Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

David Beard
Anyone who searches through my posts could probably get a pretty good idea of what is required for an advanced ev...

Advanced batts from A123 or Equivalent )altairnano..quality chinese lithium iron phosphates (if we can find such a thing)

Lightweight aerodynamic two seater...

styled as and marketed as a sportscar..so the market price can bear the expense of the batts etc....

The ability to live with lower initial margins
to gain market penetration and increase volumes...

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Re: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Peter VanDerWal
Do you have a website that showcases all of the EVs you've built?

> Anyone who searches through my posts could probably get a pretty good idea
> of what is required for an advanced ev...
>
> Advanced batts from A123 or Equivalent )altairnano..quality chinese
> lithium iron phosphates (if we can find such a thing)
>
> Lightweight aerodynamic two seater...
>
> styled as and marketed as a sportscar..so the market price can bear the
> expense of the batts etc....
>
> The ability to live with lower initial margins
> to gain market penetration and increase volumes...
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Cut the cord from your computer. Click to get the latest wireless access
> products.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4t3z0yjRL1D25ESWfWHR54eeqpgBuUNMF1LYmKqUOy2O50o3/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
In reply to this post by David Beard
I've obviously hit a nerve - resulting in posts ranging from "start your
own company" to "just build your own garage one-of-a-kind-marvel".  All
valid comments, but I'm thinking a bit differently about this.

[short political comment re
>>Much more dicey is forcing the automakers to incur costs or risks
against their will.  This is communistic, <<

Yes, but although I agree in principle about the comments of not "forcing"
auto manufacturers to build any particular model, no one should be
deceived into thinking that the auto and oil companies are totally
independent, self sufficient entities without any support from our
government.  I can't think of any major industry that doesn't have safety
regulations, and if pollution or national oil security is not a safety
issue, I don't know what is.  But if despite all these valid reasons to
regulate the auto we  don't tell them what vehicles to produce, we
definitely shouldn't subsidize them in tax subsidies or fighting wars to
protect their oil supplies, etc.  We shouldn't use tax dollars to build
highways, and we should close down the department of motor vehicles.   Let
the industry do all that paperwork and roadbuilding themselves.  If they
want our help, then they should take into consideration our wishes.]

But back to the subject

>>So what CAN we do? Build and drive EVs!
By doing so we prove that they're practical.<<

I disagree - we don't need to 'prove' that they're practical - RAV4
drivers have already done that for over 7 years.   But frankly, I haven't
seen an aftermarket conversion that compares to a factory built (see my
comments below regarding fit and finish).

I do like the idea of choosing the most common (well built) car in America
and creating a kit to convert it (similar to the Popular Science(?)
article on building the first computer.  I think that's too limiting
though - great if you happen to like an old Porsche 911 or whatever, but
I'm pretty picky and sometimes have a hard time finding an ICE vehicle
that was designed up to my safety and performance standards.  For example,
I won't drive a pickup without King Cab (I hate a window right behind my
head in case of rear-ending).  That rules out the S10.

Ideally, if I had Google funds (perhaps someone there will pick up on this
idea) I would start a consortium of small EV car builders and hammer out
some standards & modular  guidelines that would allow component
manufacturers to develop some economy of scale so that individual
converters and small volume manufacturers could avoid paying through the
nose for specialty parts.   GM can(?) afford to design a new taillight for
every year's new model design.   Same for the engine parts (although they
don't).  Smaller manufacturer's cannot do this.  The side benefit would be
lower maintenance and upgrade costs.  Open Standards to the rescue here.
This is how the IBM-Intel PC took the majority of market share (vs.
Commodore, Amiga, Apple, etc).   You could buy the best video card (in
your opinion) the best hard drive, the best RAM, but it would (usually!)
all fit together.

Second, I would design an EV system that would work well together as a
starter vehicle which could be 'upgraded' later to add more range.   So
just because it could only go 50 miles round trip now, later on there
would be the option to upgrade the batteries and make it go 75 or 100, and
who knows, maybe later even further if battery technology improves.  Or,
as some have suggested, add an range extender generator of choice if it is
cheaper.

But each version of the conversion kit or production model would have a
few basics:

1) AC motor with variable regen (tune to taste or vary en route)
2) Body shell at least as safe as the safest cars on the road today -
including air bags
3) Performance (I consider acceleration and deceleration as forms of
maneuvering out of danger equal in value to left and right steering)
4) Reconsider the weight issue.   Yes, for a given motor and set of
batteries lighter is better, but my somewhat naive logic tells me that as
total vehicle weight increases (which necessarily will involve increased
battery weight for equivalent performance), payload and passenger weight
actually DECREASES as a proportion of the total weight.  Yes, it will take
more kWh to get from point A to point B, but since EV's are so much more
efficient than ICE engines, I can live with that in exchange for somewhat
more dignity and safety (I'm the kind of guy who considers volkswagen
beetles to have been "Hitler's Revenge" and I still won't ride in a
Vanagon.)   I also find a 2 seat car limiting, but I could live with that
if it had the other features of a Tesla (and I could sit in it without
bumping my head on the roof).

Any other features I'm forgetting?

>>Anyone could have built an EV1
for a million or two.  What made it a marvel was that they made it
PRODUCIBLE for a few tens of thousands of dollars per extra copy. They
also added the value of their mastery at trimming out cars with amenities.
 Side impact airbags that match the interior decor.  <<

Believe it or not, that kind of stuff matters to non-geeks and propeller
heads.  Although I consider myself a geek, this detail stuff matters to
me.

It's what I think Tesla is doing right, but it shouldn't cost $100k.  I
don't think it's necessary to compromise on stuff that need not be
compromised.  We Californians can't travel any other way for the most part
(except in SF or LA) and our egos are tightly tied to our mode of
transportation.  Especially those with less than solid egos.

Dell

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Toyota Prius Power Split Device acts as a continuously variable transmission (CVT) but with a fixed gear ratio.

Geopilot
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/


      "Toyota Prius - Power Split Device (PSD)

The Toyota Prius is packed with some pretty high-tech stuff, but at the
heart of the Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) is a simple little device called
the Power Split Device, or PSD. The PSD is a planetary gear set that
removes the need for a traditional stepped gearbox and transmission
components, and also the familiar rev-lurch-rev-lurch of acceleration in
an ordinary gas powered car. It acts as a continuously variable
transmission (CVT) but with a fixed gear ratio."

I refrained from quoting the whole article as the list admin requests
but the rest of the long article elaborates much more.

*****The most interesting thing on the page is the java model of the
device which lets you vary the motors speed and see the effect on car
speed, rpms and other aspects. it actually models the planetary gears
going around in 2d.



>  

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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

EVDL Administrator
The Toyota PSD, the two motor/generators, and the control computer
essentially form an electrical torque converter.  Its main purpose is to
ameliorate the severe low end torque limitations of the Prius's more-
efficient engine.  I'm no engineer, but I can't see any practical
application for it in an EV.

The fact that a Prius can run a mile or two on battery power is really just
a side effect of the drive system.  It was not designed to be a true hybrid,
though it can be hacked into a mediocre one with effort.  (I expect that
Toyota will find a way to eliminate that hackability in the next generation
of the car.)

Now, if one wanted to make a Prius into a BEV, he'd be starting with a
pretty light (for its size) and aerodynamic glider.  That could work rather
nicely.

But it would be far from trivial.  The Toyota drive system is so tightly
integrated that I suspect one would pretty much have to rip it all out and
replace everything right up to the CV joints.  

Good luck getting the hvac, power steering, ABS, and all the rest to work.  
All the computers talk to each other and you'd probably have to somehow
simulate the signals they expect from the engine computer.  You might end up
having to replace all these systems, too.  

At that point, might as well just get a Sunrise kit. They'd probably be
available for sale by the time you finally got the Prius converted.  ;-)

Me?  Cynical?  Naaaaah.  ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

Tom Gocze
Hi David,
I agree with what you said, up to a point and don't want to fly way  
OT, BUT...
I recall Cor disconnected the injectors on his first generation Prius  
and ran it as a pure EV for a while.
Granted, not a glowing example, but an EV nonetheless.

Now, no one in their right mind (takers, anyone???) would sacrifice a  
functioning Prius for such an enterprise,
but it is so tempting to start screwing about with one.

As the original Priuses get older and less expensive, I know someone  
on this list will be trying this. It is too tempting
not to, given the access to existing drivetrains with (somewhat  
limited) motors.

They are even getting cheap enough for me to fool with them. Some of  
us have pissed away more than the cost of an attempt on
our EVs.

An inveterate pi*ser,
Tom in Maine

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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by design2
Dell,

Good for you to put forth some ideas.  Now, some questions.

1. there are a number of conversion kits on the market.  What would make
your standardization idea produce kits that are any different, in terms of
being able to swap in better batteries in the future, swapping in a better
controller or inverter, etc?

2 (sort of a correlary), the interfacing of components for an EV is not as
complicated as for computers.  It seems to me that there is already sort of
a defacto standard - for example, you hook the battery negative and
positives to your contactors and controller in the same way regardless of
what batteries you are using.  Yes, apparently AC inverters need to be
configured to work with particular motors, so perhaps there's room for some
standards there.  But, in general, standards for what things do you see
making a big difference?

3. will standards help if people want to fit components into a wide range of
vehicles?  Space available for wheel motors, transaxle mounted motors, etc,
varies considerably from car to car, so how would the standard help?  Same
for battery packs.  Maybe controllers are not so difficult.  Mounting
instruments on the dash? Now, if one could get the auto manufactures to
adhere to certain spacing requirements in the chassis design, this would be
a different world!

So, conceptually, I (and presumably most would agree) like the idea of
creating some standards that somehow make economy of scale possible for EV
parts.  I just am not seeing how to do this.  I hope you have something good
up your sleeve.

Peri

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 28 March, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened
at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?


> I've obviously hit a nerve - resulting in posts ranging from "start your
> own company" to "just build your own garage one-of-a-kind-marvel".  All
> valid comments, but I'm thinking a bit differently about this.
>
> [short political comment re
>>>Much more dicey is forcing the automakers to incur costs or risks
> against their will.  This is communistic, <<
>
> Yes, but although I agree in principle about the comments of not "forcing"
> auto manufacturers to build any particular model, no one should be
> deceived into thinking that the auto and oil companies are totally
> independent, self sufficient entities without any support from our
> government.  I can't think of any major industry that doesn't have safety
> regulations, and if pollution or national oil security is not a safety
> issue, I don't know what is.  But if despite all these valid reasons to
> regulate the auto we  don't tell them what vehicles to produce, we
> definitely shouldn't subsidize them in tax subsidies or fighting wars to
> protect their oil supplies, etc.  We shouldn't use tax dollars to build
> highways, and we should close down the department of motor vehicles.   Let
> the industry do all that paperwork and roadbuilding themselves.  If they
> want our help, then they should take into consideration our wishes.]
>
> But back to the subject
>
>>>So what CAN we do? Build and drive EVs!
> By doing so we prove that they're practical.<<
>
> I disagree - we don't need to 'prove' that they're practical - RAV4
> drivers have already done that for over 7 years.   But frankly, I haven't
> seen an aftermarket conversion that compares to a factory built (see my
> comments below regarding fit and finish).
>
> I do like the idea of choosing the most common (well built) car in America
> and creating a kit to convert it (similar to the Popular Science(?)
> article on building the first computer.  I think that's too limiting
> though - great if you happen to like an old Porsche 911 or whatever, but
> I'm pretty picky and sometimes have a hard time finding an ICE vehicle
> that was designed up to my safety and performance standards.  For example,
> I won't drive a pickup without King Cab (I hate a window right behind my
> head in case of rear-ending).  That rules out the S10.
>
> Ideally, if I had Google funds (perhaps someone there will pick up on this
> idea) I would start a consortium of small EV car builders and hammer out
> some standards & modular  guidelines that would allow component
> manufacturers to develop some economy of scale so that individual
> converters and small volume manufacturers could avoid paying through the
> nose for specialty parts.   GM can(?) afford to design a new taillight for
> every year's new model design.   Same for the engine parts (although they
> don't).  Smaller manufacturer's cannot do this.  The side benefit would be
> lower maintenance and upgrade costs.  Open Standards to the rescue here.
> This is how the IBM-Intel PC took the majority of market share (vs.
> Commodore, Amiga, Apple, etc).   You could buy the best video card (in
> your opinion) the best hard drive, the best RAM, but it would (usually!)
> all fit together.
>
> Second, I would design an EV system that would work well together as a
> starter vehicle which could be 'upgraded' later to add more range.   So
> just because it could only go 50 miles round trip now, later on there
> would be the option to upgrade the batteries and make it go 75 or 100, and
> who knows, maybe later even further if battery technology improves.  Or,
> as some have suggested, add an range extender generator of choice if it is
> cheaper.
>
> But each version of the conversion kit or production model would have a
> few basics:
>
> 1) AC motor with variable regen (tune to taste or vary en route)
> 2) Body shell at least as safe as the safest cars on the road today -
> including air bags
> 3) Performance (I consider acceleration and deceleration as forms of
> maneuvering out of danger equal in value to left and right steering)
> 4) Reconsider the weight issue.   Yes, for a given motor and set of
> batteries lighter is better, but my somewhat naive logic tells me that as
> total vehicle weight increases (which necessarily will involve increased
> battery weight for equivalent performance), payload and passenger weight
> actually DECREASES as a proportion of the total weight.  Yes, it will take
> more kWh to get from point A to point B, but since EV's are so much more
> efficient than ICE engines, I can live with that in exchange for somewhat
> more dignity and safety (I'm the kind of guy who considers volkswagen
> beetles to have been "Hitler's Revenge" and I still won't ride in a
> Vanagon.)   I also find a 2 seat car limiting, but I could live with that
> if it had the other features of a Tesla (and I could sit in it without
> bumping my head on the roof).
>
> Any other features I'm forgetting?
>
>>>Anyone could have built an EV1
> for a million or two.  What made it a marvel was that they made it
> PRODUCIBLE for a few tens of thousands of dollars per extra copy. They
> also added the value of their mastery at trimming out cars with amenities.
> Side impact airbags that match the interior decor.  <<
>
> Believe it or not, that kind of stuff matters to non-geeks and propeller
> heads.  Although I consider myself a geek, this detail stuff matters to
> me.
>
> It's what I think Tesla is doing right, but it shouldn't cost $100k.  I
> don't think it's necessary to compromise on stuff that need not be
> compromised.  We Californians can't travel any other way for the most part
> (except in SF or LA) and our egos are tightly tied to our mode of
> transportation.  Especially those with less than solid egos.
>
> Dell
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by design2
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 10:34 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
>   For example,
>  I won't drive a pickup without King Cab (I hate a window right behind my
>  head in case of rear-ending).  That rules out the S10.
[snip]

Don't forget about the extended cab S10. It is the "King Cab" of the
S10. Depending on year it may have a third door. I believe 1997 was
the first year for the 3rd door but you lose a jump seat.

--
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Tom Gocze
On 29 Mar 2008 at 23:00, tomgocze wrote:

> I recall Cor disconnected the injectors on his first generation
> Prius  and ran it as a pure EV for a while. Granted, not a glowing
> example, but an EV nonetheless.
>
> Now, no one in their right mind (takers, anyone???) would sacrifice a
> functioning Prius for such an enterprise, but it is so tempting to start
> screwing about with one.

Well, you can chug an ICE along for a few hundred feet on its starter, too,
but that doesn't make it a useful EV!    ;-)

Now, the motor / generators in a Prius are an order of magnitude more
durable and efficient than an ICE's starter.  However, they're still
designed for intermittent duty at limited speeds (I think the max is 6000
rpm, but I could be remembering wrong).  What's more, its entire drive train
is set up to work the ICE and motors together.  

However, far be it from me to inhibit experiementation!  I would love to see
it.  The hurdles would include :

Find a way to overcool the motors so they can handle continuous operation

Upgrade their bearings to they can run the 10000+ RPM required by the car's
planetary gearbox for highway speeds without the engine turning

Dig into the computers, reverse-engineer the code, and rewrite it to where
the car can become a TRUE hybrid.  

For example, instead of keeping the battery between 40% and 80% SOC, the
battery computer would have to be persuaded let you deplete it to perhaps
20%, then leave it there (awaiting a plug-in charge) unless you commanded it
to bring the SOC up using the ICE.  Because the MGs are always operating
(they provide the variable ratio effect), I think the battery would still
have to be used while motoring on ICE, even if it were kept at a low SOC.  
Hmmm.  Lots of code hacking.

I'm sure there would be many additional details, but that's plenty to start
with. ;-)

AFAIK, the current hardware-hacked plug-in versions all trick the computers,
and they still can only run at something like 35mph or so in pure EV mode.  
Above that, the engine has to start or at least turn so the motors don't
over-rev, one of the limitations of the planetary gearbox.  This hack also
works only on the 2004 and later cars.

Imagine being able to drive 40 miles in pure EV mode at highway speeds, then
switching to relatively clean ICE operation for the rest of your trip.  And
then think about the number of Prii out there, including those prior to the
2004 model year, just ripe for such surgery.  The mind boggles.

Not that I have anything CLOSE to the engineering skills necessary to do
this, of course.  But I would love to see you or someone else make it
happen.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

Zeke Yewdall
>  Now, the motor / generators in a Prius are an order of magnitude more
>  durable and efficient than an ICE's starter.  However, they're still
>  designed for intermittent duty at limited speeds (I think the max is 6000
>  rpm, but I could be remembering wrong).  What's more, its entire drive train
>  is set up to work the ICE and motors together.

What if you put a Warp9 in place of the ICE, and left the existing
motor there?  Independent battery bank for the DC drive system.   It
would still be a control nightmare, but at least maybe you could trick
the existing computer into thinking that the engine was still there?

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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Ryan Stotts
In reply to this post by design2
The car aspect of all this is the easy part.  It's the details in the
EV components that is more of a challenge.  What batteries(Lithium?)?
Which batteries(What brand?)?  What about the BMS?  What about the
assembly of the pack?  Will you only have a few large batteries or
thousands of smaller ones?  How are you going to connect together,
mount, and package them?

What about the motor?  Existing brushed DC motor or a non existent AC
motor?  Off the shelf controller?  Non existent inverter(racing type)?
 Can you build a controller?  Have you looked at chargers?  Do you
want a bigger charger?  What size power outlet do you have in your
garage for this larger charger?

Spec out the prices on just the components to hand build all that
stuff.  The China made lithium alone is enough to break the bank.
I've been into this subject for a few years now and there is just no
low cost way to go about it.  Ford and GM can get batteries, motors,
and controllers all mass produced and get volume price breaks.  Right
now everything is so high end, rare, exclusive, limited, niche, low
volume, low demand, hand built, high margin, we just can't get a
break.  We want things that don't even currently exist.  We want
things to be low cost that currently cost a lot just to build.  That's
just for the components.  Not to mention the time to assemble, test,
and the profit margin to be able to afford to make more.  The fact of
the matter is; we just don't make enough income in our current
occupations to be able to play with or afford any of this neat stuff.
Buy lottery tickets and hope for the best.

Chargers:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/

AC stuff, look at the power, look at the price:
http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm


Good luck.

Dreaming is easy.  Making lots of money isn't.  Although if you are
good enough to be a professional athlete or talented enough to be an
entertainer or musician; they seem to make all the big money these
days.

Who's got a fast electric?  Wayland, Berube, Dube....  Anyone else
running numbers like that?

Yeah, I could get a 6.7" motor, some 6V batteries and a Curtis; but
that won't get me to work in the morning(25 miles one way all
highway(70+mph), no recharging at work, plus miles going to and from
lunch)..  Even if it could, it's not enough to impress, convince, or
show the merits of EV's and how they make so much sense that everyone
in the world should be driving something like I'm driving.  They will
ask how fast is it, how far does it go, how much did it cost?  Then
decide if it's worth it or not.  The pollution aspect and not buying
fuel are the two things going for it.  And no one except
environmentalist or penny pincher's cares about exhaust emissions and
$3/gal fuel.  $4/gal diesel only bothers semi truck drivers because of
their 8mpg or less trucks.  Until Ford and GM ect are pumping out 200
mile+ range EV's at current car prices..

An electric Prius should absolutely be available.   It's an outrage
that it is not.  A plugin lithium Prius should absolutely be available
for sale.  It's an outrage RAV4 EV's are not available.  They still
make the RAV4!

When the GM volt comes out, it has the potential to shake things up.
When it was first being introduced, they showed computer renderings of
an all electric version.

Ford should have available plugin Escapes.  The could make an electric
Escape that would have more range(lithium), then the RAV4 EV did!

Are the car companies scared or ignorant?  Whatever it is, they are
definitely risk adverse.  Toyota is one of the most conservative car
companies in existence.  Terrified and petrified of change.

It would seem to me that 99.99% of the world population thinks, feels,
and is under the impression that all lithium is the same and since
Sony had a battery fire, all lithium is especially flammable in their
minds.  Especially Honda and Toyota who are scared to the point they
are shaking at the thought of having lithium anything in their
vehicles.  It will take an out right oil shortage to force them to
change and accept EV's.

Someone on another site posted the following and I feel it's worth
mentioning again:

"Using electricity to charge a BEV, the combined efficiency of charger
and battery and electric motor is about 76%.
Using electricity to electrolyze water, cryochill the H2 to liquefy
it, then burning it in an IC engine car, the combined efficiency is
about 6%.

To make matters worse, the Hydrogen 7 with its big V12 engine gets
horrible fuel economy, only 15 mpg running on petrol, 4 mpg running on
liquid H2."

Hydrogen just flat makes no sense anyway anyone looks at it.  Next
time anyone mentions the pollution aspects of EV's, mention the exact
same conditions(or more) exist with the production of hydrogen and
hydrogen powered vehicles.  What about how either of those compares to
our current pollution machines?

The price of electricity to recharge your battery pack?  The price of
a gallon or pound of hydrogen to fill that 10,000 psi tank you have in
your cars trunk?  What kind of mpg are you getting ICE or fuel cell?
Price of that platinum fuel cell and how long does it last?  What type
of power output from it?  I've never been impressed by the power
output of any fuel cell.

Yeah, you can make hydrogen at how using water.  But they you must
compress it to 10,000 psi to store it in your 10,000 psi storage tank.
 So now you need two of those tanks(do they last forever?).  What's
your electric bill going to be running that electrolysis machine(how
much does one of those cost?), and that high pressure pump?

Existing technology exists to do what we need and do it better without
polluting doing it.  Speaking of course directly of a car owner and
the act of buying and burning fuel vs's not.  But you all have known
and heard all this since the 1970's or before; so I don't know why I'm
saying it again.  I guess cause it's Sunday and I'm bored.  Unrealized
potential, and latent energy and potential.  Now I'm off to write
another rant on a different idea and subject on another site. ;)

Regards

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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
Peri, you raised several good but closely related questions, which I have
excerpted and replied to below.

>>What would make your standardization idea produce kits that are any
different, in terms of being able to swap in better batteries in the
future, swapping in a better controller or inverter, etc?...But, in
general, standards for what things do you see making a big
difference?....will standards help if people want to fit components into
a wide range of
vehicles? <<

Basically it sounds like you are asking "What is the real world benefit of
standards in EV components?"

Frankly, I'm not sure I know yet.   I'm not sure whether I'm even talking
about kits.  Here are some of my thoughts:

1)  Using the computer industry again as an analogy, the computer platform
really took off when there were significant open standards which could be
leveraged by entrepreneurs.  One fairly recent example was college student
Michael Dell assembling computers in his appartment's bathtub (to hide
from his parents) based on carefully chosen components which worked
together and started the disruptive technology company Dell Computers (no
relation to me btw unfortunately)

2)  I'm don't have an EV, but I have checked in about every 5 years or so
to see how things have progressed with the community.  It is almost always
the same.

A (relatively small) cross section of society where well above average
Engineering skills, Environmental & Economic interests, and Disposable
income combine in an individual who goes on to become a
'do-it-yourselfer'.

Seems we're fairly stuck at the home hobbiest phase, and the auto and oil
industries are content (for the most part) to remain the 'IBM mainframe'
providers of computers while the potential market for BEV's and PHEV's has
been ignored for the most part to date (at least from a commercially
available aspect).

3) I will answer your question with a question:  What does the group think
will be the most important topics to standardize both for the individual
convertor,  kit car manufacturer, and the the low volume and medium volume
manufacturers?  Let me suggest some examples of what I am suggesting just
as ideas.

a) Some will be in the form of a database (predetermined, laws of physics
type factual data outlining the status quo or current products) Don't know
how much of this is in SGML format already.

b) Some will be in the form of industry best manufacturing guidelines, to
which both component and vehicle manufacturers could contribute.

Examples:

*Standard means of reporting power in/out (torque, hp, kWh, RPM etc) for
all applicable devices (DC & AC motors, controllers, batteries, brakes,
drivelines)

*Compatibility & monitoring interfaces (USB, bluetooth, etc - related to
example above)

*Battery life, care, etc (database of current model manufacturers + form
factor standards for future, to include control modules, etc - recharge
times and amperage for maximal life, discharge rates, thermal protection,
etc).

*Body frame or shell coalition to share costs of developing a DOT
certified chassis (or even monocoque body?) frame (similar to the Chevy
Flex design bed) upon which various body types could be added - I see
extraordinary potential in this approach for actually creating a vehicle
with more flexibility than an ICE - interchangeable body parts to change
from sedan to truck or van back etc... or even different body shape.  
Modularize the design process in other words to allow designers with some
TASTE to develop beautiful cars, let the techies develop efficient drive
trains, and the best design/efficiency combo will win by Darwinian design.

Just some vastly oversimplified ideas - hopefully not limiting anyone's
imagination.

Dell


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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

design2
In reply to this post by Ryan Stotts
>>The car aspect of all this is the easy part.  It's the details in the EV
components that is more of a challenge. <<

>>Unrealized potential, and latent energy and potential. <<

I've been interested in EV's long enough to know I don't want to build a
'one-off' conversion that just barely works if you tweak every little
component right and hold your mouth right and hope the manufacturer of the
crucial widget controller doesn't go out of business.

I'm suggesting we create a system or process that makes it more likely for
all this unrealized potential to be realized.  The alternative is to lose
some pretty impressive opportunity costs to the environment and the
nation.

Rather than ranting and preaching to the choir, I'm hoping that some
knowledgable experts will recognize one or two thoughts that get them to
thinking about ways to exploit the opportunities that exist in the real
world.

best,

Dell


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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Jack Murray
The reality is a small business can prosper by filling
a small niche that the "big boys" won't bother with.
Building on that success and cash-flow you can expand
into larger areas.
Trying to build a car to compete with the billion
dollar car companies is suicide, and the fact they are
now talking about EV's and actually delivering hybrids
means things are going to get real tough for EV
startups.

The primary problem with the EV is the range, and
range is limited by batteries and weight.  This isn't
going to change in the immediate future.  
There are two clear solutions, one is build a small
car for limited range, and second to build a hybrid
that can use gas to extend the range.

The small car needs to be somthing new, not much
exists today to convert. 3-wheels looks appropriate. A
startup with significant capital might try this, you
need a unique design the big boys can't just copy and
try to get early recognition as a leader.  Time is
against you.

Hybrid approach, take an older SUV, replace the old
worn-out engine with a smaller new one, and add a lot
of batteries and electric drive.
The big boys only sell new cars, so this is something
a small business might do.  A lot of technical
hurdles, but something that looks hard is where
opportunity exists.

Jack

--- [hidden email] wrote:

> >>The car aspect of all this is the easy part.  It's
> the details in the EV
> components that is more of a challenge. <<
>
> >>Unrealized potential, and latent energy and
> potential. <<
>
> I've been interested in EV's long enough to know I
> don't want to build a
> 'one-off' conversion that just barely works if you
> tweak every little
> component right and hold your mouth right and hope
> the manufacturer of the
> crucial widget controller doesn't go out of
> business.
>
> I'm suggesting we create a system or process that
> makes it more likely for
> all this unrealized potential to be realized.  The
> alternative is to lose
> some pretty impressive opportunity costs to the
> environment and the
> nation.
>
> Rather than ranting and preaching to the choir, I'm
> hoping that some
> knowledgable experts will recognize one or two
> thoughts that get them to
> thinking about ways to exploit the opportunities
> that exist in the real
> world.
>
> best,
>
> Dell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

tigerbody
In reply to this post by Zeke Yewdall
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Zeke Yewdall <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >  Now, the motor / generators in a Prius are an order of magnitude more
> >  durable and efficient than an ICE's starter.  However, they're still
> >  designed for intermittent duty at limited speeds (I think the max is
> 6000
> >  rpm, but I could be remembering wrong).  What's more, its entire drive
> train
> >  is set up to work the ICE and motors together.
>
> What if you put a Warp9 in place of the ICE, and left the existing
> motor there?


I wish it was that simple....

The ICE and everything is tied together.....

making it very difficult for the home mechanic to service....



> Independent battery bank for the DC drive system.   It
> would still be a control nightmare, but at least maybe you could trick
> the existing computer into thinking that the engine was still there?
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles
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Re: Toyota Prius Power Split Device ...

David Beard
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
You could jsut do away with all the prius stuff and replace it with.....

the original>>>>

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/wheel.htm
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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by design2
On 30 Mar 2008 at 17:03, [hidden email] wrote:

> I've been interested in EV's long enough to know I don't want to build a
> 'one-off' conversion that just barely works if you tweak every little
> component right and hold your mouth right and hope the manufacturer of the
> crucial widget controller doesn't go out of business.

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding what you're saying here,
so I apologize if this makes zero sense.   But if I read this correctly,
you're saying that conversions tend to be flaky - and I don't think that's
an accurate impression.

I suppose it's possible for anybody to throw together a hack job.  But other
than the hassles of figuring out how to persuade modern vehicle computers
that they should let you drive the car without an ICE under the hood,
conversion today has become a pretty straightforward task.  

It's very different from what it was 40 years ago.  Then it was aircraft
generators, contactor controllers, and homemade couplers (sometimes made of
plywood).  Today you can buy almost everything you need to do a conversion
custom-made and ready to bolt up.  Transmission couplers, truly fine and
highly reliable controllers, and robust motors are all readily available
(though there might be a waiting list).  

For a really easy way to convert successfully, pick an S10, Geo Metro, older
VW Rabbit or Porsche for your glider, and buy a kit.  The average shadetree
mechanic should be able to do a conversion using an Electro Automotive or
Canadian EV kit and adding just a bit of basic electrical knowledge.  (I'm
sure there are other kits I don't know about, too.)

While there are always bugs to iron out, I just don't think it's accurate to
say that EV conversions are as crude as the above description suggests.

And there's one thing really crucial about conversion - you can actually DO
it, while still living a relatively normal life. Unless you already own an
auto manufacturing concern, if you start by designing the perfect vehicle,
it might easily be 5, 10 or 20 years before you're in the driver's seat.  

Remember what Lee Hart says - the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Again, my apologies if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Starting an EV car company - was: OK, so what happened at the CARB meeting and what does itme an for EVs?

Tom Parker-12
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 08:52 -0700, Peri Hartman wrote:
> But, in general, standards for what things do you see
> making a big difference?

As I see it, the big ones requiring standardisation is the
controller-BMS, charger-BMS and fuel gauge-BMS relationships.

The BMS must be able to tell the charger to slow down, switch modes or
turn off.

The BMS must be able to tell the controller to reduce or switch off
regen & motoring current.

The BMS should be able to provide suitable information for the "fuel
gauge".

A lessor requirement is that the controller must accept the voltage &
maximum current characteristics of the battery. This shouldn't be too
difficult to meet if your battery comes in small enough modules and can
supply as much current as the previous battery. Since changing the
battery is rare, configuring the controller using it's configuration
tools rather than an automatically would be acceptable.

I believe there some of the 1990's OEM cars used 8v lead batteries which
are difficult to obtain. The BMS needs some trickery to accept an
alternative battery, and the car won't work at all if the BMS isn't
happy.

It's probably necessary to tie the BMS tightly to the battery, but use
an open interface between the it and rest of the system.

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Re: Starting an EV car company

Mike Brown-15
In reply to this post by design2

>I've been interested in EV's long enough to know I don't want to build a
>'one-off' conversion that just barely works if you tweak every little
>component right and hold your mouth right and hope the manufacturer of the
>crucial widget controller doesn't go out of business.

Most of our customers build one-off conversions.  They don't "just
barely work" - they WORK, if you just follow directions.  Sure, if
you are going to scrounge used or surplus components from six
different sources, or adapt inappropriate parts like forklift motors
and aircraft generators, and use amateur-built components
(controllers, chargers, etc.) for the rest, THEN you end up with
something like you described.  But if you use mainstream components
from established manufacturers and follow the directions for
installation, you will have a well-performing conversion, even if it
is a one-off.


Mike Brown
Electro Automotive, POB 1113, Felton, CA  95018-1113 Phone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com  email [hidden email]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979



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Plugin Hybrid Miles per Gallon

Tom Shay
I wonder how miles per gallon is be calculated for a
plugin hybrid?  Stories about plugin hybrids cite a variety
of mpg claims but none that I've read shed any light on how
the mpg was calculated.

With a plugin hybrid it's possible to go for many months and
thousands of miles without starting the IC engine.  A driver
could drive 10,000 miles on electricity alone, put 0.1 gallon
in the fuel tank and calculate 100,000 mpg.  The 0.1 gallon
of fuel is necessary to avoid the division by zero problem.

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