Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
For the home, never repair or replace or buy another Air Conditioner!

Spend a $100 more and get the two-way Heatpump model.  Whether it is a
window unit, portable 2-hose unit or whole house AC, replace it with a
heatpump.

Even if you have oil or gas heat.  Run the Heatpump all the time in the
winter will save you HALF of the cost of oil for every BTU it puts in the
house.  At current Gas prices, it is kind of wash, but the advantage of
the heatpump is that it can be 100% fossil fuel free when powered by solar
or utility subscribed wind.

I even hang some old window AC-only units in some rooms or basement joists
backwards so they can be used as a heat source in the winter.

Just sayin...
Bob, Wb4APR

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance
> heating.

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.
I've read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat
pumps would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will tolerate
Yugo- class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came
with a pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the blower
on LOW position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a little
warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP from
an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or trying to
convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work in a vehicle
with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have no idea where to
start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have avoided getting into this discussion on heat pumps because I started the discussion with my question about the size of a resistance heating element for a small car like the VW and the question was answered.  However, everyone is praising the efficiency of a heat pump.  Efficiency is not he whole story when it comes to heating a house and maybe a car.  A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot a people.  A coal fired heating unit register output is over 140 F.  An oil fired unit is approximately 140 F and a gas fired unit is approximately 120 F.  In addition, a heat pump unit must run a longer time to maintain the heat losses from a house.  Heat pumps run most of the time blowing cool air.  Fossil fuels output a high temperature at the register and do not run as long.  In determining the best method of heating a structure, efficiency must be balanced with comfort.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

For the home, never repair or replace or buy another Air Conditioner!

Spend a $100 more and get the two-way Heatpump model.  Whether it is a
window unit, portable 2-hose unit or whole house AC, replace it with a
heatpump.

Even if you have oil or gas heat.  Run the Heatpump all the time in the
winter will save you HALF of the cost of oil for every BTU it puts in the
house.  At current Gas prices, it is kind of wash, but the advantage of
the heatpump is that it can be 100% fossil fuel free when powered by solar
or utility subscribed wind.

I even hang some old window AC-only units in some rooms or basement joists
backwards so they can be used as a heat source in the winter.

Just sayin...
Bob, Wb4APR

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance
> heating.

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.
I've read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat
pumps would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will tolerate
Yugo- class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came
with a pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the blower
on LOW position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a little
warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP from
an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or trying to
convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work in a vehicle
with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have no idea where to
start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
That is why Heat Pump heaters are preferably designed without registers,
meaning that they do not blow air.
I have always been amazed by how most of USA has forced air blowing
around through their house, which I find
rather uncomfortable. I am from Europe, where you have radiators under
windows that are warmed with
warm water and air in the room naturally circulates at a very low speed
(natural convection) throughout the room.
Many houses are even converted to radiant floor heating, where the
entire floor is brought to the room temp
so no air flow is needed at all, to warm up the room without requiring
extremely hot source heat, just the
slightly-above-room-temp output of an efficiently running heat pump.
You *can* create hotter output from the heat pump, there even are
air-to-air heat pumps,
but they are not  as efficient as those warming the structure with low
water temperature.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:15 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
unit)

I have avoided getting into this discussion on heat pumps because I
started the discussion with my question about the size of a resistance
heating element for a small car like the VW and the question was
answered.  However, everyone is praising the efficiency of a heat pump.
Efficiency is not he whole story when it comes to heating a house and
maybe a car.  A heat pump outputs a register temperature of
approximately 90 F.  This low a temperature blowing across your skin is
not comfortable to a lot a people.  A coal fired heating unit register
output is over 140 F.  An oil fired unit is approximately 140 F and a
gas fired unit is approximately 120 F.  In addition, a heat pump unit
must run a longer time to maintain the heat losses from a house.  Heat
pumps run most of the time blowing cool air.  Fossil fuels output a high
temperature at the register and do not run as long.  In determining the
best method of heating a structure, efficiency must be balanced with
comfort.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:16 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
unit)

For the home, never repair or replace or buy another Air Conditioner!

Spend a $100 more and get the two-way Heatpump model.  Whether it is a
window unit, portable 2-hose unit or whole house AC, replace it with a
heatpump.

Even if you have oil or gas heat.  Run the Heatpump all the time in the
winter will save you HALF of the cost of oil for every BTU it puts in
the house.  At current Gas prices, it is kind of wash, but the advantage
of the heatpump is that it can be 100% fossil fuel free when powered by
solar or utility subscribed wind.

I even hang some old window AC-only units in some rooms or basement
joists backwards so they can be used as a heat source in the winter.

Just sayin...
Bob, Wb4APR

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance

> heating.

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.
I've read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat
pumps would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will
tolerate
Yugo- class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came
with a pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the
blower on LOW position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a
little
warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP
from an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or
trying to convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work
in a vehicle with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have
no idea where to start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
> low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
> a people.

I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.

I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
does the air from the vents feel in the winter?  

I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.

That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.  
Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.

Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
to have auxiliary resistive heat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

Cor van de Water said (in part):
> I have always been amazed by how most of USA has forced air blowing
> around through their house, which I find
> rather uncomfortable. I am from Europe, where you have radiators under
> windows that are warmed with
> warm water and air in the room naturally circulates at a very low speed
> (natural convection) throughout the room.
 
 
You're entitled to your opinion, but I HATED radiators which were the norm in schools when I was a kid.  You always ended up with the kids on one side of the room frying while the kids on the other side of the room wearing heavy jackets to keep warm.  Same thing with the floor furnace that was in my grandparent's house.  In cold weather we'd all huddle within 10 feet of the furnace while the rest of the house was frigid.

 
 73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
 
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with a thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of about 68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return air.  The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not help the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
> low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
> a people.

I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.

I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
does the air from the vents feel in the winter?

I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.

That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.

Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
to have auxiliary resistive heat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The "mini split" type heat pumps and AC units that I have installed in
my house have a single outside unit and multiple (2) inside units.

The inside units have a finned coil and a fan. The outside units have a
finned coil, fan, compressor, and the control electronics. (They have
variable frequency drives running _everything_.) The inside units
typically mount near the ceiling on the wall.

Here is a link with pictures of a typical installation:
https://www.bobvila.com/articles/mini-splits/#.Wh-azHlrxpg

The ones with a high SEER rating are _unbelievably_ quiet. Less noise
that a refrigerator. We often completely forget that they are on. Maybe
45 dB with the fan set to maximum.

Typically, we set the fan speed to "automatic" so the fan speed varies
with the demand on the system. The system slowly ramps up and down to
meet the demand. All fans and the compressor are controlled by VFD's so
nothing cycles on and off. You set the temperature on the remote and the
system heats or cools to maintain that temperature in that room. The
units each have there own remote and you can set the temperature of each
room independently. (You can't set one room to heat and another to cool
if the inside units share an outside unit.)

On the particular model we have, you can chose to set the temperature
sensor on the remote, or on the wall unit, to control the wall unit.
Thus, if you are working at your desk that is some distance from the
wall unit, you set the remote to sense the temperature, and place the
remote near you.

The high SEER demands that the temperature difference between the room
and the finned coil be as low as practical. There is no reason to have
120 F air coming out of the inside unit, unless you have set the desired
room temperature that high. (I think the maximum room temperature set
point is maybe 90 F.) The air coming out of the unit is maybe 5 or 10
degrees different than the desired room temperature.

Folks that have these modern units absolutely love them. We bought one
at first for the master bedroom and the office. After a year, we bought
one for the other side of the house, and then bought one for the garage.

Bill D.




On 11/29/2017 10:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>
>> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
>> low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
>> a people.
> I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>
> I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
> does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>
> I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
> not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
> at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
> that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.
>
> That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
> Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
> the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
> above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
> temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
> temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.
>
> Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
> feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
> to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

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Here in THAILAND it's what most use

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-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]>
To: ev <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, Nov 30, 2017 01:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)


The "mini split" type heat pumps and AC units that I have installed in
my house have a single outside unit and multiple (2) inside units.

The inside units have a finned coil and a fan. The outside units have a
finned coil, fan, compressor, and the control electronics. (They have
variable frequency drives running _everything_.) The inside units
typically mount near the ceiling on the wall.

Here is a link with pictures of a typical installation:
<a href="https://www.bobvila.com/articles/mini-splits/#.Wh-azHlrxpg" target="_blank">https://www.bobvila.com/articles/mini-splits/#.Wh-azHlrxpg</a>

The ones with a high SEER rating are _unbelievably_ quiet. Less noise
that a refrigerator. We often completely forget that they are on. Maybe
45 dB with the fan set to maximum.

Typically, we set the fan speed to "automatic" so the fan speed varies
with the demand on the system. The system slowly ramps up and down to
meet the demand. All fans and the compressor are controlled by VFD's so
nothing cycles on and off. You set the temperature on the remote and the
system heats or cools to maintain that temperature in that room. The
units each have there own remote and you can set the temperature of each
room independently. (You can't set one room to heat and another to cool
if the inside units share an outside unit.)

On the particular model we have, you can chose to set the temperature
sensor on the remote, or on the wall unit, to control the wall unit.
Thus, if you are working at your desk that is some distance from the
wall unit, you set the remote to sense the temperature, and place the
remote near you.

The high SEER demands that the temperature difference between the room
and the finned coil be as low as practical. There is no reason to have
120 F air coming out of the inside unit, unless you have set the desired
room temperature that high. (I think the maximum room temperature set
point is maybe 90 F.) The air coming out of the unit is maybe 5 or 10
degrees different than the desired room temperature.

Folks that have these modern units absolutely love them. We bought one
at first for the master bedroom and the office. After a year, we bought
one for the other side of the house, and then bought one for the garage.

Bill D.




On 11/29/2017 10:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>
>> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
>> low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
>> a people.
> I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>
> I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
> does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>
> I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
> not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
> at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
> that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.
>
> That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
> Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
> the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
> above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
> temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
> temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.
>
> Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
> feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
> to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Jim,You perfectly describing the situation where the design of the heating system is inadequate for the building, which typically happens when it was not designed but someone just installed something and hoped for the best.My mom had her house converted to floor heating, which included insulation under the floor. I do not know a house more comfortable than hers, while she has significantly reduced her heating costs. The heat capacity and insulation is such that the house loses only a few degrees overnight when her heater is off. Actually the thermostat is just reduced a few degs but the heater does not come on all night even with freezing temps outside. Our house loses several tens of deg in a few hours...


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: jim--- via EV <[hidden email]> Date: 11/30/17  7:19 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [EVDL]  Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Cor van de Water said (in part):
> I have always been amazed by how most of USA has forced air blowing
> around through their house, which I find
> rather uncomfortable. I am from Europe, where you have radiators under
> windows that are warmed with
> warm water and air in the room naturally circulates at a very low speed
> (natural convection) throughout the room.
 
 
You're entitled to your opinion, but I HATED radiators which were the norm in schools when I was a kid.  You always ended up with the kids on one side of the room frying while the kids on the other side of the room wearing heavy jackets to keep warm.  Same thing with the floor furnace that was in my grandparent's house.  In cold weather we'd all huddle within 10 feet of the furnace while the rest of the house was frigid.

 
 73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
 
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In your case, Cor, I think insulation is the key. If heat loss is
minimal, the gradients inside will be minimal. Insulation would also
make a big difference in an EV. But not so easy, perhaps.
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Nov-17 10:30:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
unit)

>Jim,You perfectly describing the situation where the design of the
>heating system is inadequate for the building, which typically happens
>when it was not designed but someone just installed something and hoped
>for the best.My mom had her house converted to floor heating, which
>included insulation under the floor. I do not know a house more
>comfortable than hers, while she has significantly reduced her heating
>costs. The heat capacity and insulation is such that the house loses
>only a few degrees overnight when her heater is off. Actually the
>thermostat is just reduced a few degs but the heater does not come on
>all night even with freezing temps outside. Our house loses several
>tens of deg in a few hours...
>
>
>Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>-------- Original message --------From: jim--- via EV
><[hidden email]> Date: 11/30/17  7:19 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: Electric
>Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Subject:
>Re: [EVDL]  Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)
>
>Cor van de Water said (in part):
>>I have always been amazed by how most of USA has forced air blowing
>>around through their house, which I find
>>rather uncomfortable. I am from Europe, where you have radiators under
>>windows that are warmed with
>>warm water and air in the room naturally circulates at a very low
>>speed
>>(natural convection) throughout the room.
>
>
>You're entitled to your opinion, but I HATED radiators which were the
>norm in schools when I was a kid.  You always ended up with the kids on
>one side of the room frying while the kids on the other side of the
>room wearing heavy jackets to keep warm.  Same thing with the floor
>furnace that was in my grandparent's house.  In cold weather we'd all
>huddle within 10 feet of the furnace while the rest of the house was
>frigid.
>
>
>73
>-----
>Jim Walls - K6CCC
>[hidden email]
>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In a house I have in Hermosillo Mexico, a desert area with extreme hot
weather and dry winters, tipically from 40-45C (113F) in the sumer and
nearly 0C (32F) freezing temps, but always below 50% humidity, makes it
mandatory to have an air conditioning systems. My experience about 2yrs
ago: we used to have multi-split AC units (only for cooling) during the
summer and small 1.5Kw ceramic heaters for heating at each of two bedroom
in the winter time.

Last year we replaced the splits AC units for a new ones with heating
capability (heat pump ones) just like the one Bill Dube mentioned. It is a
beauty to see those unit work!  Are very quiet, and realy efficient. We
noticed a significant winter electric bill drop due to less energy
consumption on heating. No gas/furnace is use in MX cause elecricity is
cheaper than gas.

Before installing the equipment, I didn't wanted to have in the roof
without looking inside the units and considering I could have void the
warranty, I decided to open one and see how the thing worked; The
compressor was a 3 phase AC motor technology driven by a 240Vac smart
controller, taking the AC from the utility, making HV DC and then
modulating the right amplitude and AC frequency into the motor for maximum
efficiency. So does the same thing for the outside/inside fans. When I saw
that, I mapped the controller power electronics and came with the idea
that; If I was able to directly feed HV DC power right at the capacitors
bank before converting the DC energy into variable AC, I could technically;
make it work with a HV DC battery or solar array system or at least a
hybrid system during day/night.

That became a personal project to start building but I had to stop it since
I moved to another place. But then I was able to find other systems that
actually are sold just like that: Hybrids heat pumps:
http://www.hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/

..which tecnically is an all 3 phase driven unit with a step-up DC-DC power
supply (from 20-40V to 300V DC). Awsome!

I also do have an 'evacuated tubes' solar water heather with a 30G thermo
tank, and it works wonderfull for that house. That thing makes the water
boil every single day in a sunny summer day that I have to partially cover
it (no other water heater system is needed for the house needs)

My point of all this is: Maybe PV solar is not 100% efficient, but using
the generated electricity to produce heat on a heat pump system may be as
well as efficient to using direct solar water heating. Just like it was
mentioned before, a heat pump is technically a 'heat exchanger' depending
of the perspective you see it (for cooling or heating) and the energy used
is for the exchange process not to produce heat as resistive heaters. But
solar water heaters are 'Passive' components that may last 10X times that
any heat pump device with actual techology, consume zero energy (other than
the sun) and have zero moving parts.  Both can store energy during the
night and both methods have different applications at different needs.





On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> In your case, Cor, I think insulation is the key. If heat loss is minimal,
> the gradients inside will be minimal. Insulation would also make a big
> difference in an EV. But not so easy, perhaps.
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 29-Nov-17 10:30:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
> unit)
>
> Jim,You perfectly describing the situation where the design of the heating
>> system is inadequate for the building, which typically happens when it was
>> not designed but someone just installed something and hoped for the best.My
>> mom had her house converted to floor heating, which included insulation
>> under the floor. I do not know a house more comfortable than hers, while
>> she has significantly reduced her heating costs. The heat capacity and
>> insulation is such that the house loses only a few degrees overnight when
>> her heater is off. Actually the thermostat is just reduced a few degs but
>> the heater does not come on all night even with freezing temps outside. Our
>> house loses several tens of deg in a few hours...
>>
>>
>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>> -------- Original message --------From: jim--- via EV <[hidden email]>
>> Date: 11/30/17  7:19 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <
>> [hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [EVDL]  Heat pump vs
>> resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)
>>
>> Cor van de Water said (in part):
>>
>>> I have always been amazed by how most of USA has forced air blowing
>>> around through their house, which I find
>>> rather uncomfortable. I am from Europe, where you have radiators under
>>> windows that are warmed with
>>> warm water and air in the room naturally circulates at a very low speed
>>> (natural convection) throughout the room.
>>>
>>
>>
>> You're entitled to your opinion, but I HATED radiators which were the
>> norm in schools when I was a kid.  You always ended up with the kids on one
>> side of the room frying while the kids on the other side of the room
>> wearing heavy jackets to keep warm.  Same thing with the floor furnace that
>> was in my grandparent's house.  In cold weather we'd all huddle within 10
>> feet of the furnace while the rest of the house was frigid.
>>
>>
>> 73
>> -----
>> Jim Walls - K6CCC
>> [hidden email]
>>
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