Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Jeff Shanab
By torque converter, i meant the hydraulic fluid coupling used on cars.
I have never heard of anyone calling a salsbary drive a torque
converter, but I guess all transmissions of any type are just that.

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Brian Jackson-10
Does an EV with an automatic transmission even need a torque converter? Seems to me that a person would only have to select drive, apply the throttle, line pressure would build (assuming this is not a crummy chrysler transmission :-P ) and away you go. I guess the motor would need some sort of a rev limiter if it were coupled to a transmission in such a way. Maybe a better way to use an automatic would be to have an external fluid pump so that line pressure was maintained at all times regardless of whether or not the main EV motor was running.

Brian


---- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:

=============
By torque converter, i meant the hydraulic fluid coupling used on cars.
I have never heard of anyone calling a salsbary drive a torque
converter, but I guess all transmissions of any type are just that.

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.

But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a CVT.
They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
almost want a "low stall" unit.

The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
to be cooled externally.

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Marty Hewes
In reply to this post by Brian Jackson-10
That's exactly what I'm building, an EV with a Chevy Turbo 350 with a TCI
coupler where the converter would be, and Roland is ahead of me on this.
The biggest problems seem to be the delay in building pressure when the
motor spins up followed by sudden engagement, and getting the shift points
right.  If the delay problem is too obnoxious, I'll run an external pump,
probably share it with the steering.  If the shift point problem is too
obnoxious, manual shift valve bodies are available for the TH350.  It's all
been done before, there is some information if you poke around the archives.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Jackson" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Jeff Shanab" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> Does an EV with an automatic transmission even need a torque converter?
> Seems to me that a person would only have to select drive, apply the
> throttle, line pressure would build (assuming this is not a crummy
> chrysler transmission :-P ) and away you go. I guess the motor would need
> some sort of a rev limiter if it were coupled to a transmission in such a
> way. Maybe a better way to use an automatic would be to have an external
> fluid pump so that line pressure was maintained at all times regardless of
> whether or not the main EV motor was running.
>
> Brian
>
>
> ---- Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> =============
> By torque converter, i meant the hydraulic fluid coupling used on cars.
> I have never heard of anyone calling a salsbary drive a torque
> converter, but I guess all transmissions of any type are just that.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
Jeff Shanab wrote:

> Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
> ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
>
> But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
> single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a CVT.
> They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
> close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
> almost want a "low stall" unit.
>
> The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
> to be cooled externally.

Some, but not all have external oil coolers. The old Chevy Corvair
Powerglide automatic had cooling fins on the torque converter, and no
oil cooler. This transmission was also unique in that the torque
converter was mounted completely separately from the transmission itself.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Marty Hewes
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
I think to keep the losses down, you'd need a lockup converter, which adds
some complexity.  Plus, the nature of a torque converter is to allow the ICE
to increase RPM during acceleration to where it generates torque, and to
allow the torque converter to do some torque multiplication.  So you'd have
to make sure the stall speed was at an RPM where you'd still have enough
volts to keep the motor torque up.  But I don't think that would be a
problem with a stall speed lower than an all out drag race convertor.  I
think stock converters stall between 1800 and 2400 RPM.

You might get around the heat issue by using a torque converter from some
Vega transmissions.  They used the convertor for cooling, with holes in the
bell housing.  No cooler on the trans.  But I think you'd still need
pressurized oil, and want a lock up feature for efficiency and heat
reduction.  And you still have no reverse or park.

Oh, but would there be a way to cruise at highway speeds at 3000 RPM for
efficiency, and upshift to drop the RPM into the motor power band to pass?

Actually, GM used a switchable stall speed converter on some Turbo 400's in
the sixties.  I put one in my 68 Camaro back in the day.  It was pretty
trick.  But again, it takes pressure to switch it.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
> ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
>
> But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
> single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a
> CVT.
> They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
> close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
> almost want a "low stall" unit.
>
> The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
> to be cooled externally.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
Ah, I just missed the powerglide era, cut my teeth on the turbo
hydramatic 350 and the C4.
One more thing that I just thought of, the locking clutches are
electrically controlled but they are usually implemented in the
converter hydraulically. External pump seems only way to go.

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Roland Wiench
You can still get Powerglides converted from tci.com. I would have like to
use one in my EV, but the first gear ratio is 1.76:1 and 2nd gear is 1.0:1.
Can use a torque converter with a ratio of 1.78:1, so that the overall
starting ratio with my 5.57:1 axle would be 17.45:1 which is a little less
than my overall ratio of 19.5:1 with the manual.

You can also get a torque converter that is lock up solid or use a pump
shaft tube without the torque converter.  The Powerglide also has a area on
the side that you can plug in a unit that you can install pressure lines to
hydraulic cylinder that you can operated manually for startup or operated
this unit with a low pressure 75 to 250 psi hydraulic pump. This unit from
TCI is call a Push Start device.

For racing the hydraulic pressure would be at a high PSI, but for street
use, it would have to be control for high pressure for acceleration and a
low pressure at stop, idle or cruse

I opt for a TH-400 that I specific a low 1st gear of 2.75:1 and the 2nd gear
of 1.76.  This gives me the same overall gear ratio of 26.95:1 with a 1.78:1
torque converter or 15.32:1 with a lock up torque converter or a pump shaft
without the torque converter.

The TH-400 is also modified with a manual value body and heavy duty race
type clutches which is good for 1200 hp. There is no governor and it must be
manual shift, so it is more like a semi-automatic.

There is no kick down cable unit, but the modulator value is control by a
GMC vacuum value that is control by the accelerator linkage which applies
high vacuum at stop, idle or cruse which decreases the transmission pump
pressure, and during acceleration, it applies low vacuum which increase the
pump pressure.

These units are standard GMC devices that is used on GMC diesel truck.

In very hard accelerations, it is preferred to have some slack in the pump
shaft tube that is directly bolted to the motor coupler and plug into the
pump, I use about 3/16 of a inch so it can float back and forth, other wise
you may damage the pump if is bolted up solid.

If you use a torque converter, this is where the flex wheel comes in.  it is
design to flex under these conditions.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> Ah, I just missed the powerglide era, cut my teeth on the turbo
> hydramatic 350 and the C4.
> One more thing that I just thought of, the locking clutches are
> electrically controlled but they are usually implemented in the
> converter hydraulically. External pump seems only way to go.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

Evan Tuer
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
On 8/12/07, Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
> ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
>
> But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
> single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a CVT.
> They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
> close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
> almost want a "low stall" unit.
>

I've always wondered why the drag racing crowd don't use a torque
converter.  Especially before Zilla 2Ks were available, it would allow
you to get away with a on/off switch speed control :)

I think it's not such a bad idea even now, you could leave the
converter locked most of the time for normal driving (let the
controller do the work, it's more efficient), and unlock it for drag
racing, perhaps use controller bypass as well.  It would allow you to
set the gearing and motor timing up to get more power near the end of
the track, where you would lock the converter up again, without
sacrificing the initial "launch" torque.

There probably is a good reason though.  I don't know much about
torque converters, never played with one.

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