Your PC and monitor likely draws 150 watts. About 1.3 amps @ 115VAC.  To  provide the required
150 watts, the 13 volt A123 PLS will need to supply 11.5 amps and will do so for 24 minutes. The 12 volt lead-acid will need to supply
12.5 amps and will run for maybe 12 minutes.

         The UPS will run twice as long, weigh half as much, and I doubt you will ever have to replace the battery.

         There is a lot of air inside the case of the PLS because they wanted a direct drop-in for the 7.2 a-hr brick. Not _quite_ enough room, however, for another row of 26650's to give 6.9 A-hrs.

         You can, unofficially, replace the 30 amp fuse with a 40 amp fuse, but you void the UL certification and the warranty.

         Bill D.

At 09:24 AM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>Hi Folk's,
>
>I got a couple of the new A123 LiFePO4 12V (13.2V-actual) 4.6ah 60whr
>model PSL000001 batteries that look like copies of the standard 6"L x
>2.5"W x 4"H batteries used in emergency lights, PC-UPS and electric
>lawnmowers.  They are of course lighter but noticed that they are
>*only* 4.6ah when the lead equivelent is 7.2ah like the CF12V7.2 I use
>two of in my electric lawnmower.  I thought energy density was *better*
>with LiFePO4 not worse.  I wonder why?  It looks like they have
>balancer circuitry built in to mimic lead charging "14.4V max charge".  
>Assuming 4 cells, 3.3V x 4 = 13.2V norm or 3.6V x 4 = 14.4V charge.  
>They have a 30A fuse built in/user replaceable and says 10A max.
>
>If the energy capacity isn't as good as or greater than the lead
>equivelent, I doubt they'll sell many.
>
>Best regards,
>Mark
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Morgan LaMoore
Due to the Peukert Effect, the battery's capacity depends on how much
current you draw from it. The more current you draw, the lower the
capacity.

That 7.2Ah lead-acid battery will provide 7.2Ah if you discharge it at
360mA over 20 hours. If you draw more current, it will have less
capacity.

The page Bill linked to with the specifications shows what the
capacity/discharge time is at different discharge currents; that is
where he got his numbers.

The A123 Lithium cells will also have reduced capacity at high
currents, but for them 'high' is hundreds of amps instead of a few
amps.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Gary L. Neal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> I don't quite understand the math of your example.  Why would a 7.2Ahr battery pulling 12.5 amps only last for 12 minutes?  7.2 Ahr/12.5A = .6hr = 36 mins?

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

jack-2
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Hello everyone good day!  I work at Smart Battery & they are in full
production right now to replace old dead lead acid. We carry Lithium-ion
that replace lead acid batteries for golf cart , RV's boats of all sizes &
car's & trucks also. Here is a link to our web site, if anyone wants to buy
any please tell my boss Victor Harberson that U would like to place your
order threw me Jack Riggi so I can make a little extra since I don't get
payed that much right now since I just started working there! & my boss said
I could sell them to make a little extra capital income so here is the link
for Smart Battery & everyone please give my some input on the web site to
let me know what U think about it we just finished redoing the site, or if U
have any question's, or need help about anything & I will try my best to
answer or just call the shop, thanks & enjoy the site!
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com                                         
                                                                             
                                                       -----Original
Message-----
From: Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Full-sized lead-acid drop-in replacement 12 volt batteries exist. I
have seen them, but I am not sure if they are in full production yet.

         Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
discussing:
http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm

Bill D.

At 03:10 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:

>Does anyone know whether A123 plans similar drop-in retrofits for 6v golf
>car and/or 12v group 27/31 marine batteries, chargeable with lead-acid
>chargers, and (perhaps wildly speculating) what such critters might cost?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Mark Grasser
Jack,
Your web page uses the word "your" as an abbreviation for "you are" It would
concern me that a company that can't spell correctly builds Lithium
batteries.

Also,

I am curious as to how your balancing circuit functions. Is it top balancing
or continuous balancing?


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jack
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Hello everyone good day!  I work at Smart Battery & they are in full
production right now to replace old dead lead acid. We carry Lithium-ion
that replace lead acid batteries for golf cart , RV's boats of all sizes &
car's & trucks also. Here is a link to our web site, if anyone wants to buy
any please tell my boss Victor Harberson that U would like to place your
order threw me Jack Riggi so I can make a little extra since I don't get
payed that much right now since I just started working there! & my boss said
I could sell them to make a little extra capital income so here is the link
for Smart Battery & everyone please give my some input on the web site to
let me know what U think about it we just finished redoing the site, or if U
have any question's, or need help about anything & I will try my best to
answer or just call the shop, thanks & enjoy the site!
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com

 

                                                       -----Original
Message-----
From: Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Full-sized lead-acid drop-in replacement 12 volt batteries exist. I have
seen them, but I am not sure if they are in full production yet.

         Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
discussing:
http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm

Bill D.

At 03:10 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:
>Does anyone know whether A123 plans similar drop-in retrofits for 6v
>golf car and/or 12v group 27/31 marine batteries, chargeable with
>lead-acid chargers, and (perhaps wildly speculating) what such critters
might cost?

>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
>Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
>To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
>webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

jack-2
Hello Mark I do not know about the balancing of the battery's but am finding
out now & will talk about it later! I would not be that concerned about a
little English , this company does not make them they just have them made to
there specs! but thanks for the info. I will have my boss correct it!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Grasser
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:43 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Jack,
Your web page uses the word "your" as an abbreviation for "you are" It would
concern me that a company that can't spell correctly builds Lithium
batteries.

Also,

I am curious as to how your balancing circuit functions. Is it top balancing
or continuous balancing?


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jack
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Hello everyone good day!  I work at Smart Battery & they are in full
production right now to replace old dead lead acid. We carry Lithium-ion
that replace lead acid batteries for golf cart , RV's boats of all sizes &
car's & trucks also. Here is a link to our web site, if anyone wants to buy
any please tell my boss Victor Harberson that U would like to place your
order threw me Jack Riggi so I can make a little extra since I don't get
payed that much right now since I just started working there! & my boss said
I could sell them to make a little extra capital income so here is the link
for Smart Battery & everyone please give my some input on the web site to
let me know what U think about it we just finished redoing the site, or if U
have any question's, or need help about anything & I will try my best to
answer or just call the shop, thanks & enjoy the site!
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com



                                                       -----Original
Message-----
From: Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Full-sized lead-acid drop-in replacement 12 volt batteries exist. I have
seen them, but I am not sure if they are in full production yet.

         Here is a link to the ALM 12V7 drop-in 12 volt we have been
discussing:
http://www.a123systems.com/products-modules-lead-acid.htm

Bill D.

At 03:10 PM 6/15/2012, you wrote:
>Does anyone know whether A123 plans similar drop-in retrofits for 6v
>golf car and/or 12v group 27/31 marine batteries, chargeable with
>lead-acid chargers, and (perhaps wildly speculating) what such critters
might cost?

>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
>Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
>To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
>webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>|
>| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Willie2
In reply to this post by jack-2
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 12:07:42PM -0400, Jack wrote:

> http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com                                         

Good stuff!  Thanks for posting, Jack.

Convenience has it's price.  Value of the cells in the batteries is
$1.10-$1.50/ah.  The 100ah 12v has $440-$600 worth of cells.  Price is
$1300.  If they could get close to $2/ah, I would be a potential
customer.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  88 days  7 hours 38 minutes

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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by jack-2
On 6/16/2012 11:07 AM, Jack wrote:

> Hello everyone good day!  I work at Smart Battery&  they are in full
> production right now to replace old dead lead acid. We carry Lithium-ion
> that replace lead acid batteries for golf cart , RV's boats of all sizes&
> car's&  trucks also. Here is a link to our web site, if anyone wants to buy
> any please tell my boss Victor Harberson that U would like to place your
> order threw me Jack Riggi so I can make a little extra since I don't get
> payed that much right now since I just started working there!&  my boss said
> I could sell them to make a little extra capital income so here is the link
> for Smart Battery&  everyone please give my some input on the web site to
> let me know what U think about it we just finished redoing the site, or if U
> have any question's, or need help about anything&  I will try my best to
> answer or just call the shop, thanks&  enjoy the site!
> http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com

Thanks for posting this link, Jack. It's an impressive web page, but
there isn't anything except marketing babble. The comparison table in
particular stood out at something thrown together to impress people who
don't know anything about batteries.

The EVDL is a pretty technical list. Do you have any technical data on
the batteries themselves? Performance graphs, test data, how the BMS
works, etc?

--
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
        -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
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Re: New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

jack-2
I don't know all that info. but I will do my best to get it so the list can
see all the specks & maybe have them put on the web page also. thanks for
the input & questions Lee!

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 4:35 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New A123 LiFePO4 (somewhat larger) format

On 6/16/2012 11:07 AM, Jack wrote:

> Hello everyone good day!  I work at Smart Battery&  they are in full
> production right now to replace old dead lead acid. We carry Lithium-ion
> that replace lead acid batteries for golf cart , RV's boats of all sizes&
> car's&  trucks also. Here is a link to our web site, if anyone wants to
> buy
> any please tell my boss Victor Harberson that U would like to place your
> order threw me Jack Riggi so I can make a little extra since I don't get
> payed that much right now since I just started working there!&  my boss
> said
> I could sell them to make a little extra capital income so here is the
> link
> for Smart Battery&  everyone please give my some input on the web site to
> let me know what U think about it we just finished redoing the site, or if
> U
> have any question's, or need help about anything&  I will try my best to
> answer or just call the shop, thanks&  enjoy the site!
> http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com

Thanks for posting this link, Jack. It's an impressive web page, but
there isn't anything except marketing babble. The comparison table in
particular stood out at something thrown together to impress people who
don't know anything about batteries.

The EVDL is a pretty technical list. Do you have any technical data on
the batteries themselves? Performance graphs, test data, how the BMS
works, etc?

--
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
-- Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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