Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

brucedp5
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 12 Nov 2014 at 0:26, brucedp via EV wrote:

> Anyone seeing an automaker pattern here?

I read the same thing about the gas-only "hybrids" 10 years ago - though
it's interesting to note that back then - as today - some automotive
managers said "they can't be made profitable" while others said, more
quietly, "we will make them profitable."

Automotive managers are focused on their own bottom lines; that's their job,
I guess. EVs DO provide a financial return, but the return is long-term and
accrues to all of society - for now.

The Mideast oil boycott of the mid-1970s changed the auto industry forever.
The automakers who were ready with good, small, appealing fuel-efficient
ICEVs (Toyota, Nissan) saw their sales profits increase.  They couldn't
build the cars fast enough to meet the demand.  The automakers who had put
very little effort into efficient cars and relied on big, inefficient cars
to make their shareholders happy (GM, Ford, Chrysler, AMC) took the hit.

When the world or US again experience fuel shortages (for whatever reason),
the financial return will go to those manufacturers well-prepared with good,
efficient, already-developed EVs ready to sell.

Government could push that process ahead by returning some of that long-term
social benefit to the manufacturer in the form of immediate tax breaks based
on the number of EVs they sell.  

I have my doubts that this will happen in the US - I'm not at all sure that
the current tax credits and subsidies to buyers will even continue - but I
think it's more possible in some European and Asian nations.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by brucedp2
No money in EVs?  It's a good thing Elon Musk doesn't know that.  I seem to
see more Model S's around where I live than newish Mercedes.

There are none so blind....

Chris
On Nov 12, 2014 3:31 AM, "brucedp via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> % Anyone seeing an automaker pattern here? Dejavu %
>
> http://gas2.org/2014/11/07/money-evs-says-mercedes-chief/
> No Money In EV’s Says Mercedes Chief
> [2014/11/07]
>
> [image
> http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/mercedes-b-class-ED-2.jpg
> mercedes-b-class-ED-2
> ]
>
> Mercedes chief Dieter Zetsche was in Spain this week to introduce the
> Mercedes Benz B Class Electric Drive. While there, he told a press
> conference that the money Mercedes and other automakers are investing into
> EVs won’t be returned to them anytime soon.
>
> According to Green Car Reports, Zetsche was quoted as saying;
>
> “Manufacturers will not see a return within a reasonable time on the
> billions they’re investing now in electric cars. You can reasonably say
> that
> nobody today is making a battery-powered vehicle that’s economically viable
> in its own right.”
>
> If the head of Mercedes Benz says there is no money in EV’s, what does that
> say for the future of electric cars? How can manufacturers justify spending
> billions to develop battery powered vehicles to their shareholders if, as
> Zetsche says, there won’t be a significant return on that investment in a
> reasonable time?
>
> A big part of the problem is that EV sales have been considerably lower
> than
> anticipated. Manufacturers will need to move a lot more electrics if they
> want to recoup their investment and eventually make a profit. According to
> Bloomberg News, demand for electric vehicles has been developing slower
> than
> expected. Buyers are deterred by high vehicle prices and fears of being
> stranded along the roadside by a dead battery.
>
> Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault and Nisan, predicted his companies would sell
> 1.5 million electric cars by 2016. But IHS Automotive suggests global sales
> will not top 1 million cars per year until 2020, and even that will be just
> 1% of the market. EV sales this year are not expected to exceed 0.3% of the
> global new car market. Ghosn has since revised his prediction to 1.5
> million
> EVs by 2020, which is still 50% more than the IHS Automotive prediction.
>
> Mercedes thought it could limit its costs by using an existing chassis and
> turning to Tesla to supply the batteries and motors for the B Class
> Electric. As a result, the Mercedes EV weighs almost 500 lbs more than
> BMW’s
> similarly sized i3, which was built from the ground-up as an electric
> vehicle. The battery pack takes up a large chunk of the rear cargo area in
> the Mercedes, limiting the usefulness its hatchback design and failing to
> impress Consumer Reports.
>
> In the end, Mercedes elected to take the cheapest way out. BMW, on the
> other
> hand, not only offers a range extender option but also designed its car to
> look different from every other car in the market. Carlos Ghosn has also
> said that the Nissan LEAF is nearing profitability as the company continues
> to invest in electric cars and battery technology. Those are important
> differences to buyers and why industry analyst IHS predicts the BMW i3 wil
> outsell the B Class 5 to 1. No wonder BMW has a sunnier view of the future
> of EV’s than Mercedes does, and why the Benz CEO has such a sour outlook on
> electric cars.
> [© gas2.org]
> ...
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095285_mercedes-ceo-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-in-reasonable-time
> Mercedes CEO: No One Will Make Money On Electric Cars In 'Reasonable Time'
> By John Voelcker  Nov 5, 2014
> ...
>
> http://www.carxmotor.com/2014/11/07/mercedes-benz-ceo-says-nobody-is-making-money-on-electric-cars-in/
> Mercedes-Benz CEO says nobody is making money on EVs ...
> Nov 6, 2014
> ...
>
> http://www.benzinsider.com/2014/11/daimler-boss-says-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-yet/
> Daimler Boss Says No One Will Make Money on Electric Cars Yet
> Giancarlo Perlas  [2014/11/09]
> ...
>
> http://www.insidercarnews.com/daimler-ceo-says-electric-cars-not-profitable/
> Daimler CEO Says Electric Cars Not Profitable
> by Steven Symes  Nov 11, 2014
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN posts use:
>
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate
>
>
> http://www.scillytoday.com/2014/11/05/council-launches-project-to-get-islanders-driving-electric-cars/
> Project To Get Scilly.uk Islanders Driving Electric Cars
> ...
> http://www.visitislesofscilly.com/
>
> http://descrier.co.uk/technology/non-ev-vehicles-classed-green-cars/
> Non-EV vehicles Should-Not be classed as “green cars”
>
> http://www.uml.edu/News/stories/2014/Electric-Car-Charging-Stations.aspx
> UML's O’Mahony taps MassEVIP to bring on campus L2 EVSE w/ L3 planned
> +
> EVLN: Boosted Boards’ New Faster And Cheaper e-Skateboards
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mercedes-Sez-There-s-No-Money-In-Selling-EVs-tp4672549.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
> No money in EVs?  It's a good thing Elon Musk doesn't know that.  I seem to
> see more Model S's around where I live than newish Mercedes.

Tesla isn't profitable (yet). Like David said, EVs are a long-term
investment. The automakers that are complaining are the ones who can't
think past this year's bottom line.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
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Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Sometimes you just have to hate HEADLINES.

The second sentence in the article says that there is a long payback for
OEM building EVs.  Not the same thing at all.  Doesn't say whether or not
the profit will be large when it is over, is it good for the world, naught.

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 3:26 AM, brucedp via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> % Anyone seeing an automaker pattern here? Dejavu %
>
> http://gas2.org/2014/11/07/money-evs-says-mercedes-chief/
> No Money In EV’s Says Mercedes Chief
> [2014/11/07]
>
> [image
> http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/mercedes-b-class-ED-2.jpg
> mercedes-b-class-ED-2
> ]
>
> Mercedes chief Dieter Zetsche was in Spain this week to introduce the
> Mercedes Benz B Class Electric Drive. While there, he told a press
> conference that the money Mercedes and other automakers are investing into
> EVs won’t be returned to them anytime soon.
>
> According to Green Car Reports, Zetsche was quoted as saying;
>
> “Manufacturers will not see a return within a reasonable time on the
> billions they’re investing now in electric cars. You can reasonably say
> that
> nobody today is making a battery-powered vehicle that’s economically viable
> in its own right.”
>
> If the head of Mercedes Benz says there is no money in EV’s, what does that
> say for the future of electric cars? How can manufacturers justify spending
> billions to develop battery powered vehicles to their shareholders if, as
> Zetsche says, there won’t be a significant return on that investment in a
> reasonable time?
>
> A big part of the problem is that EV sales have been considerably lower
> than
> anticipated. Manufacturers will need to move a lot more electrics if they
> want to recoup their investment and eventually make a profit. According to
> Bloomberg News, demand for electric vehicles has been developing slower
> than
> expected. Buyers are deterred by high vehicle prices and fears of being
> stranded along the roadside by a dead battery.
>
> Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault and Nisan, predicted his companies would sell
> 1.5 million electric cars by 2016. But IHS Automotive suggests global sales
> will not top 1 million cars per year until 2020, and even that will be just
> 1% of the market. EV sales this year are not expected to exceed 0.3% of the
> global new car market. Ghosn has since revised his prediction to 1.5
> million
> EVs by 2020, which is still 50% more than the IHS Automotive prediction.
>
> Mercedes thought it could limit its costs by using an existing chassis and
> turning to Tesla to supply the batteries and motors for the B Class
> Electric. As a result, the Mercedes EV weighs almost 500 lbs more than
> BMW’s
> similarly sized i3, which was built from the ground-up as an electric
> vehicle. The battery pack takes up a large chunk of the rear cargo area in
> the Mercedes, limiting the usefulness its hatchback design and failing to
> impress Consumer Reports.
>
> In the end, Mercedes elected to take the cheapest way out. BMW, on the
> other
> hand, not only offers a range extender option but also designed its car to
> look different from every other car in the market. Carlos Ghosn has also
> said that the Nissan LEAF is nearing profitability as the company continues
> to invest in electric cars and battery technology. Those are important
> differences to buyers and why industry analyst IHS predicts the BMW i3 wil
> outsell the B Class 5 to 1. No wonder BMW has a sunnier view of the future
> of EV’s than Mercedes does, and why the Benz CEO has such a sour outlook on
> electric cars.
> [© gas2.org]
> ...
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095285_mercedes-ceo-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-in-reasonable-time
> Mercedes CEO: No One Will Make Money On Electric Cars In 'Reasonable Time'
> By John Voelcker  Nov 5, 2014
> ...
>
> http://www.carxmotor.com/2014/11/07/mercedes-benz-ceo-says-nobody-is-making-money-on-electric-cars-in/
> Mercedes-Benz CEO says nobody is making money on EVs ...
> Nov 6, 2014
> ...
>
> http://www.benzinsider.com/2014/11/daimler-boss-says-no-one-will-make-money-on-electric-cars-yet/
> Daimler Boss Says No One Will Make Money on Electric Cars Yet
> Giancarlo Perlas  [2014/11/09]
> ...
>
> http://www.insidercarnews.com/daimler-ceo-says-electric-cars-not-profitable/
> Daimler CEO Says Electric Cars Not Profitable
> by Steven Symes  Nov 11, 2014
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN posts use:
>
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate
>
>
> http://www.scillytoday.com/2014/11/05/council-launches-project-to-get-islanders-driving-electric-cars/
> Project To Get Scilly.uk Islanders Driving Electric Cars
> ...
> http://www.visitislesofscilly.com/
>
> http://descrier.co.uk/technology/non-ev-vehicles-classed-green-cars/
> Non-EV vehicles Should-Not be classed as “green cars”
>
> http://www.uml.edu/News/stories/2014/Electric-Car-Charging-Stations.aspx
> UML's O’Mahony taps MassEVIP to bring on campus L2 EVSE w/ L3 planned
> +
> EVLN: Boosted Boards’ New Faster And Cheaper e-Skateboards
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mercedes-Sez-There-s-No-Money-In-Selling-EVs-tp4672549.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
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happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Nov 12, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tesla isn't profitable (yet).

Not to go all "citation needed," on you, but do you have any details on that? It's my understanding that they're bringing in more money than they're spending, but that they still have startup debts to pay off. They're also spending on capital to expand capacity. If that's the case, "the man on the street" may well describe them as profitable even though an accountant or banker might not. But that same lack of profit would similarly apply to everybody with an outstanding mortgage balance....

And, again, I don't have their financial figures at hand or even necessarily know what I'd do with them if you gave them to me.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
That's an important point.  Growth is spectacularly cash-hungry, and Tesla
is growing at a pretty good clip.  For years.  Many young businesses would
have folded long ago.  Tesla is now planning a how-many-billion-dollar
gigafactory?

These guys just don't know how to play by the rules.

Chris
On Nov 12, 2014 12:40 PM, "Ben Goren via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 12, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Tesla isn't profitable (yet).
>
> Not to go all "citation needed," on you, but do you have any details on
> that? It's my understanding that they're bringing in more money than
> they're spending, but that they still have startup debts to pay off.
> They're also spending on capital to expand capacity. If that's the case,
> "the man on the street" may well describe them as profitable even though an
> accountant or banker might not. But that same lack of profit would
> similarly apply to everybody with an outstanding mortgage balance....
>
> And, again, I don't have their financial figures at hand or even
> necessarily know what I'd do with them if you gave them to me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> b&
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Nov 12, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Tesla isn't profitable (yet).

Not correct. They've shown positive earnings the last 2 quarters, which makes what they've done quite extraordinary in such a short period of time.

You might argue that the cars themselves are not profitable yet if the numbers show that they would have lost money had it not been been for selling credits, but I haven't looked at the data, and would argue that it's a nitpic.
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It is a matter of defining the business case,
is it limited to the profit of selling cars (often unprofitable)
or is it the whole pie: services, maintenance, profit from credits and
so on. If the books are positive at the end of the year, do you really
care where that came from as long as it is sustainable and legal?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:50 AM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

On Nov 12, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Tesla isn't profitable (yet).

Not correct. They've shown positive earnings the last 2 quarters, which
makes what they've done quite extraordinary in such a short period of
time.

You might argue that the cars themselves are not profitable yet if the
numbers show that they would have lost money had it not been been for
selling credits, but I haven't looked at the data, and would argue that
it's a nitpic.
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I think both sides are correct here.  Tesla has positive margin on each car (about 30%), but overall isn't making a profit.

http://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/gross_profit_margin

Mike


On November 12, 2014 11:58:41 AM MST, Chris Tromley via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>That's an important point.  Growth is spectacularly cash-hungry, and
>Tesla
>is growing at a pretty good clip.  For years.  Many young businesses
>would
>have folded long ago.  Tesla is now planning a how-many-billion-dollar
>gigafactory?
>
>These guys just don't know how to play by the rules.
>
>Chris
>On Nov 12, 2014 12:40 PM, "Ben Goren via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 12, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> > Tesla isn't profitable (yet).
>>
>> Not to go all "citation needed," on you, but do you have any details
>on
>> that? It's my understanding that they're bringing in more money than
>> they're spending, but that they still have startup debts to pay off.
>> They're also spending on capital to expand capacity. If that's the
>case,
>> "the man on the street" may well describe them as profitable even
>though an
>> accountant or banker might not. But that same lack of profit would
>> similarly apply to everybody with an outstanding mortgage balance....
>>
>> And, again, I don't have their financial figures at hand or even
>> necessarily know what I'd do with them if you gave them to me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> b&
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Looking at a stock ticker, their trailing twelve month EPS is -$1.35 and they don't have a PE ratio.  I think they are turning the corner, but I wouldn't generally describe them as profitable yet.

Mike

On November 12, 2014 12:50:02 PM MST, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On Nov 12, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Tesla isn't profitable (yet).
>
>Not correct. They've shown positive earnings the last 2 quarters, which
>makes what they've done quite extraordinary in such a short period of
>time.
>
>You might argue that the cars themselves are not profitable yet if the
>numbers show that they would have lost money had it not been been for
>selling credits, but I haven't looked at the data, and would argue that
>it's a nitpic.
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Re: EVLN: Mercedes Sez There's No Money In Selling EVs

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Trailing 12 months EPS isn't really relevant. Adjusted EPS was 11 cents a share in Q2 and 2 cents in Q3. Their Q4 guidance is 30-35 cents a share.  

Sounds like a newly profitable company to me.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 12, 2014, at 12:22 PM, Mike Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looking at a stock ticker, their trailing twelve month EPS is -$1.35 and they don't have a PE ratio.  I think they are turning the corner, but I wouldn't generally describe them as profitable yet.
>
> Mike
>
>> On November 12, 2014 12:50:02 PM MST, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Nov 12, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tesla isn't profitable (yet).
>>
>> Not correct. They've shown positive earnings the last 2 quarters, which
>> makes what they've done quite extraordinary in such a short period of
>> time.
>>
>> You might argue that the cars themselves are not profitable yet if the
>> numbers show that they would have lost money had it not been been for
>> selling credits, but I haven't looked at the data, and would argue that
>> it's a nitpic.
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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