Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

EVDL Administrator
On 7 Aug 2007 at 23:26, [hidden email] wrote:

> Why wait for deliverance from big business when you can convert an old car
> today?

Not so much "deliverance from big business."  

Not to slight anyone in any way, but people have different priorities.  When I
was in my 20s and 30s, working on cars was fun.  In middle age, I really
don't much care for it any more.  Although I still change oil in the ICEs, lying
on my back under a car is a LONG way from being my favorite pastime.  If I
could buy a nice factory EV that met my needs, I would - and will.  

I don't expect that I'll buy an EV from "big business."  More likely it will come
from a small operation.  It could be something like the Freedom or Sunrise II,
or maybe the product of a company on the scale of Tesla.  It might be an
import from a small to medium size company in India, Korea, Japan, or
China.  It might indeed be from one of the major automakers, but given their
past performance, I'd put the likelihood of that dead last on the list.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

mos6507-2
Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal.  That would be the path of least resistance.  What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action.  People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible.  I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube.  So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.

----- Original Message ----
> Why wait for deliverance from big business when you can convert an old car
> today?

Not so much "deliverance from big business."  

Not to slight anyone in any way, but people have different priorities.  When I
was in my 20s and 30s, working on cars was fun.  In middle age, I really
don't much care for it any more.  Although I still change oil in the ICEs, lying
on my back under a car is a LONG way from being my favorite pastime.  If I
could buy a nice factory EV that met my needs, I would - and will.  

I don't expect that I'll buy an EV from "big business."  More likely it will come
from a small operation.  It could be something like the Freedom or Sunrise II,
or maybe the product of a company on the scale of Tesla.  It might be an
import from a small to medium size company in India, Korea, Japan, or
China.  It might indeed be from one of the major automakers, but given their
past performance, I'd put the likelihood of that dead last on the list.




_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Timothy Balcer
Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated
that the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I
checked on wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium
cells and it is miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay.
I know they have to recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to
make 200mile machines in our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.

I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together
research material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery
plant. :) Who knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the
battery label. (Yes, I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc
etc ;)

My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share
until the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try
to buy a few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have
serious competition or not.

On 8/8/07, Glenn Saunders <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal.  That would be the path of least resistance.  What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action.  People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible.  I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube.  So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Dan Frederiksen-2
I like your thinking. if you have some expertice in the field you might
be able to achieve a crude cell with no investment. even if it never
would be viable the demonstration might burst this overpricing bubble
they have in their heads. remember it only took 2 guys to get bush to go
from pure evil to singing green tunes (even if he sang off key :)
Who knew that gore and payne would be good things :)

all it takes is a few good men

Dan



Timothy Balcer wrote:

> Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated
> that the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I
> checked on wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium
> cells and it is miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay.
> I know they have to recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to
> make 200mile machines in our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.
>
> I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together
> research material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery
> plant. :) Who knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the
> battery label. (Yes, I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc
> etc ;)
>
> My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share
> until the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try
> to buy a few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have
> serious competition or not.
>
> On 8/8/07, Glenn Saunders <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal.  That would be the path of least resistance.  What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action.  People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible.  I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube.  So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.
>>    
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Tony Hwang
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
If you do make cheaper lithium cells (can't imagine it being easy, research, testing, etc), maybe a big company will buy you up and you can make your millions. :)

Right now the cells are all made overseas in China mostly (A123, TS, etc). I think it would be too expensive to slap a "Made In The USA" on the cells. Safety, wages, health insurance for employees, etc...

                    - Tony

----- Original Message ----
From: Timothy Balcer <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:13:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The fate of the volt, who cares?

Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated
that the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I
checked on wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium
cells and it is miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay.
I know they have to recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to
make 200mile machines in our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.

I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together
research material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery
plant. :) Who knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the
battery label. (Yes, I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc
etc ;)

My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share
until the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try
to buy a few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have
serious competition or not.

On 8/8/07, Glenn Saunders <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal.  That would be the path of least resistance.  What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action.  People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible.  I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube.  So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Timothy Balcer
On 8/8/07, Tony Hwang <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you do make cheaper lithium cells (can't imagine it being easy, research, testing, etc), maybe a big company will buy you up and you can make your millions. :)
>
> Right now the cells are all made overseas in China mostly (A123, TS, etc). I think it would be too expensive to slap a "Made In The USA" on the cells. Safety, wages, health insurance for employees, etc...

Well the technical stuff would not be too difficult... it's the
production that is hard. I can get the chemical and physical specs for
a LiFEPO4 battery for free, even. It is patent issues and production
issues that you would have to surmount.

If you do a pull based manufacturing model, you can't do high volume,
but it is a lot cheaper in absolute costs since you can retool at any
time and play about with it to perfect the process a lot easier. Plus
you could do it in a garage, in theory, since you could encaps all the
important bits in an airtight polycarbonate shell.

Also there is a real misnomer about how expensive it is to produce
things in the US. The manufacturers all complain about it and yes, you
do have to pay people a living wage, plus make sure they aren't dying
of cancer.. but..

With fuel prices rising it is at a razor's edge now, as far as
overseas manufacturing being more profitable than domestic. And there
are a few companies doing domestic production and raking it in..
American Apparel, for example.

I'm not worried about outsourcing at all.. not for large format
anyway. And not for something that can be progressively more
automated.

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

How to help move things forward

mos6507-2
In reply to this post by Timothy Balcer
When it comes to finding a way to contribute to the adoption of electric
vehicles, I think there is lower hanging fruit to pursue before attempting
to climb a mountain as big as making advanced batteries from scratch.

In fact I just came up with something internet-related to keep me busy in
the scene until I have the opportunity to convert my car, something that can
use my skillset.  Let me know how this sounds...

A few days ago I was thinking about how to make EV use more practical for
longer trips without official charging stations.  I noticed that there are
old lists of people online intended to provide informal charging to others.
In the early period of a hobby, information tends to be scattered around and
disjointed like this.  That's really the state of things today with EV
stuff.  This mailing list is probably the closest there is to a single
central hub.  But as people have said recently, it is old-school technology.
There aren't a lot of tools you can hang off of this.  It's just raw
discussion.

So my idea is to form an EV community around the social networking
structure.  So take Facebook for instance.  Facebook has something called
the Facebook API which allows you to extend the system in different ways.
My idea is to create a network of EV owners (or just sympathetic friends and
family) on Facebook who can publish their location as an open charging
service for their other EV friends.  Then you use the Google Maps API so you
can plot long trips that utilize your friends' charging services to get from
point A to point B.  Because everything is database-driven, you can
carefully reserve these reservation windows and avoid contention for a
single charger or showing up when the resident is not around.  To make it
more reliable, you slap on a rating system.  If someone "flakes" on you,
either preventing access to the charger, or is a no-show, then you rank him
down.  This is the Ebay honor system.  As for privacy, all of the sensitive
information here is very carefully controlled on Facebook.  There is a lot
of detailed settings at your disposal.  You would opt into this stuff only
if you feel there is the proper trust-level with your potential charging
partners.  Jerks would be quickly blackballed out of the system due to the
rankings.  (I'm not dealing with the issue of back and forth credits or a
payment for electricity used right now.  That can be worked in later.)

In addition to all that, you then wire up your navigation system (i.e.
laptop) with GPS.  So you sync all your travel data back and forth.  Now you
have a system that can analyze your driving habits and make realistic range
estimates.  It will try to keep you from plotting the trip unless it thinks
you can't make it.  For instance, if it remembers that the last time you
took street X, you had to go over a steep grade that lowered your range, it
will take that into account next time.  If the batteries follow an unusual
discharging pattern, the system will be able to warn you in advance and
suggest a detour to a closer charging location or suggesting that you
double-back.  Also, you would be able to publish your driving statistics.
So for those with similar cars, it might be able to collectively average the
data in order to accelerate the process of honing the range estimates over
various streets that have different conditions.  You could also have a
competitive leaderboard.  You could have people with the top range per
charge, or group them by the car's model.  Like "highest range Super
Beetle".  This is similar to what John Wayland wrote about in 'gaming' the
EV1 rental, but taken to the next level.  I think a lot of this sort of
thing is what Th!nk is planning to do, but none of this is impossible to do
at the grass-roots level.  

It might be nice if there were charging stations everywhere so you could
just charge at work, the movies, the mall, or various parking meters, but it
might actually be a good thing for people to have to rely on EACHOTHER a
little bit rather than infrastructure.  You might start out in a simply
pragmatic charge-charge relationship with another EV owner, but then you've
GOT to "hang out" while the car charges assuming the person's home isn't
adjacent to some other area of interest.  So it presents some good
opportunities to slow your life down a little bit and get to KNOW other
people, presumably other people who have common interests.  It seems like
the two things go hand in hand, and would be therapeutic.

Does any of this seem appealing to you all?


-----Original Message-----
Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated that
the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I checked on
wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium cells and it is
miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay. I know they have to
recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to make 200mile machines in
our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.

I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together research
material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery plant. :) Who
knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the battery label. (Yes,
I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc etc ;)

My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share until
the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try to buy a
few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have serious
competition or not.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: How to help move things forward

Timothy Balcer
FYI folks the idea of making lf lithium batteries in my garage is
definitely in the category of 'dreamy vapor' and not to be taken too
seriously :) It's a thought experiment.

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: How to help move things forward

Joseph T.
Well, it sounds like a good idea. The EV charging lists seem pretty
dead to me, so I think a new EV charging list would be a great idea.

The whole GPS, with stuff estimating range (taking terrain into
account) and all sounds difficult. But I don't really know, since all
I really know us how to do turn on a computer and go onto the
e-mail/Internet.

On 8/8/07, Timothy Balcer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> FYI folks the idea of making lf lithium batteries in my garage is
> definitely in the category of 'dreamy vapor' and not to be taken too
> seriously :) It's a thought experiment.
>
> --T
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

geo metro update

mike golub
Hello

I drove my Geo Metro in my yard ... a little bit.

I used 36 volts and a curtis 1204 (24-36v, 275 amp).

I didn't connect the fan to the G29 motor yet.

I was wondering if I made a mistake in going direct
drive. The car did not want to move unless it was on
level ground, when starting up.

When I add more volts and change the controller will
it make a difference?

My direct drive works like this. I have the motor
directly coupled to the transmission, so I still have
the clutch, minus the pedal.

Thanks in advance,

Michael Golub
Fairbanks


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Brian Jackson-10
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
One of the problems with the grass roots approach is that small EV manufacturers often lack the ability to produce a high volume of vehicles. Small manufacturers lack the resources to develop their own safety features and then crash test cars. This is why EVs tend to be conversions, kit cars, NEVs, and 3 wheelers. GM does not have this problem. The problem with GM is... well... that is a subject all to itself. :(

I hope the Volt goes into production. GM needs this one bad! Our economy needs GM to succeed.

Brian

 
---- Timothy Balcer <[hidden email]> wrote:

=============
On 8/8/07, Tony Hwang <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you do make cheaper lithium cells (can't imagine it being easy, research, testing, etc), maybe a big company will buy you up and you can make your millions. :)
>
> Right now the cells are all made overseas in China mostly (A123, TS, etc). I think it would be too expensive to slap a "Made In The USA" on the cells. Safety, wages, health insurance for employees, etc...

Well the technical stuff would not be too difficult... it's the
production that is hard. I can get the chemical and physical specs for
a LiFEPO4 battery for free, even. It is patent issues and production
issues that you would have to surmount.

If you do a pull based manufacturing model, you can't do high volume,
but it is a lot cheaper in absolute costs since you can retool at any
time and play about with it to perfect the process a lot easier. Plus
you could do it in a garage, in theory, since you could encaps all the
important bits in an airtight polycarbonate shell.

Also there is a real misnomer about how expensive it is to produce
things in the US. The manufacturers all complain about it and yes, you
do have to pay people a living wage, plus make sure they aren't dying
of cancer.. but..

With fuel prices rising it is at a razor's edge now, as far as
overseas manufacturing being more profitable than domestic. And there
are a few companies doing domestic production and raking it in..
American Apparel, for example.

I'm not worried about outsourcing at all.. not for large format
anyway. And not for something that can be progressively more
automated.

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: geo metro update

Mike.B
In reply to this post by mike golub
Mike, I had the same problem with torque issues on
inclines using the G29 generator/motor.  You'll want
to power the field winding separately with another
battery pack.  Use the controller for strictly the
armature.  


--- mike golub <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello
>
> I drove my Geo Metro in my yard ... a little bit.
>
> I used 36 volts and a curtis 1204 (24-36v, 275 amp).
>
> I didn't connect the fan to the G29 motor yet.
>
> I was wondering if I made a mistake in going direct
> drive. The car did not want to move unless it was on
> level ground, when starting up.
>
> When I add more volts and change the controller will
> it make a difference?
>
> My direct drive works like this. I have the motor
> directly coupled to the transmission, so I still
> have
> the clutch, minus the pedal.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Michael Golub
> Fairbanks
>
>
>      
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network
> Research Panel today!  
>
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
I looked into making my own lithium-ion cells. The lithium cobolt
material was to expensive to purchase and come out ahead but I found
sources for the liFePo4 that wern't to bad, just not in the US. The US
companies wanted trainload min quantities, up front annual purchase
aggreements etc.

    in a nut shell, lithium ion prismatic cell construction
       there are 2 sets of chemicals and plates, LiFePo4 and aluminum
and graphite and copper. cant remember which goes with which w/o looking
it up)
       For high capacity lower amp cells a very fine mesh screen is
avail  see fukowa foils on PRED battery materials web site.
       mix chemicals with binder. Now available in water based that can
be used in open atmosphere safely for the cell and for the employee.
       spread mix onto plates, collander (run thru pressure rollers.)
       dry plates
       while dry assemble (usually done in argon filled chamber)
plate-seperator-plate ...
       zero scale
       pull vacuum on cell, this serves as leak test and is how you get
electrolyte in.
       allow vacuum to pull in electrolyte, seal.
       commission charge.

If you go to the scientific and education supply houses you can buy the
chemicals but the prices were 1000 to 10,000 times the price for a few
grams or kilograms that you'd pay if from an industrial supplier.
    One of the points stressed in the original LiFePo4 research
documentation was the low environmental and decreased cost over
nimh,LiCo, and LiMg cells. It was always touted as a replacement for
lead at approximatly twice the raw material costs but 4 times the energy
density. I think this was overly optimistic from the typical research
perspective. Actual costs are higher.

All in all I am guesing/hoping that the prices will drop in half in the
next year or two.
     


       
     

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Making lithium batteries

Dan Frederiksen-2
That's cool Jeff
what about buying the raw elements and making the LiFePO4 chemical
yourself too? would that reduce the cost a lot?
sure one would have to be clever several times to get something working
but it would be soo cool : )
even if it didn't work too well but imagine having an EV with homebuilt
lithium batteries :)

it has a very high in your face rating :)

Dan


Jeff Shanab wrote:

> I looked into making my own lithium-ion cells. The lithium cobolt
> material was to expensive to purchase and come out ahead but I found
> sources for the liFePo4 that wern't to bad, just not in the US. The US
> companies wanted trainload min quantities, up front annual purchase
> aggreements etc.
>
>     in a nut shell, lithium ion prismatic cell construction
>        there are 2 sets of chemicals and plates, LiFePo4 and aluminum
> and graphite and copper. cant remember which goes with which w/o looking
> it up)
>        For high capacity lower amp cells a very fine mesh screen is
> avail  see fukowa foils on PRED battery materials web site.
>        mix chemicals with binder. Now available in water based that can
> be used in open atmosphere safely for the cell and for the employee.
>        spread mix onto plates, collander (run thru pressure rollers.)
>        dry plates
>        while dry assemble (usually done in argon filled chamber)
> plate-seperator-plate ...
>        zero scale
>        pull vacuum on cell, this serves as leak test and is how you get
> electrolyte in.
>        allow vacuum to pull in electrolyte, seal.
>        commission charge.
>
> If you go to the scientific and education supply houses you can buy the
> chemicals but the prices were 1000 to 10,000 times the price for a few
> grams or kilograms that you'd pay if from an industrial supplier.
>     One of the points stressed in the original LiFePo4 research
> documentation was the low environmental and decreased cost over
> nimh,LiCo, and LiMg cells. It was always touted as a replacement for
> lead at approximatly twice the raw material costs but 4 times the energy
> density. I think this was overly optimistic from the typical research
> perspective. Actual costs are higher.
>
> All in all I am guesing/hoping that the prices will drop in half in the
> next year or two.
>      
>
>
>        
>      
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Timothy Balcer
In reply to this post by Jeff Shanab
>     in a nut shell, lithium ion prismatic cell construction
>        there are 2 sets of chemicals and plates, LiFePo4 and aluminum
> and graphite and copper. cant remember which goes with which w/o looking
> it up)

>From a patent:

"A typical laminated battery cell structure 10 is depicted in FIG. 22.
It comprises a negative electrode side 12, a positive electrode side
14, and an electrolyte/separator 16 there between. Negative electrode
side 12 includes current collector 18, and positive electrode side 14
includes current collector 22. A copper collector foil 18, preferably
in the form of an open mesh grid, upon which is laid a negative
electrode membrane 20 comprising an insertion material such as carbon
or graphite or low-voltage lithium insertion compound, dispersed in a
polymeric binder matrix. An electrolyte/separator film 16 membrane is
preferably a plasticized copolymer. This electrolyte/separator
preferably comprises a polymeric separator and a suitable electrolyte
for ion transport. The electrolyte/separator is positioned upon the
electrode element and is covered with a positive electrode membrane 24
comprising a composition of a finely divided lithium insertion
compound in a polymeric binder matrix. An aluminum collector foil or
grid 22 completes the assembly. Protective bagging material 40 covers
the cell and prevents infiltration of air and moisture. "

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7026072-description.html

This is for a way of doing LiPoly, but you can visualize the steps involved.

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: How to help move things forward

David Dymaxion
In reply to this post by mos6507-2
Sounds like a neat idea. A couple more ideas to throw into the pile: Offer businesses free advertising if they'll allow a free charge. Have people sign safety disclaimers so the businesses will feel better about signing up.

----- Original Message ----
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2007 8:53:17 PM
Subject: [EVDL] How to help move things forward

When it comes to finding a way to contribute to the adoption of electric
vehicles, I think there is lower hanging fruit to pursue before attempting
to climb a mountain as big as making advanced batteries from scratch.

In fact I just came up with something internet-related to keep me busy in
the scene until I have the opportunity to convert my car, something that can
use my skillset.  Let me know how this sounds...

A few days ago I was thinking about how to make EV use more practical for
longer trips without official charging stations.  I noticed that there are
old lists of people online intended to provide informal charging to others.
In the early period of a hobby, information tends to be scattered around and
disjointed like this.  That's really the state of things today with EV
stuff.  This mailing list is probably the closest there is to a single
central hub.  But as people have said recently, it is old-school technology.
There aren't a lot of tools you can hang off of this.  It's just raw
discussion.

So my idea is to form an EV community around the social networking
structure.  So take Facebook for instance.  Facebook has something called
the Facebook API which allows you to extend the system in different ways.
My idea is to create a network of EV owners (or just sympathetic friends and
family) on Facebook who can publish their location as an open charging
service for their other EV friends.  Then you use the Google Maps API so you
can plot long trips that utilize your friends' charging services to get from
point A to point B.  Because everything is database-driven, you can
carefully reserve these reservation windows and avoid contention for a
single charger or showing up when the resident is not around.  To make it
more reliable, you slap on a rating system.  If someone "flakes" on you,
either preventing access to the charger, or is a no-show, then you rank him
down.  This is the Ebay honor system.  As for privacy, all of the sensitive
information here is very carefully controlled on Facebook.  There is a lot
of detailed settings at your disposal.  You would opt into this stuff only
if you feel there is the proper trust-level with your potential charging
partners.  Jerks would be quickly blackballed out of the system due to the
rankings.  (I'm not dealing with the issue of back and forth credits or a
payment for electricity used right now.  That can be worked in later.)

In addition to all that, you then wire up your navigation system (i.e.
laptop) with GPS.  So you sync all your travel data back and forth.  Now you
have a system that can analyze your driving habits and make realistic range
estimates.  It will try to keep you from plotting the trip unless it thinks
you can't make it.  For instance, if it remembers that the last time you
took street X, you had to go over a steep grade that lowered your range, it
will take that into account next time.  If the batteries follow an unusual
discharging pattern, the system will be able to warn you in advance and
suggest a detour to a closer charging location or suggesting that you
double-back.  Also, you would be able to publish your driving statistics.
So for those with similar cars, it might be able to collectively average the
data in order to accelerate the process of honing the range estimates over
various streets that have different conditions.  You could also have a
competitive leaderboard.  You could have people with the top range per
charge, or group them by the car's model.  Like "highest range Super
Beetle".  This is similar to what John Wayland wrote about in 'gaming' the
EV1 rental, but taken to the next level.  I think a lot of this sort of
thing is what Th!nk is planning to do, but none of this is impossible to do
at the grass-roots level.  

It might be nice if there were charging stations everywhere so you could
just charge at work, the movies, the mall, or various parking meters, but it
might actually be a good thing for people to have to rely on EACHOTHER a
little bit rather than infrastructure.  You might start out in a simply
pragmatic charge-charge relationship with another EV owner, but then you've
GOT to "hang out" while the car charges assuming the person's home isn't
adjacent to some other area of interest.  So it presents some good
opportunities to slow your life down a little bit and get to KNOW other
people, presumably other people who have common interests.  It seems like
the two things go hand in hand, and would be therapeutic.

Does any of this seem appealing to you all?


-----Original Message-----
Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated that
the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I checked on
wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium cells and it is
miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay. I know they have to
recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to make 200mile machines in
our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.

I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together research
material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery plant. :) Who
knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the battery label. (Yes,
I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc etc ;)

My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share until
the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try to buy a
few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have serious
competition or not.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev





       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

brougham Baker-2
In reply to this post by Timothy Balcer
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[hidden email]>

> >From a patent:
>
> "A typical laminated battery cell structure 10 is depicted in FIG. 22.
> It comprises a negative electrode side 12, a positive electrode side
> 14, and an electrolyte/separator 16 there between. Negative electrode
> side 12 includes current collector 18, and positive electrode side 14
> includes current collector 22. A copper collector foil 18, preferably
> in the form of an open mesh grid, upon which is laid a negative
> electrode membrane 20 comprising an insertion material such as carbon
> or graphite or low-voltage lithium insertion compound, dispersed in a
> polymeric binder matrix. An electrolyte/separator film 16 membrane is
> preferably a plasticized copolymer. This electrolyte/separator
> preferably comprises a polymeric separator and a suitable electrolyte
> for ion transport. The electrolyte/separator is positioned upon the
> electrode element and is covered with a positive electrode membrane 24
> comprising a composition of a finely divided lithium insertion
> compound in a polymeric binder matrix. An aluminum collector foil or
> grid 22 completes the assembly. Protective bagging material 40 covers
> the cell and prevents infiltration of air and moisture. "
>
> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7026072-description.html
>
> This is for a way of doing LiPoly, but you can visualize the steps
involved.

Is the US patent system the same as the UK's, in that you are allowed to
reproduce what you want from a patent without restriction or fee but only
when you sell the product do you need the patent holders permission?

Bro


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The fate of the volt, who cares?

Timothy Balcer
> Is the US patent system the same as the UK's, in that you are allowed to
> reproduce what you want from a patent without restriction or fee but only
> when you sell the product do you need the patent holders permission?

Unfortunately, no.

"The rights conveyed by a patent vary country-by-country. For example,
in the United States, a patent covers research, except "purely
philosophical" inquiry. A U.S. patent is infringed by any "making" of
the invention, even a making that goes toward development of a new
invention - which may itself become subject of a patent. In contrast,
Australian law permits others to build on top of a patented invention,
by carving out exceptions from infringement for those who conduct
research (e.g. for academic purposes) on the invention, or develop
further inventions based on the patented invention.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev