OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

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OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
hydrogen anyway
Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert

[image  
https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600

https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
]

For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put the
Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.

Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
“incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing in
the technology.

Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as an
energy storage system for vehicles.

For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
compared to battery-powered vehicles.

Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle getting
its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.

The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
vehicle.

The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car can
take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.

But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.

That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
when comparing the two technologies.

Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:

    “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly by
plugging in,”

But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):

    “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the EV
(electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”

They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
generous incentives.

Electrek’s Take

He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
for one or the other.

It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily investing
in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
become laggers in the EV space.

The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the sooner
they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.

But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and economics,
which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
hard for it ...
[© electrek.co]



http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.

BentMIke



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
>
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> ]
>
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
>
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
>
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> getting
> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
>
> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> vehicle.
>
> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> can
> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
>
> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
>
> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> when comparing the two technologies.
>
> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
>
>     “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> by
> plugging in,”
>
> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
>
>     “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> EV
> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
>
> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> generous incentives.
>
> Electrek’s Take
>
> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
> in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
> automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
> for one or the other.
>
> It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> investing
> in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
> become laggers in the EV space.
>
> The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> sooner
> they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
> battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
>
> But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> economics,
> which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
> hard for it ...
> [© electrek.co]
>
>
>
> http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
> charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for
cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
>
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
>
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
>
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
>
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
>
> BentMIke
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> > hydrogen anyway
> > Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >
> > [image
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
> >
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> > ]
> >
> > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> > the
> > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> >
> > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> > in
> > the technology.
> >
> > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> > an
> > energy storage system for vehicles.
> >
> > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> > compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> >
> > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell
> vehicle
> > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> > getting
> > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the
> hydrogen.
> >
> > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> > vehicle.
> >
> > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car.
> You
> > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> > can
> > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> >
> > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> >
> > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> > when comparing the two technologies.
> >
> > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
> >
> >     “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> > by
> > plugging in,”
> >
> > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
> >
> >     “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> > EV
> > (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> > hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
> >
> > They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer.
> They
> > only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> > generous incentives.
> >
> > Electrek’s Take
> >
> > He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t
> compete
> > in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments
> from
> > automakers and those investments lead to further development and
> production
> > for one or the other.
> >
> > It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> > investing
> > in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
> > become laggers in the EV space.
> >
> > The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> > sooner
> > they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
> > battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> > working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
> >
> > But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> > economics,
> > which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing
> so
> > hard for it ...
> > [© electrek.co]
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> > push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> > Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> > October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> > electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better
> to
> > charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> >  http://evdl.org/archive/
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
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> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Larry Gales
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.

I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."

He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.

Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
>
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
>
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
>
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
>
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
>
> BentMIke
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
>> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
>> hydrogen anyway
>> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>>
>> [image
>> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
>> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
>> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
>>
>> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
>> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
>> ]
>>
>> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
>> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
>> the
>> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>>
>> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
>> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
>> in
>> the technology.
>>
>> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
>> an
>> energy storage system for vehicles.
>>
>> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
>> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>>
>> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
>> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
>> getting
>> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
>>
>> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
>> vehicle.
>>
>> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
>> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
>> can
>> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
>>
>> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
>> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
>>
>> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
>> when comparing the two technologies.
>>
>> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
>> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
>>
>>    “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
>> by
>> plugging in,”
>>
>> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
>> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
>>
>>    “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
>> EV
>> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
>> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
>>
>> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
>> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
>> generous incentives.
>>
>> Electrek’s Take
>>
>> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
>> in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
>> automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
>> for one or the other.
>>
>> It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
>> investing
>> in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
>> become laggers in the EV space.
>>
>> The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
>> sooner
>> they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
>> battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
>> working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
>>
>> But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
>> economics,
>> which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
>> hard for it ...
>> [© electrek.co]
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
>> push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
>> Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
>> October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
>> electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
>> charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>> http://evdl.org/archive/
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> _______________________________________________
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>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Inefficient energy storage device? How so?

Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage.

Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...

I think *that's* pretty silly.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>
> I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."
>
> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.
>
> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
>> to work on HFCVs.
>>
>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>>
>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>>
>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
>> environment and habitat, etc.
>>
>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

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On 31 October 2017 at 06:37, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Inefficient energy storage device? How so?

In the way that efficiency is defined; Energy out of the system,
divided by energy into the system, multiplied by 100.


> Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage.

Where you have excess energy that would otherwise not be utilised,
then even a low efficiency storage system can make sense. It still
makes more sense to use a more efficient storage technology if the
technolgy costs are comparable. Redox batteries for example.


--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hey Mark,

I’m not arguing with you! I was trying to relate what I heard Elon say. I could be wrong but he seemed to be talking in general not just focused on EVs. We used Hydrogen in the Space Shuttle and they even had a Hydrogen fuel cell on board but it you notice Space X used RP1.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2017, at 1:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Inefficient energy storage device? How so?
>
> Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage.
>
> Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...
>
> I think *that's* pretty silly.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>>
>> I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."
>>
>> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.
>>
>> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
>>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
>>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
>>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
>>> to work on HFCVs.
>>>
>>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
>>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>>> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>>>
>>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
>>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
>>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>>>
>>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>>> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
>>> environment and habitat, etc.
>>>
>>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good..
>>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
>>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
>>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
>>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
>>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you

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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hydrogen might be useful for grid storage. Looking at roughly 50%
efficiency is a big hit but if you have surplus energy and no other
practical way to store it, H2 is an alternative. Pumped storage, on the
other hand, is estimated to be 70-80% efficient. A better alternative if
you can create lakes at two different levels - or use abandoned mine
caverns. And just building a better grid will help too, so that energy
can be used immediately, even at long distances.

But if you're creating H2 from methane or natural gas to use in an FCEV,
that's silly. Just burn the natural gas in an ICE. More efficient.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 30-Oct-17 11:37:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are
incredibly dumb

>Inefficient energy storage device? How so?
>
>Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are
>in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen
>for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can
>be used up to grid level storage.
>
>Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery.
>Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and
>disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use
>the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for
>you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or
>an SUV, or ...
>
>I think *that's* pretty silly.
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage
>>device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>>
>>I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult
>>to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you
>>say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack
>>directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen,
>>compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."
>>
>>He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that
>>it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an
>>invisible flame.
>>
>>Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>>
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There
>>>certainly
>>>is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy
>>>which
>>>it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and
>>>transport
>>>medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's
>>>decision
>>>to work on HFCVs.
>>>
>>>A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project
>>>in
>>>mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>>>energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>>>potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global
>>>scale.
>>>
>>>I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an
>>>early
>>>adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did
>>>stuff
>>>like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>>>
>>>He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>>>workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant
>>>ruination of
>>>environment and habitat, etc.
>>>
>>>At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very
>>>good.
>>>You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and
>>>dispense it
>>>with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>>>liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I
>>>think it
>>>would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers
>>>for
>>>pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous
>>>holes
>>>for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>>>electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  
>>>When you
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There is an interesting point of overlap between hydrogen energy storage
and battery energy storage.  The nickel-hydrogen battery has been used
for decades. They are capable of very long life, and high energy
density, and can work in extreme environments. The International Space
Station uses them. The hydrogen is stored in a pressure vessel, like the
tank for a fuel cell.

The nimh cell is a variation of the nickel-hydrogen cell. Rather than
being stored in a separate pressure tank, the H2 is adsorbed onto the
spongy metal hydride electrode inside the cell itself.

--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Right, those are all comments related to EVs.

For an alternative to pump storage, batteries, and other means to store
non-peak-use-time renewables production, and at a scale that eliminates ALL
non renewable generation continentally or globally), hydrogen becomes much
more attractive even given the inefficiencies (and they are as bad as 50%).
This is because storing it at that scale can be safe (underground for
instance or in tanks not subject to embrittlement), and more practical.

Then if you had all this hydrogen it could be useful for other
applications, like HFCEVs. As far as safety goes in EVs, you got to choose
your poison.  Anyway you look at it you are creating a potentially
dangerous energy density, whether it be chemical, or electrical, or
kinetic, or whatever. We already do gasoline and various flammable gasses.
(You can't smell LNG without methyl mercaptan to make it stinky.) Shorting
and melting batteries suck. Mistreat a big flywheel and Euler's moments
send off in a difficult to control fashion.  They are all "bad" when they
get away from you.

Stationary applications are far easier and can be sequestered.

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:45 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage
> device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>
> I just think that they're extremely silly....it's just very difficult to
> make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say
> took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly,
> compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it
> is about half the efficiency."
>
> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's
> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.
>
> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There
> certainly
> > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy
> which
> > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and
> transport
> > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's
> decision
> > to work on HFCVs.
> >
> > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> > potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
> >
> > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an
> early
> > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
> >
> > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> > workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination
> of
> > environment and habitat, etc.
> >
> > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense
> it
> > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous
> holes
> > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When
> you
> > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough
> the
> > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> > production and use.
> >
> > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important
> advantages.
> >
> > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
> >
> > BentMIke
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> >> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> >> hydrogen anyway
> >> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >>
> >> [image
> >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> >> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> >> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
> >>
> >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> >> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> >> ]
> >>
> >> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> >> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> >> the
> >> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> >>
> >> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel
> cell
> >> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily
> investing
> >> in
> >> the technology.
> >>
> >> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell
> as
> >> an
> >> energy storage system for vehicles.
> >>
> >> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> >> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> >>
> >> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell
> vehicle
> >> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> >> getting
> >> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the
> hydrogen.
> >>
> >> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> >> vehicle.
> >>
> >> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car.
> You
> >> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> >> can
> >> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> >>
> >> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> >> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> >>
> >> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> >> when comparing the two technologies.
> >>
> >> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> >> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
> >>
> >>    “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> >> by
> >> plugging in,”
> >>
> >> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> >> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen
> (yet):
> >>
> >>    “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> >> EV
> >> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> >> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
> >>
> >> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer.
> They
> >> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> >> generous incentives.
> >>
> >> Electrek’s Take
> >>
> >> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t
> compete
> >> in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments
> from
> >> automakers and those investments lead to further development and
> production
> >> for one or the other.
> >>
> >> It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> >> investing
> >> in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they
> have
> >> become laggers in the EV space.
> >>
> >> The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> >> sooner
> >> they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments
> into
> >> battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> >> working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
> >>
> >> But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> >> economics,
> >> which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing
> so
> >> hard for it ...
> >> [© electrek.co]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> >> push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> >> Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> >> October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> >> electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's
> better to
> >> charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> >> http://evdl.org/archive/
> >>
> >>
> >> {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
> nabble.com/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> >> group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michael E. Ross
> > (919) 585-6737 Land
> > (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
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>


--
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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

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I really dont get this , but many many people now talk about this instead of ev:s:

Toyota here(Sweden) tries hard to push the Mirai as the "future" of cars, (yes it seems to be a nice hybrd EV, but the battery is ultra small!!) ,

So, Mirai..a car that might be using something like 4 times(?) as much solar panel installations m2 to run the same distances as the Hyundai ionic electric (they are about the same size cars) ,

Toyoda runs multiple tv-ads here about the thing, even many at the same night, also full page ads in EV-magazines, and so on.

 -"Mirai, the electric car that charges as you drive it!",

or the fantastic(?) "-H2O is the new Co2!" -slogan..

it seems to be, in total, 4 hydrogen stations here in the country, so you maybe get about 200 km range from that pump, if you want to make it back again. ..and you dont, :-) because the pump is not in/close to the city.

For example here in the capital city (Stockholm) , you probably at the moment need to go all the way up to the Arlanda airport to fill it up, and then go back home again..   Hmm.
(yes this point can impove a lot and millions of filling stations like the wall outlets might be the future (hmm,, no)  ,  but can the car really improve enough?  or the electrolyzer?)
/ J



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Från: EV <[hidden email]> för Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]>
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Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.

BentMIke



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600
>
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all
> ]
>
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
>
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
>
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> getting
> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
>
> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> vehicle.
>
> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> can
> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
>
> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
>
> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> when comparing the two technologies.
>
> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
>
>     “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> by
> plugging in,”
>
> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
>
>     “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> EV
> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
>
> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> generous incentives.
>
> Electrek’s Take
>
> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
> in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
> automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
> for one or the other.
>
> It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily
> investing
> in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
> become laggers in the EV space.
>
> The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the
> sooner
> they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
> battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
> working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.
>
> But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and
> economics,
> which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
> hard for it ...
> [© electrek.co]
>
>
>
> http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-
> push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
> Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
> October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
> electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
> charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
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Toyoda: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right' ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

[ref
https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@.../msg21413.html
]

% Hoegberg may have only made a small typo, but I thought a few might be
interested in the following dated item. %


[dated]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8534294.stm
Why is the car giant Toyota not Toyoda?
24 February 2010  Kathryn Westcott

[images  
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47367000/jpg/_47367889_toyota.jpg
This 1950s Toyota was launched under the brand name Toyopet

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47370000/gif/_47370455_toyota_226.gifthree
main Japanese scripts
]

Akio Toyoda is in Washington to deal with the crisis at car giant Toyota,
the company set up by his grandfather more than 70 years ago. But why did
the company change its name from Toyoda to Toyota?

The change is largely down to the fact that the word Toyota is associated
with the lucky number eight, according to the company's English-language
website.
Toyota written in Japanese

After learning this, we felt more explanation was needed.

The Toyota Motor Corporation has its origins in a company that manufactured
automated looms for Japan's weaving industry.

"Toyota originated from Toyoda Industries (Kariya) when they started its
automotive division in 1933," explains Dr Seijiro Takeshita, director of
investment banking firm Mizuho International, London.

"Toyoda (in English) and its kanji version were used in the beginning, but
as the company started exporting heavily into the US, it wanted an emblem
that would work in Japanese and English.

"In 1936, the company held a competition for a new name. Toyota was a
popular choice among many. "

According to the company, it received some 27,000 entries.

It says the winning design led to a change in the name of the automobiles
and plants from "Toyoda" to "Toyota."

The name was chosen "because the number of strokes to write Toyota in
Japanese (eight) was thought to bring luck and prosperity," it goes on.

Lucky eight

The modern Japanese writing system uses three main scripts:

    kanji, which is made up of ideographs from Chinese characters

    hiragana, used for native Japanese words, and is phonetic

    katakana, which is mostly used for foreign words

A Romanised script is also sometimes used.

The presentation of kanji is highly symbolic, and an art form in itself. The
name Toyoda is represented by two ideographs - the first "toyo" means
"abundant", while da means "rice field".

The kanji for "da" can also be read as "ta".

Translate Toyoda into katakana and the result contains 10 "brush strokes".
But change it to Toyota, and the result in both katakana and hiragana is
eight strokes (see picture).

Akio Toyoda was facing tough questioning at the US Congress

"Eight is a lucky number in Japanese because when you write it in Chinese
characters, the shape of the character is wider towards the bottom,"
explains Mika Kizu, a lecturer in Japanese at London's School of Oriental
and African Studies (SOAS).

"So people think that it indicates a thing or person is gradually
prospering."

The "lucky eight" theory is certainly an interesting one, says Dr
Christopher Hood, of Cardiff University's Japanese Studies Centre.

He says that it is more usual in Japan to see the company's name written in
the katakana script - unlike, say, Nissan, which is more often written in
kanji.

He also points out another "eight" link with the company.

The company has strong ties with the Japanese Association football club
Nogoya Grampus Eight football, which is based in Nagoya - about an hour from
Toyota's headquarters in Toyota City - and plays home games at the Toyota
Stadium.

The "eight" part of the team's name comes the maru-hachi (circle eight),
which is the city's official symbol.

Doubts

While the company's version of the symbolism certainly sounds good, Soas's
Dr Kizu doubts that this would have been the deciding factor in changing
Toyoda to Toyota.

"I personally doubt that the founder of Toyota or his successor chose
"Toyota" rather than "Toyoda" because of the number of strokes. The Japanese
normally care about the number of strokes for the Chinese characters [kanji]
but not for hiragana," she told the BBC News website.

In recent months, Toyota has recalled more than 8.5m vehicles

A number of Japan experts told the BBC news website that the number eight is
culturally not that significant in Japan. It is more of a Chinese phenomenon
(hence the start date and time for the 2008 Beijing Olympics, on 8 August,
at at 8.08), they said.

And Dr Hood said the BBC News website's phone call to him had prompted him
to do "some more digging on the Japanese websites and the eight theory
doesn't seem to get a mention".

"Japanese sites mention more the internationalisation of the company," he
says.

"It was originally called Toyoda, it seems, but later changed to Toyota
(although it was felt that some in America continued to call it Toyoda for
some time).

"Timing wise this happened around the same time that the town of Koromo,
where the company was based, changed to be Toyota."

In 1959, the city of Koromo, in the Aichi Prefecture, was renamed Toyota
City, after the company that aided its growth in terms of job creation.

Koromo, which was a major producer of silk, had already been associated with
the Toyoda family via the company's Toyoda Automatic Loom Works.

"More appealing"

Another explanation for the name change could be that Toyota simply sounds
better.

"The sound of the word "Toyota" was also deemed more appealing," says the
firm's English-language website.

Dr Kizu concurs: "While there are many "voiced sounds" [such as da] in
Japanese, they are less preferable to voiceless sounds."

The car giant is not the only Japanese firm to have tweaked its name in this
way. The company Bridgestone, for example, was founded by one Mr Ishi
(Stone) bashi (Bridge).

But that is a whole different story.

Additional reporting by Lucy Rodgers.
[© 2017 BBC]




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{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

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Från: EV <[hidden email]> för Hoegberg via EV <[hidden email]>
Skickat: den 5 december 2017 06:23
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Hoegberg
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb


I just dont get it.. why burn the good Toyota brand like this?
To me it seems like a big ZeppelinSeppuku move. :-/

..if it really consumes 4 times (!!) more solar energy per mile (?), then
it is just crazy to push a product like the Mirai in year 2018?

 
Bonus video!
Tony Seba, he did this 8 minute talk about hydrogen vs battery storage for ev:s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23lz9ercqvA 

/ J
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