Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
5 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

jerryd

          Hi Pete and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: [hidden email]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:42:26 -0800

>I would send the money as an investment. Not for someones
>hobby.
 
      Lee has never asked for money but if people want EV's
available sending him some will help that goal. Think about
him at Christmas time for both his generious help over more
than a decade to get, keep EV's running besides the Sunrise.
How much has he saved those who have EV's? It's hard to say
but it's really high.


>
>One wrench in the works is the fiberglass composite bodies.
>On an   environmental stand how would you justify the use
>of oil products to   make the epoxy and glues and how would
>you plan on disposing of them?

         While they are mostly done now in oil, they can be
done from any HC like biomass. Many epoxies are 1/3 peanut
oil!! But one has to look at the whole system. Because
composite EV/cars done right weigh 40% less for the same
performance one would save 100's of times as much oil in
fuel costs than the puny 30 gal used in a Sunrise size car.
Even compared to another EV in metal this is true. How much
coal is in a steel car? That's much worse enviromental wise.
         Now add the 40% smaller battery pack, controller,
motor, charger, ect and those  gals of resin look mighty
good use of oil.

 > They can't be burned.

         Of course they can be. I do that to find out what
layup a piece of FG is. But sticking around for decades is a
good idea as it doesn't rust. I'd think that would be a good
thing. It's replacing a car every 2 yrs that's driving up
costs.


 They
>can't have dents removed. Damaged parts   must be replaced
>with more fiberglass composite parts and the old   ones
>disposed of.

     I guess  haven't been doing that for 30 yrs??? Also
composites are much less likely to be damaged as they are
harder, stronger than metal skins, parts. And composite are
very easy to repair,much easier than steel or worse alum.


>
>On the other side of the equation the metal bodies can be
>recycled   back into panels to be made into more parts if
>the original part is   beyond repair. They can be reformed
>and repaired. Metal bodies can be   recycled and plastic
>parts can be also.

       While composite cars don't rust where they need to be
replaced. I'm building mine to keep for the rest of my life.
That's true savings, enviromentalism.
       Have you counted the energy/coal, ect needed to
recycle steel? I'd bet it's more than it takes to build a
composite EV in the first place.

>
>I don't think there are any recycled fiberglass composites
>on the   market that can be recycled into fiberglass
>composites.

        If one wanted to recycle them they could just be
heated to 700F where they would off gas HC's which could be
converted back to resin or fuels. Could be done with solar
thermal power. The fiber recycles too.

>
>I think it would be better to stick with the steel or
>aluminum uni-  body and dispense with the composites.

          Go for it!! While my composite EV goes 1.5x's as
far on the same drive, pack on 33% less electricity/mile.

                          Jerry Dycus


>
>Unless of course you have something better and more eco
>friendly than   steel uni-bodies.





>
>I have not looked for better composites that are bio
>friendly.
>
>Ideas? Or are composites just a real wrench in the works?
>
>On a mass produced level that would be loads of garbage
>just like old   glass boats littered everywhere.
>
>How to dispose of them is a real big problem.
>
>Pete
>
>:  )
>
>
>On Nov 30, 2007, at 11:05 PM, <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> If someone sends money to your project, especially a
>> large sum like $1,000, I would hope they see it purely as
>> a   donation and not
>> as an investment.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

Roland Wiench
I recycle my fiberglass Cam Am Group 7 sports car body all the time.  After
someone or I hit someone, the fiberglass pieces are pick up and glue back on
and finish off like it was never damage and can be done in with a hour for a
crack or hole.   The body panels never had to be replace since 1973 I had
the car.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???


>
>           Hi Pete and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: [hidden email]
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:42:26 -0800
>
> >I would send the money as an investment. Not for someones
> >hobby.
>
>       Lee has never asked for money but if people want EV's
> available sending him some will help that goal. Think about
> him at Christmas time for both his generious help over more
> than a decade to get, keep EV's running besides the Sunrise.
> How much has he saved those who have EV's? It's hard to say
> but it's really high.
>
>
> >
> >One wrench in the works is the fiberglass composite bodies.
> >On an   environmental stand how would you justify the use
> >of oil products to   make the epoxy and glues and how would
> >you plan on disposing of them?
>
>          While they are mostly done now in oil, they can be
> done from any HC like biomass. Many epoxies are 1/3 peanut
> oil!! But one has to look at the whole system. Because
> composite EV/cars done right weigh 40% less for the same
> performance one would save 100's of times as much oil in
> fuel costs than the puny 30 gal used in a Sunrise size car.
> Even compared to another EV in metal this is true. How much
> coal is in a steel car? That's much worse enviromental wise.
>          Now add the 40% smaller battery pack, controller,
> motor, charger, ect and those  gals of resin look mighty
> good use of oil.
>
>  > They can't be burned.
>
>          Of course they can be. I do that to find out what
> layup a piece of FG is. But sticking around for decades is a
> good idea as it doesn't rust. I'd think that would be a good
> thing. It's replacing a car every 2 yrs that's driving up
> costs.
>
>
>  They
> >can't have dents removed. Damaged parts   must be replaced
> >with more fiberglass composite parts and the old   ones
> >disposed of.
>
>      I guess  haven't been doing that for 30 yrs??? Also
> composites are much less likely to be damaged as they are
> harder, stronger than metal skins, parts. And composite are
> very easy to repair,much easier than steel or worse alum.
>
>
> >
> >On the other side of the equation the metal bodies can be
> >recycled   back into panels to be made into more parts if
> >the original part is   beyond repair. They can be reformed
> >and repaired. Metal bodies can be   recycled and plastic
> >parts can be also.
>
>        While composite cars don't rust where they need to be
> replaced. I'm building mine to keep for the rest of my life.
> That's true savings, enviromentalism.
>        Have you counted the energy/coal, ect needed to
> recycle steel? I'd bet it's more than it takes to build a
> composite EV in the first place.
>
> >
> >I don't think there are any recycled fiberglass composites
> >on the   market that can be recycled into fiberglass
> >composites.
>
>         If one wanted to recycle them they could just be
> heated to 700F where they would off gas HC's which could be
> converted back to resin or fuels. Could be done with solar
> thermal power. The fiber recycles too.
>
> >
> >I think it would be better to stick with the steel or
> >aluminum uni-  body and dispense with the composites.
>
>           Go for it!! While my composite EV goes 1.5x's as
> far on the same drive, pack on 33% less electricity/mile.
>
>                           Jerry Dycus
>
>
> >
> >Unless of course you have something better and more eco
> >friendly than   steel uni-bodies.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I have not looked for better composites that are bio
> >friendly.
> >
> >Ideas? Or are composites just a real wrench in the works?
> >
> >On a mass produced level that would be loads of garbage
> >just like old   glass boats littered everywhere.
> >
> >How to dispose of them is a real big problem.
> >
> >Pete
> >
> >:  )
> >
> >
> >On Nov 30, 2007, at 11:05 PM, <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> If someone sends money to your project, especially a
> >> large sum like $1,000, I would hope they see it purely as
> >> a   donation and not
> >> as an investment.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

Jack Murray
In reply to this post by jerryd

> On a mass produced level that [Composites] would be
loads of garbage just like old  
glass boats littered everywhere.

That is an excellent point, thanks for pointing that
out.  

I note that Jerry is emphatic about not recycling old
cars into EVs, but creating new ones. The argument
your new EV will last forever and won't have to be
recycled is a contradiction.  


--- jerryd <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>           Hi Pete and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: [hidden email]
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt
> Frustrated????
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:42:26 -0800
>
> >I would send the money as an investment. Not for
> someones
> >hobby.
>  
>       Lee has never asked for money but if people
> want EV's
> available sending him some will help that goal.
> Think about
> him at Christmas time for both his generious help
> over more
> than a decade to get, keep EV's running besides the
> Sunrise.
> How much has he saved those who have EV's? It's hard
> to say
> but it's really high.
>
>
> >
> >One wrench in the works is the fiberglass composite
> bodies.
> >On an   environmental stand how would you justify
> the use
> >of oil products to   make the epoxy and glues and
> how would
> >you plan on disposing of them?
>
>          While they are mostly done now in oil, they
> can be
> done from any HC like biomass. Many epoxies are 1/3
> peanut
> oil!! But one has to look at the whole system.
> Because
> composite EV/cars done right weigh 40% less for the
> same
> performance one would save 100's of times as much
> oil in
> fuel costs than the puny 30 gal used in a Sunrise
> size car.
> Even compared to another EV in metal this is true.
> How much
> coal is in a steel car? That's much worse
> enviromental wise.
>          Now add the 40% smaller battery pack,
> controller,
> motor, charger, ect and those  gals of resin look
> mighty
> good use of oil.
>
>  > They can't be burned.
>
>          Of course they can be. I do that to find
> out what
> layup a piece of FG is. But sticking around for
> decades is a
> good idea as it doesn't rust. I'd think that would
> be a good
> thing. It's replacing a car every 2 yrs that's
> driving up
> costs.
>
>
>  They
> >can't have dents removed. Damaged parts   must be
> replaced
> >with more fiberglass composite parts and the old  
> ones
> >disposed of.
>
>      I guess  haven't been doing that for 30 yrs???
> Also
> composites are much less likely to be damaged as
> they are
> harder, stronger than metal skins, parts. And
> composite are
> very easy to repair,much easier than steel or worse
> alum.
>
>
> >
> >On the other side of the equation the metal bodies
> can be
> >recycled   back into panels to be made into more
> parts if
> >the original part is   beyond repair. They can be
> reformed
> >and repaired. Metal bodies can be   recycled and
> plastic
> >parts can be also.
>
>        While composite cars don't rust where they
> need to be
> replaced. I'm building mine to keep for the rest of
> my life.
> That's true savings, enviromentalism.
>        Have you counted the energy/coal, ect needed
> to
> recycle steel? I'd bet it's more than it takes to
> build a
> composite EV in the first place.
>
> >
> >I don't think there are any recycled fiberglass
> composites
> >on the   market that can be recycled into
> fiberglass
> >composites.
>
>         If one wanted to recycle them they could
> just be
> heated to 700F where they would off gas HC's which
> could be
> converted back to resin or fuels. Could be done with
> solar
> thermal power. The fiber recycles too.
>
> >
> >I think it would be better to stick with the steel
> or
> >aluminum uni-  body and dispense with the
> composites.
>
>           Go for it!! While my composite EV goes
> 1.5x's as
> far on the same drive, pack on 33% less
> electricity/mile.
>
>                           Jerry Dycus
>
>
> >
> >Unless of course you have something better and more
> eco
> >friendly than   steel uni-bodies.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I have not looked for better composites that are
> bio
> >friendly.
> >
> >Ideas? Or are composites just a real wrench in the
> works?
> >
> >On a mass produced level that would be loads of
> garbage
> >just like old   glass boats littered everywhere.
> >
> >How to dispose of them is a real big problem.
> >
> >Pete
> >
> >:  )
> >
> >
> >On Nov 30, 2007, at 11:05 PM,
> <[hidden email]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> If someone sends money to your project,
> especially a
> >> large sum like $1,000, I would hope they see it
> purely as
> >> a   donation and not
> >> as an investment.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

Lee Hart
>> On a mass produced level that [Composites] would be loads of
>> garbage just like old glass boats littered everywhere.
>
Jack Murray wrote:
> That is an excellent point, thanks for pointing that
> out.  

At one extreme (popular at the moment), things are built as cheaply as
possible, they fail early, can't be repaired, and people just throw them
away. This may be cheaper in the short run, but turns out to be more
expensive in the long term. It is not a sustainable strategy.

At the other extreme, things are built to last, can be repaired, and
when they do wear out, they get recycled. I think society is coming to
realize that it is wiser (and even necessary) to take this approach.

Steel and composites are both energy intensive, and both can produce
massive amounts of waste and pollution. Both can be blindly discarded,
or carefully recycled. A change in materials alone is not going to
produce any miraculous benefit. That will only come by a change of
*attitude*.

 > I note that Jerry is emphatic about not recycling old cars into EVs,
 > but creating new ones. The argument your new EV will last forever
 > and won't have to be recycled is a contradiction.

I have to say that Jerry Dycus does more recycling, reuse, and repair
than anyone I know. His earlier composite vehicles were made of *wood*,
which is about as recyclable as it gets. He switched to fiberglass only
because *customers* weren't willing to accept it (despite houses, boats,
and airplanes all be commonly built out of wood).

He doesn't convert cars that were good enough to be repaired as ICEs.
Instead, he reuses good parts from cars so dead that there is no hope of
them ever moving under their own power again!

The way Jerry's Freedom EV is built, I really can imagine it lasting
"forever", because anything can be repaired or replaced. It's like the
old joke about grandfather's axe. "Son, this was your grandpa's axe when
he was a boy. He passed it on to me, and now I'm giving it to you. It's
a great axe and a family heirloom. In all that time it's only had two
new heads and six new handles."
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Composite , Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt ???

gottdi
You betcha! Glad to hear that.

Pete :  )



On Dec 1, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

> That will only come by a change of
> *attitude*.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.