Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

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Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi all.

question for the EV connoiseurs out there:

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf with a ChaDeMo port.  Are there any
portable V2G units that can plug in and provide 2KW of power?
Alternately, are there any other EVs that support such a thing?

I saw such a thing at a Nissan booth at a recent event.
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
but it didn't look like it was aimed at mobile use.
And evidently they have a new system which would meet my needs:
http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/product_news/new173.html
but it's only available in Japan for now.

The application is a bounce house at a green fair; evidently those
need 2KW during inflation, and 1KW during operation
( see http://partytime-rentals.com/learning-center/bounce-house-power-requirements/
).

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You can only _continuously_ draw 80% of the maximum amperage out of any
household circuit. (The wiring over heats.)
Since a large fraction of 115 volt outlets have a 15 amp breaker, (some
have a 20 amp) you can only draw 15 x 115 x 0.8 = 1380 watts.
On a 20 amp, 20 x 115 x 0.8 = 1840 watts.

For a limited duty cycle (short time) you can draw the full amperage,
but only for a very limited time.

That is why every 115v heater that you can buy in the store is rated at
1600 watts, at the very most.
Doesn't matter how big or how fancy or how much they cost, they all are
limited to 1600 watt output.

Bill D.

On 2/1/2018 1:59 PM, Dan Kegel via EV wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> question for the EV connoiseurs out there:
>
> I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf with a ChaDeMo port.  Are there any
> portable V2G units that can plug in and provide 2KW of power?
> Alternately, are there any other EVs that support such a thing?
>
> I saw such a thing at a Nissan booth at a recent event.
> http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
> but it didn't look like it was aimed at mobile use.
> And evidently they have a new system which would meet my needs:
> http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/product_news/new173.html
> but it's only available in Japan for now.
>
> The application is a bounce house at a green fair; evidently those
> need 2KW during inflation, and 1KW during operation
> ( see http://partytime-rentals.com/learning-center/bounce-house-power-requirements/
> ).
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Dan,
Even though an inverter off the Leaf pack would be the ideal way for
this application,
it is likely also a very costly way for a one-time event, unless you are
buying it to be
prepared with your own home's power backup.
I own SURT UPS that accept 2x 192V batteries to create an output that
needs to go through a transformer to give 2x 120V as most USA systems
expect,
so I plan on using a Leaf battery that I have sitting around as
"powerwall" in conjunction with this UPS and a transformer to achieve
backup for my home
but for your 1-2 kW mobile setup, I would suggest following:

- find a robust 3-5 kVA UPS that has no problem running the "inflate"
cycle
and which works off of low voltage batteries, typically you will find
that
it needs 24V.

- find two EVs such as the Leaf that can be parked close enough to the
UPS to run 2 sets of jump cables,
from one EV to one 12V battery and from the second EV to the second 12V
battery to give up to 24V, 80Amp of charging for the UPS.
Make sure you use beefy cables with clean clamps, preferably even attach
Anderson connectors so the jump cables can't slip off the UPS batteries.

-place both EVs in "Ready - park" mode and lock them with the physical
key that is hidden in the FOB, so you can leave them behind while they
continue to power the UPS, drawing about 1kW which adds up to 5% of
charge loss per hour of powering the UPS.

- make sure you start with the UPS batteries full for the first minutes
when you have to deliver the 2kVA to the inflation cycle, after that the
EVs should have no problem maintaining the UPS batteries to deliver
1kVA.

- make sure the UPS is at a safe spot, away from heat or have a blower
pointed at it (with cover off?) to cool internals for extended time use,
since many UPS'es are only designed for intermittent use. Preferably use
a double-conversion unit which *is* designed for continuous duty.

This suggestion requires nothing more than finding a (used) UPS and some
creativity and scheduling of 2 EVs.
Make sure that the 2 EVs never touch, as their chassis are at 12V
difference, you would short one battery if they did touch.
Success!
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via
EV
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 5:46 PM
To: Dan Kegel via EV
Cc: Bill Dube
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power
rating?

You can only _continuously_ draw 80% of the maximum amperage out of any
household circuit. (The wiring over heats.) Since a large fraction of
115 volt outlets have a 15 amp breaker, (some have a 20 amp) you can
only draw 15 x 115 x 0.8 = 1380 watts.
On a 20 amp, 20 x 115 x 0.8 = 1840 watts.

For a limited duty cycle (short time) you can draw the full amperage,
but only for a very limited time.

That is why every 115v heater that you can buy in the store is rated at
1600 watts, at the very most.
Doesn't matter how big or how fancy or how much they cost, they all are
limited to 1600 watt output.

Bill D.

On 2/1/2018 1:59 PM, Dan Kegel via EV wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> question for the EV connoiseurs out there:
>
> I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf with a ChaDeMo port.  Are there any portable

> V2G units that can plug in and provide 2KW of power?
> Alternately, are there any other EVs that support such a thing?
>
> I saw such a thing at a Nissan booth at a recent event.
> http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
> but it didn't look like it was aimed at mobile use.
> And evidently they have a new system which would meet my needs:
> http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/product_news/new173.html
> but it's only available in Japan for now.
>
> The application is a bounce house at a green fair; evidently those
> need 2KW during inflation, and 1KW during operation ( see
> http://partytime-rentals.com/learning-center/bounce-house-power-requir
> ements/
> ).
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The NEC defines a continuous load (for 225 amps or less) as one which is
expected to be operating for 1 hour or more in a 2 hour period.  A
continuous load may not exceed 80% of a branch circuit's maximum capacity.

You won't find many 15 amp branch circuits in recently built homes.  But
they're still common in older homes, so appliance manufacturers (including
those who make 120v "convenience" chargers for EVs) have to assume that they
might be plugged into a 15a circuit.  So except for those which specifically
say they have to be plugged into a 20a circuit (and have a NEMA 5-20p plug)
and/or a dedicated circuit typically are rated an no more than 1500 Watts
(125v * 15a * 0.8).

But if the appliance installation instructions say it has to be connected to
a dedicated circuit, the restrictions can be (but still might not be) less.

In fact, if the appliance is supposed to be connected with a cord and plug,
it could theoretically require as much as a 50 amp circuit.  That's the
rating of the largest 125 volt NEMA plug configuration (5-50).

I have to say though that I've never actually encountered a 120/125v circuit
and receptacle larger than 30 amps (NEMA 5-30 or 2-30).  I've seen plenty of
120/125v 20 amp circuits (NEMA 5-20 or 2-20).

FWIW, I seem to recall that the ComutaCar owner's manual recommended an AWG
12 power cord and a 20 amp circuit.  But it used a NEMA 5-15 connector.

With all that clarification out of the way, I think that what Dan is asking
about is something different.  It's also not what I'd call "VTG" (vehicle to
grid).   Unless I'm misunderstanding him, he just wants to use his EV to
power a large appliance rated at 2kW.  If we take the nominal voltage as
125v, this is 16 amps, perfectly fine as a continuous load on a dedicated 20
amp circuit or inverter.

So can this be done from a Leaf battery?  Well, probably, if your pockets
are deep enough.  

A web search for custom voltage inverters turns up a few companies that will
bulid inverters to spec.  One of them, Myers Power Products Inc, says they
can build inverters with inputs "up to 800vdc" and output capacities from
500VA to 50kVA.  

But I suggest that you sit down when you call.  These are industrial
electrical suppliers, not mass market manufacturers.  It wouldn't surprise
me at all to see them quote a price in the range of what a small house might
cost for such an inverter.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Dan,
For the use with your 2013 Leaf, you would either
- need to stay below ~80A from the 12V battery, so below 1kW
- tap into the high voltage yourself
- find an affordable CHAdeMO inverter, which seems to be an oxymoron
  as even the plug is excessively pricey
- or find an external power supply that you transport with the Leaf.

My earlier reply was taking as given your request to power the 1 - 2kW
blower
from an inverter (I suggested to use a cheap used UPS for this) and
augmenting
the UPS battery with the Leaf's aux battery and DC/DC converter
continuous 80A charging.

Another alternative is to avoid the (often horribly inefficient) AC
solutions and
find an efficient DC powered blower so you can stay well below the 80A
at 12V
and power it directly from the Leaf's aux battery.

Even though it is relatively easy to access the Leaf's HV battery pack
voltage and power the
internal contactors from external 12V, I would not recommend this
solution as it risks
disabling your Leaf, besides obvious risks in dealing with HVDC.

My previous EV truck had a 120V battery pack, for which I bought a cheap
used UPS that
came without batteries in the external battery cases, so all I needed to
do was to wire
its cord to my pack via the breaker that I also removed from the battery
case and I could
plug the UPS inverter into my EV pack for up to 3kVA of power.

For the power at this green event, what is provided to other activities?
If it is possible to run an extension cord then that is much greener
than building a dedicated
solution.
If there is a solar setup, even if it does not produce the required 1kW,
can you have the panels
charge (a set of) batteries that run the inverter to power the bounce
house blower?
That would send a powerful message of having fun on solar power, even if
not *all* the power
is coming from the sun at that time - as long as you can supplement the
power that is needed,
no point in "ruined fun because the sun dd not shine". So, make sure
that the additional energy
needed (from your EV or from batteries charged and swapped out of
needed) can support
the power drawn for the bounce house during the whole period of the
event.
Success!
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dan Kegel via
EV
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 12:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Dan Kegel
Subject: [EVDL] Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Hi all.

question for the EV connoiseurs out there:

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf with a ChaDeMo port.  Are there any portable
V2G units that can plug in and provide 2KW of power?
Alternately, are there any other EVs that support such a thing?

I saw such a thing at a Nissan booth at a recent event.
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
but it didn't look like it was aimed at mobile use.
And evidently they have a new system which would meet my needs:
http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/product_news/new173.html
but it's only available in Japan for now.

The application is a bounce house at a green fair; evidently those need
2KW during inflation, and 1KW during operation ( see
http://partytime-rentals.com/learning-center/bounce-house-power-requirem
ents/
).

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
>
> I've never actually encountered a 120/125v circuit
> and receptacle larger than 30 amps (NEMA 5-30 or 2-30).

An oven/stove range requires a 40 amp, 240 volt circuit.

So if you’re desperate for a 9.6kW charge, you could go drag your stove out and plug in there. :-)

I’m lucky; my clothes dryer is near a window. But it’s only a 30A circuit.

:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::

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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the power at this green event, what is provided to other activities?
> If it is possible to run an extension cord then that is much greener
> than building a dedicated solution.

I think no power is provided.  (That's fairly standard at farmers' markets
in Los Angeles, something I'd like to change.)  I think this event will
be in a public park.  In any case, I was told we would need a generator
just for the bounce house, so I'm trying to find a replacement to power
just that one thing.

> If there is a solar setup, even if it does not produce the required 1kW,
> can you have the panels charge (a set of) batteries that run the inverter
> to power the bounce house blower?
> That would send a powerful message of having fun on solar power, even if
> not *all* the power is coming from the sun at that time - as long as you
> can supplement the power that is needed,
> no point in "ruined fun because the sun dd not shine". So, make sure
> that the additional energy needed (from your EV or from batteries
> charged and swapped out of needed) can support the power drawn
> for the bounce house during the whole period of the event.
> Success!

Indeed.

Status:

- Nichicon confirms they don't have a US model of the portable cademo
-> 110v unit yet.
- I'm talking with the guy who put solar on my roof; he also offers batteries
now (I gather Tesla PowerWall 2 and Sonnen Eco).  I have no idea
if it's practical or wise to try to use one of those for this application,
but I could imagine lugging one of them over charged, and using
a panel or three during the day -- to show power going in, if nothing else.
Anyway, even if it's not, we could put up a solar panel in front of
the gas generator :-)

- Dan
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Re: Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I used to have a 30 ft 6AWG extension cord to bring the stove outlet to the driveway.
Only once was it needed to give a guy a charge that had the Saturn with ACPropulsion
drive that could charge at up to 80A, so I asked him to crank it up to 50A and within
the hour the 12kW charge rate caused his batttery to hit max voltage and start tapering
while my house circuit was cold as stone, so everything worked as designed. I believe
it was the first time he cranked it up to that high level, normally he stayed below 40A.
one fender was humming from the 60Hz magnetic field in one motor winding.

In preparation of more electric loads and solar, I have brought a 50A circuit from my
service panel to a load center in the garage, so it is now much easier to add stuff
like for example a 50A charging outlet or a circuit for a solar inverter.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 3:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
>
> I've never actually encountered a 120/125v circuit and receptacle
> larger than 30 amps (NEMA 5-30 or 2-30).

An oven/stove range requires a 40 amp, 240 volt circuit.

So if you’re desperate for a 9.6kW charge, you could go drag your stove out and plug in there. :-)

I’m lucky; my clothes dryer is near a window. But it’s only a 30A circuit.

:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::

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