Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> From: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>
>
> Whether it will be possible to
> make a high density supercap is yet to be seen.

Supercaps are currently 1-10 farads or so. A farad can supply an amp for a second.

The 21700 lithium cell being produced by Tesla can pump an amp for 18,000 seconds.

So yea, there's a density problem. :-)

Jan

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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

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On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 at 04:40, Jan Steinman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Supercaps are currently 1-10 farads or so. A farad can supply an amp for a second.

I think you might be a little out of touch on Supercaps.

I've had a sample Maxwell PC223 8 Farad cap on the shelf for nearly 30 years.

They've been into the multi 1000F range for years.

https://uk.farnell.com/cornell-dubilier/cdlc302p2r7lr/ultracapacitor3000f2-7v0-00026/dp/2113245?pf=110449709&krypto=PB3yvz0V97AaURYuqm4eafN2ZyPF9iml7r7lB73MB86%2Fx%2BfBO7r66S6Hv%2Bm%2FSEP4fVg8mqr%2Fz6GvzLwg7Uq%2FbdzatR5QTfC%2F993%2FMwwq9UqP1h8WlDqIRRYqBq8TrWOhGmtZ5P6sxXyrTmzJ6iTEw9aZr%2FTRgKvIf93tg96tOxa0jNm8AJlagHG4rDVAfwvzwGjfFUUDd5Xl5fXylHL%2FCuFPxMw96Tb%2BNYnB58F%2B1ZdQaNsge14noA2I8MtvZUqvYpivPFir5NHBv4gBwz6XwztBR6pRxSSB2YLu5P9kEL94UaLG9fRctJbWcqDQsNS0oAWHM15S8%2F49Wf8%2BHAT%2BdD8PwGkriJrm8WJmpMHu5dWSV5cJYccW1%2BMIzbU5gutB2QMZ%2FlTFduInegTsSOB61jcy06hybhnj3LyBEWEn86CaKEOVrw%2BWQJGi5VJnBcBGNJrkeO3B8urlziCTcgqAkBdRyqsz2%2FMfiiP3zcG2qQ1MOK%2BNIg7G9cE2wdck4mYBuDGHsyMpZ7E81c%2FAk%2B7u76AYu2C1Unl%2BjCjLO6mcHt11%2BiSja2NirYJDBnXI0BPcKx6ECSIOoxob5Ux9P5io3ym4tslO2mArKxCLISLGgEKAuQnsjyB4tt%2FjDZUcAn9ms%2F4G9Cr61ZjVFtpqZcsVdRHfHo8g7YoPk2C01SsuS0Nu4nPj13zX7nQWpwxbX%2B10wQQS5pwb1Y1PZn7OoWpa4k5XpXf5PN0Z%2F8AZdeRUo4RsVGnlWZoBdDrPkWYIirK8m33pweipQW0k73NWn%2FsiLK8Msc8%2FLh5uZmc9bHIi3czWpRC2DntwYB
 z%2FO%2FFaoFL0sZCBYRpm2RRZb2cPG88JU08Fo%2B620hqtE%2BJAcwC6FJv4ERhJY4lEBgB00b%2BbWDKummIlMKtJ5JEAjJgsWiNM6o129GgMNLHtZ8kIFHEzg5algFmSYnM59o0BvXdqWEnRJXPVT7VpbJ3UiV%2BLgY2Yb1BeBkY8Uwoo4%2F6cum8XqjMoTLAm4%2B2z%2FRu2ALFaOtwfdeFpL7KHY80Ji8AeXE7jLL1HwSL0byCZ18HxkTLywW4I%2BXNOfX8BKRc%2FICSJ3lJNGPfV5qP4xJUvlDkNNRMW7Xuft2hxOJUGsv0%2B3%2BJN5gDWqHQJYf0oTyBIv3arBUG9cJp6ZzUJLTmOs4fmbgEAYbN6WnlDMJfemN4fMvOZ2cbAf42Lp8hdF%2FUc9dRb6vJGTRjbl4T%2BUcwxmUMti%2BKKtJSpCM%2B9tPVlwBG74hd0Eoc3Zta65J2enq0sCMke%2BeWsd9FpBUS7RWAvvkNCF2JjzD21gisBZKuZIpmJNs3uYIycpRninBO3p3CeGuLuyDW%2BvGI5gySiiR7LmM6Tqc7ajQPRY7pb7n3UKaTJ4EtfVGAMLfZDAac2mxjQ5G1gxUHpLO2YkGi%2Ffj02xyMKSsJxxoyV%2FyBVXw9ucsf%2BgIiwfN13Vdwp%2BJi5YURr76dUd%2BaMaFdKqPysCkA51aTdGlxoAf23DHyM05fCwyQ0L2dXb0yrhKmffugIyAWPZ9gp6EW%2Fx4UMy7VcJOkQbWEtWtoyfw%3D%3D&ddkey=https%3Aen-GB%2FElement14_United_Kingdom%2Fc%2Fpassive-components%2Fcapacitors%2Fsupercap-ultracap-double-layer-capacitors


--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

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On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 3:00 PM Paul Compton via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 at 04:40, Jan Steinman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Supercaps are currently 1-10 farads or so. A farad can supply an amp for a second.
>
> I think you might be a little out of touch on Supercaps.
>
> I've had a sample Maxwell PC223 8 Farad cap on the shelf for nearly 30 years.
>
> They've been into the multi 1000F range for years.
>

Yes, but the bigger issue is that they unfortunately drop in
capacitance as you put them in series. So, you either parallel a whole
bunch of them and try to figure out a way to go from 2.5v at thousands
of amps up to some useful voltage or you put them in series and watch
as the capacitance plummets. I don't really know how they plan to get
around this aspect of capacitors. They just aren't that great in
series but you need high voltage for a car. It wouldn't be so bad if
super caps weren't almost exclusively 2.5 to 2.9v rated.
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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 25 Feb 2019 at 19:59, Paul Compton via EV wrote:

> https://uk.farnell.com/cornell-dubilier/cdlc302p2r7lr/ultracapacitor3000f2-7v0
> -00026/dp/2113245?pf=110449709&krypto=PB3yvz0V97AaURYuqm4eafN2ZyPF9iml7r7lB73M
> B86%2Fx%2BfBO7r66S6Hv%2Bm%2FSEP4fVg8mqr%2Fz6GvzLwg7Uq%2FbdzatR5QTfC%2F993%2FMw
> wq9UqP1h8WlDqIRRYqBq8TrWOhGmtZ5P6sxXyrTmzJ6iTEw9aZr%2FTRgKvIf93tg96tOxa0jNm8AJ
> lagHG4rDVAfwvzwGjfFUUDd5Xl5fXylHL%2FCuFPxMw96Tb%2BNYnB58F%2B1ZdQaNsge14noA2I8M
> tvZUqvYpivPFir5NHBv4gBwz6XwztBR6pRxSSB2YLu5P9kEL94UaLG9fRctJbWcqDQsNS0oAWHM15S
> 8%2F49Wf8%2BHAT%2BdD8PwGkriJrm8WJmpMHu5dWSV5cJYccW1%2BMIzbU5gutB2QMZ%2FlTFduIn
> egTsSOB61jcy06hybhnj3LyBEWEn86CaKEOVrw%2BWQJGi5VJnBcBGNJrkeO3B8urlziCTcgqAkBdR
> yqsz2%2FMfiiP3zcG2qQ1MOK%2BNIg7G9cE2wdck4mYBuDGHsyMpZ7E81c%2FAk%2B7u76AYu2C1Un
> l%2BjCjLO6mcHt11%2BiSja2NirYJDBnXI0BPcKx6ECSIOoxob5Ux9P5io3ym4tslO2mArKxCLISLG
> gEKAuQnsjyB4tt%2FjDZUcAn9ms%2F4G9Cr61ZjVFtpqZcsVdRHfHo8g7YoPk2C01SsuS0Nu4nPj13
> zX7nQWpwxbX%2B10wQQS5pwb1Y1PZn7OoWpa4k5XpXf5PN0Z%2F8AZdeRUo4RsVGnlWZoBdDrPkWYI
> irK8m33pweipQW0k73NWn%2FsiLK8Msc8%2FLh5uZmc9bHIi3czWpRC2DntwYB
>  z%2FO%2FFaoFL0sZCBYRpm2RRZb2cPG88JU08Fo%2B620hqtE%2BJAcwC6FJv4ERhJY4lEBgB00b%
>  2BbWDKummIlMKtJ5JEAjJgsWiNM6o129GgMNLHtZ8kIFHEzg5algFmSYnM59o0BvXdqWEnRJXPVT7
>  VpbJ3UiV%2BLgY2Yb1BeBkY8Uwoo4%2F6cum8XqjMoTLAm4%2B2z%2FRu2ALFaOtwfdeFpL7KHY80
>  Ji8AeXE7jLL1HwSL0byCZ18HxkTLywW4I%2BXNOfX8BKRc%2FICSJ3lJNGPfV5qP4xJUvlDkNNRMW
>  7Xuft2hxOJUGsv0%2B3%2BJN5gDWqHQJYf0oTyBIv3arBUG9cJp6ZzUJLTmOs4fmbgEAYbN6WnlDM
>  JfemN4fMvOZ2cbAf42Lp8hdF%2FUc9dRb6vJGTRjbl4T%2BUcwxmUMti%2BKKtJSpCM%2B9tPVlwB
>  G74hd0Eoc3Zta65J2enq0sCMke%2BeWsd9FpBUS7RWAvvkNCF2JjzD21gisBZKuZIpmJNs3uYIycp
>  RninBO3p3CeGuLuyDW%2BvGI5gySiiR7LmM6Tqc7ajQPRY7pb7n3UKaTJ4EtfVGAMLfZDAac2mxjQ
>  5G1gxUHpLO2YkGi%2Ffj02xyMKSsJxxoyV%2FyBVXw9ucsf%2BgIiwfN13Vdwp%2BJi5YURr76dUd
>  %2BaMaFdKqPysCkA51aTdGlxoAf23DHyM05fCwyQ0L2dXb0yrhKmffugIyAWPZ9gp6EW%2Fx4UMy7
>  VcJOkQbWEtWtoyfw%3D%3D&ddkey=https%3Aen-GB%2FElement14_United_Kingdom%2Fc%2Fp
>  assive-components%2Fcapacitors%2Fsupercap-ultracap-double-layer-capacitors

What the Sam Hill is THAT?  

It would be interesting to see the examples cited, but I don't have enough
years of life left that I'm willing to invest the amount of my time I'd need
to re-assemble that hideous url and find the page.

EV folks share links, just as you tried to do here.  That's their nature.  
Cornell Dubilier's broken website effectively makes link sharing impossible.
I sure hope their engineers and chemists are more competent than their web
designers.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Trim off everything "?" and everything after it:


                         
https://uk.farnell.com/cornell-dubilier/cdlc302p2r7lr/ultracapacitor3000f2-7v0
-00026/dp/2113245


Len Moskowitz


-----


On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 04:19 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> On 25 Feb 2019 at 19:59, Paul Compton via EV wrote:
>
>>
>> https://uk.farnell.com/cornell-dubilier/cdlc302p2r7lr/ultracapacitor3000f2-7v0
>>
>> -00026/dp/2113245?pf=110449709&krypto=PB3yvz0V97AaURYuqm4eafN2ZyPF9iml7r7lB73M
>>
>> B86%2Fx%2BfBO7r66S6Hv%2Bm%2FSEP4fVg8mqr%2Fz6GvzLwg7Uq%2FbdzatR5QTfC%2F993%2FMw
>>
>> wq9UqP1h8WlDqIRRYqBq8TrWOhGmtZ5P6sxXyrTmzJ6iTEw9aZr%2FTRgKvIf93tg96tOxa0jNm8AJ
>>
>> lagHG4rDVAfwvzwGjfFUUDd5Xl5fXylHL%2FCuFPxMw96Tb%2BNYnB58F%2B1ZdQaNsge14noA2I8M
>>
>> tvZUqvYpivPFir5NHBv4gBwz6XwztBR6pRxSSB2YLu5P9kEL94UaLG9fRctJbWcqDQsNS0oAWHM15S
>>
>> 8%2F49Wf8%2BHAT%2BdD8PwGkriJrm8WJmpMHu5dWSV5cJYccW1%2BMIzbU5gutB2QMZ%2FlTFduIn
>>
>> egTsSOB61jcy06hybhnj3LyBEWEn86CaKEOVrw%2BWQJGi5VJnBcBGNJrkeO3B8urlziCTcgqAkBdR
>>
>> yqsz2%2FMfiiP3zcG2qQ1MOK%2BNIg7G9cE2wdck4mYBuDGHsyMpZ7E81c%2FAk%2B7u76AYu2C1Un
>>
>> l%2BjCjLO6mcHt11%2BiSja2NirYJDBnXI0BPcKx6ECSIOoxob5Ux9P5io3ym4tslO2mArKxCLISLG
>>
>> gEKAuQnsjyB4tt%2FjDZUcAn9ms%2F4G9Cr61ZjVFtpqZcsVdRHfHo8g7YoPk2C01SsuS0Nu4nPj13
>>
>> zX7nQWpwxbX%2B10wQQS5pwb1Y1PZn7OoWpa4k5XpXf5PN0Z%2F8AZdeRUo4RsVGnlWZoBdDrPkWYI
>> irK8m33pweipQW0k73NWn%2FsiLK8Msc8%2FLh5uZmc9bHIi3czWpRC2DntwYB
>>
>> z%2FO%2FFaoFL0sZCBYRpm2RRZb2cPG88JU08Fo%2B620hqtE%2BJAcwC6FJv4ERhJY4lEBgB00b%
>>
>> 2BbWDKummIlMKtJ5JEAjJgsWiNM6o129GgMNLHtZ8kIFHEzg5algFmSYnM59o0BvXdqWEnRJXPVT7
>>
>> VpbJ3UiV%2BLgY2Yb1BeBkY8Uwoo4%2F6cum8XqjMoTLAm4%2B2z%2FRu2ALFaOtwfdeFpL7KHY80
>>
>> Ji8AeXE7jLL1HwSL0byCZ18HxkTLywW4I%2BXNOfX8BKRc%2FICSJ3lJNGPfV5qP4xJUvlDkNNRMW
>>
>> 7Xuft2hxOJUGsv0%2B3%2BJN5gDWqHQJYf0oTyBIv3arBUG9cJp6ZzUJLTmOs4fmbgEAYbN6WnlDM
>>
>> JfemN4fMvOZ2cbAf42Lp8hdF%2FUc9dRb6vJGTRjbl4T%2BUcwxmUMti%2BKKtJSpCM%2B9tPVlwB
>>
>> G74hd0Eoc3Zta65J2enq0sCMke%2BeWsd9FpBUS7RWAvvkNCF2JjzD21gisBZKuZIpmJNs3uYIycp
>>
>> RninBO3p3CeGuLuyDW%2BvGI5gySiiR7LmM6Tqc7ajQPRY7pb7n3UKaTJ4EtfVGAMLfZDAac2mxjQ
>>
>> 5G1gxUHpLO2YkGi%2Ffj02xyMKSsJxxoyV%2FyBVXw9ucsf%2BgIiwfN13Vdwp%2BJi5YURr76dUd
>>
>> %2BaMaFdKqPysCkA51aTdGlxoAf23DHyM05fCwyQ0L2dXb0yrhKmffugIyAWPZ9gp6EW%2Fx4UMy7
>>
>> VcJOkQbWEtWtoyfw%3D%3D&ddkey=https%3Aen-GB%2FElement14_United_Kingdom%2Fc%2Fp
>>
>> assive-components%2Fcapacitors%2Fsupercap-ultracap-double-layer-capacitors
>
> What the Sam Hill is THAT?
> It would be interesting to see the examples cited, but I don't have
> enough years of life left that I'm willing to invest the amount of my
> time I'd need to re-assemble that hideous url and find the page.
>
> EV folks share links, just as you tried to do here.  That's their
> nature.   Cornell Dubilier's broken website effectively makes link
> sharing impossible. I sure hope their engineers and chemists are more
> competent than their web designers.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail
> sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send a
> private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 25 Feb 2019 at 16:54, Len Moskowitz via EV wrote:

> Trim off everything "?" and everything after it:

Excellent!  Thank you for the help.  

Three thousand farads at 2.7 volts!  Except that it's 2.7 volts for only a
fraction of a second.  :-(

I think that super/ultra caps have been used in experimental liquid fuel
only quasi-hybrids.  IIRC EVDLer Jeff Major was involved with at least one
such trial, and he might have some comments if he's tuned in.

Solectria also used supercaps experimentally as current levelers in EVs, in
an effort to get more range out of lead batteries.  They worked, but the
rapid voltage fall of capacitors meant they needed a DC:DC converter, and
its (in)efficiency was a problem.  Also, the range improvement was very
dependent on how the vehicle was driven.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/supercap_leveler.pdf

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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