Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Cor van de Water
I think the greatest virtue of LED lights, after savings in
very energy critical applications like solar-lights, is in
the field of shock-resistance and longevity.
Never needing to replace a burned out light can be a much bigger
issue than saving a few watts in a vehicle that is designed to
produce 100,000+ Watts at the flick of a foot.
I doubt that the LED lamp's energy (gasoline) savings will be
noticeable.
I changed the lights on my bikes to LEDs, because the bulbs
kept rattling the filaments apart.

In an EV, you may increase your range, but calculate in the
order of fractions of a percent.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of (-Phil-)
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Or LED:
http://fourtitude.rely.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/1113/printer

-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? - rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis


> Another interesting one is to switch to Xenon HID for the headlights.  
> A HID bulb is 35w versus 55 or 65w, so that's a savings of a minimum
> of 40w!
>
> As an aside, they are brighter and if you won't see brightness
> fluctuate because of 12v voltage fluctuation or sag.
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:40 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? - range
> extenderin EV's? - an analysis
>
>
>> This file is saved at www.herringshaw.com/led.xls   Let me know what you
>> think.
>> In building my Electric Car (88 Mazda getting the Solectria treatment) I
>> came across some LED taillight bulbs at Sherco-auto.com.   You should
>> check them out - connectors and other stuff for good prices.   ANYWAY, So
>> I wanted to see if there's a financial payback on these lights in a
>> ICE vehicle, assuming of course that these could extend the range on
>> an EV at night, which of course there is no price on!
>>
>> My car has 4 taillights, so I bought 4 @ $5 each (combo tail/Brake
>> Light) Check out the file to change numbers and see if you come up
>> with something different - with my analysis, if you drive more than
>> 12.5K miles/year with
>> your taillights on, you'll have a 20% payback.   Put that into Gasoline
>> instead of Diesel, it'll do even better.  What do you think on the
>> efficiency #'s?
>>
>> If you have to change a bulb anyway, then this is a no-brainer, but
>> fun to
>> analyze anyway.   Make sure your Lens color matches the LED color - Make
>> sure your bulb mount faces the bub toward the lens (not always the
>> case, as in my car, so the LEDs are going into the Golf)
>>
>> Assumptions - All in Green can be changed (download the file for
>> changeables)
>>
>> Conventional Taillight Bulbs 100 Watts 4@ 27W (maybe 27 is the brake
>> light, not the running light....)
>>
>> BTU/KWH                         3414
>> BTU/Gallon                 130000 Diesel
>>
>> Alternator Efficiency     70.00% [Turning Motion into Electricity]
>> Engine Efficiency        50.00% [Turning BTU's into Motive energy]
>>
>> $/Gallon                 3
>> Cost of Bulbs                 $20.00 4 - 27W Equivalent Bulbs
>>
>>
>>
>> Taillights Used Per Hour
>> Watts used/hour                 100
>> Efficiency Reduced Watts 285.71
>> BTU used /hour                 975.43
>> Fuel used/hour                 0.007503
>> $$/hour                         0.022510
>>
>> Overall Vehicle
>> $/hour @ 48MPG (TDI Golf) 3.75
>> % of cost going to Taillights 0.60%
>>
>>
>> Hours needed to drive in 1 yr to reach 20% Rate of Return 177.70
>> Miles Driven @ 75 MPH                                         12438.98
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Danny Miller-2
That and general coolness.
Check the archives.  Taillights/running lights/turn signals don't make a
lick of difference in EV range or gasoline mpg.

Headlights also.  The range lost over the possible runtime- generally
well under an hour- on 40W headlights is trivial.  

LED headlights are now possible due to some recent developments in
technology, although you'd really have to know what you're doing (there
are only a few parts potentially capable of replacing headlights) and
honestly while it's more efficient than halogens, it's not wildly more
efficient and the lost range from running halogens is negligible to
begin with.  It would be expensive and of questionable street legality.
 But again there is certainly a coolness factor.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:16 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars?
-rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>

> I think the greatest virtue of LED lights, after savings in
> very energy critical applications like solar-lights, is in
> the field of shock-resistance and longevity.
> Never needing to replace a burned out light can be a much bigger
> issue than saving a few watts in a vehicle that is designed to
> produce 100,000+ Watts at the flick of a foot.
> I doubt that the LED lamp's energy (gasoline) savings will be
> noticeable.
> I changed the lights on my bikes to LEDs, because the bulbs
> kept rattling the filaments apart.
>
> In an EV, you may increase your range, but calculate in the
> order of fractions of a percent.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of (-Phil-)
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:49 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
>
> Or LED:
> http://fourtitude.rely.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/1113/printer
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "(-Phil-)" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
>
>
> > Another interesting one is to switch to Xenon HID for the
> headlights.  
> > A HID bulb is 35w versus 55 or 65w, so that's a savings of a
> minimum
> > of 40w!
> >
> > As an aside, they are brighter and if you won't see brightness
> > fluctuate because of 12v voltage fluctuation or sag.
> >
> > -Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[hidden email]>
> > To: <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:40 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> range
> > extenderin EV's? - an analysis
> >
> >
> >> This file is saved at www.herringshaw.com/led.xls   Let me know
> what you
> >> think.
> >> In building my Electric Car (88 Mazda getting the Solectria
> treatment) I
> >> came across some LED taillight bulbs at Sherco-auto.com.   You
> should>> check them out - connectors and other stuff for good
> prices.   ANYWAY, So
> >> I wanted to see if there's a financial payback on these lights
> in a
> >> ICE vehicle, assuming of course that these could extend the
> range on
> >> an EV at night, which of course there is no price on!
> >>
> >> My car has 4 taillights, so I bought 4 @ $5 each (combo
> tail/Brake
> >> Light) Check out the file to change numbers and see if you come
> up
> >> with something different - with my analysis, if you drive more
> than
> >> 12.5K miles/year with
> >> your taillights on, you'll have a 20% payback.   Put that into
> Gasoline>> instead of Diesel, it'll do even better.  What do you
> think on the
> >> efficiency #'s?
> >>
> >> If you have to change a bulb anyway, then this is a no-brainer,
> but
> >> fun to
> >> analyze anyway.   Make sure your Lens color matches the LED
> color - Make
> >> sure your bulb mount faces the bub toward the lens (not always
> the
> >> case, as in my car, so the LEDs are going into the Golf)
> >>
> >> Assumptions - All in Green can be changed (download the file for
> >> changeables)
> >>
> >> Conventional Taillight Bulbs 100 Watts 4@ 27W (maybe 27 is the
> brake
> >> light, not the running light....)
> >>
> >> BTU/KWH                         3414
> >> BTU/Gallon                 130000 Diesel
> >>
> >> Alternator Efficiency     70.00% [Turning Motion into Electricity]
> >> Engine Efficiency        50.00% [Turning BTU's into Motive energy]
> >>
> >> $/Gallon                 3
> >> Cost of Bulbs                 $20.00 4 - 27W Equivalent Bulbs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Taillights Used Per Hour
> >> Watts used/hour                 100
> >> Efficiency Reduced Watts 285.71
> >> BTU used /hour                 975.43
> >> Fuel used/hour                 0.007503
> >> $$/hour                         0.022510
> >>
> >> Overall Vehicle
> >> $/hour @ 48MPG (TDI Golf) 3.75
> >> % of cost going to Taillights 0.60%
> >>
> >>
> >> Hours needed to drive in 1 yr to reach 20% Rate of Return 177.70
> >> Miles Driven @ 75 MPH                                        
> 12438.98>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

David Nelson-5
As a simple test I decided to get an estimate on how much range I use
in my Gizmo by running the accessories. What I did was start with a
newly charged pack which had sat only about an hour after topping off.
I plugged it in again and recorded how many KWh it used to do the
finish charge (I have a Zivan NG1). Then I turned everything on
including the one headlight except the CD/Radio and left it for an
hour and then charged the pack again. The difference was 0.09KWh as
read at the wall which means the actual use at the batteries was even
less than that. Granted one test isn't enough to establish an true
value but it showed that I use more than that much just pulling out of
my driveway.

David Nelson

On 9/25/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That and general coolness.
> Check the archives.  Taillights/running lights/turn signals don't make a
> lick of difference in EV range or gasoline mpg.
>
> Headlights also.  The range lost over the possible runtime- generally
> well under an hour- on 40W headlights is trivial.
>
> LED headlights are now possible due to some recent developments in
> technology, although you'd really have to know what you're doing (there
> are only a few parts potentially capable of replacing headlights) and
> honestly while it's more efficient than halogens, it's not wildly more
> efficient and the lost range from running halogens is negligible to
> begin with.  It would be expensive and of questionable street legality.
>  But again there is certainly a coolness factor.
>
> Danny
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:16 am
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars?
> -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>
> > I think the greatest virtue of LED lights, after savings in
> > very energy critical applications like solar-lights, is in
> > the field of shock-resistance and longevity.
> > Never needing to replace a burned out light can be a much bigger
> > issue than saving a few watts in a vehicle that is designed to
> > produce 100,000+ Watts at the flick of a foot.
> > I doubt that the LED lamp's energy (gasoline) savings will be
> > noticeable.
> > I changed the lights on my bikes to LEDs, because the bulbs
> > kept rattling the filaments apart.
> >
> > In an EV, you may increase your range, but calculate in the
> > order of fractions of a percent.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > On Behalf Of (-Phil-)
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:49 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> > rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
> >
> > Or LED:
> > http://fourtitude.rely.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/1113/printer
> >
> > -Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "(-Phil-)" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> > rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
> >
> >
> > > Another interesting one is to switch to Xenon HID for the
> > headlights.
> > > A HID bulb is 35w versus 55 or 65w, so that's a savings of a
> > minimum
> > > of 40w!
> > >
> > > As an aside, they are brighter and if you won't see brightness
> > > fluctuate because of 12v voltage fluctuation or sag.
> > >
> > > -Phil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <[hidden email]>
> > > To: <[hidden email]>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:40 PM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -
> > range
> > > extenderin EV's? - an analysis
> > >
> > >
> > >> This file is saved at www.herringshaw.com/led.xls   Let me know
> > what you
> > >> think.
> > >> In building my Electric Car (88 Mazda getting the Solectria
> > treatment) I
> > >> came across some LED taillight bulbs at Sherco-auto.com.   You
> > should>> check them out - connectors and other stuff for good
> > prices.   ANYWAY, So
> > >> I wanted to see if there's a financial payback on these lights
> > in a
> > >> ICE vehicle, assuming of course that these could extend the
> > range on
> > >> an EV at night, which of course there is no price on!
> > >>
> > >> My car has 4 taillights, so I bought 4 @ $5 each (combo
> > tail/Brake
> > >> Light) Check out the file to change numbers and see if you come
> > up
> > >> with something different - with my analysis, if you drive more
> > than
> > >> 12.5K miles/year with
> > >> your taillights on, you'll have a 20% payback.   Put that into
> > Gasoline>> instead of Diesel, it'll do even better.  What do you
> > think on the
> > >> efficiency #'s?
> > >>
> > >> If you have to change a bulb anyway, then this is a no-brainer,
> > but
> > >> fun to
> > >> analyze anyway.   Make sure your Lens color matches the LED
> > color - Make
> > >> sure your bulb mount faces the bub toward the lens (not always
> > the
> > >> case, as in my car, so the LEDs are going into the Golf)
> > >>
> > >> Assumptions - All in Green can be changed (download the file for
> > >> changeables)
> > >>
> > >> Conventional Taillight Bulbs 100 Watts 4@ 27W (maybe 27 is the
> > brake
> > >> light, not the running light....)
> > >>
> > >> BTU/KWH                         3414
> > >> BTU/Gallon                 130000 Diesel
> > >>
> > >> Alternator Efficiency     70.00% [Turning Motion into Electricity]
> > >> Engine Efficiency        50.00% [Turning BTU's into Motive energy]
> > >>
> > >> $/Gallon                 3
> > >> Cost of Bulbs                 $20.00 4 - 27W Equivalent Bulbs
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Taillights Used Per Hour
> > >> Watts used/hour                 100
> > >> Efficiency Reduced Watts 285.71
> > >> BTU used /hour                 975.43
> > >> Fuel used/hour                 0.007503
> > >> $$/hour                         0.022510
> > >>
> > >> Overall Vehicle
> > >> $/hour @ 48MPG (TDI Golf) 3.75
> > >> % of cost going to Taillights 0.60%
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hours needed to drive in 1 yr to reach 20% Rate of Return 177.70
> > >> Miles Driven @ 75 MPH
> > 12438.98>>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> For subscription options, see
> > >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

mperry
That sounds similar to what I calculated (years ago) on my car, also.
(Similar setup to the Gizmo.)

I stopped by a MC shop for a part and forgot to turn the lights off.
Someone came running in to tell me I would run out of power. <g> I
finished my shopping... and later calculated it was about the power to
pull out of the parking lot.

On Tue, September 25, 2007 6:53 am, David Nelson wrote:

> As a simple test I decided to get an estimate on how much range I use
> in my Gizmo by running the accessories. What I did was start with a newly
> charged pack which had sat only about an hour after topping off. I plugged
> it in again and recorded how many KWh it used to do the finish charge (I
> have a Zivan NG1). Then I turned everything on including the one headlight
> except the CD/Radio and left it for an hour and then charged the pack
> again. The difference was 0.09KWh as read at the wall which means the
> actual use at the batteries was even less than that. Granted one test
> isn't enough to establish an true value but it showed that I use more than
> that much just pulling out of my driveway.
>
> David Nelson


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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Alan Brinkman
Looking at safety issues, LED lights turn on quicker than incandescent
bulbs, allowing quicker response times.  If your LED tail lights turn on
200 ms sooner, at 65 MPH that SUV in your rear window will stop 19.1
feet sooner.  I put LED lights on my travel trailer, and when you turn
on the marker lights or hit the brakes, the travel trailer lights up
first, then the incandescent lights show on the pickup.  It seems
strange at first, until you get used to what is going on.  Also, a
disabled vehicle on the side of the road, ICE, with one marginal
battery, will have the emergency flashers work longer through the night,
warning others.

The cost of LED lights can be a bit much, but if you just save one
fender or rear bumper on your favorite EV............

Alan


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars?
-rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

That sounds similar to what I calculated (years ago) on my car, also.
(Similar setup to the Gizmo.)

I stopped by a MC shop for a part and forgot to turn the lights off.
Someone came running in to tell me I would run out of power. <g> I
finished my shopping... and later calculated it was about the power to
pull out of the parking lot.

On Tue, September 25, 2007 6:53 am, David Nelson wrote:
> As a simple test I decided to get an estimate on how much range I use
> in my Gizmo by running the accessories. What I did was start with a
newly
> charged pack which had sat only about an hour after topping off. I
plugged
> it in again and recorded how many KWh it used to do the finish charge
(I
> have a Zivan NG1). Then I turned everything on including the one
headlight
> except the CD/Radio and left it for an hour and then charged the pack
> again. The difference was 0.09KWh as read at the wall which means the
> actual use at the batteries was even less than that. Granted one test
> isn't enough to establish an true value but it showed that I use more
than
> that much just pulling out of my driveway.
>
> David Nelson


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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Mike.B
Now I like Alan's concept of using LED's.  I did
replace all 16 of the lamps in my EV that are on when
driving at night, with each one pulling aprox 1amp or
more each, it certainly helpe my Aux battery from
draining as quickly. My DC/DC converter runs off of my
Field winding battery pack, so I only switch it on,
when absolutely needed.   And now with Alan's response
of safety, I'll probably do the same in the family car
as well.

--- Alan Brinkman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looking at safety issues, LED lights turn on quicker
> than incandescent
> bulbs, allowing quicker response times.  If your LED
> tail lights turn on
> 200 ms sooner, at 65 MPH that SUV in your rear
> window will stop 19.1
> feet sooner.  I put LED lights on my travel trailer,
> and when you turn
> on the marker lights or hit the brakes, the travel
> trailer lights up
> first, then the incandescent lights show on the
> pickup.  It seems
> strange at first, until you get used to what is
> going on.  Also, a
> disabled vehicle on the side of the road, ICE, with
> one marginal
> battery, will have the emergency flashers work
> longer through the night,
> warning others.
>
> The cost of LED lights can be a bit much, but if you
> just save one
> fender or rear bumper on your favorite
> EV............
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:49 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver
> in gas cars?
> -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis
>
> That sounds similar to what I calculated (years ago)
> on my car, also.
> (Similar setup to the Gizmo.)
>
> I stopped by a MC shop for a part and forgot to turn
> the lights off.
> Someone came running in to tell me I would run out
> of power. <g> I
> finished my shopping... and later calculated it was
> about the power to
> pull out of the parking lot.
>
> On Tue, September 25, 2007 6:53 am, David Nelson
> wrote:
> > As a simple test I decided to get an estimate on
> how much range I use
> > in my Gizmo by running the accessories. What I did
> was start with a
> newly
> > charged pack which had sat only about an hour
> after topping off. I
> plugged
> > it in again and recorded how many KWh it used to
> do the finish charge
> (I
> > have a Zivan NG1). Then I turned everything on
> including the one
> headlight
> > except the CD/Radio and left it for an hour and
> then charged the pack
> > again. The difference was 0.09KWh as read at the
> wall which means the
> > actual use at the batteries was even less than
> that. Granted one test
> > isn't enough to establish an true value but it
> showed that I use more
> than
> > that much just pulling out of my driveway.
> >
> > David Nelson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Paul-253
In reply to this post by Alan Brinkman
Yes but...

On Sep 25, 2007, at 2:20 PM, Alan Brinkman wrote:

> Looking at safety issues, LED lights turn on quicker than incandescent
> bulbs, allowing quicker response times.  If your LED tail lights  
> turn on
> 200 ms sooner, at 65 MPH that SUV in your rear window will stop 19.1
> feet sooner.  I put LED lights on my travel trailer, and when you turn
> on the marker lights or hit the brakes, the travel trailer lights up
> first, then the incandescent lights show on the pickup.  It seems
> strange at first, until you get used to what is going on.  Also, a
> disabled vehicle on the side of the road, ICE, with one marginal
> battery, will have the emergency flashers work longer through the  
> night,
> warning others.
>
> The cost of LED lights can be a bit much, but if you just save one
> fender or rear bumper on your favorite EV............

Most LED replacements of incandescent bulbs are noticeably dimmer,  
the approved LED trailer style tail lights are the exception - not  
the rule.

Most *inexpensive* LED "replacement" bulbs are MUCH dimmer, and tend  
to be very directional as well (they may light you up strait back but  
not 1/2 lane to the side.)

Many inexpensive LED taillights put as many LEDs in series as they  
can and regulate current with a resistor. They need the resistor to  
drop only a little of the voltage so they don't have to use power  
resistors on a heat sink. The result is that the many LED taillights  
do get progressively dimmer as the 12v system dies (it can be faster  
than an incandescent bulb as they shift toward red as they dim.)

I don't know of any LED replacement bulbs with DOT approval but I  
have one in mind to try:
<http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/115x-xLX3.htm> Its not cheap,  
but it has a wide beam angle (130 degrees) and 240 lumens of output,  
about 60% of the brake light on an 1157 car tail light bulb (one  
candlepower equals 12.57 lumens.)

Just my random thoughts. I've played with a couple of LED 1157 bulbs  
but have yet to put one in a car and *drive* it.

Paul Gooch

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
One of the things I like about the EV is no warm up time.

Anyone with these HID headlights have info on how long they take to come up?

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Paul-253
I have actually tried one of those in my Gizmo. Since it only has one
tail light I'm concerned about visibility. It is very bright and is
definitely visible from the sides. I initially used it as my tail
light but it overpowered my brake light. I finally just purchased a
wide array led light for my brake light (it has leds pointing directly
to the sides to light up the reflector) so it could be seen over the
3W running light.

Keep in mind that the lumens from an led is measured differently than
from an incandescent bulb. I don't remember exactly what the
difference was but the superbrightleds.com site talks about it.

David

On 9/25/07, Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know of any LED replacement bulbs with DOT approval but I
have one in mind to try:
<http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/115x-xLX3.htm> Its not cheap,
but it has a wide beam angle (130 degrees) and 240 lumens of output,
about 60% of the brake light on an 1157 car tail light bulb (one
candlepower equals 12.57 lumens.)

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars?-rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

mperry
In reply to this post by Alan Brinkman
Interesting.

I can't say that I've seen any difference in speed of my lights lighting. I
know trucks use them to decrease the chance of blown bulbs. (There's the
side that they are brighter than other taillights on trailers.)

For auto use, I don't see any advantage. Modern cars have taillights bright
enough to hurt the eye... though I could see an advantage if I were going to
leave my car overnight on the side of the road. For an EV, that wouldn't be
an advantage, unless your batts are nearly dead. <g>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Brinkman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas
cars?-rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis


> Looking at safety issues, LED lights turn on quicker than incandescent
> bulbs, allowing quicker response times.  If your LED tail lights turn on
> 200 ms sooner, at 65 MPH that SUV in your rear window will stop 19.1
> feet sooner.  I put LED lights on my travel trailer, and when you turn
> on the marker lights or hit the brakes, the travel trailer lights up
> first, then the incandescent lights show on the pickup.  It seems
> strange at first, until you get used to what is going on.  Also, a
> disabled vehicle on the side of the road, ICE, with one marginal
> battery, will have the emergency flashers work longer through the night,
> warning others.
>
> The cost of LED lights can be a bit much, but if you just save one
> fender or rear bumper on your favorite EV............
>
> Alan

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Danny Miller-2
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
A 3W red Luxeon sounds excessive for a taillight.

Lumens are different in 2 ways.  First off a white taillight bulb may
produce 400 lumens of white, but the red filter only makes the light red
by blocking more than 2/3rds of the light energy because the blue and
green components are useless (a filter does not change photons of one
wavelength into another).

Then the bulb throws those remaining lumens at 360 deg.  Half will
strike the back, which may be silvered so at least some of it will end
up getting thrown forward again.

It is possible for an LED to be excessively bright only in the center.  
Even in "wide" spread LEDs, like 130 deg, the intensity is greater
straight ahead, decreasing substantially as angle increases.  This can
result in a very bright spot projected onto the middle of a taillight lens.

Multiple 7.6mm P4 pkg are a really good option.  They get used a lot in
commercial taillights.  Since the pkgs can be spread out, they won't
make a single bright spot.  There's also far less thermal issues when
it's done this way.

Danny

David Nelson wrote:

>I have actually tried one of those in my Gizmo. Since it only has one
>tail light I'm concerned about visibility. It is very bright and is
>definitely visible from the sides. I initially used it as my tail
>light but it overpowered my brake light. I finally just purchased a
>wide array led light for my brake light (it has leds pointing directly
>to the sides to light up the reflector) so it could be seen over the
>3W running light.
>
>Keep in mind that the lumens from an led is measured differently than
>from an incandescent bulb. I don't remember exactly what the
>difference was but the superbrightleds.com site talks about it.
>
>David
>
>On 9/25/07, Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>I don't know of any LED replacement bulbs with DOT approval but I
>have one in mind to try:
><http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/115x-xLX3.htm> Its not cheap,
>but it has a wide beam angle (130 degrees) and 240 lumens of output,
>about 60% of the brake light on an 1157 car tail light bulb (one
>candlepower equals 12.57 lumens.)
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  
>

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Martin Klingensmith
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
I put a cheap HID conversion in my 07 Civic. The lights turn on
immediately and reach full brightness within 10 seconds after being cold.
--
Martin K

Jeff Shanab wrote:
> One of the things I like about the EV is no warm up time.
>
> Anyone with these HID headlights have info on how long they take to come up?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Danny Miller-2
Simple: start with a red Luxeon LED.
I think they come with different opening angles (lenses).
Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

A 3W red Luxeon sounds excessive for a taillight.

Lumens are different in 2 ways.  First off a white taillight bulb may produce 400 lumens of white, but the red filter only makes the light red by blocking more than 2/3rds of the light energy because the blue and green components are useless (a filter does not change photons of one wavelength into another).

Then the bulb throws those remaining lumens at 360 deg.  Half will strike the back, which may be silvered so at least some of it will end up getting thrown forward again.

It is possible for an LED to be excessively bright only in the center.  
Even in "wide" spread LEDs, like 130 deg, the intensity is greater straight ahead, decreasing substantially as angle increases.  This can result in a very bright spot projected onto the middle of a taillight lens.

Multiple 7.6mm P4 pkg are a really good option.  They get used a lot in commercial taillights.  Since the pkgs can be spread out, they won't make a single bright spot.  There's also far less thermal issues when it's done this way.

Danny

David Nelson wrote:

>I have actually tried one of those in my Gizmo. Since it only has one
>tail light I'm concerned about visibility. It is very bright and is
>definitely visible from the sides. I initially used it as my tail light
>but it overpowered my brake light. I finally just purchased a wide
>array led light for my brake light (it has leds pointing directly to
>the sides to light up the reflector) so it could be seen over the 3W
>running light.
>
>Keep in mind that the lumens from an led is measured differently than
>from an incandescent bulb. I don't remember exactly what the difference
>was but the superbrightleds.com site talks about it.
>
>David
>
>On 9/25/07, Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>I don't know of any LED replacement bulbs with DOT approval but I have
>one in mind to try:
><http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/115x-xLX3.htm> Its not cheap, but
>it has a wide beam angle (130 degrees) and 240 lumens of output, about
>60% of the brake light on an 1157 car tail light bulb (one candlepower
>equals 12.57 lumens.)
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  
>

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

TrotFox Greyfoot
In reply to this post by Danny Miller-2
The 3W Luxeon is excessive for a tail-light.  They have a lower
brightness option for that application though.  There is also a bi-pin
dual brightness unit available for such an application.  The 3W unit
is intended to replace brake lights!

I replaced the incandescent in my 3rd brake light with LEDs a while
back.  Used 5mm superbrights to fill in the lens, hot-glue to hold
them on.  They don't line up correctly but are nearly the same
brightness as the other brakes.  I only used 105 LEDs to get that job
done...  Some day I will rework it to lower the profile and give a
custom look.  The light level is fine for getting attention but I
would not go with less LEDs than it takes to fill whatever lens you
have when setting up this sort of app.  5mm units typically do not put
off enough light to be useful in conjunction with a reflector...

Also, it's a true PITA to solder together all those 6-LED strings and
resistors.  = |  In the end that setup uses almost exactly the same
amount of power as the original bulb!

Trot, the researching, fox...  (been drooling over these for my ICE
for a while now...)

On 9/25/07, Danny Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A 3W red Luxeon sounds excessive for a taillight.
>
> Lumens are different in 2 ways.  First off a white taillight bulb may
> produce 400 lumens of white, but the red filter only makes the light red
> by blocking more than 2/3rds of the light energy because the blue and
> green components are useless (a filter does not change photons of one
> wavelength into another).
>
> Then the bulb throws those remaining lumens at 360 deg.  Half will
> strike the back, which may be silvered so at least some of it will end
> up getting thrown forward again.
>
> It is possible for an LED to be excessively bright only in the center.
> Even in "wide" spread LEDs, like 130 deg, the intensity is greater
> straight ahead, decreasing substantially as angle increases.  This can
> result in a very bright spot projected onto the middle of a taillight lens.
>
> Multiple 7.6mm P4 pkg are a really good option.  They get used a lot in
> commercial taillights.  Since the pkgs can be spread out, they won't
> make a single bright spot.  There's also far less thermal issues when
> it's done this way.
>
> Danny

--
|  /\_/\       TrotFox         \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
|  >\_/<       [hidden email]       \ third alternative."

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SINCLAIR C5 C-5 ELECTRIC VEHICLE CAR, for sale on ebay by the 29th currently at $199 in virginia

Geopilot
In reply to this post by Danny Miller-2
this is not mine. I am just forwarding the info i saw on ebay so don't
email me about it.

on ebay

item number 30174452543
SINCLAIR C5 C-5 ELECTRIC VEHICLE CAR, for sale on ebay by the 29th
currently at $199 in virginia


The Sinclair C5 electric car! I bought it new from England and had it
shipped over in the late 1980's. Used it for years and put it way 15
years ago. I added 1 of the 2 option rear view side mirrors for the
picture. I did install the optional horn back in the 80's. Been garaged
kept all this time. It does have some scuff marks that can me elbow
muscle cleaned. It does use a wheel chair battery that can be recharged.
I do not have the battery. When I purchased it, I had to clip the
battery end wires to make it work correctly with USA batteries. I do not
have the key to the trunk, but it opens easy. There is no reason why it
should not work, but I can not guarantee it. It is being sold as is!
This is a collectors item. This C5 must be either picked up or find a
way to have it shipped to you. I do not have a box for it. If you can
find a freight company to come to my house and pick it up, fine! I do
have the top dust cover for it also. I have the original back Sinclair
tires, that I had replaced when I bought it. If you have any questions
feel free to write me.

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THE CAR-CYCLE X-4, a PIONEER of INTEGRATED SUSPENSION

Geopilot
In reply to this post by Danny Miller-2
http://microship.com/bobstuart/article1.html

this talks about converting it to electric power.

interesting discussion of benefit and construction of vehicles in
general and a pendulum controller to kick in electric assit only on
hills which i thought was pretty clever.


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Re: SINCLAIR C5 C-5 ELECTRIC VEHICLE CAR, for sale on ebay by the 29th currently at $199 in virginia

rodhower
In reply to this post by Geopilot
That's item 230174452543
--- Geopilot <[hidden email]> wrote:

> this is not mine. I am just forwarding the info i
> saw on ebay so don't
> email me about it.
>
> on ebay
>
> item number 30174452543
> SINCLAIR C5 C-5 ELECTRIC VEHICLE CAR, for sale on
> ebay by the 29th
> currently at $199 in virginia
>
>
> The Sinclair C5 electric car! I bought it new from
> England and had it
> shipped over in the late 1980's. Used it for years
> and put it way 15
> years ago. I added 1 of the 2 option rear view side
> mirrors for the
> picture. I did install the optional horn back in the
> 80's. Been garaged
> kept all this time. It does have some scuff marks
> that can me elbow
> muscle cleaned. It does use a wheel chair battery
> that can be recharged.
> I do not have the battery. When I purchased it, I
> had to clip the
> battery end wires to make it work correctly with USA
> batteries. I do not
> have the key to the trunk, but it opens easy. There
> is no reason why it
> should not work, but I can not guarantee it. It is
> being sold as is!
> This is a collectors item. This C5 must be either
> picked up or find a
> way to have it shipped to you. I do not have a box
> for it. If you can
> find a freight company to come to my house and pick
> it up, fine! I do
> have the top dust cover for it also. I have the
> original back Sinclair
> tires, that I had replaced when I bought it. If you
> have any questions
> feel free to write me.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Paul-253
In reply to this post by Danny Miller-2
On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:17 PM, Danny Miller wrote:

> A 3W red Luxeon sounds excessive for a taillight.

Yes, I was looking at the 1157 replacement. It uses the Luxeon at a  
much lower power level for the tail lights and full power for brake  
lights.

> Lumens are different in 2 ways.  First off a white taillight bulb may
> produce 400 lumens of white, but the red filter only makes the  
> light red
> by blocking more than 2/3rds of the light energy because the blue and
> green components are useless (a filter does not change photons of one
> wavelength into another).
>
> Then the bulb throws those remaining lumens at 360 deg.  Half will
> strike the back, which may be silvered so at least some of it will end
> up getting thrown forward again.

A couple of very good points. I may get as much red light out the  
lens with 240 lumens of red LED with a 130 degree spread as I can get  
with a 1157 bulb. The question becomes how much of the light from an  
incandescent tail light is wasted. Car tail light bulbs are generally  
"warm white." Just how much is red, and how much the reflector  
looses, are questions I haven't found any documented answers to.

> It is possible for an LED to be excessively bright only in the center.
> Even in "wide" spread LEDs, like 130 deg, the intensity is greater
> straight ahead, decreasing substantially as angle increases.  This can
> result in a very bright spot projected onto the middle of a  
> taillight lens.
>
> Multiple 7.6mm P4 pkg are a really good option.  They get used a  
> lot in
> commercial taillights.  Since the pkgs can be spread out, they won't
> make a single bright spot.  There's also far less thermal issues when
> it's done this way.

There will be no cutting up of '66 Datsun tail light assemblies!  
Either it works acceptably well (equally bright, not to directional,  
not to "spot light") or I put the 1157 bulbs back in. I have looked  
at LED bulbs for it, but its not the current priority. Its a garage  
ornament at this time and that needs to be taken care of before I can  
really rate the effectiveness of LED bulbs for it. (real world with  
my wife following me)

Thanx,
Paul Gooch

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Re: SINCLAIR C5 C-5 ELECTRIC VEHICLE

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by rodhower
I looked into one of these almost 20 years ago.  I don't think what I larned
then has changed much since - these are real "cuties" but they can be
terribly fragile and troublesome little EVs.  They're sort of Mini-EL
wannabes that didn't make the grade (though I think they actually predate
the Mini-EL and are even smaller).

Frankly, they're little more than toys.  But if you want it just to tinker
with and not as a practical daily driver, it might be fun.  

Others may disagree : perhaps I'm too practical, but I wouldn't pay much
more than the opening bid for it.  

However, given the current mania for used EVs, I wouldn't be surprised if it
gets close to a grand before it's done.  If you really want it, keep track
of the winner and offer him a couple hundred bucks in a year or two. ;-)

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: LED Taillights - a money saver in gas cars? -rangeextenderin EV's? - an analysis

Danny Miller-2
In reply to this post by Paul-253
Well lemme point out something else.
Unless you have a buck converter, the red 3W LED is like 3V @ 1A.  But
we start with a 13.8V system, so we have to burn off 10.8W in a huge
resistor.
Maybe you do have buck converter in there and if so great.

With multiple LEDs, the situation is simpler.  We can put 3x in series
for a 9V forward voltage and the ballast resistor only needs to absorb
4.8W.

The 7.6mm P4 pks are easy to use IF the red lens is screwed onto the
back half.  If the whole thing's one glued together piece and the bulb
is socketed through the back, we may have a problem.

But let's say the lens does unscrew.  What we can do is get some
prototyping PCB from Radio Shack that is nothing but a grid of holes and
copper pads.  The P4's pins are 2 holes apart.  If it's the board the
with square pads, you can forgoe the wiring and just glob a lot of
solder to bridge pads to make a trace.  So cut the board to a shape that
fits in there, make a few strings of 3 each string with a proper series
resistor and put those strings in parallel.  I'm not sure how many P4s
it takes to make a taillight but I believe around a dozen P4s at their
max continuous current rating would be quite powerful and viewable in
full sun.

In many flashlights with elliptical silvered reflectors, those odd "side
emitter" Luxeon emitters actually cast a better pattern than the
standard Lambertian emitter because the beam is shaped according to the
reflector's design, not the wide Lambertian distribution.  That might
make a side emitter better for those housings where you can't separate
the lens and put in a P4 board AND there's a silvered reflector but I'm
not sure.

Danny

Paul wrote:

>On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:17 PM, Danny Miller wrote:
>
>  
>
>>A 3W red Luxeon sounds excessive for a taillight.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, I was looking at the 1157 replacement. It uses the Luxeon at a  
>much lower power level for the tail lights and full power for brake  
>lights.
>
>  
>
>>Lumens are different in 2 ways.  First off a white taillight bulb may
>>produce 400 lumens of white, but the red filter only makes the  
>>light red
>>by blocking more than 2/3rds of the light energy because the blue and
>>green components are useless (a filter does not change photons of one
>>wavelength into another).
>>
>>Then the bulb throws those remaining lumens at 360 deg.  Half will
>>strike the back, which may be silvered so at least some of it will end
>>up getting thrown forward again.
>>    
>>
>
>A couple of very good points. I may get as much red light out the  
>lens with 240 lumens of red LED with a 130 degree spread as I can get  
>with a 1157 bulb. The question becomes how much of the light from an  
>incandescent tail light is wasted. Car tail light bulbs are generally  
>"warm white." Just how much is red, and how much the reflector  
>looses, are questions I haven't found any documented answers to.
>
>  
>
>>It is possible for an LED to be excessively bright only in the center.
>>Even in "wide" spread LEDs, like 130 deg, the intensity is greater
>>straight ahead, decreasing substantially as angle increases.  This can
>>result in a very bright spot projected onto the middle of a  
>>taillight lens.
>>
>>Multiple 7.6mm P4 pkg are a really good option.  They get used a  
>>lot in
>>commercial taillights.  Since the pkgs can be spread out, they won't
>>make a single bright spot.  There's also far less thermal issues when
>>it's done this way.
>>    
>>
>
>There will be no cutting up of '66 Datsun tail light assemblies!  
>Either it works acceptably well (equally bright, not to directional,  
>not to "spot light") or I put the 1157 bulbs back in. I have looked  
>at LED bulbs for it, but its not the current priority. Its a garage  
>ornament at this time and that needs to be taken care of before I can  
>really rate the effectiveness of LED bulbs for it. (real world with  
>my wife following me)
>
>Thanx,
>Paul Gooch
>
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