Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

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Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn
Hi All,
Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug conversion I had a problem last
Friday.

Details and pictures are here:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/

Long story short: The spline on the clutch disk shredded away, and let the
motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive controller, which does not have an
overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might have cut the power sooner than
my foot on the throttle).

The motor has some small ceramic looking pieces that fell to the bottom of
it; I believe they are balancing putty, as the comm looks fine.

The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I haven't tested it with a load.

Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use it? Or, should I mail it off
somewhere and get it overhauled? If so, where? (back to Netgain?)

thanks!
--corbin
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Roland Wiench
Many local motor shops normally balance a motor after it is repair.  The
shop I have can even balance engines.  Take the rotor to the motor shops and
it only takes about 15 minutes to balance the rotor.

If you think you have field winding damage from the balancing putty, then
take the whole motor to the motor shop.

If the rotor is found damage, they will send it to the Warfield company
which sells the NET GAIN motors to the dealers.

My GE-11 motor which was running for 10 years from 75 to 85 which was the
recommended time to pull the motor and have the rotor turn and undercut,
replace the brushes and brush springs if require, replace the bearings, meg
test all rotor and field windings and have it re-enamel.

Every time a motor is re-condition, the motor shops checks and balances the
rotor.

Install a speed sensor which is made by NET GAIN for the WarP motors.  If
the front of your WarP motor is not tap for the bolts that hold on the speed
sensor, this is the time to tap thread holes in the front motor cover while
it is off the motor.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?


> Hi All,
> Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug conversion I had a problem last
> Friday.
>
> Details and pictures are here:
> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/
>
> Long story short: The spline on the clutch disk shredded away, and let the
> motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive controller, which does not have an
> overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might have cut the power sooner than
> my foot on the throttle).
>
> The motor has some small ceramic looking pieces that fell to the bottom of
> it; I believe they are balancing putty, as the comm looks fine.
>
> The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I haven't tested it with a load.
>
> Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use it? Or, should I mail it off
> somewhere and get it overhauled? If so, where? (back to Netgain?)
>
> thanks!
> --corbin
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120430/fdf23fad/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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|
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn
Hi Roland,
Thanks for the reply; I guess I'm mainly curious if there is anything I can
do myself to see if things are alright. How hard is it to balance a motor
or inspect it for damage?

I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any good since the WarP
Drive controller does not have an input for it.

corbin

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Many local motor shops normally balance a motor after it is repair.  The
> shop I have can even balance engines.  Take the rotor to the motor shops
> and
> it only takes about 15 minutes to balance the rotor.
>
> If you think you have field winding damage from the balancing putty, then
> take the whole motor to the motor shop.
>
> If the rotor is found damage, they will send it to the Warfield company
> which sells the NET GAIN motors to the dealers.
>
> My GE-11 motor which was running for 10 years from 75 to 85 which was the
> recommended time to pull the motor and have the rotor turn and undercut,
> replace the brushes and brush springs if require, replace the bearings, meg
> test all rotor and field windings and have it re-enamel.
>
> Every time a motor is re-condition, the motor shops checks and balances the
> rotor.
>
> Install a speed sensor which is made by NET GAIN for the WarP motors.  If
> the front of your WarP motor is not tap for the bolts that hold on the
> speed
> sensor, this is the time to tap thread holes in the front motor cover while
> it is off the motor.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:32 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
>
>
> > Hi All,
> > Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug conversion I had a problem last
> > Friday.
> >
> > Details and pictures are here:
> >
> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/
> >
> > Long story short: The spline on the clutch disk shredded away, and let
> the
> > motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive controller, which does not have an
> > overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might have cut the power sooner
> than
> > my foot on the throttle).
> >
> > The motor has some small ceramic looking pieces that fell to the bottom
> of
> > it; I believe they are balancing putty, as the comm looks fine.
> >
> > The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I haven't tested it with a load.
> >
> > Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use it? Or, should I mail it off
> > somewhere and get it overhauled? If so, where? (back to Netgain?)
> >
> > thanks!
> > --corbin
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120430/fdf23fad/attachment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Roger Stockton
corbin dunn wrote:

> I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any good since the
> WarP Drive controller does not have an input for it.

You can do as one would with a Curtis or other controller that lacks a rev limiter function and use an external speed switch to reduce the throttle signal.  This one is a 2-level model, with 2 adjustable set points:

<http://www.isspro.com/proddetail.php?prod=R4902>

(instructions here <http://www.isspro.com/installation/IS006.pdf>)  

You could set a lower speed setpoint to connect a resistor in parallel with the throttle so that the throttle command is limited to perhaps half throttle or less, and use the second setpoint to disable the controller or drop out the contactor if reducing the throttle command fails to prevent the RPM from climbing further.

Cheers,

Roger.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by corbin dunn
Hello Corbin,

The motor balancing machine is a enclose unit with a laser light that marks
the light side of a rotating shaft. To check the balance of the rotor took
about 5 minutes to do and cost me $5.00.  The rotor did not need any
balancing up to 6000 rpm which is indicated on a computer indicator.

I also had them test the motor coupler, motor coupler attach to the rotor,
flywheel attach to the coupler and pressure plate without the clutch which I
assembly myself and it test ok up to 6000 rpm too.

There is no way I could check out this balance at this rpm rating unless you
had specific tools.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?


> Hi Roland,
> Thanks for the reply; I guess I'm mainly curious if there is anything I
> can
> do myself to see if things are alright. How hard is it to balance a motor
> or inspect it for damage?
>
> I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any good since the
> WarP
> Drive controller does not have an input for it.
>
> corbin
>
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Many local motor shops normally balance a motor after it is repair.  The
> > shop I have can even balance engines.  Take the rotor to the motor shops
> > and
> > it only takes about 15 minutes to balance the rotor.
> >
> > If you think you have field winding damage from the balancing putty,
> > then
> > take the whole motor to the motor shop.
> >
> > If the rotor is found damage, they will send it to the Warfield company
> > which sells the NET GAIN motors to the dealers.
> >
> > My GE-11 motor which was running for 10 years from 75 to 85 which was
> > the
> > recommended time to pull the motor and have the rotor turn and undercut,
> > replace the brushes and brush springs if require, replace the bearings,
> > meg
> > test all rotor and field windings and have it re-enamel.
> >
> > Every time a motor is re-condition, the motor shops checks and balances
> > the
> > rotor.
> >
> > Install a speed sensor which is made by NET GAIN for the WarP motors.
> > If
> > the front of your WarP motor is not tap for the bolts that hold on the
> > speed
> > sensor, this is the time to tap thread holes in the front motor cover
> > while
> > it is off the motor.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
> > To: <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:32 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > > Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug conversion I had a problem last
> > > Friday.
> > >
> > > Details and pictures are here:
> > >
> > http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/
> > >
> > > Long story short: The spline on the clutch disk shredded away, and let
> > the
> > > motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive controller, which does not have
> > > an
> > > overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might have cut the power sooner
> > than
> > > my foot on the throttle).
> > >
> > > The motor has some small ceramic looking pieces that fell to the
> > > bottom
> > of
> > > it; I believe they are balancing putty, as the comm looks fine.
> > >
> > > The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I haven't tested it with a
> > > load.
> > >
> > > Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use it? Or, should I mail it
> > > off
> > > somewhere and get it overhauled? If so, where? (back to Netgain?)
> > >
> > > thanks!
> > > --corbin
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > >
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120430/fdf23fad/attachment.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > > |
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Tom Keenan
If you just want to check for imbalance, you can check with a mechanical reed vibrometer or one of the newer electronic versions.  They are available for about $150 on eBay.

Both types of vibrometers will indicate the RPM as well.  The reed style takes a bit of practice to get it right, but the electronic types give a quick reading.

Re-balancing the motor if it is out of spec is another thing.  As Roland says - best left for a competent shop.

Tom Keenan


--- On Mon, 4/30/12, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Roland Wiench <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 3:25 PM
> Hello Corbin,
>
> The motor balancing machine is a enclose unit with a laser
> light that marks
> the light side of a rotating shaft. To check the balance of
> the rotor took
> about 5 minutes to do and cost me $5.00.  The rotor did
> not need any
> balancing up to 6000 rpm which is indicated on a computer
> indicator.
>
> I also had them test the motor coupler, motor coupler attach
> to the rotor,
> flywheel attach to the coupler and pressure plate without
> the clutch which I
> assembly myself and it test ok up to 6000 rpm too.
>
> There is no way I could check out this balance at this rpm
> rating unless you
> had specific tools.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what
> to do?
>
>
> > Hi Roland,
> > Thanks for the reply; I guess I'm mainly curious if
> there is anything I
> > can
> > do myself to see if things are alright. How hard is it
> to balance a motor
> > or inspect it for damage?
> >
> > I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any
> good since the
> > WarP
> > Drive controller does not have an input for it.
> >
> > corbin
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Many local motor shops normally balance a motor
> after it is repair.  The
> > > shop I have can even balance engines.  Take
> the rotor to the motor shops
> > > and
> > > it only takes about 15 minutes to balance the
> rotor.
> > >
> > > If you think you have field winding damage from
> the balancing putty,
> > > then
> > > take the whole motor to the motor shop.
> > >
> > > If the rotor is found damage, they will send it to
> the Warfield company
> > > which sells the NET GAIN motors to the dealers.
> > >
> > > My GE-11 motor which was running for 10 years from
> 75 to 85 which was
> > > the
> > > recommended time to pull the motor and have the
> rotor turn and undercut,
> > > replace the brushes and brush springs if require,
> replace the bearings,
> > > meg
> > > test all rotor and field windings and have it
> re-enamel.
> > >
> > > Every time a motor is re-condition, the motor
> shops checks and balances
> > > the
> > > rotor.
> > >
> > > Install a speed sensor which is made by NET GAIN
> for the WarP motors.
> > > If
> > > the front of your WarP motor is not tap for the
> bolts that hold on the
> > > speed
> > > sensor, this is the time to tap thread holes in
> the front motor cover
> > > while
> > > it is off the motor.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
> > > To: <[hidden email]>
> > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:32 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor --
> what to do?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > > Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug
> conversion I had a problem last
> > > > Friday.
> > > >
> > > > Details and pictures are here:
> > > >
> > > http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/
> > > >
> > > > Long story short: The spline on the clutch
> disk shredded away, and let
> > > the
> > > > motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive
> controller, which does not have
> > > > an
> > > > overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might
> have cut the power sooner
> > > than
> > > > my foot on the throttle).
> > > >
> > > > The motor has some small ceramic looking
> pieces that fell to the
> > > > bottom
> > > of
> > > > it; I believe they are balancing putty, as
> the comm looks fine.
> > > >
> > > > The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I
> haven't tested it with a
> > > > load.
> > > >
> > > > Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use
> it? Or, should I mail it
> > > > off
> > > > somewhere and get it overhauled? If so,
> where? (back to Netgain?)
> > > >
> > > > thanks!
> > > > --corbin

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn
Cool - thanks Tom and Roland. I also got ahold of George from Netgain via email. The motor doesn't seem to vibrate much when I run it at 12v, so I'm going to put it back in the car and test it...if it vibrates excessively, then I'll be taking it back out and getting it balanced. I found a shop in Palo Alto that looks like they can do it, so I won't have to mail it far away.

Thanks everyone for the advice!


-corbin

On Apr 30, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Tom Keenan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you just want to check for imbalance, you can check with a mechanical reed vibrometer or one of the newer electronic versions.  They are available for about $150 on eBay.
>
> Both types of vibrometers will indicate the RPM as well.  The reed style takes a bit of practice to get it right, but the electronic types give a quick reading.
>
> Re-balancing the motor if it is out of spec is another thing.  As Roland says - best left for a competent shop.
>
> Tom Keenan
>
>
> --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: Roland Wiench <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 3:25 PM
>> Hello Corbin,
>>
>> The motor balancing machine is a enclose unit with a laser
>> light that marks
>> the light side of a rotating shaft. To check the balance of
>> the rotor took
>> about 5 minutes to do and cost me $5.00.  The rotor did
>> not need any
>> balancing up to 6000 rpm which is indicated on a computer
>> indicator.
>>
>> I also had them test the motor coupler, motor coupler attach
>> to the rotor,
>> flywheel attach to the coupler and pressure plate without
>> the clutch which I
>> assembly myself and it test ok up to 6000 rpm too.
>>
>> There is no way I could check out this balance at this rpm
>> rating unless you
>> had specific tools.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what
>> to do?
>>
>>
>>> Hi Roland,
>>> Thanks for the reply; I guess I'm mainly curious if
>> there is anything I
>>> can
>>> do myself to see if things are alright. How hard is it
>> to balance a motor
>>> or inspect it for damage?
>>>
>>> I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any
>> good since the
>>> WarP
>>> Drive controller does not have an input for it.
>>>
>>> corbin
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many local motor shops normally balance a motor
>> after it is repair.  The
>>>> shop I have can even balance engines.  Take
>> the rotor to the motor shops
>>>> and
>>>> it only takes about 15 minutes to balance the
>> rotor.
>>>>
>>>> If you think you have field winding damage from
>> the balancing putty,
>>>> then
>>>> take the whole motor to the motor shop.
>>>>
>>>> If the rotor is found damage, they will send it to
>> the Warfield company
>>>> which sells the NET GAIN motors to the dealers.
>>>>
>>>> My GE-11 motor which was running for 10 years from
>> 75 to 85 which was
>>>> the
>>>> recommended time to pull the motor and have the
>> rotor turn and undercut,
>>>> replace the brushes and brush springs if require,
>> replace the bearings,
>>>> meg
>>>> test all rotor and field windings and have it
>> re-enamel.
>>>>
>>>> Every time a motor is re-condition, the motor
>> shops checks and balances
>>>> the
>>>> rotor.
>>>>
>>>> Install a speed sensor which is made by NET GAIN
>> for the WarP motors.
>>>> If
>>>> the front of your WarP motor is not tap for the
>> bolts that hold on the
>>>> speed
>>>> sensor, this is the time to tap thread holes in
>> the front motor cover
>>>> while
>>>> it is off the motor.
>>>>
>>>> Roland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:32 AM
>>>> Subject: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor --
>> what to do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> Well, after 15k miles on my Plug Bug
>> conversion I had a problem last
>>>>> Friday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Details and pictures are here:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/04/plug-bug-15000-miles-then-a-breakdown/
>>>>>
>>>>> Long story short: The spline on the clutch
>> disk shredded away, and let
>>>> the
>>>>> motor free spin. I have a WarP Drive
>> controller, which does not have
>>>>> an
>>>>> overspeed sensor input (if it did, it might
>> have cut the power sooner
>>>> than
>>>>> my foot on the throttle).
>>>>>
>>>>> The motor has some small ceramic looking
>> pieces that fell to the
>>>>> bottom
>>>> of
>>>>> it; I believe they are balancing putty, as
>> the comm looks fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> The motor seems to be spinning okay, but I
>> haven't tested it with a
>>>>> load.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it okay to drop it back in my car and use
>> it? Or, should I mail it
>>>>> off
>>>>> somewhere and get it overhauled? If so,
>> where? (back to Netgain?)
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks!
>>>>> --corbin
>
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

martinwinlow

On 1 May 2012, at 06:22, corbin dunn wrote:

> Cool - thanks Tom and Roland. I also got ahold of George from Netgain via email. The motor doesn't seem to vibrate much when I run it at 12v, so I'm going to put it back in the car and test it...if it vibrates excessively, then I'll be taking it back out and getting it balanced. I found a shop in Palo Alto that looks like they can do it, so I won't have to mail it far away.
>
> Thanks everyone for the advice!
>
>
> -corbin

Hi Corbin,

You did what I would have done - tried the motor on its own, well secured! -  at low volts to see if there is any noise or vibration.  In the case of the latter, there should be none at all.  Using an RPM meter, I would then try it at progressively higher speeds by just applying ever more voltage from your pack up to around 5k RPM.  If there is no sign of vibration then I would say you were lucky and caused no significant damage.

As for the putty, as I have mentioned before, it is quite feasible that all these motors lose bits all the time but if they are small enough to go through the screen we never know about it. It is only when a lump comes off and is big enough to get trapped by the screen that start to worry!

Did your original coupler have any springs in it to absorb drive-line shocks?  If not, it might be worth replacing your clutch with a coupler that does have this facet.   It is (and has been) an arguable improvement on a rigid coupler.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Cruisin
In reply to this post by corbin dunn
Hey Corbin, does this mean you wont be at the May 12 show in SJ? In hind site, the AC-50 would have been a better choice. However, you need to determine what caused the clutch spline to wear like it did. Overreving probably isnt the culpert. Adapter could be off center (who made it?) and the coupler could be not made properly. It also could be a out of balance of the flywheel and clutch assembly. Now you see why I do all clutchless. No need for one in a VW. Hope to see you at the show.
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

David Ladd
I don't see how an AC-50 would have been any different, it was a clutch failure.  or do you mean that because the AC-50 is such lower powered it would not have stressed the clutch enough to strip it?

http://www.evalbum.com/4021


>________________________________
> From: Cruisin <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 7:33 AM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
>
>Hey Corbin, does this mean you wont be at the May 12 show in SJ? In hind
>site, the AC-50 would have been a better choice. However, you need to
>determine what caused the clutch spline to wear like it did. Overreving
>probably isnt the culpert. Adapter could be off center (who made it?) and
>the coupler could be not made properly. It also could be a out of balance of
>the flywheel and clutch assembly. Now you see why I do all clutchless. No
>need for one in a VW. Hope to see you at the show.
>

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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by martinwinlow

On May 1, 2012, at 1:43 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 1 May 2012, at 06:22, corbin dunn wrote:
>
>> Cool - thanks Tom and Roland. I also got ahold of George from Netgain via email. The motor doesn't seem to vibrate much when I run it at 12v, so I'm going to put it back in the car and test it...if it vibrates excessively, then I'll be taking it back out and getting it balanced. I found a shop in Palo Alto that looks like they can do it, so I won't have to mail it far away.
>>
>> Thanks everyone for the advice!
>>
>>
>> -corbin
>
> Hi Corbin,
>
> You did what I would have done - tried the motor on its own, well secured! -  at low volts to see if there is any noise or vibration.  In the case of the latter, there should be none at all.  Using an RPM meter, I would then try it at progressively higher speeds by just applying ever more voltage from your pack up to around 5k RPM.  If there is no sign of vibration then I would say you were lucky and caused no significant damage.
>
> As for the putty, as I have mentioned before, it is quite feasible that all these motors lose bits all the time but if they are small enough to go through the screen we never know about it. It is only when a lump comes off and is big enough to get trapped by the screen that start to worry!
>
> Did your original coupler have any springs in it to absorb drive-line shocks?  If not, it might be worth replacing your clutch with a coupler that does have this facet.   It is (and has been) an arguable improvement on a rigid coupler.

Hi Martin,
The coupler doesn't have any springs -- I think you are talking about the clutch pad/disk having springs in it. The answer is no, the old and new don't have any. Yes, I think they would help soften the torque. The new clutch pad I have has a much longer shaft, so it should have more contact w/the splines on the transmission shaft and hopefully stay together longer!

I don't have any way of getting the RPM up to 5k without the controller...so I don't have much choice but to drop it together and see how it goes.

corbin


>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by Cruisin
Hi Al,

On May 1, 2012, at 7:33 AM, Cruisin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey Corbin, does this mean you wont be at the May 12 show in SJ?

I'll know after I get it back together this week if it works or not...I'll let you know if I can make the show!

> In hind
> site, the AC-50 would have been a better choice.

I did consider the AC-50 back when I was putting things together; I just don't like the lower voltage requirement, and it just doesn't seem like it would be quite as "peppy" as a 1000amp controller + the warp 9. I really like jamming up Highway 17 at 55-60 mph, and I think the AC-50 would make the car feel more like an original VW bug instead of the slightly faster bug I have now. However, the AC-50 would have been sweet for regen down the hill!

If I did it over, I probably would have gone with the AC-50.

> However, you need to
> determine what caused the clutch spline to wear like it did. Overreving
> probably isnt the culpert.

It definitely wasn't the over rev that caused it; the splines breaking were the result of the over rev. I think it was just a cummy clutch plate, without splines that were hardened well enough.

> Adapter could be off center (who made it?) and
> the coupler could be not made properly.

The adapter/coupler all seem fine and aligned properly. I don't think that was the problem.


> It also could be a out of balance of
> the flywheel and clutch assembly. Now you see why I do all clutchless. No
> need for one in a VW. Hope to see you at the show.

I really prefer the clutch; I've driving clutchless, and it is just way to slow to shift. Sure ,the clutch was the source of the problem for this failure...but I blame the clutch pad/plate.

corbin



>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Possibly-over-sped-Warp-9-motor-what-to-do-tp4598656p4600863.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

jyanof
In reply to this post by Cruisin
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Cruisin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  However, you need to determine what caused the clutch spline to wear like
> it did.


Corbin hasn't mentioned if the spline wore or not, but I do enjoy a
root-cause and corrective-action investigation  (can you tell i'm an
engineer?)

Some failure modes i can think of:
1. overload shearing; root cause: too much torque or material problem (low
hardness)
2. reduced spline cross section from spline wear leading to reduced
strength and shearing - root cause: some sort of misalignment that causes
relative motion.
3. failure in tooth bending from low cycle fatigue; root cause: high stress
from large peak loads (or undersized spline)
4. failure in tooth bending from high cycle fatigure; root cause: some sort
of misalignment that causes an alternating stress to be applied at a high
frequency, like once per shaft rev.

1 is probably out since I presume the amount of torque that failed the
spline has been applied before.  Not like the controller output was just
increased or something.

2 might be a possiblity if there's a bunch of metal chips and your sheared
spline teeth from the clutch disk appear worn down (if you could still find
them)

3 or 4 might be a possiblity if your sheared spline teeth look intact other
than the sheared area.  would be tough to tell the difference between the
two without a SEM (at least, that's what we use at work).  And, the
surfaces might be obliterated from bouncing around in there after the
'event'.

anyway, just some ideas, and i'm sure there are other possibilities i
haven't thought of.

joe
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

corbin dunn

On May 1, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Joe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Cruisin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> However, you need to determine what caused the clutch spline to wear like
>> it did.
>
>
> Corbin hasn't mentioned if the spline wore or not, but I do enjoy a
> root-cause and corrective-action investigation  (can you tell i'm an
> engineer?)
>

Hi Joe,

I did mention it...the splines were simply gone! They just got ground off...I assume from them giving out from excessive torque and then the plate just spinning/grinding them off on the (more) hardened transmission shaft. There's also  a picture on my website.  They shouldn't wear out from going in/out use ...once the spline is mated in the transmission, it is there, and doesn't move in/out.

> Some failure modes i can think of:
> 1. overload shearing; root cause: too much torque or material problem (low
> hardness)

This is my suspicion...but it is impossible to know why the splines failed without doing some kind of hardness test on the material.

Consider that these are VW clutch plates...they are in no way designed for an electric motor's torque, and were instead designed for a 50hp VW engine, so I'm not surprised it didn't survive.

The newer plate (see picture on my website) has a much longer area for the splines...I think that will allow more torque and last longer (forever?)

> 2. reduced spline cross section from spline wear leading to reduced
> strength and shearing - root cause: some sort of misalignment that causes
> relative motion.
> 3. failure in tooth bending from low cycle fatigue; root cause: high stress
> from large peak loads (or undersized spline)
> 4. failure in tooth bending from high cycle fatigure; root cause: some sort
> of misalignment that causes an alternating stress to be applied at a high
> frequency, like once per shaft rev.

Alignment should be good.

>
> 1 is probably out since I presume the amount of torque that failed the
> spline has been applied before.  Not like the controller output was just
> increased or something.

Yeah, I've definitely pushed it harder before.

>
> 2 might be a possiblity if there's a bunch of metal chips and your sheared
> spline teeth from the clutch disk appear worn down (if you could still find
> them)

The teeth on the clutch disk are all gone....they were ground away by the male spline input from the transmission side. The transmission spline shaft looks fine (no excessive wear that I could tell). However, it might be out of tolerances by now... the car is from 1969 :)

corbin

>
> 3 or 4 might be a possiblity if your sheared spline teeth look intact other
> than the sheared area.  would be tough to tell the difference between the
> two without a SEM (at least, that's what we use at work).  And, the
> surfaces might be obliterated from bouncing around in there after the
> 'event'.
>
> anyway, just some ideas, and i'm sure there are other possibilities i
> haven't thought of.
>
> joe
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

jyanof
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:17 PM, corbin dunn <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I did mention it...the splines were simply gone! They just got ground
> off...I assume from them giving out from excessive torque and then the
> plate just spinning/grinding them off on the (more) hardened transmission
> shaft. There's also  a picture on my website.  They shouldn't wear out from
> going in/out use ...once the spline is mated in the transmission, it is
> there, and doesn't move in/out.
>

ok, I was trying to distinguish between two different failure modes

1.  the splines wear (even though the splines don't move axially, there can
be relative motion if the two shafts are misaligned or offset and create
wear - it's near impossible to be perfect, you'll always have some motion).
 they wear away until the splines are thin and can't support the load
anymore.

and

2. a failure mode from either overload or fatigue where the problem may not
have been wear.

all that metal has to go somewhere - if there was wear, i'd expect to see a
lot of metal chips from those teeth slowly grinding down.  otherwise, you'd
probably see the teeth from the female spline in between the teeth of the
male spline, though it's definitely possible that the teeth sheared off and
then got ground up in the aftermath.

Hm, a new thought.  If your splines weren't greased, there'd be no grease
to capture all the debris.  Even still, If there was a sudden failure and
all those teeth got ground up, there'd surely be a lot of junk in there -
that's a lot of metal.  If there really isn't much debris at all, that
seems to indicate that the material wore away over time giving ample
opportunity to make its way out of the area.


the impact on you going forward is that a wear problem might exist even if
you have a longer spline (in fact, a longer spline is more sensitive to
misalignment).  however, a strength problem would be solved with longer
splines - should pretty much be linear; twice the length can transmit twice
the load.
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by corbin dunn
corbin dunn wrote:

> I did mention it...the splines were simply gone! They just got ground
> off...I assume from them giving out from excessive torque and then the
> plate just spinning/grinding them off on the (more) hardened transmission
> shaft. There's also  a picture on my website.

Not everyone will remember your website URL offhand ;^>

> Consider that these are VW clutch plates...they are in no way designed for
> an electric motor's torque, and were instead designed for a 50hp VW
> engine, so I'm not surprised it didn't survive.

Actually, they aren't "VW" clutch plates; they are aftermarket clutch discs for a VW.  I've never seen an original equipment VW disc without a sprung hub.

On your website, you refer to Kennedy Stage 2 clutch parts, but that refers to the pressure plate rather than the disc (although the discs you have may both also be Kennedy products).

I would suggest two things:

- the spline will wear due to the disc and input shaft rotating relative to one another; a sprung hub OEM-type clutch disc is likely to greatly reduce or eliminate this wear mechanism

- while the stock VW pressure plate would likely allow the clutch to slip under the torque that your 9" can apply when fed 1000A, the 2100lb Kennedy Stage 2 pressure plate probably won't.  This means that if the spline wear is due to the higher-than-stock motor torque, a weaker clutch would actually be of benefit because in a severe torque situation the clutch would slip (wearing the friction lining) rather than shearing off the splines on the clutch disc hub.

Given the ready availability of an OEM style sprung-hub clutch disc and the low cost ($30 and up), I wouldn't even consider putting the motor back in without installing one.  It just looked like way too much work to get the motor out (though I'm not sure why you pulled the motor and tranny rather than the motor alone, I assume you had your reasons) to make it worth doing that job again sooner than necessary, beside the definite risk of 'sploding your motor by over-reving it again next time the spline lets go.

Cheers,

Roger.



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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Cruisin
In reply to this post by David Ladd
You would understand if you had 15 years experience building EV conversions. Been all through the DC and clutch. The AC has a longer shaft for the coupler, or did you not know that, and a lot less vibration due to the AC characteristics. How many EV production cars use DC. None. Additionaly, tha AC runs at 7k RPM a lot smoother than a DC at 4K RPM max. I am running a AC-50 almost 25k miles after conversion with no problems whatsoever. It is the first car ever to be powered with Li-ion batteries with a 34kwh pack using the 18650 cells prior to Tesla's selection of the same cells. By the way, your statement about the power stripping the splines out of the clutch is way out in never never land. I dont know where you get this information. Can you please explain your experience that you have that would explain how that could be with details. With all drag machines we have designed, I have not seen that ever.
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

Voltswagon
In reply to this post by Roger Stockton
When mine wore out (after 2K miles) it was obvious that they had worn, not broken off.  There was lots of tooth dust all over.  Whether the cause was misalignment or just weak material, who knows?  
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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Roger Stockton

On 30 Apr 2012, at 19:24, Roger Stockton wrote:

> corbin dunn wrote:
>
>> I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any good since the
>> WarP Drive controller does not have an input for it.
>
> You can do as one would with a Curtis or other controller that lacks a rev limiter function and use an external speed switch to reduce the throttle signal.  This one is a 2-level model, with 2 adjustable set points:
>
> <http://www.isspro.com/proddetail.php?prod=R4902>
>
> (instructions here <http://www.isspro.com/installation/IS006.pdf>)  
>
> You could set a lower speed setpoint to connect a resistor in parallel with the throttle so that the throttle command is limited to perhaps half throttle or less, and use the second setpoint to disable the controller or drop out the contactor if reducing the throttle command fails to prevent the RPM from climbing further.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.

Yikes! - $256?!

Now there's a need for an open source alternative, if ever I saw one!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
H Roland,

I assume you mean "There is no way I could check out this balance < and fix it > at this rpm rating unless you had specific tools" as all you have to do to see if your motor is balanced at any specific rpm is to run it at that rpm and see if it vibrates.... No?  Unfortunately, fix ing it if there is any vibe is another matter entirely.  But if the moro is ok, it is much easier to send off the clutch (less friction plate), coupler and flywheel to be balanced on their own.

MW

On 30 Apr 2012, at 23:25, Roland Wiench wrote:

> Hello Corbin,
>
> The motor balancing machine is a enclose unit with a laser light that marks
> the light side of a rotating shaft. To check the balance of the rotor took
> about 5 minutes to do and cost me $5.00.  The rotor did not need any
> balancing up to 6000 rpm which is indicated on a computer indicator.
>
> I also had them test the motor coupler, motor coupler attach to the rotor,
> flywheel attach to the coupler and pressure plate without the clutch which I
> assembly myself and it test ok up to 6000 rpm too.
>
> There is no way I could check out this balance at this rpm rating unless you
> had specific tools.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "corbin dunn" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Possibly over sped Warp 9 motor -- what to do?
>
>
>> Hi Roland,
>> Thanks for the reply; I guess I'm mainly curious if there is anything I
>> can
>> do myself to see if things are alright. How hard is it to balance a motor
>> or inspect it for damage?
>>
>> I do have a speed sensor, however, it doesn't do me any good since the
>> WarP
>> Drive controller does not have an input for it.
>>
>> corbin





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