Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yep, 90F is just fine for heating since it is continuous and low velocity.
Sure, people love to stand over a blast of 140F furnace air, for the few
minutes the furnace is on, because they get so cold with no warm air when
it cycles off.  I prefer the consistent warming of my heatpump and
cast-iron radiators.

PLUS it reduced our $3000/yr oil costs down to only $1000 electric which
was easily made up with another solar array to keep us 100% carbon and oil
free.  See http://aprs.org/geothermal.html

The water in the heatpump and old cast iron radiators rarely gets above
about 105F and yet heats the house in Maryland just fine*.  Of course,
being a hacker, I keep the hot water that low (higher efficiency for the
heatpump) by having some convenient fans by some of the radiators where we
can hide the fans.  This doubles convection and heat flow while keeping
the water temp lower.  The heatpump can go to 126F, but the efficiency is
-much- lower than when it is running at only 105F.

PLUS it is free "zone" heat in every room, simply by which fans are on.

I even wired an outlet on the floor near every radiator where we can hide
a fan, so that the fans only come on while the compressor is running.

Our church went from $4000/yr for Propane down to $1100 added electric
with an air-source heatpump.  And again, we are reducing that to zero with
another solar array.

* When temps get below about 20F, then the radiator water temp does get to
about 115F and the house can barely maintain 65F.  At lower temps, I
finally turn on the AUX heat.

The three HVAC companies all wanted to design an 8 TON heatpump and all
were leery that the water temp would not be high enough for COMFORT
because "radiators are designed for 140F".  I argued, that the house was
built with no insulation and with blown in insulation a few decades ago,
that the radiators are now oversized, AND that if I needed more heat, I'd
do the fan thing.

Two of the three companies refused to do the job because they clearly had
rarely done a heatpump-to-hot water system and only were following
"typical" guidelines without any actual "engineering" to match my needs.
The winning contractor, agreed to do it MY way and his was the lowest
price too.  He got $28k, the others wanted $38k and $48k.  Half of that
was the HEATPUMP cost.  The other half was for the Geothermal wells.  A
lot, but reducing my family's $6000/yr energy costs down to only about
$300/yr very qickly has made it up.

If we had gone for air-source instead of ground-source, the cost would
have been half but not quite as efficient.  Besides, the wife wanted a new
driveway, and since that is where the wells had to go, then she got a new
driveway (costing more than the entire HVAC system in the first place) yet
that was all part of the job which also qualified for the 30% energy tax
credits.


Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
unit)

Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with a
thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the
maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of about
68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the
current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return air.
The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not help
the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of EVDL Administrator via
EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
unit)

On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.
> This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to
> a lot a people.

I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.

I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
does the air from the vents feel in the winter?

I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace
brand) at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me,
meaning that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite
believeable.

That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most
of the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be
well above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.

Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect
it to have auxiliary resistive heat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Robert, your method of putting fans near a radiator is something I had
wanted to try. Really getting OT, here, so if people prefer, reply
privately.

A couple years ago I had to replace my gas furnace. I looked into
getting a heat pump system but it was not possible with the various
constraints and payback period so I bought a new gas furnace :(

Anyway, one of the options I studied was to put in radiators instead of
forced air. I would have run pex through the ducts to each register. One
of the advantages of this kind of unit would have been space - no
blowers, and I could have reclaimed return air duct space.

I didn't want surface mount radiators because of the space they take. It
might have been possible, but not easy. Instead I wanted to find some
recessed radiators with a small fan to waft the air over the fins and
into the room - gently, not with a breeze. Couldn't find any such
product. Also, the fans would have to be very high quality in order to
last and operate extremely quietly.

Has anyone considered this?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 30-Nov-17 4:54:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

>Yep, 90F is just fine for heating since it is continuous and low
>velocity.
>Sure, people love to stand over a blast of 140F furnace air, for the
>few
>minutes the furnace is on, because they get so cold with no warm air
>when
>it cycles off.  I prefer the consistent warming of my heatpump and
>cast-iron radiators.
>
>PLUS it reduced our $3000/yr oil costs down to only $1000 electric
>which
>was easily made up with another solar array to keep us 100% carbon and
>oil
>free.  See http://aprs.org/geothermal.html
>
>The water in the heatpump and old cast iron radiators rarely gets above
>about 105F and yet heats the house in Maryland just fine*.  Of course,
>being a hacker, I keep the hot water that low (higher efficiency for
>the
>heatpump) by having some convenient fans by some of the radiators where
>we
>can hide the fans.  This doubles convection and heat flow while keeping
>the water temp lower.  The heatpump can go to 126F, but the efficiency
>is
>-much- lower than when it is running at only 105F.
>
>PLUS it is free "zone" heat in every room, simply by which fans are on.
>
>I even wired an outlet on the floor near every radiator where we can
>hide
>a fan, so that the fans only come on while the compressor is running.
>
>Our church went from $4000/yr for Propane down to $1100 added electric
>with an air-source heatpump.  And again, we are reducing that to zero
>with
>another solar array.
>
>* When temps get below about 20F, then the radiator water temp does get
>to
>about 115F and the house can barely maintain 65F.  At lower temps, I
>finally turn on the AUX heat.
>
>The three HVAC companies all wanted to design an 8 TON heatpump and all
>were leery that the water temp would not be high enough for COMFORT
>because "radiators are designed for 140F".  I argued, that the house
>was
>built with no insulation and with blown in insulation a few decades
>ago,
>that the radiators are now oversized, AND that if I needed more heat,
>I'd
>do the fan thing.
>
>Two of the three companies refused to do the job because they clearly
>had
>rarely done a heatpump-to-hot water system and only were following
>"typical" guidelines without any actual "engineering" to match my
>needs.
>The winning contractor, agreed to do it MY way and his was the lowest
>price too.  He got $28k, the others wanted $38k and $48k.  Half of that
>was the HEATPUMP cost.  The other half was for the Geothermal wells.  A
>lot, but reducing my family's $6000/yr energy costs down to only about
>$300/yr very qickly has made it up.
>
>If we had gone for air-source instead of ground-source, the cost would
>have been half but not quite as efficient.  Besides, the wife wanted a
>new
>driveway, and since that is where the wells had to go, then she got a
>new
>driveway (costing more than the entire HVAC system in the first place)
>yet
>that was all part of the job which also qualified for the 30% energy
>tax
>credits.
>
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:22 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: ROBERT
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>unit)
>
>Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with
>a
>thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the
>maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of
>about
>68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the
>current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return
>air.
>The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not
>help
>the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of EVDL Administrator
>via
>EV <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: EVDL Administrator
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>unit)
>
>On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>
>>A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.
>>This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to
>>a lot a people.
>
>I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>
>I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how
>warm
>does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>
>I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  
>It's
>not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace
>brand) at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me,
>meaning that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite
>believeable.
>
>That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
>Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode,
>most
>of the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to
>be
>well above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its
>outlet
>temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
>temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.
>
>Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air
>that
>feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd
>expect
>it to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
>Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>[http://www.evdl.org/images/evdl.jpg]<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>
>EVDL Subscription Information and Help<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>www.evdl.org About the EVDL: The Electric Vehicle Discussion List,
>founded
>in 1991 by EV enthusiast Clyde Visser, is an active and vital source of
>information and help for people ...
>
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
>To
>send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
>http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>[http://www.evdl.org/images/evdl.jpg]<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>
>EVDL Subscription Information and Help<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>www.evdl.org About the EVDL: The Electric Vehicle Discussion List,
>founded
>in 1991 by EV enthusiast Clyde Visser, is an active and vital source of
>information and help for people ...
>
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>[http://www.evdl.org/images/evdl.jpg]<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#
>usub>
>
>EVDL Subscription Information and
>Help<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>
>www.evdl.org
>About the EVDL: The Electric Vehicle Discussion List, founded in 1991
>by
>EV enthusiast Clyde Visser, is an active and vital source of
>information
>and help for people ...
>
>
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org
>...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org>
>lists.evdl.org
>The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the
>current
>state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We
>define an EV as a ...
>
>
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>[https://s1.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/130909/y_200_a.png]<http://groups.yahoo
>.com/group/NEDRA>
>
>Yahoo! Groups<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>
>groups.yahoo.com
>/
>
>
>
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>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
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>

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peri,
What you describe is essentially the indoor unit of a split heatpump,
you just supply the heat from a different source.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
via EV
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

Robert, your method of putting fans near a radiator is something I had
wanted to try. Really getting OT, here, so if people prefer, reply
privately.

A couple years ago I had to replace my gas furnace. I looked into
getting a heat pump system but it was not possible with the various
constraints and payback period so I bought a new gas furnace :(

Anyway, one of the options I studied was to put in radiators instead of
forced air. I would have run pex through the ducts to each register. One
of the advantages of this kind of unit would have been space - no
blowers, and I could have reclaimed return air duct space.

I didn't want surface mount radiators because of the space they take. It
might have been possible, but not easy. Instead I wanted to find some
recessed radiators with a small fan to waft the air over the fins and
into the room - gently, not with a breeze. Couldn't find any such
product. Also, the fans would have to be very high quality in order to
last and operate extremely quietly.

Has anyone considered this?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 30-Nov-17 4:54:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

>Yep, 90F is just fine for heating since it is continuous and low
>velocity.
>Sure, people love to stand over a blast of 140F furnace air, for the
>few minutes the furnace is on, because they get so cold with no warm
>air when it cycles off.  I prefer the consistent warming of my heatpump

>and cast-iron radiators.
>
>PLUS it reduced our $3000/yr oil costs down to only $1000 electric
>which was easily made up with another solar array to keep us 100%
>carbon and oil free.  See http://aprs.org/geothermal.html
>
>The water in the heatpump and old cast iron radiators rarely gets above

>about 105F and yet heats the house in Maryland just fine*.  Of course,
>being a hacker, I keep the hot water that low (higher efficiency for
>the
>heatpump) by having some convenient fans by some of the radiators where

>we can hide the fans.  This doubles convection and heat flow while
>keeping the water temp lower.  The heatpump can go to 126F, but the
>efficiency is
>-much- lower than when it is running at only 105F.
>
>PLUS it is free "zone" heat in every room, simply by which fans are on.
>
>I even wired an outlet on the floor near every radiator where we can
>hide a fan, so that the fans only come on while the compressor is
>running.
>
>Our church went from $4000/yr for Propane down to $1100 added electric
>with an air-source heatpump.  And again, we are reducing that to zero
>with another solar array.
>
>* When temps get below about 20F, then the radiator water temp does get

>to about 115F and the house can barely maintain 65F.  At lower temps, I

>finally turn on the AUX heat.
>
>The three HVAC companies all wanted to design an 8 TON heatpump and all

>were leery that the water temp would not be high enough for COMFORT
>because "radiators are designed for 140F".  I argued, that the house
>was built with no insulation and with blown in insulation a few decades

>ago, that the radiators are now oversized, AND that if I needed more
>heat, I'd do the fan thing.
>
>Two of the three companies refused to do the job because they clearly
>had rarely done a heatpump-to-hot water system and only were following
>"typical" guidelines without any actual "engineering" to match my
>needs.
>The winning contractor, agreed to do it MY way and his was the lowest
>price too.  He got $28k, the others wanted $38k and $48k.  Half of that

>was the HEATPUMP cost.  The other half was for the Geothermal wells.  A

>lot, but reducing my family's $6000/yr energy costs down to only about
>$300/yr very qickly has made it up.
>
>If we had gone for air-source instead of ground-source, the cost would
>have been half but not quite as efficient.  Besides, the wife wanted a
>new driveway, and since that is where the wells had to go, then she got

>a new driveway (costing more than the entire HVAC system in the first
>place) yet that was all part of the job which also qualified for the
>30% energy tax credits.
>
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:22 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: ROBERT
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>unit)
>
>Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with

>a thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the
>maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of
>about
>68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the
>current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return
>air.
>The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not
>help the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of EVDL Administrator
>via EV <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: EVDL Administrator
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>unit)
>
>On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>
>>A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.
>>This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to
>>a lot a people.
>
>I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>
>I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how
>warm does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>
>I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  
>It's
>not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace
>brand) at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me,

>meaning that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite

>believeable.
>
>That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
>Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode,
>most of the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has

>to be well above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls,
>its outlet temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably
>above body temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg

>C.
>
>Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air
>that feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd
>expect it to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
>Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>[http://www.evdl.org/images/evdl.jpg]<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>
>EVDL Subscription Information and Help<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
>www.evdl.org About the EVDL: The Electric Vehicle Discussion List,
>founded in 1991 by EV enthusiast Clyde Visser, is an active and vital
>source of information and help for people ...
>
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
>To
>send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage

>http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>[http://www.evdl.org/images/evdl.jpg]<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

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Look up fan assisted radiators, or fan convectors.

On 30 November 2017 at 15:35, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Robert, your method of putting fans near a radiator is something I had
> wanted to try. Really getting OT, here, so if people prefer, reply
> privately.
>
> A couple years ago I had to replace my gas furnace. I looked into getting a
> heat pump system but it was not possible with the various constraints and
> payback period so I bought a new gas furnace :(
>
> Anyway, one of the options I studied was to put in radiators instead of
> forced air. I would have run pex through the ducts to each register. One of
> the advantages of this kind of unit would have been space - no blowers, and
> I could have reclaimed return air duct space.
>
> I didn't want surface mount radiators because of the space they take. It
> might have been possible, but not easy. Instead I wanted to find some
> recessed radiators with a small fan to waft the air over the fins and into
> the room - gently, not with a breeze. Couldn't find any such product. Also,
> the fans would have to be very high quality in order to last and operate
> extremely quietly.
>
> Has anyone considered this?
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 30-Nov-17 4:54:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)
>
>> Yep, 90F is just fine for heating since it is continuous and low velocity.
>> Sure, people love to stand over a blast of 140F furnace air, for the few
>> minutes the furnace is on, because they get so cold with no warm air when
>> it cycles off.  I prefer the consistent warming of my heatpump and
>> cast-iron radiators.
>>
>> PLUS it reduced our $3000/yr oil costs down to only $1000 electric which
>> was easily made up with another solar array to keep us 100% carbon and oil
>> free.  See http://aprs.org/geothermal.html
>>
>> The water in the heatpump and old cast iron radiators rarely gets above
>> about 105F and yet heats the house in Maryland just fine*.  Of course,
>> being a hacker, I keep the hot water that low (higher efficiency for the
>> heatpump) by having some convenient fans by some of the radiators where we
>> can hide the fans.  This doubles convection and heat flow while keeping
>> the water temp lower.  The heatpump can go to 126F, but the efficiency is
>> -much- lower than when it is running at only 105F.
>>
>> PLUS it is free "zone" heat in every room, simply by which fans are on.
>>
>> I even wired an outlet on the floor near every radiator where we can hide
>> a fan, so that the fans only come on while the compressor is running.
>>
>> Our church went from $4000/yr for Propane down to $1100 added electric
>> with an air-source heatpump.  And again, we are reducing that to zero with
>> another solar array.
>>
>> * When temps get below about 20F, then the radiator water temp does get to
>> about 115F and the house can barely maintain 65F.  At lower temps, I
>> finally turn on the AUX heat.
>>
>> The three HVAC companies all wanted to design an 8 TON heatpump and all
>> were leery that the water temp would not be high enough for COMFORT
>> because "radiators are designed for 140F".  I argued, that the house was
>> built with no insulation and with blown in insulation a few decades ago,
>> that the radiators are now oversized, AND that if I needed more heat, I'd
>> do the fan thing.
>>
>> Two of the three companies refused to do the job because they clearly had
>> rarely done a heatpump-to-hot water system and only were following
>> "typical" guidelines without any actual "engineering" to match my needs.
>> The winning contractor, agreed to do it MY way and his was the lowest
>> price too.  He got $28k, the others wanted $38k and $48k.  Half of that
>> was the HEATPUMP cost.  The other half was for the Geothermal wells.  A
>> lot, but reducing my family's $6000/yr energy costs down to only about
>> $300/yr very qickly has made it up.
>>
>> If we had gone for air-source instead of ground-source, the cost would
>> have been half but not quite as efficient.  Besides, the wife wanted a new
>> driveway, and since that is where the wells had to go, then she got a new
>> driveway (costing more than the entire HVAC system in the first place) yet
>> that was all part of the job which also qualified for the 30% energy tax
>> credits.
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:22 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: ROBERT
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>> unit)
>>
>> Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with a
>> thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the
>> maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of about
>> 68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the
>> current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return air.
>> The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not help
>> the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of EVDL Administrator via
>> EV <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: EVDL Administrator
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>> unit)
>>
>> On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>>
>>> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.
>>> This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to
>>> a lot a people.
>>
>>
>> I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>>
>> I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
>> does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>>
>> I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
>> not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace
>> brand) at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me,
>> meaning that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite
>> believeable.
>>
>> That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
>> Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most
>> of the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be
>> well above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
>> temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
>> temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.
>>
>> Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
>> feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect
>> it to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
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>> information and help for people ...
>>
>>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I hate to rain on folks' parades (even though it's raining today where I
am), but this thread has almost nothing to do with EVs now.  I tried to
bring it back on topic, but to no avail.  Maybe you could take it to private
email now?

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Towing with a Bolt

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi All,
   My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord, nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?

My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and added weight requiring more amps.
My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?

Appreciatively,

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

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It's bad to tow with a vehicle that can't handle the weight.  And because
of the battery weight, the car is already quite heavy.

In addition to excess wear on the tires, you may be depressing your shock
absorbers close to their limit, giving you a bumpy ride at best and busted
shocks at worst.

There's no issue with volts or amps; the primary thing that will happen as
far as electricity is concerned is that the car won't go as far on a full
charge.

-- Jorg

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>    My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord,
> nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?
>
> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and
> added weight requiring more amps.
> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as
> worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat
> fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I would worry about the trailer exceeding the limit of the brakes more than anything. If you are talking about a little 4x3 Harbor freight utility trailer for flat ground around town use thats one thing but anything bigger might be unsafe especially in less than optimal conditions

    On Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:42 PM, Jorg Brown via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

 It's bad to tow with a vehicle that can't handle the weight.  And because
of the battery weight, the car is already quite heavy.

In addition to excess wear on the tires, you may be depressing your shock
absorbers close to their limit, giving you a bumpy ride at best and busted
shocks at worst.

There's no issue with volts or amps; the primary thing that will happen as
far as electricity is concerned is that the car won't go as far on a full
charge.

-- Jorg

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>    My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord,
> nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?
>
> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and
> added weight requiring more amps.
> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as
> worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat
> fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
An ICE vehicle uses more fuel when towing assuming all the other safety
concerns are covered. Can be 50% more depending on circumstances.
This is a result of the motor having to work harder to tow the load. It can
also result in ICE overheating due to the sustained load.

I would think this is the issue for the EV's. Additional load will be
equivalent to running at hi amps all the time and the batteries and
infrastructure cannot sustain it without an increased risk.

Good luck.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>    My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord,
> nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?
>
> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and
> added weight requiring more amps.
> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as
> worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat
> fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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>
>


--
Regards
*Glenn Van Vlemen*
*Principal*
Exoro Pty Ltd
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Heat-pump-vs-resistive-Heater-with-radiators-tp4688727p4688739.html
Towing with a Bolt
]

The question posted asks about towing with an EV in general. I feel others
have answered that.

But the subject/topic of the post specifically asks towing with a Bolt EV.

I would first see what others have done, by checking with what the Bolt
drivers have posted
https://www.google.com/search?q=chevy+bolt+towing

And then, because the Bolt's underpinnings are based on the Chevy Sonic ice,
you could also look to what the Sonic drivers have posted
https://www.google.com/search?q=chevy+sonic+towing

Which btw also gives:

https://www.etrailer.com/vm/Chevrolet/Sonic/hitch
Chevrolet Sonic Trailer Hitch
For your 2015 Chevy Sonic the Draw Tite Hitch part # 24878 has been
confirmed as a fit and will work well for light towing as long as you stay
under the hitch's towing capacity of 200 lbs tongue weight and 2,000 lbs
total trailer weight and the towing capacities for the vehicle listed in the
owners manual.


That last bit is what you should have already read (the Bolt manual - rtfm)
to know the Bolt EV's design limitations.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: Towing with a Bolt

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It usually comes down to three things-Warranty, design load and pilot expectations.If the manufacturer does not want to take responsibility for the unheard things that some people manage to do with a hitch, they will simply say that a hitch voids warranty.The design load of the frame will limit how much extra load the car can take before things start to deform and since an EV is designed to be light, there may not be too much margin. Note that it is not about the static load on the hitch ball, which is supposed to be pretty low for a well loaded trailer, but the dynamic loads, especially for a non braking trailer can be pretty high and tear on the frame.Then there is the issue of expectation. Drivers might expect to be driving their usual 70 to 80 mph and either put themselves in danger by exceeding the capabilities of the car or be dismayed by the limitations, not leading to a positive experience and if the towing feature is not a selling item then it won't be valued as such.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]> Date: 12/1/17  2:59 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Cc: Bob Bath <[hidden email]> Subject: [EVDL] Towing with a Bolt
Hi All,
   My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord, nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?

My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and added weight requiring more amps.
My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?

Appreciatively,

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Easy answer is..... some vehicles are designed to be able to tow and some are not. It doesn’t matter what they use to propel the vehicle a lot of trains are electric and they tow a lot of weight.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>   My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord, nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?
>
> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and added weight requiring more amps.
> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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>

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Re: Towing with a Bolt

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I tow my 15' old 40 HP boat with my prius.
Also tow my Communications trailer with the prius.
These are area tows... I'd be stupid to try to go 100 miles at 70 MPH doing
this.
But stupid is out there.... it’s a lose-lose proposition to try to make one
rule-fits-all
bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 1:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Towing with a Bolt

It usually comes down to three things-Warranty, design load and pilot
expectations.If the manufacturer does not want to take responsibility for
the unheard things that some people manage to do with a hitch, they will
simply say that a hitch voids warranty.The design load of the frame will
limit how much extra load the car can take before things start to deform and
since an EV is designed to be light, there may not be too much margin. Note
that it is not about the static load on the hitch ball, which is supposed to
be pretty low for a well loaded trailer, but the dynamic loads, especially
for a non braking trailer can be pretty high and tear on the frame.Then
there is the issue of expectation. Drivers might expect to be driving their
usual 70 to 80 mph and either put themselves in danger by exceeding the
capabilities of the car or be dismayed by the limitations, not leading to a
positive experience and if the towing feature is not a selling item then it
won't be valued as such.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/1/17  2:59 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[hidden email]> Cc: Bob Bath <[hidden email]> Subject: [EVDL]
Towing with a Bolt Hi All,
   My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord, nor
my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?

My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and added
weight requiring more amps.
My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as worse
voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?

Appreciatively,

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat
fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: Towing with a Bolt

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
A more complex answer is manufacturers promote or don't promote towing abilities as part of market segmentation. In some parts of the world, a vehicle model is tow rated but in other parts the same vehicle isn't rated. Depending on local factors this may either encourage or even force people to buy tow rated vehicles.

Tesla built the Model X on the same platform as the Model S but only offers factory towing option (and towing related software) for X. The Model 3 is su

Toyota finally added a tow rating to Prius, although people have been towing light trailers and teardrop campers (<1500 lbs) with them for years (see Prius Trailers group). In terms of weight ratios, a 1500 lb trailer compares favorably to a 3300 lb Leaf, 4700 lb Model S, 5200 lb Model X, or 3000 lb Prius.

An experienced driver with a balanced trailer and well secured load, who keeps speeds and following distances that are in proportion to what is being hauled will be fine. These drivers know they need to leave extra space to start and stop. These drivers also account for weather and road and terrain conditions. Expectations and planning makes a difference. Much less capable vehicles towed much bigger loads in decades gone past.

Inexperienced drivers probably should not be towing. Otherwise experienced drivers who haven't towed before should start out with lighter loads and conditions to build experience with the changes in driving dynamics that towing causes.



On December 1, 2017 7:56:18 AM CST, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Easy answer is..... some vehicles are designed to be able to tow and
>some are not. It doesn’t matter what they use to propel the vehicle a
>lot of trains are electric and they tow a lot of weight.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Bob Bath via EV <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>   My bro asked me a question I never worried about with
>Civicwithacord, nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an
>EV?/Warranty voiding?
>>
>> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and
>added weight requiring more amps.
>> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well
>as worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything
>else?
>>
>> Appreciatively,
>>
>> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or
>fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20171130/e1bbcc3f/attachment.html>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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