OEM's jump on Trumps 'screw America' wagon

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OEM's jump on Trumps 'screw America' wagon

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
https://electrek.co/2016/11/11/automakers-ask-trump-not-to-make-them-produce-ele
ctric-cars-in-first-lobbying-effort-since-election/

Well guys... looks like all your wait and see BS didn't take long...

So all of the EV folks on this list who voted for Trump raise your hands... and
just quit the list since you have set back the efforts of all of us that
actually champion EV's.

And if anybody says this is political they don't really see that the automakers
and petroleum companies are going to be supporting and producing more and more
petroleum products which will in turn pollute the air, continue to raise the CO2
levels, melt the icecaps etc.

Maybe Jerry Dycus in FL should start building more electric boats....

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719




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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Is anyone in the least surprised by this?

Asia and the EU continue to adopt EVs.  There are even some smaller areas
that seek to convert to a 100% EV fleet.  The US automakers are essentially
saying "No thanks, we don't want to sell cars there."  Their loss.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating.  When the oil shortages of
the mid-1970s hit, Detroit was caught flat-footed.  Their best efforts at
high-efficiency ICEVs were the Ford Pinto and Chevrolet Vega.  If you're too
young to recall them, look them up on Wikipedia and have a good chuckle.

Nissan and Toyota, however, had lots of good, small, efficient cars to sell.
Their dealers were charging hundreds of dollars in "additional dealer
markup" and still the cars kept flying off the lots.  Meanwhile, 13 mpg
Detroit iron languished in the murky sunshine.  

It will happen again.  They just don't learn.

As for who voted for whom, and whether anyone is to blame, that's off topic
and none of anyone's business to boot.  That's why we have secret ballots in
the US, one of the things that ... uh ... make our country great.  :-\

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Nope, not the least bit surprised by this proposal.
This is woefully predictable, with the advent of citizens united allowing
the big oil guys to provide unlimited support for their chosen lawmakers,
and a great amount of misdirection by the "unbiased" media. Is it any
surprise that we now have such scenarios play out?

-TT

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 4:38 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is anyone in the least surprised by this?
>
> Asia and the EU continue to adopt EVs.  There are even some smaller areas
> that seek to convert to a 100% EV fleet.  The US automakers are essentially
> saying "No thanks, we don't want to sell cars there."  Their loss.
>
> I've said this before, but it bears repeating.  When the oil shortages of
> the mid-1970s hit, Detroit was caught flat-footed.  Their best efforts at
> high-efficiency ICEVs were the Ford Pinto and Chevrolet Vega.  If you're
> too
> young to recall them, look them up on Wikipedia and have a good chuckle.
>
> Nissan and Toyota, however, had lots of good, small, efficient cars to
> sell.
> Their dealers were charging hundreds of dollars in "additional dealer
> markup" and still the cars kept flying off the lots.  Meanwhile, 13 mpg
> Detroit iron languished in the murky sunshine.
>
> It will happen again.  They just don't learn.
>
> As for who voted for whom, and whether anyone is to blame, that's off topic
> and none of anyone's business to boot.  That's why we have secret ballots
> in
> the US, one of the things that ... uh ... make our country great.  :-\
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

tomw
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Trump has said many things.  He said Saudi Arabia should give the U.S. free oil for 10 years.  He also plans to open more public lands for fossil fuel extraction.  Which refiners are going to pay for more-expensive-to-produce oil from fracking when Saudia Arabia is giving them oil?  He said he will place tariffs on imports to protect American jobs.  What about companies and their employees who use some of those imports in producing their products?  It is well-known that tariffs benefit some while hurting others.  Life is obviously not as simple as he portrays it.  I think we may be about to receive a large scale lesson in that.  

As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.  And all the rhetoric in the world doesn't change the facts that (1) "tight oil" from shale is just a flash in the pan, due to very high production decline rates, (2) kerogen, or "oil shale" (not "shale oil" which is tight oil) has been worked on for at least 20 years and never proved to be economic to produce, (3) despite record increases by oil companies in investment in exploration, discoveries of new oil fields have declined over the last decade and most conventional oil fields are in decline, meaning production from them is decreasing.  That's why they have been moving into natural gas fracking.  But the oil companies are not going to tell the public that any more than Trump is going to admit that he lies and grossly oversimplifies.  They will bluff as long as they can.  Eventually it will become obvious to everyone that oil supply is shrinking as demand increases due to the resulting increasing prices.  No one knows when the latter will exceed the former, but even the most optimistic fossil fuel cheerleader, Daniel Yergin of CERA who has along history of erroneously optimistic prognostications, says it will likely be within 20-30 years.  That's a lot longer than 2 presidential terms though...

If we wait until demand is starting to exceed supply it will of course be far too late. It takes generations to make such huge transitions in energy supply and transportation, and you need the unrivaled energy density of fossil fuels to help make that transition.  There is no doubt we will be making some large transitions in the future.  The question is only when and how effectively. But the only question in the minds of fossil fuel company CEOs and their ilk is who is going to control the money and the power, and that is what politics is all about.

And then there is climate change.  It's going to be interesting times, as the curse goes.
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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
So far, everything about what Trump will do is speculation. He has said
everything and yet said nothing. While I doubt I will find his policies
resemble anything favorable to EVs, I think he realizes he can't
unilaterally control congress. Campaigning is a game which, evidently,
he is very good at. Being president is another. And many in congress are
concerned about getting reelected in two years with an overall
constituency roughly split 50-50 between dems and repubs. Nothing is
obvious at this point.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "tomw via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc:
Sent: 12-Nov-16 10:15:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

>Trump has said many things.  He said Saudi Arabia should give the U.S.
>free
>oil for 10 years.  He also plans to open more public lands for fossil
>fuel
>extraction.  Which refiners are going to pay for
>more-expensive-to-produce
>oil from fracking when Saudia Arabia is giving them oil?  He said he
>will
>place tariffs on imports to protect American jobs.  What about
>companies and
>their employees who use some of those imports in producing their
>products?
>It is well-known that tariffs benefit some while hurting others.  Life
>is
>obviously not as simple as he portrays it.  I think we may be about to
>receive a large scale lesson in that.
>
>As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.  And all the rhetoric in the
>world
>doesn't change the facts that (1) "tight oil" from shale is just a
>flash in
>the pan, due to very high production decline rates, (2) kerogen, or
>"oil
>shale" (not "shale oil" which is tight oil) has been worked on for at
>least
>20 years and never proved to be economic to produce, (3) despite record
>increases by oil companies in investment in exploration, discoveries of
>new
>oil fields have declined over the last decade and most conventional oil
>fields are in decline, meaning production from them is decreasing.  
>That's
>why they have been moving into natural gas fracking.  But the oil
>companies
>are not going to tell the public that any more than Trump is going to
>admit
>that he lies and grossly oversimplifies.  They will bluff as long as
>they
>can.  Eventually it will become obvious to everyone that oil supply is
>shrinking as demand increases due to the resulting increasing prices.  
>No
>one knows when the latter will exceed the former, but even the most
>optimistic fossil fuel cheerleader, Daniel Yergin of CERA who has along
>history of erroneously optimistic prognostications, says it will likely
>be
>within 20-30 years.  That's a lot longer than 2 presidential terms
>though...
>
>If we wait until demand is starting to exceed supply it will of course
>be
>far too late. It takes generations to make such huge transitions in
>energy
>supply and transportation, and you need the unrivaled energy density of
>fossil fuels to help make that transition.  There is no doubt we will
>be
>making some large transitions in the future.  The question is only when
>and
>how effectively. But the only question in the minds of fossil fuel
>company
>CEOs and their ilk is who is going to control the money and the power,
>and
>that is what politics is all about.
>
>And then there is climate change.  It's going to be interesting times,
>as
>the curse goes.
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OEM-s-jump-on-Trumps-screw-America-wagon-tp4684425p4684437.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by tomw
tomw wrote -
> As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.

WHAT? Are my eyes deceiving me??? You can't actually tell me that you don't know
how the EV1 met its end?

You sound just like Turnip when he says "The concept of global warming was
created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing
non-competitive."
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/265895292191248385?lang=en

Here's a link to the EV1 website http://www.ev1.org/, scroll down to the 2nd
picture, those are EV1's that have been CRUSHED.


Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
tomw wrote -
> As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.

As David says, there are lots of ways to "crush" EVs besides literally
putting them in a car crusher. For instance...

- Auto companies cancel their EV leases, demand cars be returned, and
   destroy them.
- Change environmental regulations to favor ICEs over EVs.
- Kill or cripple the CARB and similar mandates.
- Kill EV tax credits and deductions.
- Lower gas prices, to destroy the demand and interest in EVs.
- Make new regulations to require special expensive infrastructure
   to charge EVs.
- Create new taxes to make EVs "pay their fair share of road taxes".
- File bogus lawsuits against EV makers for making "dangerous" vehicles.
- And of course, a widespread media campaign to discredit EV safety,
   economy, and environmental benefits.

All of these have happened before; so they could easily happen again.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I think Tesla is the wildcard that will help ensure the continuation of EVs.  Tesla is actually nearing the end of their EV tax credits in the next year or two.  If the EV credits are removed, that could actually help Tesla by leveling the playing field.  They would have been facing competition where other manufacturers still had credits and they wouldn't.

Even if other manufacturers are claiming EVs aren't feasible, Tesla will still be there, proving they are.

Artificially low fuel prices could be maintained, but not forever.  Even with fairly low fuel prices, electric vehicles are still making progress.  I'm hoping we are facing a tipping point where enough people have ridden in or driven an electric vehicle that they see how much fun they are.

I think there is one area that electric vehicles could still use help.  It could be encouraged by state or Federal policies.  People living in apartments today struggle to get charging facilities.  It would be helpful to have policies, but I don't think we will see those unless in some progressive states.

Mike


On November 12, 2016 1:22:39 PM MST, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>tomw wrote -
>> As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.
>
>As David says, there are lots of ways to "crush" EVs besides literally
>putting them in a car crusher. For instance...
>
>- Auto companies cancel their EV leases, demand cars be returned, and
>   destroy them.
>- Change environmental regulations to favor ICEs over EVs.
>- Kill or cripple the CARB and similar mandates.
>- Kill EV tax credits and deductions.
>- Lower gas prices, to destroy the demand and interest in EVs.
>- Make new regulations to require special expensive infrastructure
>   to charge EVs.
>- Create new taxes to make EVs "pay their fair share of road taxes".
>- File bogus lawsuits against EV makers for making "dangerous"
>vehicles.
>- And of course, a widespread media campaign to discredit EV safety,
>   economy, and environmental benefits.
>
>All of these have happened before; so they could easily happen again.

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Re: Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Today, beneficial charging policies are instituted mainly at City level
since state and federal level is muc more difficult to move and more
prone to influence from lobbyists, so I suggest that each tries to
convince their city to change policies like for example Palo Alto has.
Once enough cities have adopted, it becomes easier to find support to
get this in at state level with the support of a large nr of cities
behind you
That is how Community Choice Energy is still moving forward despite
push-back by PG&E...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

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proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
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unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
via EV
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 12:47 PM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Automakers lobby for "relief" from EVs

I think Tesla is the wildcard that will help ensure the continuation of
EVs.  Tesla is actually nearing the end of their EV tax credits in the
next year or two.  If the EV credits are removed, that could actually
help Tesla by leveling the playing field.  They would have been facing
competition where other manufacturers still had credits and they
wouldn't.

Even if other manufacturers are claiming EVs aren't feasible, Tesla will
still be there, proving they are.

Artificially low fuel prices could be maintained, but not forever.  Even
with fairly low fuel prices, electric vehicles are still making
progress.  I'm hoping we are facing a tipping point where enough people
have ridden in or driven an electric vehicle that they see how much fun
they are.

I think there is one area that electric vehicles could still use help.
It could be encouraged by state or Federal policies.  People living in
apartments today struggle to get charging facilities.  It would be
helpful to have policies, but I don't think we will see those unless in
some progressive states.

Mike


On November 12, 2016 1:22:39 PM MST, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>tomw wrote -
>> As for crushing cars, that's nonsense.
>
>As David says, there are lots of ways to "crush" EVs besides literally
>putting them in a car crusher. For instance...
>
>- Auto companies cancel their EV leases, demand cars be returned, and
>   destroy them.
>- Change environmental regulations to favor ICEs over EVs.
>- Kill or cripple the CARB and similar mandates.
>- Kill EV tax credits and deductions.
>- Lower gas prices, to destroy the demand and interest in EVs.
>- Make new regulations to require special expensive infrastructure
>   to charge EVs.
>- Create new taxes to make EVs "pay their fair share of road taxes".
>- File bogus lawsuits against EV makers for making "dangerous"
>vehicles.
>- And of course, a widespread media campaign to discredit EV safety,
>   economy, and environmental benefits.
>
>All of these have happened before; so they could easily happen again.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)