Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.  The
EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
?

% First look at:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Faulty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...


 then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
body.

The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and decide. Was
this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-really-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
safe to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
convey this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.

Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
a small fire in his house this last winter
due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point
of setting the cord on fire.

I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
was purely a resistive heating induced failure.

Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
plug contacts,
also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
crisp ?

% First look at:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
smoke in the ...


 then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
their body.

The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Interesting.  Obviously the plastic body of the smart was quite flammable and maybe Mercedes should address that problem.  My normal comeback on these incidents is - have you noticed those rectangular black spots along the sides of the highways in summer?

The stated reason in the article was an electrical fault but it could have been arson as well.  This occurred yesterday and the article was published about 8 hours after the fire was reported put out.  It seems unlikely that it’s actually been investigated yet and that was just the initial opinion of either the fire department on sight or maybe even the reporter.

These incidents should be investigated the failure mode determined and remediation recommended for future installations.  Maybe the EVSE’s should have a thermal sensor so that connection blocks that are getting too hot cause a shutdown and the charging circuits in the car should have the same.  I know the battery modules do (or should) but the main charger circuits could have the same.  We are now required to install spark gap circuit breakers in houses on the circuits that are in bedrooms, smoke detectors, etc.  it would be small leap to require similar in the vehicle and/or the EVSE circuit.

It would be really nice to know as well if the fault was in the car or the EVSE.

If cars were airplanes all this would be second nature.  We demand to know why each and every plane crashes but just assume that unless a particular model car starts to show in the statistics we just ignore problems and assume human error or a one off manufacturing defect and go ‘oh well…"

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
[hidden email]




> On Jul 10, 2017, at 16:43, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
> safe to draw from the electrical connection.
> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
> the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
> convey this to the EV.
> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
> will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
>
> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
> there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
> contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
> a small fire in his house this last winter
> due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
> internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point
> of setting the cord on fire.
>
> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
> the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
> before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
> for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
> drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
> and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
> was purely a resistive heating induced failure.
>
> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
> plug contacts,
> also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
> fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
> or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
> fails and burns...
> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
> via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
>
> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
> David Kerzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
> crisp ?
>
> % First look at:
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
> lty-
> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
> Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
> electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
> charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
> smoke in the ...
>
>
> then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
> their body.
>
> The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
> frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
> decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
>
>
>
>
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
> lly-
> a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Notice the burnt EVSE mounted on the wall.
Of course the caption improperly identifies this as the lithium battery it is obvious it is the wall mounted EVSE.

      From: Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 6:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?
   
Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
safe to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
convey this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.

Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded
contact in the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
a small fire in his house this last winter
due to the wire at the back of the wall plug starting to break
internally and the remaining strands overheated to the point
of setting the cord on fire.

I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked
before being attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry
for years (water was heated electrically so the washer
drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke
and the wire inside the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
was purely a resistive heating induced failure.

Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
plug contacts,
also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger) can
fail, for example an improperly tightened wire
or a loss of water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently
fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
crisp ?

% First look at:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
smoke in the ...


 then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
their body.

The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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_______________________________________________
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32 amps the 30
amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour.  Can the car
in question charge at 32 Amps?  
I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only accept the maximum
amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
with the EVSE.
I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
vehicle on fire.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.

Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
to the point of setting the cord on fire.

I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
purely a resistive heating induced failure.

Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
?

% First look at:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...


 then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
body.

The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and decide. Was
this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models.

So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it failed to limit the current might overheat and …

Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the fire jump to the car and cause all this damage.  More likely there was a short in the car or someone torched it.

My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added so it can’t burn.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris
[hidden email]




> On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
> signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32 amps the 30
> amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour.  Can the car
> in question charge at 32 Amps?  
> I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
> in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only accept the maximum
> amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
> with the EVSE.
> I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
> listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
> vehicle on fire.
> David Kerzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
>
> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
> to draw from the electrical connection.
> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
> car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
> this to the EV.
> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
> tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
>
> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
> are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
> charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
> small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
> wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
> to the point of setting the cord on fire.
>
> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
> wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
> after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
> electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
> during a hot wash
> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
> the outlet burned clean through.
> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
> purely a resistive heating induced failure.
>
> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
> contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
> can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
> cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
> acrisp ?
>
> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
> David Kerzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
> ?
>
> % First look at:
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
> lty-
> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
> Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
> car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
> vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...
>
>
> then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
> body.
>
> The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
> was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and decide. Was
> this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
>
>
>
>
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
> lly-
> a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
the
relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing overheating
of
the relay or even starting a fire.
I used an outdoor outlet (which was under a massive 8 ft overhang of
roof on a patio
and inside a weather-protecting cover, so it was never seeing rain)
and the outlet was a 20A GFCI protected dual outlet, accepting both
NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 plugs.
I charged there for months until one day the outlet burned its GFCI
contacts open
(the GFCI never triggered, it simply overheated and failed) so I
replaced it with
another (brand new) 20A GFCI outlet and never had any problems.
I disected the old outlet and could not find *why* it had failed, so
my conclusion was that it was likely the contact resistance of the GFCI
relay.
The new outlet I exercised the contacts regularly by first unplugging
and then
pushing the TEST button to turn the outlet off and pushing  the RESET
button
before I plugged in again.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Kerzel [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:03 PM
To: Cor van de Water; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the
PILOT signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32
amps the 30 amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an
hour.  Can the car in question charge at 32 Amps?  
I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or
overloaded in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only
accept the maximum amount of power the on board charger is rated for and
that has nothing to do with the EVSE.
I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
vehicle on fire.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is
safe to draw from the electrical connection.
For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling
the car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to
convey this to the EV.
If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it
will tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.

Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself)
there are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in
the charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had
a small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back
of the wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands
overheated to the point of setting the cord on fire.

I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where
the wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being
attached, so after successfully washing loads of laundry for years
(water was heated electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps
continuously for an hour or so during a hot wash
cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire
inside the outlet burned clean through.
There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this
was purely a resistive heating induced failure.

Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging
plug contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery
charger) can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of
water cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and
burns...
So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel
via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
David Kerzel

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a
crisp ?

% First look at:


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
lty-
wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An
electric car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while
charging. The vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by
smoke in the ...


 then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without
their body.

The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal
frame was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and
decide. Was this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
lly-
a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply."
  Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay?


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
22kw from 3 x 240 volt phases at 32 amps each. The EVSE signals amps not watts. The car draws 7kw single phase and 22kw three phase.

At least that's what my Australian Tesla does. Euro cars have Mennekes sockets with three live pins not j1772 or Tesla proprietary sockets.

John Lindsay

> On 12 Jul 2017, at 8:14 am, Lawrence Harris via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models.
>
> So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it failed to limit the current might overheat and …
>
> Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the fire jump to the car and cause all this damage.  More likely there was a short in the car or someone torched it.
>
> My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added so it can’t burn.
>
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
>> signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32 amps the 30
>> amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour.  Can the car
>> in question charge at 32 Amps?  
>> I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
>> in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only accept the maximum
>> amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
>> with the EVSE.
>> I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
>> listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
>> vehicle on fire.
>> David Kerzel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----    
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
>> via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
>> acrisp ?
>>
>> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
>> to draw from the electrical connection.
>> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
>> car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
>> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
>> this to the EV.
>> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
>> tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
>>
>> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
>> are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
>> charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
>> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
>> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
>> small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
>> wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
>> to the point of setting the cord on fire.
>>
>> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
>> wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
>> after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
>> electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
>> during a hot wash
>> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
>> the outlet burned clean through.
>> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
>> purely a resistive heating induced failure.
>>
>> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
>> contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
>> can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
>> cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
>> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
>> Cor.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
>> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
>> acrisp ?
>>
>> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
>> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
>> David Kerzel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
>> ?
>>
>> % First look at:
>>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
>> lty-
>> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
>> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
>> Electric car gutted by flames after it set fire while charging An electric
>> car was left completely burnt out after it set on fire while charging. The
>> vehicle was destroyed and a nearby building was damaged by smoke in the ...
>>
>>
>> then at the end I placed some image links of Smart EV frames without their
>> body.
>>
>> The EV's body was not metal and completely bunt away. Only the metal frame
>> was left, including the metal frame for the doors. Compare, and decide. Was
>> this EV really a Smart? Or was it something else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://evdl.org/evln/
>> For all EVLN EV-newswire posts
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Is-this-rea
>> lly-
>> a-Smart-Fortwo-ED-EV-that-burnt-to-a-crisp-tp4687297.html
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Robert,

full galvanic isolation requires a mechanical relay in the EVSE,

as the failure mode of a "solid state relay" (fancy words for
essentially a transistor) is to fail "ON" (shorted).

That is not an acceptable failure mode when the point of the EVSE is to
disconnect power in failure situations.

Cor.

 

From: ROBERT [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

 

Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting
the 240V supply."
  Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay?


 

________________________________

From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Cor van de Water via
EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

 

I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I ask again.  Is it a relay or a contactor?  And before you answer, remember that a relay is tested to a different set of requirements than a contactor.

The problem with a solid state relay is not the failure mode but the fact that a solid state device always has some level of leakage current.  In other words, a SSD cannot provide complete isolation from a source.  Have you every seen a UL listed (UL489) solid state branch circuit protection device?


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Robert,

full galvanic isolation requires a mechanical relay in the EVSE,

as the failure mode of a "solid state relay" (fancy words for
essentially a transistor) is to fail "ON" (shorted).

That is not an acceptable failure mode when the point of the EVSE is to
disconnect power in failure situations.

Cor.



From: ROBERT [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:09 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?



Cor van de Water wrote: " Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting
the 240V supply."
  Is this relay a mechanical relay or a contactor or solid state relay?




________________________________

From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Cor van de Water via
EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?



I looked at the pictures and wondered the same - if the yellow cord was
the connection
between car and EVSE then the only way the EVSE coud set the car on fire
would be burning bits to fall off and somehow reach the car, as most of
the cord appears undamaged.
However, it appears that the coiled yellow cord was enclosed in a
sleeve, the tube-like thingy
that is laying on the ground. So, it is possible that a fire in the EVSE
traveled over the *outside* of
the sleeve and set the last few feet of charging cord on fire, which
then lit the car up.
The weird thing is that the least affected spot on the whole vehicle is
directy under the
charging plug, as that tire appears complete while all other rims have
burned off their tires,
in the front therims are molten as well, so the temps must have been
around 1000 deg C inside the fire.
That is still possible, even if the car was lit up in the back via the
cord, it only takes a light breeze from the back
to cool the back side of an object and drive the flames in the forward
direction...

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
acrisp ?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Remember that an EVSE has a relay interrupting the 240V supply.
> As I related before, any wire that is damaged or improperly tightened
> can burn, even if not overloaded for the spec of the wire.
> If the EVSE is not frequently used, there is the risk of corrosion of
> the relay contacts, adding to the resistance and easily causing
> overheating of the relay or even starting a fire.

Even if this were the case, it would result in the EVSE itself perhaps
catching fire, or otherwise failing and interrupting AC power to the
car's on-board charger.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where the wall-mounted EVSE
visible in the pictures could burn with such intensity as to catch a
nearby vehicle on fire in this way.

I find it especially difficult to believe given that some of the photos
clearly show the charge cord still attached to the vehicle, and aside
for the few feet immediately at the car end of the cord, the cord itself
appears undamaged.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
A lot of people have shown an interest in discussing the origins of the fire
here, but I haven't seen any posts yet addressing Bruce's question -- was
this really a Smart?  

Bruce provided links that show a Smart chassis.  The burnt-out skeleton in
the photos resembles it.  However, there are also some differences.  Look at
the shape of the front crossmember (what in an ICEV might be the radiator
support) and the bumper support (?) below it, compared to the pictures of
the actual Smart frame.  I think I also see differences at the rear
quarters.  The rocker panels seem to be shaped differently, too.

Anybody else remember the Flybo and the other Chinese EVs that resembled
Smarts?  They showed up about 10 years ago.  Diamler tried to sue the
makers, but I don't know how successful they were at stopping them.  If they
were shut down, it might have been mainly because they were fairly junky
knockoffs.

http://evalbum.com/type/FLYB

I can't find any online pictures of the Flybo frame like the ones Bruce
found of the Smart (thanks, Bruce).  It does make you wonder, though.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There is the Zotye E200 too.
It’s a knock-off! China’s copycat cars at the 2015 Shanghai motor show by CAR Magazine
 
|  
|   |  
It’s a knock-off! China’s copycat cars at the 2015 Shanghai motor show by CAR Magazine
 Join us for a game of ‘guess which Western car influenced this’ in CAR's bumper gallery from the 2015 Shangh...  |  |

  |

 


      From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 8:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?
   
A lot of people have shown an interest in discussing the origins of the fire
here, but I haven't seen any posts yet addressing Bruce's question -- was
this really a Smart? 

Bruce provided links that show a Smart chassis.  The burnt-out skeleton in
the photos resembles it.  However, there are also some differences.  Look at
the shape of the front crossmember (what in an ICEV might be the radiator
support) and the bumper support (?) below it, compared to the pictures of
the actual Smart frame.  I think I also see differences at the rear
quarters.  The rocker panels seem to be shaped differently, too.

Anybody else remember the Flybo and the other Chinese EVs that resembled
Smarts?  They showed up about 10 years ago.  Diamler tried to sue the
makers, but I don't know how successful they were at stopping them.  If they
were shut down, it might have been mainly because they were fairly junky
knockoffs.

http://evalbum.com/type/FLYB

I can't find any online pictures of the Flybo frame like the ones Bruce
found of the Smart (thanks, Bruce).  It does make you wonder, though.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
EVDL Administrator wrote:

> A lot of people have shown an interest in discussing the origins of the
> fire here, but I haven't seen any posts yet addressing Bruce's question
> -- was this really a Smart?
>
> Bruce provided links that show a Smart chassis.  The burnt-out skeleton in
> the photos resembles it.  However, there are also some differences.

There are 3 (or 4?) generations of Smart ED, so no guarantee that the links Bruce provided show chassis that are for the same generation as the burnt vehicle (stated to be a 2017 Smart ED).

If you look up pictures of what an unburned 2017 ED looks like

e.g. <https://www.smartusa.com/compare-vehicles>

it is clear that the front end/grill has been redesigned to be more "Mini-esque", and it is not unreasonable that there might be some different (from prior generations) support structure behind the bodywork.

Wikipedia (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_electric_drive>) has some pictures of various generations of Smart ED, and also states:

"The third-generation Smart electric drive was unveiled at the September 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show.[5] Key differences with the second-generation model include a more powerful electric motor, which improves acceleration and top speed; a new lithium-ion battery pack that will allow to increase the range to 140 kilometres (87 mi) and an option for quick-charge will be available; and other features include an enlarged grille opening, stylish LED daytime running lights, wider door sills, some minor modifications to the rear, fully automatic air conditioning with pollen filter and pre-air conditioning."

Given that the third generation has different front end/grill styling, wider door sills, and "minor modifications to the rear", it seems important to compare the burned vehicle remains to pictures of only same generation Smarts.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
ROBERT via EV wrote:
> I ask again.  Is it a relay or a contactor?  And before you answer, remember
> that a relay is tested to a different set of requirements than a contactor.
>
> The problem with a solid state relay is not the failure mode but the fact
> that a solid state device always has some level of leakage current.  In other
> words, a SSD cannot provide complete isolation from a source.  Have you every
> seen a UL listed (UL489) solid state branch circuit protection device?

Contactors are basically larger, more powerful versions of relays. You're right;
they are often tested to different standards, because of the power level and
consequences of failure can be more drastic.

A 120vac EVSE could use a relay. I have two, and they both use small inexpensive
relays.

A 240vac EVSE is higher power, and almost certainly would use a contactor. I
have one EVSE, and it has a contactor.

No way would I trust a solid-state relay for a safety disconnect!
--
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
        -- Dalai Lama
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I agree with you 100% about your design approach with relays.  I took the same approach.  I see the same issues with out sourced and China designs.  In addition, US management has said to their engineering staff, if they can do it then you do it.  I fought this battle at numerous design reviews.  Therefore, I am not surprised that this Smart Fortwo? burn to a crisp.  As far as UL, UL is not what they used to be.  Things changed when the US changed to NRTLs.  In order to compete for business, the labs have gotten cozy with businesses.

________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:28 PM
To: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

ROBERT wrote:
> Lee, you are correct. I agree; however, I would never use a relay on an EVSE.
> But that just me. I have a motor control (with correct size heater) on my
> outside fountain pump (1/6 HP).

Hi ROBERT,

All I can say is that both Nissan and Toyota used relays in their 120vac EVSEs,
and both are UL listed. That means they satisfied UL that they are safe.

I worked for Robertshaw and Honeywell for well over a decade, designing controls
for large home appliances and furnaces. In all but the highest power ones, we
used relays.

But they weren't your run-of-the-mill cheap relays; they were ones with a long
list of safety approvals and testing. And, we often had backup systems in place
to detect a welded relay contact and stop operation some other way. For example,
TWO relays in series, with logic that tested each one individually before
closing both to energize the load.

One thing that saddens me is that large amount of such "intrinsically safe"
design has gone out the window as companies weaken the regulations and outsource
everything to countries where safety testing is weak or nonexistent.
Manufacturers now get controls from China that do things that would NEVER be
tolerated in a US product.

--
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
        -- Dalai Lama
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com>
The Sunrise EV2 Project<http://www.sunrise-ev.com/>
www.sunrise-ev.com
The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated electric vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high performance electric ...


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UK Smart Fortwo ED EV or clone/knock-off that burnt to a crisp

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


After looking at what Smart copies or clones were out there (see bottom [dated] searches & enjoy all the pics I found), I searched for what was being sold in the UK.

There are Chinese brands being sold in the UK: Noble, Zotye,& Wheego that make Smart knock-offs.

While the media may have taken the brand Smart as fact, we know that burnt frame just might not be a real Smart EV, but a Smart clone/knock-off. See the very last part below to know that because of a court judgement, those Chinese automakers are legally allowed to sell their Smart clones.


==============


https://www.google.com/search?q=Smart+fortwo+electric+Essex+uk
Smart fortwo Essex uk


www.noblecars.com/
Noble Cars  The Noble M600 is a car produced not in competition to the current super car ... The cabin features a traditional bespoke British hand built finish, with your choice ...


[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAilCgd6Y34&feature=youtu.be
Zotye 100 EV (cloud)
Electromobiile360 Nov 2, 2015
]


http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/chinese-copycat-cars-2017-shanghai-motor-24433

Zotye E200 – Smart Fortwo
http://www.autocarpro.in/IMG/248/54248/image-uploaded-from-ios-137.jpg

The Zotye E200 is an all-electric city car which holds a striking resemblance to the Smart Fortwo model. A Zotye spokesman said it has a 124-mile range when fully charged - a 25% increase on that offered by the Smart Fortwo Electric Drive - and has "performance like Smart".

He said the model, which is sold in China and also exported to the US, is typically bought by women and younger buyers. Costing around ¥100,000 (Rs 10.18 lakh), it is more expensive than its premium saloon sibling, the Z700. However, China offers both central and local government incentives for electric vehicles (EVs), which is likely to bring this price down. Evidently, the issues of EV pricing are a worldwide problem.



http://www.renugen.co.uk/wheego-whip-life-electric-vehicle/?setCurrencyId=2
Wheego Whip LiFe Electric Vehicle
https://www.facebook.com/wheego/


==============


http://driving.ca/lexus/auto-news/entertainment/top-10-chinese-rip-off-cars-vs-their-original-designs
Chinese Knockoff: Shuanghuan Auto Noble
Original Design: Smart ForTwo

[images  
http://wpmedia.driving.ca/2015/04/noble-nano-01.jpg?quality=70&strip=all&w=475
Knockoff  The Shuanghuan Auto Noble takes comes "inspiration" from the Smart fortwo.

http://wpmedia.driving.ca/2015/04/p1870003.jpg?quality=70&strip=all&w=1024
Original    Handout, Smart
]

If you’re not happy with the all-new, third-generation Smart ForTwo parent Mercedes-Benz is launching in Western markets this year, just head over to China, where last-generation ForTwo design rip-offs are plentiful. This example is the Shuanghuan Auto Noble. But the ForTwo clone is also sold as the Shuanghuan Bubble, Martin Motors Noble and Martin Motors Bubble. And unlike the original, two-passenger, rear-wheel-drive Smart, the Noble/Bubble offers seats for four and is based on a front-wheel-drive Suzuki Alto chassis ...
[© 2017 Postmedia Network]



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/history-chinese-copycat-car-picture-gallery
Shuanghuan Auto Noble – Smart Fortwo
Don’t let the name fool you; this car is neither a copy of the Noble M600, nor are its design intentions noble. Despite its appearance and similarity to the two-seat Smart Fortwo, the Noble has seating for four – although how comfortably those four can be seated is unknown.
https://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/shuanghuan_auto_noble.jpg?itok=lCYAJ_1Q
...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/87772/chinese-copycat-cars
Copied: Smart ForTwo  Smart ForTwo EV - front
http://cdn2.autoexpress.co.uk/sites/autoexpressuk/files/styles/article_main_image/public/2016/11/16c916_001.jpg?itok=PvRZdQfn



http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/features/chinese-copycat-cars-can-you-spot-the-western-inspiration-behind-these-designs-a7015966.html

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/05/06/01/shuanghuan_auto_noble.jpg
The copy: Shuanghuan Auto Noble

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/05/06/01/smart_0.jpg
The original: Smart Fortwo

Unlike the Smart Fortwo, to which this car bears an uncanny resemblance, the Auto Noble is said to seat four people. Although it doesn’t say how big they can be. Based on some of the Toyota iQ in technology terms, this is an all-electric car ...



https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-shanghai-auto-show/chinese-copycat-cars-2017-shanghai-motor-show

https://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/image_uploaded_from_ios-137.jpg?itok=uOwrbQeV
Zotye E200 – Smart Fortwo

The Zotye E200 is an all-electric city car which holds a striking resemblance to the Smart Fortwo model. A Zotye spokesman said it has a 124-mile range when fully charged - a 25% increase on that offered by the Smart Fortwo Electric Drive - and has "performance like Smart".

He said the model, which is sold in China and also exported to the US, is typically bought by women and younger buyers. Costing around ¥100,000 (£11,300), it is more expensive than its premium saloon sibling, the Z700. However, China offers both central and local government incentives for electric vehicles (EVs), which is likely to bring this price down. Evidently, the issues of EV pricing are a worldwide problem ...
...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/car-shows/the-chinese-copycat-cars-of-the-2017-shanghai-motor-show/ar-BBA30VD#page=3

Zotye E200 – Smart Fortwo
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBA2YoL.img?h=414&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f
© Provided by Haymarket Media Group

The Zotye E200 is an all-electric city car which holds a striking resemblance to the Smart Fortwo model. A Zotye spokesman said it has a 124mile range when fully charged - a 25% increase on that offered by the Fortwo electric - and has "performance like Smart".

He said the model, which is sold in China and also exported to the US, is typically bought by women and younger buyers. Costing around 100,000 Chinese yuan (£11,300), it is priced at more than its premium saloon sibling the Z700. However, China offers both Central and local government incentives for electric vehicles which is likely to bring this price down. Evidently, the issues of electric vehicle pricing are a worldwide problem.
He said the model, which is sold in China and also exported to the US, is typically bought by women and younger buyers. Costing around 100,000 Chinese yuan (£11,300), it is priced at more than its premium saloon sibling the Z700. However, China offers both Central and local government incentives for electric vehicles which is likely to bring this price down. Evidently, the issues of electric vehicle pricing are a worldwide problem.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBA33px.img?h=414&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f
© Autocar He said the model, which is sold in China and also exported to the US, is typically bought by women and younger buyers. Costing around 100,000 Chinese yuan (£11,300) ...



http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/forums/f4/weego-car-copycat-115194/
WeeGo Car? Copycat?
04-12-2016 Honor
Hey so while I was looking for a new car because my Smart is a little too small for me + I've put in over $2,000 just in 1 month on wheels/alternator/gearshift/etc (was scammed on Craigslist) . I saw a car that look similar to ours behind the car I was interested in. Called in and asked them about it, turns out it's neither a smart nor a Scion iq.
They called it a WheeGo. lol I was dying of laughter thinking someone came up with that name + clearly tried to copy our beautiful Smarts.
I'm just wondering if anyone has ever heard of this?

http://u.cubeupload.com/Honor/wheeg.jpg
Last edited by Honor; 04-12-2016 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Wheego not Weego (still a little funny)

 
04-12-2016 ElementalDragon
Yes, I've been "fortunate" enough to have seen and driven one:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2iqxq51.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/zl80gp.jpg

 
04-13-2016  BigWarpGuy's
Wheego site.[http://wheego.net/nihao/]

http://wheego.net/nihao/wp-content/gallery/life-2011/_5524832394.jpg
'Wheego Electric Cars Inc. was formed as a spin out from Rough and Tuff Electric Vehicles (RTEV), a manufacturer of battery-powered recreational electric vehicles, in June 2009 with Mike McQuary as CEO. The company is headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia.[1]'
Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheego_Electric_Cars]


04-13-2016  Miss Mercedes
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zcpdm1.jpg

The Wheego (also known as the Martin Motors Bubble in Italy and the Shuanghuan Noble in its Chinese homeland) is the result of the kinda infamous suit where Daimler sued Shuanghuan for making a near direct copy of the 450. The exterior is maybe arguably different, but the interior is 95% stolen from a 450.
http://electrifyingtimes.com/Wheego/Wheego_interior.jpg

Unsurprisingly enough, Daimler LOST the court case, with the judge claiming “The impression the Noble makes on a third and informed party by its visual appearance is different to the one that is made to the same person by the Smart... It is commonly accepted that the decision over buying a new car cannot be based only on the exterior characteristics but many other technical specifications such as the power of the engine, fuel consumption, trim specification, retail price and dealers’ network.”

After Daimler lost the case, Shuanghuan rubbed it in their face by making the car's motto: "Smarter than the rest!"

Yet, this still opened the floodgates! There was this car by Shandong:
http://www.autospies.com/images/users/BMW530i/smart_clone.jpg

Who decided to quickly "facelift" the car after being threatened by Daimler:
Then this "roadster"
http://www.all-creatures.org/hope/gw/GD_Shandong-Huoyun_EV.jpg




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