Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Steven Lough
Here is a LINK right to PBS NOVA... Wednesdays episode.  The EV stuff
starts in Jay Leno's Garage, at about the 4 minute mark.
But the whole hour is great, along with last weeks and the week before that.

Where did they dig up making carbon-nano tubes out of cooking down
Chicken Feathers, for a method of low pressure H2 storage...   Then near
the end there was a man made photo-synthesis exhibit, where H2 is
bubbling of the surface of the experiment...    But HAY !   I still call
them fool cells.... sorry...

http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299

On 2/3/11 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>    16. Re: KillaCycle on: NOVA, Feb 2nd (Dan Baker)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
Steven S Lough
President: Seattle EV Associatin
206 524 1351
WEB: www.seattleeva.org

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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

NeilBlanchard
Hi Steven,

> Here is a LINK right to PBS NOVA... Wednesdays episode.  The EV stuff
> starts in Jay Leno's Garage, at about the 4 minute mark.
> But the whole hour is great, along with last weeks and the week before that.
>
> Where did they dig up making carbon-nano tubes out of cooking down
> Chicken Feathers, for a method of low pressure H2 storage...   Then near
> the end there was a man made photo-synthesis exhibit, where H2 is
> bubbling of the surface of the experiment...    But HAY !   I still call
> them fool cells.... sorry...
>
> http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299

I heard about the chicken feathers about a year and a half ago on Science Friday:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200906261
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/chicken-feathers.html
http://ecomodder.com/blog/chicken-feathers-hydrogen-storage-wind-power/

They can also make high quality carbon fiber material from chicken feathers -- pretty low cost.  We've got millions of tons of chicken feathers.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Willie McKemie
On Fri, Feb 04, 2011 at 07:38:13AM -0500, Neil Blanchard wrote:

> > http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299
>
> I heard about the chicken feathers about a year and a half ago on Science Friday:
>
> http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200906261
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/chicken-feathers.html
> http://ecomodder.com/blog/chicken-feathers-hydrogen-storage-wind-power/
>
> They can also make high quality carbon fiber material from chicken feathers -- pretty low cost.  We've got millions of tons of chicken feathers.

Nova reported that chicken feathers are waste.  Not so, they are
certainly a by-product but none go to waste.  Chicken feather meal is
sold and used for both as a feed component and for organic fertilizer.  
Worth about $400/ton last time I looked.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  145 days  6 hours 31 minutes

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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Steven Lough
They stated that 50% of the electrical energy is lost before it
reaches a house. That sounds a little high. I thought that of all the
losses, 50% of it happens in the transmission. Not that 50% is lost.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Steven Lough <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is a LINK right to PBS NOVA... Wednesdays episode.  The EV stuff
> starts in Jay Leno's Garage, at about the 4 minute mark.
> But the whole hour is great, along with last weeks and the week before that.
>
> Where did they dig up making carbon-nano tubes out of cooking down
> Chicken Feathers, for a method of low pressure H2 storage...   Then near
> the end there was a man made photo-synthesis exhibit, where H2 is
> bubbling of the surface of the experiment...    But HAY !   I still call
> them fool cells.... sorry...
>
> http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299
>
> On 2/3/11 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>    16. Re: KillaCycle on: NOVA, Feb 2nd (Dan Baker)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> --
> Steven S Lough
> President: Seattle EV Associatin
> 206 524 1351
> WEB: www.seattleeva.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Bill Dube
The distribution grid is about 94% efficient:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricity_faqs.asp#electric_rates2

It is safe to say "over 90%" efficient and no one can argue with that.





At 05:45 PM 2/4/2011, you wrote:

>They stated that 50% of the electrical energy is lost before it
>reaches a house. That sounds a little high. I thought that of all the
>losses, 50% of it happens in the transmission. Not that 50% is lost.
>
>On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Steven Lough <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Here is a LINK right to PBS NOVA... Wednesdays episode.  The EV stuff
> > starts in Jay Leno's Garage, at about the 4 minute mark.
> > But the whole hour is great, along with last weeks and the week
> before that.
> >
> > Where did they dig up making carbon-nano tubes out of cooking down
> > Chicken Feathers, for a method of low pressure H2 storage...   Then near
> > the end there was a man made photo-synthesis exhibit, where H2 is
> > bubbling of the surface of the experiment...    But HAY !   I still call
> > them fool cells.... sorry...
> >
> > http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299
> >
> > On 2/3/11 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>    16. Re: KillaCycle on: NOVA, Feb 2nd (Dan Baker)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steven S Lough
> > President: Seattle EV Associatin
> > 206 524 1351
> > WEB: www.seattleeva.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>--
>David D. Nelson
>http://evalbum.com/1328
>
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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

David Nelson-5
Thanks, Bill. That is a great link.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The distribution grid is about 94% efficient:
> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricity_faqs.asp#electric_rates2
>
> It is safe to say "over 90%" efficient and no one can argue with that.
>
>
>
>
>
> At 05:45 PM 2/4/2011, you wrote:
>>They stated that 50% of the electrical energy is lost before it
>>reaches a house. That sounds a little high. I thought that of all the
>>losses, 50% of it happens in the transmission. Not that 50% is lost.
>>
>>On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Steven Lough <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Here is a LINK right to PBS NOVA... Wednesdays episode.  The EV stuff
>> > starts in Jay Leno's Garage, at about the 4 minute mark.
>> > But the whole hour is great, along with last weeks and the week
>> before that.
>> >
>> > Where did they dig up making carbon-nano tubes out of cooking down
>> > Chicken Feathers, for a method of low pressure H2 storage...   Then near
>> > the end there was a man made photo-synthesis exhibit, where H2 is
>> > bubbling of the surface of the experiment...    But HAY !   I still call
>> > them fool cells.... sorry...
>> >
>> > http://video.pbs.org/video/1768954299
>> >
>> > On 2/3/11 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> >>    16. Re: KillaCycle on: NOVA, Feb 2nd (Dan Baker)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Steven S Lough
>> > President: Seattle EV Associatin
>> > 206 524 1351
>> > WEB: www.seattleeva.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>David D. Nelson
>>http://evalbum.com/1328
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>
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>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
Hello,

> They stated that 50% of the electrical energy is lost before it
> reaches a house. That sounds a little high. I thought that of all the
> losses, 50% of it happens in the transmission. Not that 50% is lost.

I think the average transmission losses in the USA is under 8%.  It is generation where most of the energy is lost.  Old coal power plants are say 30% efficient, and natural gas is about 40%.  If they use some sort of cogeneration, then modern gas plants can be 60-80%?

It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than it does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term; unless they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a byproduct of making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw material is for making chlorine.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

SLPinfo.org
Neil,

The NOVA show the other night included an interview with a guy who generates
hydrogen (from water) using electricity from a large bank of solar panels.
He stores the hydrogen in several 10,000 gallon propane tanks.  He then uses
the hydrogen in fuel cells to power his house.  The water "emissions" from
the fuel cells is recycled back into the system to make more hydrogen.  The
idea is that he has 24/7 365 day power that (at least indirectly) is from
the sun and it's a closed system. They didn't say how much it cost him to
set it up or how much land he has available to him for the solar arrays.

One could imagine making hydrogen for your fuel cell vehicle that way or
even using wind generators. On board storage of the hydrogen (with the
energy necessary to compress it enough to fit into an onboard tank) would
still be an issue.  Of course maybe the "chicken feathers" approach might
help with that.

- Peter Flipsen Jr



> It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than it
> does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term; unless
> they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a byproduct of
> making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw material is for
> making chlorine.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
Hi, Neil,
     Generally Chlorine is made from Sodium-chloride or common table salt
sometimes from Calcium-chloride which is sea salt or "Rock" salt.

Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
       It ended because they started using their Brains !
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > They stated that 50% of the electrical energy is lost before it
> > reaches a house. That sounds a little high. I thought that of all the
> > losses, 50% of it happens in the transmission. Not that 50% is lost.
>
> I think the average transmission losses in the USA is under 8%.  It is
> generation where most of the energy is lost.  Old coal power plants are say
> 30% efficient, and natural gas is about 40%.  If they use some sort of
> cogeneration, then modern gas plants can be 60-80%?
>
> It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than it
> does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term; unless
> they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a byproduct of
> making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw material is for
> making chlorine.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by SLPinfo.org
Using good electricity to generate Hydrogen only to use it to generate
electricity in fool cells (at more than 50% energy loss) which are not
only horrendous expensive and need regular maintenance and.... (fill out
the laundry list of drawbacks)
Is he getting those fuel cells for free from the manufacturer or did he
use a grant?
I cannot imagine a way that it will be a better solution than battery
storage...
Certainly he loses a lot more energy along the way, so he was either
mis-informed or
he has too much money or time, meaning that there must be a reason that
he is
showing off Hydrogen, even while it is so inefficient and has so many
other drawbacks,
I did not read or see the story, so I am interested in the story behind
the story....

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of SLPinfo.org
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Neil,

The NOVA show the other night included an interview with a guy who
generates hydrogen (from water) using electricity from a large bank of
solar panels.
He stores the hydrogen in several 10,000 gallon propane tanks.  He then
uses the hydrogen in fuel cells to power his house.  The water
"emissions" from the fuel cells is recycled back into the system to make
more hydrogen.  The idea is that he has 24/7 365 day power that (at
least indirectly) is from the sun and it's a closed system. They didn't
say how much it cost him to set it up or how much land he has available
to him for the solar arrays.

One could imagine making hydrogen for your fuel cell vehicle that way or
even using wind generators. On board storage of the hydrogen (with the
energy necessary to compress it enough to fit into an onboard tank)
would still be an issue.  Of course maybe the "chicken feathers"
approach might help with that.

- Peter Flipsen Jr



> It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than
> it does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term;

> unless they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a
> byproduct of making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw
> material is for making chlorine.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Peri Hartman
Or, for that matter, just running the electricty back to the grid.  That's
even easier than batteries.  Maybe more efficient, too.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: 05 February, 2011 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Using good electricity to generate Hydrogen only to use it to generate
electricity in fool cells (at more than 50% energy loss) which are not only
horrendous expensive and need regular maintenance and.... (fill out the
laundry list of drawbacks) Is he getting those fuel cells for free from the
manufacturer or did he use a grant?
I cannot imagine a way that it will be a better solution than battery
storage...
Certainly he loses a lot more energy along the way, so he was either
mis-informed or he has too much money or time, meaning that there must be a
reason that he is showing off Hydrogen, even while it is so inefficient and
has so many other drawbacks, I did not read or see the story, so I am
interested in the story behind the story....

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of SLPinfo.org
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Neil,

The NOVA show the other night included an interview with a guy who generates
hydrogen (from water) using electricity from a large bank of solar panels.
He stores the hydrogen in several 10,000 gallon propane tanks.  He then uses
the hydrogen in fuel cells to power his house.  The water "emissions" from
the fuel cells is recycled back into the system to make more hydrogen.  The
idea is that he has 24/7 365 day power that (at least indirectly) is from
the sun and it's a closed system. They didn't say how much it cost him to
set it up or how much land he has available to him for the solar arrays.

One could imagine making hydrogen for your fuel cell vehicle that way or
even using wind generators. On board storage of the hydrogen (with the
energy necessary to compress it enough to fit into an onboard tank) would
still be an issue.  Of course maybe the "chicken feathers"
approach might help with that.

- Peter Flipsen Jr



> It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than
> it does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term;

> unless they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a
> byproduct of making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw
> material is for making chlorine.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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Re: PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Cor van de Water
The grid-feeding of (renewable) energy is extremely efficient,
because what you do not use immediately in your own home will
be delivered to your direct neighbors, so there is virtually
no loss.
There is only one thing more efficient and that is energy reduction
(switching off a device that you do not really need at that moment,
such as a TV that nobody watches or a light in an empty room; or
replacing a device with a more efficient one, such as an incandescent
bulb with a LED light.)

FWIW, when I designed and installed my 3kW home solar array
I opted to only have a grid feeding inverter because of the
lack of hassle with batteries, the reduction in investment
and the increase in efficiency.
(and the grid went out only 1 time in the 7 years
 that I lived in that house, it was announced in the papers)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
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Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 11:12 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Or, for that matter, just running the electricty back to the grid.
That's even easier than batteries.  Maybe more efficient, too.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: 05 February, 2011 9:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Using good electricity to generate Hydrogen only to use it to generate
electricity in fool cells (at more than 50% energy loss) which are not
only horrendous expensive and need regular maintenance and.... (fill out
the laundry list of drawbacks) Is he getting those fuel cells for free
from the manufacturer or did he use a grant?
I cannot imagine a way that it will be a better solution than battery
storage...
Certainly he loses a lot more energy along the way, so he was either
mis-informed or he has too much money or time, meaning that there must
be a reason that he is showing off Hydrogen, even while it is so
inefficient and has so many other drawbacks, I did not read or see the
story, so I am interested in the story behind the story....

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of SLPinfo.org
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PBS NOVA does CLEAN, and Bill and the Killacycle

Neil,

The NOVA show the other night included an interview with a guy who
generates hydrogen (from water) using electricity from a large bank of
solar panels.
He stores the hydrogen in several 10,000 gallon propane tanks.  He then
uses the hydrogen in fuel cells to power his house.  The water
"emissions" from the fuel cells is recycled back into the system to make
more hydrogen.  The idea is that he has 24/7 365 day power that (at
least indirectly) is from the sun and it's a closed system. They didn't
say how much it cost him to set it up or how much land he has available
to him for the solar arrays.

One could imagine making hydrogen for your fuel cell vehicle that way or
even using wind generators. On board storage of the hydrogen (with the
energy necessary to compress it enough to fit into an onboard tank)
would still be an issue.  Of course maybe the "chicken feathers"
approach might help with that.

- Peter Flipsen Jr



> It takes at least 3-3.5X more energy to make hydrogen from water than
> it does to charge batteries.  Hydrogen is not viable in the long term;

> unless they come up with a far better way to make it.  Hydrogen is a
> byproduct of making chlorine, I think?  But I don't know what the raw
> material is for making chlorine.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
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