Re: Solar trailer

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Re: Solar trailer

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be about 10000 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.

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Re: Solar trailer

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Nice summary.

The item "receiving 100 watts per square meter" is tricky. On a clear day
with the sun over head you may see 1300W/m^2.  But more usual is 1100 or
1000. Could be 200W/m^2 with clouds or heavy weather. And the sun,
unfortunately does not stay directly in front of a mobile array no matter
what you do.  Then you apply the 80% or probably more efficiency
reduction.  (I have heard that CA is more forgiving than most places when
the smoke dies down. And then then there is SF in the AM ...)

Calling it 100 W/m^2 is a swag, but not a bad one. It is just that it
washes out all sorts of sub-optimal situations that will inevitably occur.

Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Marc de Piolenc via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> You're getting power and energy mixed up.
> Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power) it
> consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
> It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
> not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
> power rating and speed.
> To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
> array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
> 100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
> photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
>
> It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge while
> driving.
>
> On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car to
> recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be worthwhile,
> depending on your application. This would work if you have a short commute,
> followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in broad daylight in a
> sunny climate.
>
> Marc de Piolenc



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Re: Solar trailer

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Marc,
Iam afraid you are not making the Leaf specification situation better.
When Lawrence says he has a 30kW battery, he means 30 kWh.
That is a 2016 Leaf with the improved battery (normal was 24 kWh).
All Leafs have a 90 kW rating IIRC, meaning that they can accelerate
with the
motor producing up to 90kW of power.
Standard freeway driving takes about 15kW, Lawrence is apparently
capable of using only 12.2 kW while mainining 55 MPH on the freeway
by doing 4.5 mi/kWh.
Regards,

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc
via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to
know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.?
Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for
figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed
for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be about 10000
watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the
point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge
while driving.

--
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http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile):
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Re: Solar trailer

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about 10 - 12 HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery in the Leaf is rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar panel system that could replenish this energy plus conversion losses would keep the car going and the battery level at a its current level of charge because the solar panel system would run the car.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer

You're getting power and energy mixed up.
Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with its
power rating and speed.
To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency, receiving
100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.

It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
while driving.

On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have a
short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
broad daylight in a sunny climate.

Marc de Piolenc

On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be about 10000 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.

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Re: Solar trailer

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Leaf power level demands at 55 mph are easily 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi (or 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph).

It would be awesome if Leaf energy consumption was as low as you mentioned but most owner experiences indicate otherwise. With your numbers a Leaf could easily do 150 miles. Many owners get 40-60 miles in older Leafs and 80-100 miles in newer 30 kWh models.

2011-2017 Leaf motor is rated at 80 kW power.



On December 28, 2017 11:31:41 PM CST, ROBERT via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about
>10 - 12 HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery
>in the Leaf is rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all
>the power in the battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9
>KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar panel system that could replenish
>this energy plus conversion losses would keep the car going and the
>battery level at a its current level of charge because the solar panel
>system would run the car.
>
>
>________________________________
>From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via
>EV <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Cc: Marc de Piolenc
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
>
>You're getting power and energy mixed up.
>Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
>it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
>It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
>not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with
>its
>power rating and speed.
>To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
>array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency,
>receiving
>100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
>photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
>
>It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
>while driving.
>
>On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
>to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
>worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have
>a
>short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
>broad daylight in a sunny climate.
>
>Marc de Piolenc
>
>On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets
>4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd
>like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that
>speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the
>formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of
>all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my
>car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would
>be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be
>about 10000 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence
>Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that
>could charge while driving.
>
>--
>Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
>[http://www.archivale.com/catalog/images/header.gif]<http://www.archivale.com/catalog>
>
>Archivale<http://www.archivale.com/catalog>
>www.archivale.com
>Archivale is your Internet Gateway to Technical Information. Search, or
>browse our site by topic to find the information you need, at a price
>you can afford.
>
>
>Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
>Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
>Piolenc - French to English translator. Translation services in
>Automotive / Cars & Trucks - aeronautics, propulsion, lighter than air,
>power, intelligence, espionage, military, engineering, nuclear,
>chemical, mechanical, civil<http://www.proz.com/profile/639380>
>www.proz.com
>(Translator Profile - Piolenc) Translation services in French to
>English (Automotive / Cars & Trucks and other fields.)
>
>
>Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
>Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
>[http://massflow.archivale.com/jh2_2.gif]<http://massflow.archivale.com/>
>
>Mass Flow<http://massflow.archivale.com/>
>massflow.archivale.com
>Other Ducted Fan and Shrouded Propeller Links [No endorsement by Mass
>Flow is implied!] Smitty Hairplane Company (a "baby jet" with
>auto-engine-driven fan)
>
>
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>(EVs). We define an EV as a ...
>
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Re: Solar trailer

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On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph)

That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to state
the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it 13.75 kW.

My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV can
maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some fairly
efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around
6.5kW.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Solar trailer

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 29 Dec 2017 at 5:31, someone wrote:

>  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the
> battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.

You're joking here, yes?  I'm sure you know that power isn't measured in
kWh.

I'm not so sure that we should joke about this carelessness and confusion
between watt-hours and watts.  It doesn't make us look good.

I also can't imagine that a Leaf battery's power is limited to only 30kW
(assuming that's what you really mean).  That would make for some pretty
feeble acceleration.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Solar trailer

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yes the units cancel. I brought the units along anyway to make the parallel to my base numbers more obvious.

Also, gen 1 Leaf curb weight is around 3300 lbs; in comparison a gen 3 Prius is about 3050 lbs and a Model S is about 4500-4900 lbs depending on pack capacity.


On December 29, 2017 2:55:32 AM CST, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>
>> 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph)
>
>That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to
>state
>the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it
>13.75 kW.
>
>My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV
>can
>maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some
>fairly
>efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around
>
>6.5kW.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
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Re: Solar trailer

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What does work is an 850 pound vehicle with a CD of .16 a 15 kw battery, 1.5 kw solar panel.  The Stella, Stella Lux & Stella Vie follow this format with Stella Vie having reduced panel and increased aerodynamics.  Stella Lux was so successful the rules were changed to slow them down.  With modern manufacturing technology I am surprised someone hasn't built freeway capable vehicles like these.  They hold up to 5 passengers, have cup holders and trunks.  I would love to have one.  I am just too lazy to build one.  Lawrence Rhodes

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On Dec 29, 2017 1:11 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Solar trailer (Haudy Kazemi)
>    2. Re: Solar trailer (EVDL Administrator)
>    3. Re: Solar trailer (EVDL Administrator)
>    4. Re: Solar trailer calculation (EVDL Administrator)
>    5. Re: Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste) (Robert Bruninga)
>    6. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lawrence Rhodes)
>    7. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lee Hart)
>    8. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Robert Bruninga)
>    9. Re: Solar trailer (Haudy Kazemi)
>   10. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lawrence Rhodes)
>   11. Re: Solar trailer calculation (Lee Hart)
>   12. Re: Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste) (Bill Dube)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:43:35 -0600
> From: Haudy Kazemi <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>, ROBERT via
> EV <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Leaf power level demands at 55 mph are easily 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi (or 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph).
>
> It would be awesome if Leaf energy consumption was as low as you mentioned but most owner experiences indicate otherwise. With your numbers a Leaf could easily do 150 miles. Many owners get 40-60 miles in older Leafs and 80-100 miles in newer 30 kWh models.
>
> 2011-2017 Leaf motor is rated at 80 kW power.
>
>
>
> On December 28, 2017 11:31:41 PM CST, ROBERT via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >What? To maintain a small car like a Leaf at 55 MPH only requires about
> >10 - 12 HP.  This is only 7.5 KW (10HP) - 8.9 KW (12HP).  The battery
> >in the Leaf is rated at 30 KW-Hr.  At 55 MPH it does not require all
> >the power in the battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9
> >KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.  A solar panel system that could replenish
> >this energy plus conversion losses would keep the car going and the
> >battery level at a its current level of charge because the solar panel
> >system would run the car.
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc de Piolenc via
> >EV <[hidden email]>
> >Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:39 PM
> >To: [hidden email]
> >Cc: Marc de Piolenc
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> >
> >You're getting power and energy mixed up.
> >Your Leaf has a POWER rating of 30 kW, which means that (at full power)
> >it consumes 30 kW-hours of energy per hour.
> >It does not get 4.5 miles per kW because a kilowatt is a unit of power,
> >not energy - maybe 4.5 miles per kWh which is roughly consonant with
> >its
> >power rating and speed.
> >To support that speed without dipping into batteries, you need a solar
> >array that constantly produces 30 kW, which at 20% efficiency,
> >receiving
> >100 watts per square meter, will require 300/.20 square meters of solar
> >photovoltaic panels, or 1500 square meters. Not easy to tote around.
> >
> >It is safe to say that you cannot generate enough juice to recharge
> >while driving.
> >
> >On the other hand, having a much smaller array can still allow your car
> >to recharge while it is parked in the open, and that might be
> >worthwhile, depending on your application. This would work if you have
> >a
> >short commute, followed by the car being idle for nine hours or so in
> >broad daylight in a sunny climate.
> >
> >Marc de Piolenc
> >
> >On 12/28/2017 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets
> >4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd
> >like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that
> >speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the
> >formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of
> >all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my
> >car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would
> >be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be
> >about 10000 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence
> >Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that
> >could charge while driving.
> >
> >--
> >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> >[http://www.archivale.com/catalog/images/header.gif]<http://www.archivale.com/catalog>
> >
> >Archivale<http://www.archivale.com/catalog>
> >www.archivale.com
> >Archivale is your Internet Gateway to Technical Information. Search, or
> >browse our site by topic to find the information you need, at a price
> >you can afford.
> >
> >
> >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
> >Piolenc - French to English translator. Translation services in
> >Automotive / Cars & Trucks - aeronautics, propulsion, lighter than air,
> >power, intelligence, espionage, military, engineering, nuclear,
> >chemical, mechanical, civil<http://www.proz.com/profile/639380>
> >www.proz.com
> >(Translator Profile - Piolenc) Translation services in French to
> >English (Automotive / Cars & Trucks and other fields.)
> >
> >
> >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
> >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
> >[http://massflow.archivale.com/jh2_2.gif]<http://massflow.archivale.com/>
> >
> >Mass Flow<http://massflow.archivale.com/>
> >massflow.archivale.com
> >Other Ducted Fan and Shrouded Propeller Links [No endorsement by Mass
> >Flow is implied!] Smitty Hairplane Company (a "baby jet" with
> >auto-engine-driven fan)
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:55:32 -0500
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>
> > 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph)
>
> That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to state
> the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it 13.75 kW.
>
> My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV can
> maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some fairly
> efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around
> 6.5kW.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:55:32 -0500
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 29 Dec 2017 at 5:31, someone wrote:
>
> >  At 55 MPH it does not require all the power in the
> > battery (30KW-Hr).  It only requires 7.5KW-Hr - 8.9 KW-Hr to maintain 55 MPH.
>
> You're joking here, yes?  I'm sure you know that power isn't measured in
> kWh.
>
> I'm not so sure that we should joke about this carelessness and confusion
> between watt-hours and watts.  It doesn't make us look good.
>
> I also can't imagine that a Leaf battery's power is limited to only 30kW
> (assuming that's what you really mean).  That would make for some pretty
> feeble acceleration.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:55:32 -0500
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 28 Dec 2017 at 18:31, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
>
> > Lots of "something elses".  Good aerodynamics. Low frontal area. Flush
> > windows. An absolutely smooth flat bottom. No front grille. High
> > pressure, low rolling resistance tires (small by modern standards).
> > Brakes that don't drag. A motor and controller so efficient that they
> > don't need a power-consuming liquid cooling system. 
>
> Also a light, efficient transaxle.  Even the Geo Metro factory transaxle was
> too high in friction for his taste, so Worden chucked it and built something
> better.  There may be other EV conversion business that went this far, but I
> don't know of any.
>
> That's what James Worden was all about.  He obsessively tuned efficiency in
> his EVs.  That's why he routinely won the Tour de Sol, and also part of why
> his cars were too expensive to ever sell well.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 10:27:58 -0500
> From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)
> Message-ID:
> <CALdCfNJR3FH=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> >
> > Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
> > maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
>
>
> Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
> tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
>
> The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
> watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
> surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
> less practical.
>
> ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
> prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
> is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
> summer day.
>
> So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
>
> The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
> parked at camping and Ham radio events.
>
> Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
> spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
> does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
> time while parked.
>
> Bob, WB4PRR
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:37:20 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.? Lawrence Rhodes
>
>       From: Brett Davis <[hidden email]>
> To: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
>   
> The consumption rate is 12.2 kWh plus losses.?
> So a 15kW panel should do it? (Is this right? )
> Some quick googling suggests 100-110 square meters. 1100 sq ft or so.? 8' wide and 130' long.?
> YMMV
> Brett?
> On Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5 miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.? What I'd like to know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.? Now don't tell me it can't be done.? I just want to know the formula for figuring it out.? My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the variables.? I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10 hours.? I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for continuous power at speed.? I guesstimated it would be about 10000 watts.? I'd just like the exact number.? Thanks,? Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/ index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/ listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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>
>
>
>
>   
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 10:02:03 -0600
> From: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > [Sunrise efficiency] Also a light, efficient transaxle.  Even the Geo Metro
> > factory transaxle was too high in friction for his taste, so Worden chucked
> > it and built something better.
>
> Not quite; he kept the Geo transaxle, but "gutted" it so all it had was 2nd
> gear. It then ran lighter weight oil (not the usual 90w gear lube).
>
> > That's what James Worden was all about.  He obsessively tuned efficiency in
> > his EVs.  That's why he routinely won the Tour de Sol, and also part of why
> > his cars were too expensive to ever sell well.
>
> That's him! Efficiency was his goal; and he was good at it achieving it.
>
> The cars were expensive simply because they were hand-made in such low
> quantities. The efficiency enhancements added little to their cost, but helped
> them sell better. So they were probably a step in the right direction.
>
> I think Worden saw the GM EV1 as his real competition. It was another
> exceptional EV that was designed from the ground up for efficiency. Neither car
> was the "same old thing" -- an EV conversion of a standard ICE vehicle, with an
> old forklift motor and off-the-shelf batteries. Instead, they showed us what an
> EV can really do if designed right from the very beginning.
>
> I think the genius of Bob Rice was to realize that a) scratch-built EVs really
> *can* be built cheaper and simpler than ICEs, and b) Worden's improvements could
> be applied to *any* EV that was built from scratch.
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:14:32 -0500
> From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> > With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.
>
> But the cost to double efficiency from 18% to 36% costs ONE THOUSAND times
> more.
> and ALWAYS WILL.  Since 1970, in the same time since Silcon cells have gone
> down in cost by 100 to one, the cost of higher efficiency cells has only
> gone UP by ten to one.
>
> The difference is now 1000 to one. and DIVERGING not getting closer.  THe
> raeson is that the space industry will pay ANYTHING for a few more watts.
> The home owner wont pay a dime more..
>
> bob, WB4APR
>
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > With more efficient panels that length is reduced to 60 ish feet.
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> >
> >       From: Brett Davis <[hidden email]>
> >  To: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>; Electric Vehicle
> > Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> >  Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:10 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> >
> > The consumption rate is 12.2 kWh plus losses.
> > So a 15kW panel should do it? (Is this right? )
> > Some quick googling suggests 100-110 square meters. 1100 sq ft or so.  8'
> > wide and 130' long.
> > YMMV
> > Brett
> > On Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM, "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > My math is good enough to figure out I get about my 30kw Leaf gets 4.5
> > miles per kw at 55mph more or less depending on wind.  What I'd like to
> > know is what size solar panel would be needed to support that speed.  Now
> > don't tell me it can't be done.  I just want to know the formula for
> > figuring it out.  My puny brain exploded when I thought of all the
> > variables.  I do know that a 3000 watt system would charge my car in 10
> > hours.  I would just like to know the numbers of what would be needed for
> > continuous power at speed.  I guesstimated it would be about 10000 watts.
> > I'd just like the exact number.  Thanks,  Lawrence Rhodes...the point is to
> > build a teardrop solar range extender/RV that could charge while driving.
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > ______________________________ _________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/ index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/ listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 10:36:16 -0600
> From: Haudy Kazemi <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>, EVDL
> Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
> Cc: EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Yes the units cancel. I brought the units along anyway to make the parallel to my base numbers more obvious.
>
> Also, gen 1 Leaf curb weight is around 3300 lbs; in comparison a gen 3 Prius is about 3050 lbs and a Model S is about 4500-4900 lbs depending on pack capacity.
>
>
> On December 29, 2017 2:55:32 AM CST, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >On 29 Dec 2017 at 1:43, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> >
> >> 13.75 kWh/55 miles at 55 mph)
> >
> >That might be accurate, but to me it seems like a convoluted way to
> >state
> >the power required.  The miles and the hours cancel out, making it
> >13.75 kW.
> >
> >My own admittedly limited experience is that a ~2500lb conversion EV
> >can
> >maintain 55mph with an average power of around 10kW.  I know of some
> >fairly
> >efficient conversions closer to 2000lb that can sustain 45mph at around
> >
> >6.5kW.
> >
> >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >EVDL Administrator
> >
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> >reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> >email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:59:00 -0800
> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch cells. 2000 watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 mph on level ground or charge you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I would have eyelets on each corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a light weight trailer.    Lawrence Rhodes
> https://youtu.be/dWxIbRXGSrs
> Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:51:51 -0600
> From: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer calculation
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> > If you scaled down and accepted kevel one charging you could use 550 5 inch cells. 2000 watts. Have a 8 x 12 foot tear drop trailer.  It might push you 15 mph on level ground or charge you in 21 hours.  Many variations for shape, power  and speed. I would have eyelets on each corner to tie it down in high winds. The whole DIY build would be plywood on a light weight trailer.
>
> When you're aiming for efficiency, I think a trailer is a liability. It
> would be better to shape the vehicle itself to have as much roof area as
> possible, and use as little energy as possible. Essentially what you see
> in cars like Stella, or the solar raycers.
>
> The vehicle can also be specialized for your particular situation. How
> far do you drive in a day? Maybe you can size the PV panels and
> batteries so it can work for you with little or no grid charging. Maybe
> the PV panels can unfold when parked, to significantly increase their area.
>
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:20:20 -0700
> From: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I agree 100%.
> Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small
> trailer. Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the
> panels produce, especially at highway speeds.
>
> Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar
> shed" for your car to park under at work.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> >> Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
> >> maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.
> >
> > Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
> > tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.
> >
> > The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
> > watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
> > surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
> > less practical.
> >
> > ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
> > prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
> > is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
> > summer day.
> >
> > So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.
> >
> > The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
> > parked at camping and Ham radio events.
> >
> > Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
> > http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
> >
> > Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
> > spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
> > does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
> > time while parked.
> >
> > Bob, WB4PRR
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of EV Digest, Vol 62, Issue 37
> **********************************
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