Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

David Beard
I think four seater, 2+2's might be "doable" after you get prices down a bit. My main problem with four seaters is that you have to design for the additional weight of 2 extra passengers....which could be quite heavy here in the "Obesity Capital of the World-US". and weight adds cost in the form of additonal batterys, bigger motors etc.....
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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

David Beard
I veiw the sportscar as a vehicle design option, the main criteria is a small light one or two person commuter vehicle. the OBV!O would be another in the same category...

from a production standpoint they are both small, light, composite two seat vehicles.....

the VW bug, and the Porsche 911 would be a similar comparison...both about the same size and weight, with similar drivetrains, similar materials, so they would have similar production costs in the same volumes,...but one was marketed as an economy car, and the other a sportscar, at a higher margin, with some upgraded features....

it's this margin that is important to offset the incremental cost of EV components.....

that doesn't mean we have to make a $100k tesla, but perhaps something that can compete with the $40k
audi tt:

http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2007/09/17/newscolumn1.html



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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

David Beard
In reply to this post by David Beard
I agree, Lee and Jerry are both great guys, and both would do anything they could to help you out. I don't think however that they will succeed at getting many EV's to market if they don't worry about profits.

The goal is to replace as many heavy polluter, gas guzzling behemoths as possible....for our environment, for our health, for our children,

and for our national security issues, it makes absolutely no sense to spend billions on protecting an energy source that we can replace, or drawing the wrath of millions around the world for doing so....

Which scenario do you see as having a greater impact...a company that builds a couple of dozen cars, sells them at break even, or a slight loss.....and then has to close it's doors becasue the founders are bankrupt...

Or a company that grows rapidly from a hundred cars to haundred thousand a year, profits, reinvests in technology and is able to create hundreds or thousands of jobs, give back to the community, and perhaps fund other ventures, subsidize the education of it's workforce.

Could you help yourself with $100, how about $100,000, How many other people could you help if you had a billion?
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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
Very interesting reading and I will be letting it all soak in.

For the record, I have no plans to start a religion, so there is no need
to start any controversies!!  ;-)   I am a firm believer however that no
business has ever survived on a plan to do philanthropy.   First you have
to make a profit, then you do the philanthropy (and hopefully lots of it).
 I used to be a dewey eyed dreamer, but that doesn't cut it.

I hear time and time again that there is a huge market for BEV's.  Either
there is or there isn't (well maybe, it's not that simple - maybe there is
for the RIGHT BEV, but not the WRONG BEV).   So if there is, we should be
able to make a profit, if not, then we best move our attention elsewhere
and stop yakking.

Since no one has managed to develop any open standards, I guess that means
we will have to begin now.   Suggestions?

Best,

Dell
PS just returned from the California Fuel Cell Partnership where I had
some very interesting "discussions" or non-discussions if you will with
car reps.  YouTube film to follow when I am able to resuscitate my video
camera.

// I agree, Lee and Jerry are both great guys, and both would do anything
// they could to help you out. I don't think however that they will succeed
// at getting many EV's to market if they don't worry about profits.
//
// The goal is to replace as many heavy polluter, gas guzzling behemoths as
// possible....for our environment, for our health, for our children,
//
// and for our national security issues, it makes absolutely no sense to
// spend billions on protecting an energy source that we can replace, or
// drawing the wrath of millions around the world for doing so....
//
// Which scenario do you see as having a greater impact...a company that
// builds a couple of dozen cars, sells them at break even, or a slight
// loss.....and then has to close it's doors becasue the founders are
// bankrupt...
//
// Or a company that grows rapidly from a hundred cars to haundred thousand a
// year, profits, reinvests in technology and is able to create hundreds or
// thousands of jobs, give back to the community, and perhaps fund other
// ventures, subsidize the education of it's workforce.
//
// Could you help yourself with $100, how about $100,000, How many other
// people could you help if you had a billion?
// _____________________________________________________________
// Begin a career in graphic design.  Click here for free information.
//
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s5wZT27kuhxHEo3SMTbRzlfKSIalMfbnUyGcGb66UqDHMfl/
//
//
//
// _______________________________________________
// For subscription options, see
// http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
//

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Lloyd Wayne Reece
In reply to this post by David Beard
OK I've read quite a lot on this subject.   I would love to help start
an EV company.  I don't think I bring much to the table in terms of
captial (I am sure on this one), know how (I'm just learning), or
computer expertiese but I do know what does and does not work for me.

A lot of EV's that have been produced have gone out of their way to look
like something from a freak show.  I am not disparaging anyone's ideas
or since of style but I feel that making the EV look like anything but a
car is not the way to get people to buy it as a car.  I think that this
has done much damage to the EV cause as a lot of the vehicles have
looked like mutated Golf Carts or Alien beings.  Don't get me wrong
because some of them have looked quite stylish but the average American
just looks and says "you won't catch me dead in that thing".   I believe
this is why the smart car has not made any inroads into America.  It's
just too tiny and looks too much like a toy not a real car.   I am not
one to want or urge conformity but you must agree that to sell someone
on something familar is much much eaiser than trying to sell them on a
new concept in propulsion and in looks (i.e. many of the three wheeled
vechiles that have come down the pike).  By default most of the people
on this list are different and probably don't mind being identified as
being differnet but the average Amercian just wants something that looks
good and does not imbarrass him when he parks it next to a Corolla or an
Accord or a Dodge Neon.  Styling that is too far from the norm does not
allow a product to get the time of day to grow remember the Edsel???

When I got my Electric Car I wanted a car that the family would fit in
and that would be able to take us to and from the store, doctor etc...
I did get that but it is a bit cramped.  My EV was originally a Datsun
(now Nissan) 200SX and as such is a bit small for my 6' 4" frame but I
can fit in it as long as you don't want anyone but my 8 year old setting
behind me.  I have a wife and 2 children (13 and 8 years) and if I am to
buy another EV it must be capable of caring these 4 people.  Now my wife
is much smaller than I and the 13 year old has grown past her in height
(got it all from me) so I want a car that will allow enough space in the
back so that the now 5 foot plus 13 year old girl will be able to sit in
the back in comfort.  Now we don't go a lot of places as a family and
most of my use of the car is commuting back and forth to work but if I
don't have the capacity to take the whole family somewhere I can't
justify spending any kind of money on it.  

I guess the ideal would be a small putt putt for me to go back and forth
to work and a larger car or mini van to take the family on trips etc...
I don't think I could ever afford that as an ICE I'm sure I can't afford
it as 2 EV's.  

I'm sure the SunriseII is a well designed vehicle but in the long run I
think it is just as unobtainable as the Tesla Roadster.   And for mostly
the same reason.  It does not make ecomical sense! or dollars and cents!  

For EV's to "make it" they need to accomidate the needs of the family as
they will cost the family much and they will have to fullfill many
roles.  Part taxi, part truck the vehicle will have to preform as any
car has for many years and while we know that range and speed can be
limiting factors for it not to be able to assist the family would be the
most  crippling blow.

So if a vechile is to be produced a sports car for the single man may
cause heads to turn but a practicle workhorse for the family will sell
many more.

Lloyd Wayne Reece
1981 Lectra Centauri
Las Vegas, NV


[hidden email] wrote:

>I think four seater, 2+2's might be "doable" after you get prices down a bit. My main problem with four seaters is that you have to design for the additional weight of 2 extra passengers....which could be quite heavy here in the "Obesity Capital of the World-US". and weight adds cost in the form of additonal batterys, bigger motors etc.....
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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Aaron Eiche
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Lloyd Wayne Reece <[hidden email]>
wrote:


> I'm sure the SunriseII is a well designed vehicle but in the long run I
> think it is just as unobtainable as the Tesla Roadster.   And for mostly
> the same reason.  It does not make ecomical sense! or dollars and cents!
>

At this point, the Sunrise II is in Development. I haven't seen any quotes
for production of a kit, or a complete car so we should hold off judgment
until we get them. It may darn well make a lot of sense...


>
> For EV's to "make it" they need to accomidate the needs of the family as
> they will cost the family much and they will have to fullfill many
> roles.  Part taxi, part truck the vehicle will have to preform as any
> car has for many years and while we know that range and speed can be
> limiting factors for it not to be able to assist the family would be the
> most  crippling blow.
>

I have to agree. While I can appreciate the need for a fits-all-needs
vehicle, I don't think avoiding one is a killing blow. Fewer people are
having children, and more people are spending their dollar on themselves.
The majority of driving is done alone, without anyone else.

As I see it, the only way to keep the cost down is to limit the range and
therefore lighten the load so your range is reasonable (marketable). The
SmartCar isn't on the roads much (I've seen two here in Utah, and been down
to the dealer), but they're also sold out for a full 12 months, nationwide.
It's only a two seater, and it's only got 10^3 ft of truck space. There is
absolutely a strong market for commuter cars that don't carry more than 2.

I actually think this is the thinking behind Tesla's roadmap. Get a product
out, then work on getting a product out for the masses.

-Aaron
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Defending the Sunrise II (was: Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?)

Doug Weathers
In reply to this post by Lloyd Wayne Reece
H Lloyd,

On Mar 30, 2008, at 1:57 AM, Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:

> I'm sure the SunriseII is a well designed vehicle but in the long run I
> think it is just as unobtainable as the Tesla Roadster.   And for
> mostly
> the same reason.  It does not make ecomical sense! or dollars and
> cents!

Maybe, maybe not.  We don't yet know what the Sunrise II will cost.  
However, knowing Lee's insistence on simple, robust designs, I am
willing to bet that the Sunrise II will be a great value.

Will it be cost-competitive compared to a used Corolla?  Again we don't
know the final cost or specs, so we can't tell yet.

Furthermore, Lee intends to offer a range of options for batteries and
controller, or to sell it without either.  You should be able to tailor
it closely to your needs.

Please wait until the car is officially announced or released before
making up your mind.  Then we'll have some actual numbers.

And remember that each individual's circumstances are different.  Ken
and his wife (sorry, last name escapes me) did the math and decided
that it made economic sense to buy a Myers Motors NmG - a
funny-looking, one person EV that costs US$36,000.

<http://www.myersmotors.com/buynow.html>

If memory serves, it's working out so well for them that they're
thinking of buying another one.

> For EV's to "make it" they need to accomidate the needs of the family
> as
> they will cost the family much and they will have to fullfill many
> roles.  Part taxi, part truck the vehicle will have to preform as any
> car has for many years and while we know that range and speed can be
> limiting factors for it not to be able to assist the family would be
> the
> most  crippling blow.

I hope you're not talking about the Sunrise II here.  It's being
designed as a full-size four-passenger car with a fairly conventional
design.  Something like a Ford Taurus.  The original Solectria Sunrise
looks like this:

<http://www.evalbum.com/655>

The Sunrise II will look pretty similar as Lee is copying an original
Sunrise.  He's making changes only to accommodate the available parts
(windshield, windows, lights, etc.)

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
In reply to this post by Lloyd Wayne Reece
Lloyd,

>>A lot of EV's that have been produced have gone out of their way to look
like something from a freak show.

BINGO!   But there is a reason.  Three wheel vehicles have lower
requirements (similar to motorcycles) so lower threshold to production.
But they are a reason I haven't bought a BEV yet.

Tesla has the right idea - American's buy based on that primitive
reptilian part of the brain that associates Size with Power and Safety
(there's a documentary quoting a psychologist who consults with SUV
advertisers).   So no matter what people "SAY" they want, they end up
buying something taller, bigger, sportier, faster, etc than they really
need.

What I hear is a need for a "Model T" for the American Family that is an
easy to maintain, easy to drive, non-embarrassing alternative to being a
big-oil addict.

best,

Dell

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Aaron Eiche
Lloyd Wayne Reece made a good case for the "family car" but I think that
that thinking is again falling into the trap of old thinking.
that "A familly will buy 1 car, it must do everything"

Instead I prescribe to a different philosophy. "Use the right tool for
the job"!

Lets look at my block.
house 1: single woman 1 car.
house 2: young couple, each with a job, baby on the way. 2 cars. They
each had the cars before marriage and the different jobs at different
times dictates 2 cars in this town. No doubt when the baby comes, 2 cars
is also a necessity. It is lees miles than driving back and forth.
house 3: single guy(me) 3 cars. Old pickup never drives, grand am, (sat
for 2 years, but batteries in EV are dieing so :-(, it is a 4 door that
was to be my cousins car when she had a baby, but she didn't like it.)
and the EV.
house 4: mother,father and college student, 3 cars
house 5: 2 extended cab diesel pickups, trailer, boat, quads, etc.

I could continue down the block but the point is that 1 car for a family
is not the norm, around here at least.

The paradigm shift that is needed is

EV for the bullshit daily miles, commuting, errands, students.
Natural Gas for municipal trucks and buses
Diesel for over the highway transportation
Hybrids or the existing older gasser for infrequent personal miles of
distance or family gatherings.

If we do this, then we slow the rise in the price of fuel in general,
which slows the rate of food cost and the cost of plastic, often based
on petroleum.
(Natural gas is one of the major feed stocks for plastics.)

I think the EV entry into the market is as the 2nd car, the student's
first car, the commuter car.

But it might be unfair to call it the second car, I like to think of it
the other way, the first car is the EV the second car is the old first
car that now gets driven occasionally and now lasts 4 times longer. Auto
companies depend on the devalue of the car and the "yearly model
hypnosis" to get you to want a new car. They don't want you to find ways
to extend the life of your car! A paradigm shift is when people don't
really know or car what the year is, What year model is your cell phone,
computer, the last airplane you took?

Last year I drove the EV to and from work,the store and the movies every
day, 8700 miles. I drove the gasser less than 3000 miles in 2 years. (I
went to change the oil at the texaco lub and go and they started to
comment on it only being 2000 miles until they saw that it was 2 years.)



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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
Jeff,

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Falling into the 'one car' trap is
an invitation to fall for the argument for the Fuel Cell Vehicle (Everyone
wants to be able to drive 250miles without refilling, and they don't want
to wait overnight to refill).

Your neighbor hood is like mine: no house here has less than two cars, I
for one have 4 (two of which are essentially two seater sports cars, one a
van, another a wagon) and would LOVE to have a two seater for commuting
less than 25 miles each way per day that is at least as large as a CAMRY
and has room for groceries.

Dell

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
*as large as a two seater Camry (if one existed!)  ;-)

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
On 30 Mar 2008 at 14:10, Jeff Shanab wrote:

> The paradigm shift that is needed is
>
> EV for the bullshit daily miles, commuting, errands, students.
> Natural Gas for municipal trucks and buses
> Diesel for over the highway transportation
> Hybrids or the existing older gasser for infrequent personal miles of
> distance or family gatherings.

I''d like to see car-sharing (private motorpools) with a modified station
car concept.  You'd pay a monthly fee and drive a small EV daily.  If you
needed to get a load from the lumberyard, you'd swap it for a pickup for a
day or two, and pay a little more that month.  If you were going on a
vacation, you'd trade it for a minivan and pay the difference for a week.  
Et cetera.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does it mean for EVs?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by design2
[hidden email] wrote:
> I am a firm believer however that no business has ever survived on a
> plan to do philanthropy. First you have to make a profit, then you do
> the philanthropy (and hopefully lots of it).

How then do you explain the thousands of non-profit corporations? Or for
that matter, the churches, schools, and even governments that don't show
a profit?

An organization needs to have *many* goals. Profit should be the means
of achieving its goals -- not the end itself.

> I hear time and time again that there is a huge market for BEV's...
> maybe there is for the RIGHT BEV, but not the WRONG BEV.

I think this is the case. Most EVs have either been badly done scratch
built vehicles, or conversions of ICEs. Either case yields mediocre
results. The car buying public is used to the extremely high level of
development in regular ICE cars, so such EVs seem quite crude in comparison.

But there have been a few EVs that were done right. People's opinions of
them have been correspondingly higher.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by design2
Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:
>> A lot of EV's that have been produced have gone out of their way to
>> look like something from a freak show.

[hidden email] wrote:
> BINGO! But there is a reason...

I think one reason is "art". Cars are highly stylized and artistic
creations. People judge them heavily on how they look.

A person who takes the trouble to build his own car is also going to
work very hard to make it reflect his idea of artistic beauty. This
applies whether it is an EV, or a hot rod, or a jacked up off-road
pickup truck, or whatever.

But most people aren't artists. Their idea of "beauty" is often seen as
"idiotic" by others. We've all seen amazing examples of this sort of
customization. :-)

> Tesla has the right idea - Americans  buy based on that primitive
> reptilian part of the brain that associates  Size with Power and
> Safety... no matter what people "SAY" they want,  they end up buying
> something taller, bigger, sportier, faster, etc.  than they really need.

Maybe. The Tesla is based on the Lotus Elise, which is a very minor
player in the automotive market. Not one person in a million would buy
an Elise; so sales of the higher-priced Tesla are likely to be even lower.

I think Tesla designed a sports car strictly for its publicity and media
attention value. They only expect to sell a very few cars to collectors,
which will never be driven any significant number of miles.

It's interesting that many other electric car companies have tried this
same route. Most of them never were able to transition from exotic
specialty car into any sort of mass-produced vehicle. I hope Tesla is
more successful in this regard.

> What I hear is a need for a "Model T" for the American Family that is
> an easy to maintain, easy to drive, non-embarrassing alternative to
> being a big-oil addict.

That is an entirely different market. There have also been lots of EV
companies that have pursued this market. Solectria, Soleq, and Jet
Industries are examples that come to mind. But they are all out of
business, too. While they failed in the long run, they did produce
significantly more cars.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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