Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
27 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


[ref
https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@.../msg24993.html
]

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/lifestyle/rant-rave-if-youre-parked-in-an-ev-charging-spot-plug-in/
Rant & Rave: If you’re parked in an EV-charging spot, plug in
January 6, 2019  Seattle Times readers rantandrave @seattletimes.com.

[image  
https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/web-rant-electric-vehicles-parking--768x494.jpg
(Gabriel Campanario / The Seattle Times)
]

RANT Electric-vehicle parking spots with chargers are for actively charging
plug-in vehicles by law. I rely solely on public charging to keep my fully
electric vehicle charged and check the plug-share app for available
chargers, only to arrive to the spot and find it taken by a vehicle that
isn’t charging. It’s extremely frustrating that people are so inconsiderate
...
[© seattletimes.com]


+
https://www.krem.com/article/news/what-happened-to-spokanes-electric-car-the-tango/293-3ec56f19-edb5-431c-93d9-eb9498cd086c
What happened to Spokane's electric car, the Tango?
[dated]  Rick Woodbury and his son created the Tango, a two-seater electric
car that’s about 3-feet-wide. More than ten years after selling a car to
George Clooney, there hasn’t been much word on how the cars ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

I wish Rick the best.  Those of us that have been on the EVDL for a long time are very aware of the Tango, but I think he is way behind the curve now with no hope of ever catching up.



https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.krem.com%2Farticle%2Fnews%2Fwhat-happened-to-spokanes-electric-car-the-tango%2F293-3ec56f19-edb5-431c-93d9-eb9498cd086c&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&sdata=E%2FLPK4Q4Mvvb69SuBDH9tnbt2LBMdGsRNLn5oyxkamA%3D&reserved=0
What happened to Spokane's electric car, the Tango?
[dated]  Rick Woodbury and his son created the Tango, a two-seater electric
car that’s about 3-feet-wide. More than ten years after selling a car to
George Clooney, there hasn’t been much word on how the cars ...

________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2019 11:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating



[ref
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fev%40lists.evdl.org%2Fmsg24993.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=nzRuUmxPohHnlzalGCIfAreT518cfPIl5sRCq7FsEHs%3D&amp;reserved=0
]

https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.seattletimes.com%2Flife%2Flifestyle%2Frant-rave-if-youre-parked-in-an-ev-charging-spot-plug-in%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=33DQ1VitNTvpyHPiaOudLKH3FCJYBW%2B%2F3%2FQtV793IoE%3D&amp;reserved=0
Rant & Rave: If you’re parked in an EV-charging spot, plug in
January 6, 2019  Seattle Times readers rantandrave @seattletimes.com.

[image
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.seattletimes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F01%2Fweb-rant-electric-vehicles-parking--768x494.jpg&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=xl6zRMOEt2MnfEuJI9q74BZHhQ0V0dcoeI7xE4FRms4%3D&amp;reserved=0
(Gabriel Campanario / The Seattle Times)
]

RANT Electric-vehicle parking spots with chargers are for actively charging
plug-in vehicles by law. I rely solely on public charging to keep my fully
electric vehicle charged and check the plug-share app for available
chargers, only to arrive to the spot and find it taken by a vehicle that
isn’t charging. It’s extremely frustrating that people are so inconsiderate
...
[© seattletimes.com]


+
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.krem.com%2Farticle%2Fnews%2Fwhat-happened-to-spokanes-electric-car-the-tango%2F293-3ec56f19-edb5-431c-93d9-eb9498cd086c&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=E%2FLPK4Q4Mvvb69SuBDH9tnbt2LBMdGsRNLn5oyxkamA%3D&amp;reserved=0
What happened to Spokane's electric car, the Tango?
[dated]  Rick Woodbury and his son created the Tango, a two-seater electric
car that’s about 3-feet-wide. More than ten years after selling a car to
George Clooney, there hasn’t been much word on how the cars ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fevdl.org%2Farchive%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=EkCHvejuXnChrNUuMNSQCLOAp1grGSMOMxI6O6IVXEM%3D&amp;reserved=0


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Felectric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=TostIlZGYQ4TWZS%2BE2O6rK7QtX9ZK3U6geOzS3lwXoY%3D&amp;reserved=0
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2Findex.html%23usub&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=Oqb47LsqkcvYuOZ7oCdkcCyClvrV379FyrOYO4k3%2F2g%3D&amp;reserved=0
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.evdl.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fev-evdl.org&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=BvZP92%2B7GFsoatUpPhZD1jmAUTqQA%2FwohhU5MHRWF5I%3D&amp;reserved=0
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgroups.yahoo.com%2Fgroup%2FNEDRA&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946&amp;sdata=HrUuSP7qVCtuBf1%2FlBE2ZwsJxN57FYqrVXOkq4Y8Eo4%3D&amp;reserved=0)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190107/8b98f586/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yes. I thought the Tango would be a really good EV for my lifestyle but
they were not readily available at an affordable price. Bit of trivia:
car was named Tango after one of the ice dances Rick did when he was
skating. Don't know if he still skates or not. I would like to see the
car succeed as I think safety, in addition to other features, was excellent.


On 1/7/2019 3:22 PM, Damon Henry via EV wrote:
> I wish Rick the best.  Those of us that have been on the EVDL for a long time are very aware of the Tango, but I think he is way behind the curve now with no hope of ever catching up.
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Tango: Rant&Rave ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Rant-Rave-not-charging-in-an-EVSE-spot-extremely-frustrating-tp4692436p4692447.html
]

% proem: I too also wish only the best for Rick and his EV company.

Many years ago, I posted opinions based on gathered information from the
internet and the paper media. Later, at one of the many EV symposiums I
would attend and report to the evdl, Rick made it clear to me of his
displeasure with what I posted (I was a permanent member of his shite-list
{SL} from that point on).

I feel you have-to cut him some slack on that, as he has been for many
years, a one-man army to promote his EV (so he might take anything that
isn't stellar-positive as a negative, or as poo-pooing his EV, thus
him/personally). Those negative waves are not good for an EV business, so I
am hoping he has moved on.

*I do think it would be good to have an evdl member (perhaps Damon or Gail)
contact him
http://www.commutercars.com/contact.html
 to know how things are going for him and his company, and then post that to
the evdl (?takers?)


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Tango
(evdl archive search) Found 285 matching posts for Tango in Electric Vehicle
Discussion List


A simple search brings up many links to explore:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Tango+electric+Rick
 Some video links come up:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%253D&search_query=Tango+Electric+Car

https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%253D&search_query=Tango+Electric+Vehicle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGyCtqLDAtk
What ever happened to the Tango Commuter Car?
KREM 2 News  Published on Jan 6, 2019
Rick Woodbury and his son created the first Tango prototype in 1998. But
lack of funding for the expensive vehicles has kept the company from taking
off ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71bEWlaRhzM
Tango Electric Car
The Spokesman-Review  Published on Jun 19, 2017
Spokane car-builder Rick Woodbury is about to ship two brighly painted
Tangos to Google co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin, and this video
gives us a look at what they look like, about two weeks from being finished
...


wiki sez:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango
Commuter Cars Tango ... an American company based in Spokane, Washington,
that sells this car worldwide for $108,000 ...  second car eventually found
its way into the second-floor office of Google CEO Eric Schmidt as part of
an April Fools' Day joke. By 2014, fewer than 20 cars had been built in the
United States ...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/TangoSide.jpg/1024px-TangoSide.jpg
...
https://www.linkedin.com/company/commuter-cars
 ... Year Founded  1998 ...


The following opinions are based on what I've been able to gather, and are
likely going to continue to keep me on Rick's SL. IMO, the Tango is a unique
highway speed capable EV.
 Looking at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango#Specifications
 except for offering an li-ion pack, and j1772 L2 access, the Tango EV is
still the same original (20 year old) design.

-dual DC series e-motors and dual (non-regen) DC controllers

-public charging is either an outlet or j1772 L2-6kW. Tango EVs do not allow
for CHAdeMo, ccs, nor Tesla L3 charging network access. There is a 200A
off-board charging option.

-range is 145mi (production EVs have the range bar set way higher than this,
thus Tango is behind today's range curve)

But the Tango has a unique design going for it.
 Sadly, only the wealthiest buyers seem interested.
 In one of the above videos Google's Larry Page is mentioned. But on the
wiki page is says the Tango EV was bought for Larry as an April Fool's joke.
And as a one-off oddity on HBO's Silicon Valley series/TV-show

https://www.businessinsider.com/tango-hybrid-narrow-car-in-silicon-valley-2014-5
 ... "It was such a funny sight gag," ... "We were so glad to get it. There
were only two in the nation, ... we were able to get one from Seattle." ...
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVonTVs-What-will-happen-to-Gregory-s-EV-on-HBO-s-Silicon-Valley-tp4675017.html


Rick would likely not want his EV to be only relegated to a wealthy few nor,
to be used as joke car. But an order is an order, meaning (business is
business) each EV order is a way to keep his company alive.

Wiki also mentions the pr prestige of having Clooney buy his EV. But those
that have followed this found Clooney to not be an EV advocate (and perhaps
more of a rich drunken loony celebrity)

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Clooney

Clooney publicly made range complains of his EVs, dropping them as a tax
write offs
https://www.google.com/search?q=Clooney+tesla

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Clooney-charity-auctions-his-2008-Tesla-Signature-100-Roadster-tp4657118.html
EVLN: Clooney charity-auctions his 2008 Tesla Signature 100 Roadster
Clooney is putting his Tesla where his mouth is
George Clooney auctioning his Tesla for charity
Aug 11, 2012


So Tango fans, lets hope for the best and that Rick will give an evdl member
an update on  the happs  of him and his EV company :-)
%




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tango: Rant&Rave ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Most of them use AC permanent magnet motors

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2019, at 8:57 PM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> [ref
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Rant-Rave-not-charging-in-an-EVSE-spot-extremely-frustrating-tp4692436p4692447.html
> ]
>
> % proem: I too also wish only the best for Rick and his EV company.
>
> Many years ago, I posted opinions based on gathered information from the
> internet and the paper media. Later, at one of the many EV symposiums I
> would attend and report to the evdl, Rick made it clear to me of his
> displeasure with what I posted (I was a permanent member of his shite-list
> {SL} from that point on).
>
> I feel you have-to cut him some slack on that, as he has been for many
> years, a one-man army to promote his EV (so he might take anything that
> isn't stellar-positive as a negative, or as poo-pooing his EV, thus
> him/personally). Those negative waves are not good for an EV business, so I
> am hoping he has moved on.
>
> *I do think it would be good to have an evdl member (perhaps Damon or Gail)
> contact him
> http://www.commutercars.com/contact.html
> to know how things are going for him and his company, and then post that to
> the evdl (?takers?)
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Tango
> (evdl archive search) Found 285 matching posts for Tango in Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List
>
>
> A simple search brings up many links to explore:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Tango+electric+Rick
> Some video links come up:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%253D&search_query=Tango+Electric+Car
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%253D&search_query=Tango+Electric+Vehicle
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGyCtqLDAtk
> What ever happened to the Tango Commuter Car?
> KREM 2 News  Published on Jan 6, 2019
> Rick Woodbury and his son created the first Tango prototype in 1998. But
> lack of funding for the expensive vehicles has kept the company from taking
> off ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71bEWlaRhzM
> Tango Electric Car
> The Spokesman-Review  Published on Jun 19, 2017
> Spokane car-builder Rick Woodbury is about to ship two brighly painted
> Tangos to Google co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin, and this video
> gives us a look at what they look like, about two weeks from being finished
> ...
>
>
> wiki sez:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango
> Commuter Cars Tango ... an American company based in Spokane, Washington,
> that sells this car worldwide for $108,000 ...  second car eventually found
> its way into the second-floor office of Google CEO Eric Schmidt as part of
> an April Fools' Day joke. By 2014, fewer than 20 cars had been built in the
> United States ...
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/TangoSide.jpg/1024px-TangoSide.jpg
> ...
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/commuter-cars
> ... Year Founded  1998 ...
>
>
> The following opinions are based on what I've been able to gather, and are
> likely going to continue to keep me on Rick's SL. IMO, the Tango is a unique
> highway speed capable EV.
> Looking at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango#Specifications
> except for offering an li-ion pack, and j1772 L2 access, the Tango EV is
> still the same original (20 year old) design.
>
> -dual DC series e-motors and dual (non-regen) DC controllers
>
> -public charging is either an outlet or j1772 L2-6kW. Tango EVs do not allow
> for CHAdeMo, ccs, nor Tesla L3 charging network access. There is a 200A
> off-board charging option.
>
> -range is 145mi (production EVs have the range bar set way higher than this,
> thus Tango is behind today's range curve)
>
> But the Tango has a unique design going for it.
> Sadly, only the wealthiest buyers seem interested.
> In one of the above videos Google's Larry Page is mentioned. But on the
> wiki page is says the Tango EV was bought for Larry as an April Fool's joke.
> And as a one-off oddity on HBO's Silicon Valley series/TV-show
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tango-hybrid-narrow-car-in-silicon-valley-2014-5
> ... "It was such a funny sight gag," ... "We were so glad to get it. There
> were only two in the nation, ... we were able to get one from Seattle." ...
> ...
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVonTVs-What-will-happen-to-Gregory-s-EV-on-HBO-s-Silicon-Valley-tp4675017.html
>
>
> Rick would likely not want his EV to be only relegated to a wealthy few nor,
> to be used as joke car. But an order is an order, meaning (business is
> business) each EV order is a way to keep his company alive.
>
> Wiki also mentions the pr prestige of having Clooney buy his EV. But those
> that have followed this found Clooney to not be an EV advocate (and perhaps
> more of a rich drunken loony celebrity)
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=Clooney
>
> Clooney publicly made range complains of his EVs, dropping them as a tax
> write offs
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Clooney+tesla
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Clooney-charity-auctions-his-2008-Tesla-Signature-100-Roadster-tp4657118.html
> EVLN: Clooney charity-auctions his 2008 Tesla Signature 100 Roadster
> Clooney is putting his Tesla where his mouth is
> George Clooney auctioning his Tesla for charity
> Aug 11, 2012
>
>
> So Tango fans, lets hope for the best and that Rick will give an evdl member
> an update on  the happs  of him and his EV company :-)
> %
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 23:41, Gail Lucas via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to see the
> car succeed as I think safety, in addition to other features, was excellent.

I disagree, Rick's attitude was 'crumple zones are marketing hype'.

Yes, you need a strong cage to limit crush injuries, but the human
body can only stand so much decelleration.

--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Paul Compton via EV wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 23:41, Gail Lucas via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would like to see the
>> car succeed as I think safety, in addition to other features, was excellent.
>
> I disagree, Rick's attitude was 'crumple zones are marketing hype'.
>
> Yes, you need a strong cage to limit crush injuries, but the human
> body can only stand so much decelleration.

If your goal is to make a small car, then the crumple zones are
necessarily small as well. So he made a strong cage as the best that
could be done given the laws of physics.

Remember that the Tango is about the size of a large motorcycle. It is
more maneuverable, and stops faster than most cars. That helps to avoid
accidents.

Rick was also aiming to make it an affordable commuter car; not a luxury
sports car. Unfortunately, his investors had other ideas...

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
IMO, Rick's idea with the Tango was brilliant.  Though the car was
unconventional in appearance, I would even say weird, it was and is a
rational design that should have appealed to briliant people.

The problem was the car's price.  The price sticker looked like it belonged
on an exotic sports car, but when you backed away from the window, that
wasn't what you saw.  It just didn't (and doesn't) LOOK like an exotic
sports car, even though it reportedly drove like one.

There just aren't enough 99.99th-percentile-brilliant people with money.

Also, people with money don't generally want tiny, weird cars.  Of course
there are exceptions, but most of them want big, luxurious cars.

Elon Musk understood all this intuitively, probably because he was himself
awash in dough, and that's why Teslas are what they are.  

Rick Woodbury?  I have no idea.  

I'm glad he's still pursuing his dream.  I hope he catches it someday.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> IMO, Rick's idea with the Tango was brilliant... The problem was the car's
> price.
>
> Also, people with money don't want tiny, weird cars. They want big, luxurious
> cars. Elon Musk understood all this intuitively...
>
> I'm glad he's still pursuing his dream.  I hope he catches it someday.

I agree. The Tango is a great idea! It's like the marriage of a
motorcycle and a car. Compared to a motorcycle, it's safer, you're
protected from the elements, and have a heater, A/C, radio, etc.
Compared to a car, it's 1/4th the size, so it doubles space on the
highways, and quadruples parking and garage space. Fits sideways on
train cars, so you could even take your car with you, if the railroads
could get "on-board".

Being smaller, it could be a lot lighter and cheaper (like the microcars
they have in other parts of the world). With half the frontal area, it
can also use half the energy.

But, it's too different. People want cars that look like everyone else's
cars. He wasn't able to find a market for them. Without a market, there
is no mass production or economy of scale; so they are hand-built and
the price is high.

His investors also did not want to build commuter cars; they wanted to
make luxury sports cars for the very rich.

I wonder if the USA is the wrong market for the Tango. Many other
countries do not have our preconceived notions of what a car "must" look
like. There are places where roads are packed, most cars are tiny, and
many strange little vehicles are on the roads. Or, maybe there are
resort communities where golf carts are the norm for transportation. The
Tango is like a luxury golf cart with all the amenities of a car.

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
And perhaps like the Citicar its appearance would cause it to be seen
and not run into. Fitting into a small space for parking was another of
the features I liked a lot. Also similar to a Citicar. Some people want
just simple, safe vehicles for city driving. Teslas are wonderful but
overkill if one wants to drive to the grocery store or bank and not
across country.

On 1/8/2019 10:40 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Paul Compton via EV wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 23:41, Gail Lucas via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would like to see the
>>> car succeed as I think safety, in addition to other features, was
>>> excellent.
>>
>> I disagree, Rick's attitude was 'crumple zones are marketing hype'.
>>
>> Yes, you need a strong cage to limit crush injuries, but the human
>> body can only stand so much decelleration.
>
> If your goal is to make a small car, then the crumple zones are
> necessarily small as well. So he made a strong cage as the best that
> could be done given the laws of physics.
>
> Remember that the Tango is about the size of a large motorcycle. It is
> more maneuverable, and stops faster than most cars. That helps to avoid
> accidents.
>
> Rick was also aiming to make it an affordable commuter car; not a luxury
> sports car. Unfortunately, his investors had other ideas...
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 8 Jan 2019 at 13:15, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> I wonder if the USA is the wrong market for the Tango. Many other
> countries do not have our preconceived notions of what a car "must" look like.

I think you're right, to some extent.  Europe and Asia are both more open to
unconventional vehicle designs.  

I doubt that we'll ever see anything like the Renault Twizy, for example, in
US auto showrooms.  However, it's a modest seller in Europe, Asia (at least
in South Korea), and the Middle East.

But then the Twizy costs Eur 10k+, not Eur 100k+.  

It's also seen as a fun car, economical, and environmentally friendly.  
Europeans especially seem to be more willing to pay for those factors than
Americans.  

It helps too that their safety standards are more flexible, and they don't
have the preponderance of gigantic SUVs and pickups that we have here.  
(IMO, despite often aggressive and impatient other drivers, driving any tiny
car on European roads is less stressful than driving one here.)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I had forgotten about the Twizy. Found this funny video of one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz2z1LXbxzE

It is a car I would like but would want it to be self-driving.

On 1/8/2019 12:04 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

>
> I doubt that we'll ever see anything like the Renault Twizy, for example, in
> US auto showrooms.  However, it's a modest seller in Europe, Asia (at least
> in South Korea), and the Middle East.
>
> But then the Twizy costs Eur 10k+, not Eur 100k+.
>
> It's also seen as a fun car, economical, and environmentally friendly.
> Europeans especially seem to be more willing to pay for those factors than
> Americans.
>
> It helps too that their safety standards are more flexible, and they don't
> have the preponderance of gigantic SUVs and pickups that we have here.
> (IMO, despite often aggressive and impatient other drivers, driving any tiny
> car on European roads is less stressful than driving one here.)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
For me a battery electric vehicle does not need to look like a goofy toy.
BobK

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 6:09 PM Gail Lucas via EV <[hidden email] wrote:

> I had forgotten about the Twizy. Found this funny video of one.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz2z1LXbxzE
>
> It is a car I would like but would want it to be self-driving.
>
> On 1/8/2019 12:04 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> >
> > I doubt that we'll ever see anything like the Renault Twizy, for
> example, in
> > US auto showrooms.  However, it's a modest seller in Europe, Asia (at
> least
> > in South Korea), and the Middle East.
> >
> > But then the Twizy costs Eur 10k+, not Eur 100k+.
> >
> > It's also seen as a fun car, economical, and environmentally friendly.
> > Europeans especially seem to be more willing to pay for those factors
> than
> > Americans.
> >
> > It helps too that their safety standards are more flexible, and they
> don't
> > have the preponderance of gigantic SUVs and pickups that we have here.
> > (IMO, despite often aggressive and impatient other drivers, driving any
> tiny
> > car on European roads is less stressful than driving one here.)
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190108/af20e0a5/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In a similar vein (small city car), Arcimoto is going into retail production Q2 of this year:

https://www.arcimoto.com/videos/
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20181227005375/en/

I'll be arranging a test drive soon to see how well I fit, and how comfortable/safe I feel in our PDX traffic (I did a pre-order deposit some years ago).  Note that we have two used LEAFs in our family already, but even those are kinda overkill for single-driver commuting.

Regards,

Marion
________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Gail Lucas via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:09:33 PM
To: EVDL Administrator via EV
Cc: Gail Lucas
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

I had forgotten about the Twizy. Found this funny video of one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz2z1LXbxzE

It is a car I would like but would want it to be self-driving.

On 1/8/2019 12:04 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

>
> I doubt that we'll ever see anything like the Renault Twizy, for example, in
> US auto showrooms.  However, it's a modest seller in Europe, Asia (at least
> in South Korea), and the Middle East.
>
> But then the Twizy costs Eur 10k+, not Eur 100k+.
>
> It's also seen as a fun car, economical, and environmentally friendly.
> Europeans especially seem to be more willing to pay for those factors than
> Americans.
>
> It helps too that their safety standards are more flexible, and they don't
> have the preponderance of gigantic SUVs and pickups that we have here.
> (IMO, despite often aggressive and impatient other drivers, driving any tiny
> car on European roads is less stressful than driving one here.)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 1/8/19 6:26 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
> For me a battery electric vehicle does not need to look like a goofy toy.
> BobK

Of course, a BEV does not NEED to look any certain way.  Beauty is in
the eye of the beholder.  Form follows function.  Certainly the
hidebound will demand certain appearances.  We would like to see an an
open minded buying public. I would be a Twizy sales prospect if one were
offered to me.  I would like to have a good condition, reliable,
capable, safe, cheese wedge CCar.  Recognizing, of course, that CCars
never met those criteria.  Never the less, both CCars and Twizys have
earned their places in the history of EV development.  I honor them.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I most certainly agree. There are a lot of vehicles (BEV or ICE) that I do
not like, and I wonder why so many people buy them. But all vehicles are
not made for my tastes. That is a good thing. As is said so often, variety
is the spice of life, whether you are talking people, motorcycles or cars.
Also I live in a rural area so I need at least 200 miles of range for many
trips that I make quite often. Just going to the doctor is at least an hour
and a half trip. Even a range of 210 mile would not get me to New Orleans
and back without stopping for charge, and then needing to plug in when I
got back home. If I lived in a big city, a smaller car with low range would
be OK.
BobK

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 8:05 AM Willie via EV <[hidden email] wrote:

>
>
> On 1/8/19 6:26 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
> > For me a battery electric vehicle does not need to look like a goofy toy.
> > BobK
>
> Of course, a BEV does not NEED to look any certain way.  Beauty is in
> the eye of the beholder.  Form follows function.  Certainly the
> hidebound will demand certain appearances.  We would like to see an an
> open minded buying public. I would be a Twizy sales prospect if one were
> offered to me.  I would like to have a good condition, reliable,
> capable, safe, cheese wedge CCar.  Recognizing, of course, that CCars
> never met those criteria.  Never the less, both CCars and Twizys have
> earned their places in the history of EV development.  I honor them.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190109/b7dcce5a/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
This looked interesting when I saw it has handle bars instead of a
steering wheel. I thought it might have the brake control there, as on
bikes, was disappointed that the brakes need the floor pedal. I can't
drive because my leg won't move fast enough to hit the brake in an
emergency. Do report on how you like the Arcimoto.

Gail


On 1/8/2019 6:45 PM, Marion Hakanson wrote:

> In a similar vein (small city car), Arcimoto is going into retail production Q2 of this year:
>
> https://www.arcimoto.com/videos/
> https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20181227005375/en/
>
> I'll be arranging a test drive soon to see how well I fit, and how comfortable/safe I feel in our PDX traffic (I did a pre-order deposit some years ago).  Note that we have two used LEAFs in our family already, but even those are kinda overkill for single-driver commuting.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marion
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
>> For me a battery electric vehicle does not need to look like a goofy toy.

Willie via EV wrote:
> Of course, a BEV does not NEED to look any certain way.  Beauty is in
> the eye of the beholder.  Form follows function.  Certainly the
> hidebound will demand certain appearances.  We would like to see an an
> open minded buying public. I would be a Twizy sales prospect if one were
> offered to me.  I would like to have a good condition, reliable,
> capable, safe, cheese wedge CCar.  Recognizing, of course, that CCars
> never met those criteria.  Never the less, both CCars and Twizys have
> earned their places in the history of EV development.  I honor them.

Well said, Willie.

Though I might add that form has not followed function in automobiles
for a very long time. They are all about styling and cost. The internals
reflect good science and engineering, but the bodies are almost 100%
styling.

Wy? Because most people buy cars almost entirely based on price and
appearance. And their idea of what "looks good" constantly changes.

Introducing a new car is a tough problem. All the currently-fashionable
shapes have already been taken. So you will have to pick a new shape,
which perhaps only a tiny percentage of the market will think is
"beautiful". Hopefully, it will be a large enough slice if the market to
survive. This is why we see such oddball appearances in new, limited
market vehicles.
--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Just learned a new word: hidebound. There are SO many different car
styles there must be wide preferences in appearance. Same as with
clothing, houses, even food shown on the internet in pictures of what
someone had for lunch and think anyone cares. Twizy and Citicar styles
are different enough to appeal to people who can't tell one usual car
body style from the other. They also need less space for parking and use
less electricity than a Tesla so are an inexpensive means to tool around
town.

Willie, Citicars did meet some of the criteria you mentioned, when they
were new. Those I had were already old when I bought them but still
worked well when I found people who could help me maintain them. They
held way more stuff than you could imagine if just looking at one, like
two folding chairs, bulletin board, stack of flyers, large costumes,
baskets of flowers, ice skates, etc. used for Earth Day events. I once
drove two grown men to the Strip in one when their expected
transportation was not available, often took my neighbor with suitcases
to the airport. They functioned very nicely for their intended purpose
and were my only cars at times. I also used a pedal-powered bicycle for
a few years, then upgraded to E-bikes and all were adequate to get me to
work or to shopping, never felt a need to go from 0 to 60 quickly and
didn't miss cup holders. An E-bike could be called a BEV. And don't
forget all the NEVs, some very cute and also practical for many
purposes. It annoys me when I hear people say they can't use an EV
because it won't go 300 miles on a charge. Many could probably manage
with a Citicar except it would not qualify as a status symbol.

On 1/9/2019 5:56 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

> Of course, a BEV does not NEED to look any certain way.  Beauty is in
> the eye of the beholder.  Form follows function.  Certainly the
> hidebound will demand certain appearances.  We would like to see an an
> open minded buying public. I would be a Twizy sales prospect if one were
> offered to me.  I would like to have a good condition, reliable,
> capable, safe, cheese wedge CCar.  Recognizing, of course, that CCars
> never met those criteria.  Never the less, both CCars and Twizys have
> earned their places in the history of EV development.  I honor them.
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Rant&Rave: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 1/9/19 12:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Though I might add that form has not followed function in automobiles
> for a very long time. They are all about styling and cost. The internals
> reflect good science and engineering, but the bodies are almost 100%
> styling.

I can't completely agree with you.  Current sedans seem to be pretty low
drag.  Especially Tesla.  Of course, people complain about them all
looking the same.

SUVs and pickups, OTOH.....

I had a bunch of 1980s Isuzu diesel pickups.  Before I bought the first,
in about 1982, I went around trying on the various brands of small
Japanese pickups.  The Isuzu/ChevyLuv had a cab that would well
accommodate my 6' 4-5".  I came to love those things.  Standing flat on
the ground, you could reach half way across the bed.  With a side door
topper, there was rarely any need to climb in the bed.  I typically got
35-40 mpg and up to 50 mpg.  That rivals the the highest mileages of the
time, even econo boxes, and the load capacity was near a ton.  The
engines were near bullet proof.  The last pick up I bought was a
Dodge-Cummins, about 2005.  I hated it.  Noisy.  Rough riding.  Less
than half the mileage of an Isuzu.  You had to climb into the bed to
access ANYTHING.  When I bought it, I figured I would get used to it.  I
did not; I continued to hate it.  After about 1995, nothing comparable
to the 80s Isuzus was available.  The Ranger/Mazdas got jacked up so
their beds were as inaccessible as larger pickups.  Bah!  HumBug!  Even
the new EV pickups on the horizon mimic the horrible configurations of
current pickups.  What are the designers thinking?  What are the buyers
thinking?

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

12