Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Larry Gales
Thanks for your reply.  I am surprised, however, that headlights would have
much of an effect.  While the average incandescent headlight consumes 55
watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf has) should consume about 14
watts, so less than a total of 30 watts for both headlights.  Even if your
average speed is only 15 mph in traffic, that is only 2 wh/mile.

Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in cold weather was
heating the inside of the car, and so I assumed that electrically headed
seats and steering wheel would provide adequate comfort while dramatically
cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for 2 seats: even at 15 mph
that is less than 7 wh/mile drain).  But I was told by someone who has
heated seats that this is not true, so I still don't know why the Leaf is
so affected by cold weather (although one person noted you have to defog
the windows and that might take some AC).

-- Larry Gales

On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
>
> What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are directly and
> simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use of the
> headlights.
> The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold" Seattle winters --
> the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy" temperature range
> of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery temperature
> gauge.  I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that charge option,
> so
> that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery charge.  What I am
> seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost all of that is
> going towards heating the cabin.  One can easily figure these things out
> using the various display options in Leaf, one of which shows you exactly
> where your power is going.  The other problem that people need to aware of
> is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't check your tire
> pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures go down during
> winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over time, so if you
> see
> your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this technology
> doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires.  The Leaf as a
> Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have put enough air
> in your tires.  Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than gassers, this means
> that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage loss in
> efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more important now, because
> EVs
> have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure issue is really no
> joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire pressures at least
> once a month.
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> Our New Forums are at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> [hidden email] with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
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>



--
Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Cory Cross-2
Well, let me correct the LED thing:

http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-led-headlights/

Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar amount
of power to the halogen lamps.

On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:

> On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
>> Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that headlights would
>> have much of an effect. While the average incandescent headlight
>> consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf has)
>
> No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
> headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not incandescent.
>
>> Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in cold weather
>> was heating the inside of the car,
>
> Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some measurements or
> find some primary literature for reference?
>
> Cory
>
> and so I assumed that electrically
>> headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate comfort while
>> dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for 2 seats:
>> even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I was told by
>> someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I still don't
>> know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although one person
>> noted you have to defog the windows and that might take some AC).
>>
>> -- Larry Gales
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
>>
>> What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are
>> directly and
>> simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use of the
>> headlights.
>> The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold" Seattle
>> winters --
>> the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy" temperature
>> range
>> of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery temperature
>> gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that charge
>> option, so
>> that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery charge. What
>> I am
>> seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost all of
>> that is
>> going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure these things out
>> using the various display options in Leaf, one of which shows you
>> exactly
>> where your power is going. The other problem that people need to
>> aware of
>> is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't check
>> your tire
>> pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures go down
>> during
>> winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over time, so if
>> you see
>> your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this technology
>> doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires. The Leaf as a
>> Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have put
>> enough air
>> in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than gassers, this
>> means
>> that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage loss in
>> efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more important now,
>> because EVs
>> have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure issue is
>> really no
>> joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire pressures at
>> least
>> once a month.
>>
>> --
>> Larry Gales
>>
>

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

EVDL Administrator
On 26 Feb 2012 at 15:49, Cory Cross wrote:

> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-led-headlights
> /
>
> Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar amount of
> power to the halogen lamps.
>

The linked article says 50w per vehicle, or about half as much as halogen
lamps.  That's still not all that impressive.  

OK, they'll last a long time (one hopes), and some people prefer the bluish
color, though I think yellowish light is better in foggy conditions.

IMO they're just a gimmick.  Certainly they won't have any significant
effect on range.  But if LED headlights help sell more EVs, then why not?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Larry Gales
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights (which
the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power needs.  According
to this reference:

    http://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html

LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.

As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must reply
on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I still don't
have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does not appear to be the
battery (except at very low temps, and (at least if the Leaf can select
which seats to heat) the energy for heated seats does not seem large.

-- Larry


On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, let me correct the LED thing:
>
> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-**
> led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-led-headlights/>
>
> Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar amount of
> power to the halogen lamps.
>
>
> On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
>
>> On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that headlights would
>>> have much of an effect. While the average incandescent headlight
>>> consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf has)
>>>
>>
>> No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
>> headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not incandescent.
>>
>>  Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in cold weather
>>> was heating the inside of the car,
>>>
>>
>> Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some measurements or
>> find some primary literature for reference?
>>
>> Cory
>>
>> and so I assumed that electrically
>>
>>> headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate comfort while
>>> dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for 2 seats:
>>> even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I was told by
>>> someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I still don't
>>> know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although one person
>>> noted you have to defog the windows and that might take some AC).
>>>
>>> -- Larry Gales
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
>>>
>>> What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are
>>> directly and
>>> simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use of the
>>> headlights.
>>> The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold" Seattle
>>> winters --
>>> the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy" temperature
>>> range
>>> of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery temperature
>>> gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that charge
>>> option, so
>>> that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery charge. What
>>> I am
>>> seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost all of
>>> that is
>>> going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure these things out
>>> using the various display options in Leaf, one of which shows you
>>> exactly
>>> where your power is going. The other problem that people need to
>>> aware of
>>> is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't check
>>> your tire
>>> pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures go down
>>> during
>>> winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over time, so if
>>> you see
>>> your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this technology
>>> doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires. The Leaf as a
>>> Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have put
>>> enough air
>>> in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than gassers, this
>>> means
>>> that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage loss in
>>> efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more important now,
>>> because EVs
>>> have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure issue is
>>> really no
>>> joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire pressures at
>>> least
>>> once a month.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gales
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> Our New Forums are at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> [hidden email] with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
> This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
>



--
Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Cory Cross-2
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power needs.
> According to this reference:
>
> http://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html
>
> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.

eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it include
any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than one
case. My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp is
the H4:
http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS
which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.

> As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does not
> appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at least if the
> Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated seats does
> not seem large.

What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a
Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so why
are you assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making this
assumption but never attempt to quantify it, and I find it frustrating
that you keep spreading falsehoods whether it is intentional or not.

Cory


> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Well, let me correct the LED thing:
>
>     http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/
>     <http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-led-headlights/>
>
>     Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
>     amount of power to the halogen lamps.
>
>
>     On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
>
>         On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
>
>             Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
>             headlights would
>             have much of an effect. While the average incandescent headlight
>             consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf has)
>
>
>         No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
>         headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
>         incandescent.
>
>             Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
>             cold weather
>             was heating the inside of the car,
>
>
>         Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
>         measurements or
>         find some primary literature for reference?
>
>         Cory
>
>         and so I assumed that electrically
>
>             headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
>             comfort while
>             dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for
>             2 seats:
>             even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I was
>             told by
>             someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
>             still don't
>             know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although
>             one person
>             noted you have to defog the windows and that might take some
>             AC).
>
>             -- Larry Gales
>
>             On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>
>             [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
>
>             What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are
>             directly and
>             simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use of the
>             headlights.
>             The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold" Seattle
>             winters --
>             the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
>             temperature
>             range
>             of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery
>             temperature
>             gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that charge
>             option, so
>             that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
>             charge. What
>             I am
>             seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost
>             all of
>             that is
>             going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure these
>             things out
>             using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
>             shows you
>             exactly
>             where your power is going. The other problem that people need to
>             aware of
>             is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't
>             check
>             your tire
>             pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures
>             go down
>             during
>             winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
>             time, so if
>             you see
>             your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this
>             technology
>             doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires. The
>             Leaf as a
>             Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have put
>             enough air
>             in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
>             gassers, this
>             means
>             that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage
>             loss in
>             efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more important now,
>             because EVs
>             have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
>             issue is
>             really no
>             joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
>             pressures at
>             least
>             once a month.
>

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
On 26 Feb 2012 at 18:03, Larry Gales wrote:

> According to this reference:
>
>     http://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html
>
> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.

This statement is far too broad.  White LEDs vary widely in their
efficiency.  The best prototypes (mostly from Cree) have managed to break
200 lumens per watt in the last couple of years (halogen incandescents
manage around 25 lumens per watt).  However, the ones that mere mortals can
afford are around half that or less, in the same range as garden-variety T8
fluorescents.

That would be for a rather broad defintion of "afford."  For example, I
looked up an 18w Osram A-shape Edison base LED retrofit bulb on the web.  It
runs around 80 lumens per watt and costs $143.  That is not a misprint!  

An extreme example to be sure, but efficient LEDs are not cheap, and cheap
LEDs are not efficient.  The bluish-white generic Chinese LEDs you see in
most consumer products tend to avoid stating lumen output.  That's because
most of them aren't much higher in efficacy than incandescents in most real-
world applications.  (Flashlights are a special case.)

To get back on topic, IMO, the current crop of retrofit LEDs for auto use
are seldom worth bothering with, unless you really spend the big bucks.  In
an EV they might be good for drawing attention, but they won't give you any
significant range improvement.  There are far better ways to spend your EV
money that will give you more more useful range and/or efficiency
improvements.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Larry Gales
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here is the
situation:

(1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer significant range
reductions
     in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf at no
more than 65 miles
     in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as 47 miles
in slow driving in the
     cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced range in the
cold.
(2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car typically run as
high as 2-3 KW,
      so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a Leaf
(3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so two heated
seats should
     consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
(4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
sufficient comfort in
     cold weather with very little effect on the range
(5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told that heated
seats did
     NOT benefit the range.
If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to know that
heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was said
better than I did, please let me know.

-- Larry Gales



On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
>
>> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
>> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power needs.
>> According to this reference:
>>
>> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.**html<http://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
>>
>> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
>>
>
> eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it include any
> actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than one case.
> My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and specifies it
> draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp is the H4:
> http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?itemid=
> **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS<http://www.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
>
>
>  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
>> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
>> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does not
>> appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at least if the
>> Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated seats does
>> not seem large.
>>
>
> What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a Leaf
> owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so why are you
> assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making this assumption but
> never attempt to quantify it, and I find it frustrating that you keep
> spreading falsehoods whether it is intentional or not.
>
> Cory
>
>
>  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
>>
>>    http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
>> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
>>
>>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
>> cost-led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-cost-led-headlights/>
>> >
>>
>>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
>>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
>>
>>
>>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
>>
>>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
>>
>>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
>>            headlights would
>>            have much of an effect. While the average incandescent
>> headlight
>>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf has)
>>
>>
>>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
>>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
>>        incandescent.
>>
>>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
>>            cold weather
>>            was heating the inside of the car,
>>
>>
>>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
>>        measurements or
>>        find some primary literature for reference?
>>
>>        Cory
>>
>>        and so I assumed that electrically
>>
>>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
>>            comfort while
>>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for
>>            2 seats:
>>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I was
>>            told by
>>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
>>            still don't
>>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although
>>            one person
>>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might take some
>>            AC).
>>
>>            -- Larry Gales
>>
>>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
>>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>
>>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
>>
>>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are
>>            directly and
>>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use of
>> the
>>            headlights.
>>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold" Seattle
>>            winters --
>>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
>>            temperature
>>            range
>>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery
>>            temperature
>>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that
>> charge
>>            option, so
>>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
>>            charge. What
>>            I am
>>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost
>>            all of
>>            that is
>>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure these
>>            things out
>>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
>>            shows you
>>            exactly
>>            where your power is going. The other problem that people need
>> to
>>            aware of
>>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't
>>            check
>>            your tire
>>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures
>>            go down
>>            during
>>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
>>            time, so if
>>            you see
>>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this
>>            technology
>>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires. The
>>            Leaf as a
>>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have put
>>            enough air
>>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
>>            gassers, this
>>            means
>>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage
>>            loss in
>>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more important
>> now,
>>            because EVs
>>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
>>            issue is
>>            really no
>>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
>>            pressures at
>>            least
>>            once a month.
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> Our New Forums are at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> [hidden email] with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
> This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
>



--
Larry Gales
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Mike Nickerson
Hi Larry,  

I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).  However, in
my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety as
driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger comfort, but
not the safety.

By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and defogging
the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is only down to the
40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally got me
to install my heater this winter.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Larry Gales
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> To: SEVA
> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
>
> I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here is the
> situation:
>
> (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer significant
range
> reductions
>      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf at no
more
> than 65 miles
>      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as 47
miles in
> slow driving in the
>      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced range in the
cold.
> (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car typically run as
high
> as 2-3 KW,
>       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a Leaf
> (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so two heated
> seats should
>      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
sufficient
> comfort in
>      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told that
heated

> seats did
>      NOT benefit the range.
> If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to know that
> heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was said
> better than I did, please let me know.
>
> -- Larry Gales
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> >
> >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
> >> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power needs.
> >> According to this reference:
> >>
> >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> light.**html<http
> >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> >>
> >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> >>
> >
> > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it include
> > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than one
case.

> > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp is
> the H4:
> >
> http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> ite
> > mid=
> >
> **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> S<http://ww
> >
> w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&i
> te
> > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> >
> >
> >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
> >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
> >> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does
> >> not appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at least
> >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated
> >> seats does not seem large.
> >>
> >
> > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a
> > Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so
> > why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making
> > this assumption but never attempt to quantify it, and I find it
> > frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods whether it is intentional
or

> not.
> >
> > Cory
> >
> >
> >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >>
> >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> >>
> >>    http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-
> lea
> >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> >>
> >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> >> cost-led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> >> >
> >>
> >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
> >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> >>
> >>
> >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> >>
> >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> >>
> >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> >>            headlights would
> >>            have much of an effect. While the average incandescent
> >> headlight
> >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf
> >> has)
> >>
> >>
> >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
> >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> >>        incandescent.
> >>
> >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
> >>            cold weather
> >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> >>
> >>
> >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> >>        measurements or
> >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> >>
> >>        Cory
> >>
> >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> >>
> >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> >>            comfort while
> >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat for
> >>            2 seats:
> >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I was
> >>            told by
> >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
> >>            still don't
> >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although
> >>            one person
> >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might take some
> >>            AC).
> >>
> >>            -- Larry Gales
> >>
> >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
> >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
> >>
> >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range are
> >>            directly and
> >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use
> >> of the
> >>            headlights.
> >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
Seattle

> >>            winters --
> >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
> >>            temperature
> >>            range
> >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery
> >>            temperature
> >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that
> >> charge
> >>            option, so
> >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> >>            charge. What
> >>            I am
> >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost
> >>            all of
> >>            that is
> >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure these
> >>            things out
> >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
> >>            shows you
> >>            exactly
> >>            where your power is going. The other problem that people
> >> need to
> >>            aware of
> >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't
> >>            check
> >>            your tire
> >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures
> >>            go down
> >>            during
> >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
> >>            time, so if
> >>            you see
> >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this
> >>            technology
> >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires. The
> >>            Leaf as a
> >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have
put

> >>            enough air
> >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> >>            gassers, this
> >>            means
> >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger percentage
> >>            loss in
> >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> >> important now,
> >>            because EVs
> >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
> >>            issue is
> >>            really no
> >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
> >>            pressures at
> >>            least
> >>            once a month.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New Forums are
> > at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf If you wish to unsubscribe from this
> > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > unsubscribe seva This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120227/414f2ed5/a
> ttachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Larry Gales
Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some means
of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of the car.

-- Larry

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Mike Nickerson <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Larry,
>
> I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).  However, in
> my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety as
> driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger comfort, but
> not the safety.
>
> By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and defogging
> the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is only down to the
> 40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally got me
> to install my heater this winter.
>
> Mike
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Larry Gales
> > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> > To: SEVA
> > Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> >
> > I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here is the
> > situation:
> >
> > (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer significant
> range
> > reductions
> >      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf at no
> more
> > than 65 miles
> >      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as 47
> miles in
> > slow driving in the
> >      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced range in
> the
> cold.
> > (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car typically run
> as
> high
> > as 2-3 KW,
> >       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a Leaf
> > (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so two
> heated
> > seats should
> >      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> > (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
> sufficient
> > comfort in
> >      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> > (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told that
> heated
> > seats did
> >      NOT benefit the range.
> > If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to know that
> > heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was said
> > better than I did, please let me know.
> >
> > -- Larry Gales
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
> > >> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power needs.
> > >> According to this reference:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> > light.**html<http
> > >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> > >>
> > >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> > >>
> > >
> > > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it include
> > > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than one
> case.
> > > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp
> is
> > the H4:
> > >
> > http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> > ite
> > > mid=
> > >
> > **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> > S<http://ww
> > >
> > w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&i
> > te
> > > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> > >
> > >
> > >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
> > >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
> > >> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does
> > >> not appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at least
> > >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated
> > >> seats does not seem large.
> > >>
> > >
> > > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a
> > > Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so
> > > why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making
> > > this assumption but never attempt to quantify it, and I find it
> > > frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods whether it is
> intentional
> or
> > not.
> > >
> > > Cory
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> > >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> > >>
> > >>    http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-
> > lea
> > >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> > >>
> > >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > >> cost-led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> > >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
> > >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> > >>
> > >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > >>
> > >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> > >>            headlights would
> > >>            have much of an effect. While the average incandescent
> > >> headlight
> > >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the Leaf
> > >> has)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL). Also,
> > >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> > >>        incandescent.
> > >>
> > >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
> > >>            cold weather
> > >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> > >>        measurements or
> > >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> > >>
> > >>        Cory
> > >>
> > >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> > >>
> > >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> > >>            comfort while
> > >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat
> for
> > >>            2 seats:
> > >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I
> was
> > >>            told by
> > >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
> > >>            still don't
> > >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather (although
> > >>            one person
> > >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might take
> some
> > >>            AC).
> > >>
> > >>            -- Larry Gales
> > >>
> > >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <[hidden email]
> > >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
> > >>
> > >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range
> are
> > >>            directly and
> > >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use
> > >> of the
> > >>            headlights.
> > >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
> Seattle
> > >>            winters --
> > >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
> > >>            temperature
> > >>            range
> > >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the battery
> > >>            temperature
> > >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that
> > >> charge
> > >>            option, so
> > >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> > >>            charge. What
> > >>            I am
> > >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and almost
> > >>            all of
> > >>            that is
> > >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure
> these
> > >>            things out
> > >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
> > >>            shows you
> > >>            exactly
> > >>            where your power is going. The other problem that people
> > >> need to
> > >>            aware of
> > >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then don't
> > >>            check
> > >>            your tire
> > >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire pressures
> > >>            go down
> > >>            during
> > >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
> > >>            time, so if
> > >>            you see
> > >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god this
> > >>            technology
> > >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires.
> The
> > >>            Leaf as a
> > >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you have
> put
> > >>            enough air
> > >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> > >>            gassers, this
> > >>            means
> > >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger
> percentage
> > >>            loss in
> > >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> > >> important now,
> > >>            because EVs
> > >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
> > >>            issue is
> > >>            really no
> > >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
> > >>            pressures at
> > >>            least
> > >>            once a month.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New Forums are
> > > at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf If you wish to unsubscribe from this
> > > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > > unsubscribe seva This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > ttachment.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Jukka Järvinen-2
I've been using the charging inefficiencies (air cooled charger) to heat
the cabin. When it's cold enough the air humidity drops down enough so the
fogging reduces. To keep windows open do not require 3 kW. Maybe one third
of that. Some heat is absorbed by the vehicle interiors over night and it
seems to help somewhat.

When it's only a bit cold (+5 to -3 C) and misty.. that is the hardest
situation.

When it's cold enough (< -20C) you wear enough clothes so heating cabin to
summer numbers is not pleasant. Also the clothing keeps the moisture inside
the clothing and only breathing forms the ice to the windows.

Big mistake is to turn heat on full and bring all the snow on the boots
inside.

If you did not yet see the 'coolest experiment in the world' clip check it
now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkuIbourTEo

There are technologies to work with. Current automotive or household
solutions do not go far enough to solve these issues. They have not been
required to. I feel there's some room for good innovations :)

Lithium cells do not loose capacity in cold. Their efficiency drops if not
used in optimal way. Most of the dropped range is from insufficient design
work or implementation from the OEM.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2012/2/28 Larry Gales <[hidden email]>

> Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some means
> of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of the car.
>
> -- Larry
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Mike Nickerson <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).  However,
> in
> > my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety as
> > driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger comfort,
> but
> > not the safety.
> >
> > By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and defogging
> > the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is only down to
> the
> > 40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally got
> me
> > to install my heater this winter.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > > Behalf Of Larry Gales
> > > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> > > To: SEVA
> > > Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> > >
> > > I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here is
> the
> > > situation:
> > >
> > > (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer significant
> > range
> > > reductions
> > >      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf at
> no
> > more
> > > than 65 miles
> > >      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as 47
> > miles in
> > > slow driving in the
> > >      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced range in
> > the
> > cold.
> > > (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car typically run
> > as
> > high
> > > as 2-3 KW,
> > >       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a Leaf
> > > (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so two
> > heated
> > > seats should
> > >      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> > > (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
> > sufficient
> > > comfort in
> > >      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> > > (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told that
> > heated
> > > seats did
> > >      NOT benefit the range.
> > > If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to know
> that
> > > heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was said
> > > better than I did, please let me know.
> > >
> > > -- Larry Gales
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
> > > >> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power
> needs.
> > > >> According to this reference:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> > > light.**html<http
> > > >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> > > >>
> > > >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it
> include
> > > > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than
> one
> > case.
> > > > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > > > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp
> > is
> > > the H4:
> > > >
> > > http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> > > ite
> > > > mid=
> > > >
> > > **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> > > S<http://ww
> > > >
> > > w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&i
> > > te
> > > > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > > > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
> > > >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
> > > >> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does
> > > >> not appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at
> least
> > > >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated
> > > >> seats does not seem large.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a
> > > > Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so
> > > > why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making
> > > > this assumption but never attempt to quantify it, and I find it
> > > > frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods whether it is
> > intentional
> > or
> > > not.
> > > >
> > > > Cory
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> > > >>
> > > >>    http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-
> > > lea
> > > >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> > > >>
> > > >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-led-headlights/<
> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> > > >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
> > > >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> > > >>            headlights would
> > > >>            have much of an effect. While the average incandescent
> > > >> headlight
> > > >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the
> Leaf
> > > >> has)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL).
> Also,
> > > >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> > > >>        incandescent.
> > > >>
> > > >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
> > > >>            cold weather
> > > >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> > > >>        measurements or
> > > >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> > > >>
> > > >>        Cory
> > > >>
> > > >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> > > >>
> > > >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> > > >>            comfort while
> > > >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat
> > for
> > > >>            2 seats:
> > > >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I
> > was
> > > >>            told by
> > > >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
> > > >>            still don't
> > > >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather
> (although
> > > >>            one person
> > > >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might take
> > some
> > > >>            AC).
> > > >>
> > > >>            -- Larry Gales
> > > >>
> > > >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <
> [hidden email]
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
> > > >>
> > > >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range
> > are
> > > >>            directly and
> > > >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use
> > > >> of the
> > > >>            headlights.
> > > >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
> > Seattle
> > > >>            winters --
> > > >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            range
> > > >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the
> battery
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that
> > > >> charge
> > > >>            option, so
> > > >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> > > >>            charge. What
> > > >>            I am
> > > >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and
> almost
> > > >>            all of
> > > >>            that is
> > > >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure
> > these
> > > >>            things out
> > > >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
> > > >>            shows you
> > > >>            exactly
> > > >>            where your power is going. The other problem that people
> > > >> need to
> > > >>            aware of
> > > >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then
> don't
> > > >>            check
> > > >>            your tire
> > > >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire
> pressures
> > > >>            go down
> > > >>            during
> > > >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
> > > >>            time, so if
> > > >>            you see
> > > >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god
> this
> > > >>            technology
> > > >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires.
> > The
> > > >>            Leaf as a
> > > >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you
> have
> > put
> > > >>            enough air
> > > >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> > > >>            gassers, this
> > > >>            means
> > > >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger
> > percentage
> > > >>            loss in
> > > >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> > > >> important now,
> > > >>            because EVs
> > > >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
> > > >>            issue is
> > > >>            really no
> > > >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
> > > >>            pressures at
> > > >>            least
> > > >>            once a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > > > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New Forums
> are
> > > > at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf If you wish to unsubscribe from
> this
> > > > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > > > unsubscribe seva This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry Gales
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> > > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > > |
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> > _______________________________________________
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> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
On 27 Feb 2012 at 23:39, Larry Gales wrote:

> It would be nice to find some means of defogging the windows without
> heating up the entire inside of the car.

Around 1965 or so, before automakers began attaching thin printed heating
grids to backlights, at least one of them (GM?) used a conductive coating on
the entire window.  IIRC, they didn't make any attempt to use it for the
windshield, because it wasn't fully transparent.  Maybe with more modern
materials, the transparency of such a critter could be improved.  

Come to that, didn't the Pivco Citibees have something of the sort for
windshield defrosting?  I can't find any documentation on that now, alas.  
Is there anyone on the list who worked on those cars for the Alameda Station
Car project back in the mid-1990s?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
There is electrically heated glass, where they run current through the
sputtered tin oxide low-e coating on the glass -- I've seen it used for
very high end windows in houses, but I don't see any reason it couldn't be
adapted to car windows. IIRC, it was in the range of 7 to 10 watts per
square foot, so a car windshield might take 150 watts or so?

Z

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Larry Gales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some means
> of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of the car.
>
> -- Larry
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Mike Nickerson <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).  However,
> in
> > my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety as
> > driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger comfort,
> but
> > not the safety.
> >
> > By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and defogging
> > the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is only down to
> the
> > 40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally got
> me
> > to install my heater this winter.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > > Behalf Of Larry Gales
> > > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> > > To: SEVA
> > > Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> > >
> > > I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here is
> the
> > > situation:
> > >
> > > (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer significant
> > range
> > > reductions
> > >      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf at
> no
> > more
> > > than 65 miles
> > >      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as 47
> > miles in
> > > slow driving in the
> > >      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced range in
> > the
> > cold.
> > > (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car typically run
> > as
> > high
> > > as 2-3 KW,
> > >       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a Leaf
> > > (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so two
> > heated
> > > seats should
> > >      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> > > (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
> > sufficient
> > > comfort in
> > >      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> > > (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told that
> > heated
> > > seats did
> > >      NOT benefit the range.
> > > If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to know
> that
> > > heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was said
> > > better than I did, please let me know.
> > >
> > > -- Larry Gales
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED headlights
> > > >> (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have similar power
> needs.
> > > >> According to this reference:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> > > light.**html<http
> > > >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> > > >>
> > > >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it
> include
> > > > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more than
> one
> > case.
> > > > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > > > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight lamp
> > is
> > > the H4:
> > > >
> > > http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> > > ite
> > > > mid=
> > > >
> > > **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> > > S<http://ww
> > > >
> > > w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080&i
> > > te
> > > > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > > > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I must
> > > >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners, but I
> > > >> still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given that it does
> > > >> not appear to be the battery (except at very low temps, and (at
> least
> > > >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for heated
> > > >> seats does not seem large.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told by a
> > > > Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold weather so
> > > > why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter? You keep making
> > > > this assumption but never attempt to quantify it, and I find it
> > > > frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods whether it is
> > intentional
> > or
> > > not.
> > > >
> > > > Cory
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> > > >>
> > > >>    http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-nissan-
> > > lea
> > > >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> > > >>
> > > >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-led-headlights/<
> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> > > >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
> > > >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> > > >>            headlights would
> > > >>            have much of an effect. While the average incandescent
> > > >> headlight
> > > >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what the
> Leaf
> > > >> has)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL).
> Also,
> > > >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> > > >>        incandescent.
> > > >>
> > > >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
> > > >>            cold weather
> > > >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> > > >>        measurements or
> > > >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> > > >>
> > > >>        Cory
> > > >>
> > > >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> > > >>
> > > >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> > > >>            comfort while
> > > >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50 watts/seat
> > for
> > > >>            2 seats:
> > > >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain). But I
> > was
> > > >>            told by
> > > >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
> > > >>            still don't
> > > >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather
> (although
> > > >>            one person
> > > >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might take
> > some
> > > >>            AC).
> > > >>
> > > >>            -- Larry Gales
> > > >>
> > > >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <
> [hidden email]
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter break]
> > > >>
> > > >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in range
> > are
> > > >>            directly and
> > > >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and increased use
> > > >> of the
> > > >>            headlights.
> > > >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
> > Seattle
> > > >>            winters --
> > > >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            range
> > > >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the
> battery
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using that
> > > >> charge
> > > >>            option, so
> > > >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> > > >>            charge. What
> > > >>            I am
> > > >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and
> almost
> > > >>            all of
> > > >>            that is
> > > >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily figure
> > these
> > > >>            things out
> > > >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
> > > >>            shows you
> > > >>            exactly
> > > >>            where your power is going. The other problem that people
> > > >> need to
> > > >>            aware of
> > > >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and then
> don't
> > > >>            check
> > > >>            your tire
> > > >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire
> pressures
> > > >>            go down
> > > >>            during
> > > >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
> > > >>            time, so if
> > > >>            you see
> > > >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my god
> this
> > > >>            technology
> > > >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires.
> > The
> > > >>            Leaf as a
> > > >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when you
> have
> > put
> > > >>            enough air
> > > >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> > > >>            gassers, this
> > > >>            means
> > > >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger
> > percentage
> > > >>            loss in
> > > >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> > > >> important now,
> > > >>            because EVs
> > > >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
> > > >>            issue is
> > > >>            really no
> > > >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
> > > >>            pressures at
> > > >>            least
> > > >>            once a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > > > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New Forums
> are
> > > > at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf If you wish to unsubscribe from
> this
> > > > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > > > unsubscribe seva This message was built for larry.gales=gmail.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry Gales
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > > _______________________________________________
> > > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > > |
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Peri Hartman
What about modifying an A/C unit that recaptures the waste heat and reheats
the treated air?  (Maybe this exists.)  I would think this would take less
heat than using heat and A/C in the traditional way and would have the added
benefit that the cabin air would be dried out without significantly lowering
the temperature.  Of course, you could still add heat if you want.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: 28 February, 2012 5:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

There is electrically heated glass, where they run current through the
sputtered tin oxide low-e coating on the glass -- I've seen it used for very
high end windows in houses, but I don't see any reason it couldn't be
adapted to car windows. IIRC, it was in the range of 7 to 10 watts per
square foot, so a car windshield might take 150 watts or so?

Z

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Larry Gales <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some
> means of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of the
car.

>
> -- Larry
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Mike Nickerson
> <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).  
> > However,
> in
> > my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety
> > as driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger
> > comfort,
> but
> > not the safety.
> >
> > By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and
> > defogging the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is
> > only down to
> the
> > 40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally
> > got
> me
> > to install my heater this winter.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > On Behalf Of Larry Gales
> > > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> > > To: SEVA
> > > Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> > >
> > > I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here
> > > is
> the
> > > situation:
> > >
> > > (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer
> > > significant
> > range
> > > reductions
> > >      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf
> > > at
> no
> > more
> > > than 65 miles
> > >      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as
> > > 47
> > miles in
> > > slow driving in the
> > >      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced
> > > range in
> > the
> > cold.
> > > (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car
> > > typically run
> > as
> > high
> > > as 2-3 KW,
> > >       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a
> > > Leaf
> > > (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so
> > > two
> > heated
> > > seats should
> > >      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> > > (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
> > sufficient
> > > comfort in
> > >      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> > > (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told
> > > that
> > heated
> > > seats did
> > >      NOT benefit the range.
> > > If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to
> > > know
> that
> > > heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was
> > > said better than I did, please let me know.
> > >
> > > -- Larry Gales
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED
> > > >> headlights (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have
> > > >> similar power
> needs.
> > > >> According to this reference:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> > > light.**html<http
> > > >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> > > >>
> > > >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it
> include
> > > > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more
> > > > than
> one
> > case.
> > > > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > > > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight
> > > > lamp
> > is
> > > the H4:
> > > >
> > > http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> > > ite
> > > > mid=
> > > >
> > > **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> > > S<http://ww
> > > >
> > > w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080
> > > &i
> > > te
> > > > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > > > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I
> > > > must
> > > >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners,
> > > >> but I still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given
> > > >> that it does not appear to be the battery (except at very low
> > > >> temps, and (at
> least
> > > >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for
> > > >> heated seats does not seem large.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told
> > > > by a Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold
> > > > weather so why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter?
> > > > You keep making this assumption but never attempt to quantify
> > > > it, and I find it frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods
> > > > whether it is
> > intentional
> > or
> > > not.
> > > >
> > > > Cory
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> > > >>
> > > >>    
> > > >> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-niss
> > > >> an-
> > > lea
> > > >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> > > >>
> > > >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > >> cost-led-headlights/<
> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> > > >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a similar
> > > >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> > > >>            headlights would
> > > >>            have much of an effect. While the average
> > > >> incandescent headlight
> > > >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what
> > > >> the
> Leaf
> > > >> has)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL).
> Also,
> > > >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> > > >>        incandescent.
> > > >>
> > > >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy in
> > > >>            cold weather
> > > >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> > > >>        measurements or
> > > >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> > > >>
> > > >>        Cory
> > > >>
> > > >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> > > >>
> > > >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> > > >>            comfort while
> > > >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50
> > > >> watts/seat
> > for
> > > >>            2 seats:
> > > >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain).
> > > >> But I
> > was
> > > >>            told by
> > > >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so I
> > > >>            still don't
> > > >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather
> (although
> > > >>            one person
> > > >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might
> > > >> take
> > some
> > > >>            AC).
> > > >>
> > > >>            -- Larry Gales
> > > >>
> > > >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <
> [hidden email]
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter
> > > >> break]
> > > >>
> > > >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in
> > > >> range
> > are
> > > >>            directly and
> > > >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and
> > > >> increased use of the
> > > >>            headlights.
> > > >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
> > Seattle
> > > >>            winters --
> > > >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the "happy"
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            range
> > > >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the
> battery
> > > >>            temperature
> > > >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using
> > > >> that charge
> > > >>            option, so
> > > >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> > > >>            charge. What
> > > >>            I am
> > > >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and
> almost
> > > >>            all of
> > > >>            that is
> > > >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily
> > > >> figure
> > these
> > > >>            things out
> > > >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of which
> > > >>            shows you
> > > >>            exactly
> > > >>            where your power is going. The other problem that
> > > >> people need to
> > > >>            aware of
> > > >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and
> > > >> then
> don't
> > > >>            check
> > > >>            your tire
> > > >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire
> pressures
> > > >>            go down
> > > >>            during
> > > >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak over
> > > >>            time, so if
> > > >>            you see
> > > >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my
> > > >> god
> this
> > > >>            technology
> > > >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your tires.
> > The
> > > >>            Leaf as a
> > > >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when
> > > >> you
> have
> > put
> > > >>            enough air
> > > >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> > > >>            gassers, this
> > > >>            means
> > > >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger
> > percentage
> > > >>            loss in
> > > >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> > > >> important now,
> > > >>            because EVs
> > > >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire pressure
> > > >>            issue is
> > > >>            really no
> > > >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your tire
> > > >>            pressures at
> > > >>            least
> > > >>            once a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > > > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New
> > > > Forums
> are
> > > > at http://www.seattleeva.org/smf If you wish to unsubscribe from
> this
> > > > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > > > unsubscribe seva This message was built for
> > > > larry.gales=gmail.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Larry Gales
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Roland Wiench
One trick I learn from a old geezer truck driver, is to keep the same
temperature on both sides of the glass to keep it from fogging and frosted
up.

To do this, I gutted out the whole interior of my EV including all the
heating and A/C duct work.  Rework the ductwork and the damper doors to
either bring in outside air or heat the outside air or reheat the circulated
inside air.

I use the existing hot water heater that was use before.  The unit I use is
a diesel engine heater which I got from a trucking supplier. These heaters
come in 1000 to 2000 watt either at 120 or 240 vac.  I use the 1000 watt at
120 volt.  It has a thermostat control where I can adjust it from off to 190
F.

I only use this unit for defrosting which I can maintain the same
temperature on both sides of the windshield.  If its 0 F., then I can adjust
the damper doors to bring in 0 f. to the inside of the glass.  If the glass
is ice up, which is cause by the EV setting awhile outside cause by the sun
heating up the interior and then the exterior cooling down, it can initially
blast it with a higher temperature and then keep backing off on the heater
temperature to keep it from fogging up.

In addition to the defrosting heater, I use two cab heater which I also got
from the same trucker supplier.  These are mounted under the dash on the
back firewall with the back of the heater about 2 inches from the fire wall
on the driver and passenger side.

Running one heater adjusted to about 600 watts as a preheater before leaving
with the EV will heat the whole interior to about 80 F.  I use a transfer
switch that the heater units can either run on commercial power or from on
board power.

Most of the time, it only takes 30 to 50 F defroster heat temperature to
keep the windshield from fogging up.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs


> What about modifying an A/C unit that recaptures the waste heat and
> reheats
> the treated air?  (Maybe this exists.)  I would think this would take less
> heat than using heat and A/C in the traditional way and would have the
> added
> benefit that the cabin air would be dried out without significantly
> lowering
> the temperature.  Of course, you could still add heat if you want.
>
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: 28 February, 2012 5:37 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
>
> There is electrically heated glass, where they run current through the
> sputtered tin oxide low-e coating on the glass -- I've seen it used for
> very
> high end windows in houses, but I don't see any reason it couldn't be
> adapted to car windows. IIRC, it was in the range of 7 to 10 watts per
> square foot, so a car windshield might take 150 watts or so?
>
> Z
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Larry Gales <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some
> > means of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of
> > the
> car.
> >
> > -- Larry
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Mike Nickerson
> > <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Larry,
> > >
> > > I certainly wasn't at the meeting (I live outside Boise, ID).
> > > However,
> > in
> > > my experience, cab heating and climate control is as much for safety
> > > as driver comfort.  Heated seats would cover driver and passenger
> > > comfort,
> > but
> > > not the safety.
> > >
> > > By safety, I'm talking about defrosting a frozen windshield and
> > > defogging the windshield and other windows.  Even if the weather is
> > > only down to
> > the
> > > 40s, your breath can still fog up the windows.  That is what finally
> > > got
> > me
> > > to install my heater this winter.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > > On Behalf Of Larry Gales
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:12 PM
> > > > To: SEVA
> > > > Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs
> > > >
> > > > I am most certainly not trying to spread false information.  Here
> > > > is
> > the
> > > > situation:
> > > >
> > > > (1) Nearly all reports I have read states that EVs suffer
> > > > significant
> > > range
> > > > reductions
> > > >      in cold weather:  Consumer Reports puts the range of the Leaf
> > > > at
> > no
> > > more
> > > > than 65 miles
> > > >      in cold weather, Nissan's own test indicate a range as low as
> > > > 47
> > > miles in
> > > > slow driving in the
> > > >      cold, I have seen many reports of iMiev's having reduced
> > > > range in
> > > the
> > > cold.
> > > > (2) Those heaters that heat the whole interior of the car
> > > > typically run
> > > as
> > > high
> > > > as 2-3 KW,
> > > >       so 3 hours at 3 KW would consume more than 1/3 range of  a
> > > > Leaf
> > > > (3) On the other hand, seat warmers are about 50 watts/seat, so
> > > > two
> > > heated
> > > > seats should
> > > >      consume 20-30 times less energy in very cold weather
> > > > (4) My preliminary conclusion was that heated seats should provide
> > > sufficient
> > > > comfort in
> > > >      cold weather with very little effect on the range
> > > > (5) So I was very surprised at the SEVA meeting when I was told
> > > > that
> > > heated
> > > > seats did
> > > >      NOT benefit the range.
> > > > If I misheard at the SEVA meeting, than i would be delighted to
> > > > know
> > that
> > > > heated seats solve the problem, so if someone remembers what was
> > > > said better than I did, please let me know.
> > > >
> > > > -- Larry Gales
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 02/26/2012 06:03 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Well, I'm surprised at the statement that Halogen and LED
> > > > >> headlights (which the Leaf has, at least for low beams) have
> > > > >> similar power
> > needs.
> > > > >> According to this reference:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.ehow.com/facts_**5608302_halogen-vs_-led-
> > > > light.**html<http
> > > > >> ://www.ehow.com/facts_5608302_halogen-vs_-led-light.html>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> LEDs are 75% more efficient than Halogens.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > eHow is a content spam site and not to be trusted, nor does it
> > include
> > > > > any actual figures, nor is a generic phrase applicable to more
> > > > > than
> > one
> > > case.
> > > > > My link referenced the LED replacement going into the Leaf and
> > > > > specifies it draws 50W for both. For example, a common headlight
> > > > > lamp
> > > is
> > > > the H4:
> > > > >
> > > > http://www.iowa80.com/**DirectionsWEB/webcart_**productDisplay.php?
> > > > ite
> > > > > mid=
> > > > >
> > > > **07080&itemdesc=H4+HALOGEN+**REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATT
> > > > S<http://ww
> > > > >
> > > > w.iowa80.com/DirectionsWEB/webcart_productDisplay.php?itemid=07080
> > > > &i
> > > > te
> > > > > mdesc=H4+HALOGEN+REPLACEMENT+BULB+60%2F55+WATTS>
> > > > > which draw 55W each. HID lamps are slightly more efficient still.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  As far as measurements go, I don't have access to a Leaf, so I
> > > > > must
> > > > >> reply on the literature or statements by knowledgeable owners,
> > > > >> but I still don't have a feeling for the energy drain given
> > > > >> that it does not appear to be the battery (except at very low
> > > > >> temps, and (at
> > least
> > > > >> if the Leaf can select which seats to heat) the energy for
> > > > >> heated seats does not seem large.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > What energy drain? IIRC, at the last SEVA meeting you were told
> > > > > by a Leaf owner that he can drive his Leaf just as far in cold
> > > > > weather so why are you assuming it is so much worse in winter?
> > > > > You keep making this assumption but never attempt to quantify
> > > > > it, and I find it frustrating that you keep spreading falsehoods
> > > > > whether it is
> > > intentional
> > > or
> > > > not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cory
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Cory Cross <[hidden email]
> > > > >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>    Well, let me correct the LED thing:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/**__new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > > >> cost-__led-headlights/<http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/__new-niss
> > > > >> an-
> > > > lea
> > > > >> f-gets-low-cost-__led-headlights/>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>    <http://crispgreen.com/2010/**10/new-nissan-leaf-gets-low-**
> > > > >> cost-led-headlights/<
> > http://crispgreen.com/2010/10/new-nissan-leaf-ge
> > > > >> ts-low-cost-led-headlights/>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>    Apparently it does have LED low beams. They still draw a
> > > > >> similar
> > > > >>    amount of power to the halogen lamps.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>    On 02/26/2012 03:42 PM, Cory Cross wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>        On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Larry Gales wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            Thanks for your reply. I am surprised, however, that
> > > > >>            headlights would
> > > > >>            have much of an effect. While the average
> > > > >> incandescent headlight
> > > > >>            consumes 55 watts, the average LED (which is what
> > > > >> the
> > Leaf
> > > > >> has)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>        No car has LED headlights (though some may have LED DRL).
> > Also,
> > > > >>        headlights are typically referred to as halogen and not
> > > > >>        incandescent.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            Now I always thought that the main load on the energy
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>            cold weather
> > > > >>            was heating the inside of the car,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>        Rather than just guessing again, why don't you do some
> > > > >>        measurements or
> > > > >>        find some primary literature for reference?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>        Cory
> > > > >>
> > > > >>        and so I assumed that electrically
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            headed seats and steering wheel would provide adequate
> > > > >>            comfort while
> > > > >>            dramatically cutting the energy drain (say 50
> > > > >> watts/seat
> > > for
> > > > >>            2 seats:
> > > > >>            even at 15 mph that is less than 7 wh/mile drain).
> > > > >> But I
> > > was
> > > > >>            told by
> > > > >>            someone who has heated seats that this is not true, so
> > > > >> I
> > > > >>            still don't
> > > > >>            know why the Leaf is so affected by cold weather
> > (although
> > > > >>            one person
> > > > >>            noted you have to defog the windows and that might
> > > > >> take
> > > some
> > > > >>            AC).
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            -- Larry Gales
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 7:13 AM, Jim Adcock <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > > >>            <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            [Sorry for a late reply, but just back from winter
> > > > >> break]
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            What I see on my Leaf is that winter reductions in
> > > > >> range
> > > are
> > > > >>            directly and
> > > > >>            simply related to use of the heat pump, and
> > > > >> increased use of the
> > > > >>            headlights.
> > > > >>            The battery pack is *not* reducing range due to "cold"
> > > Seattle
> > > > >>            winters --
> > > > >>            the "cold" Seattle winters are *well* within the
> > > > >> "happy"
> > > > >>            temperature
> > > > >>            range
> > > > >>            of the battery pack, as one can easily see with the
> > battery
> > > > >>            temperature
> > > > >>            gauge. I do try to remember to pre-heat my car using
> > > > >> that charge
> > > > >>            option, so
> > > > >>            that I am not having to heat a cold car on the battery
> > > > >>            charge. What
> > > > >>            I am
> > > > >>            seeing in practice is a 10% reduction in range, and
> > almost
> > > > >>            all of
> > > > >>            that is
> > > > >>            going towards heating the cabin. One can easily
> > > > >> figure
> > > these
> > > > >>            things out
> > > > >>            using the various display options in Leaf, one of
> > > > >> which
> > > > >>            shows you
> > > > >>            exactly
> > > > >>            where your power is going. The other problem that
> > > > >> people need to
> > > > >>            aware of
> > > > >>            is that if you inflate your tires in summer, and
> > > > >> then
> > don't
> > > > >>            check
> > > > >>            your tire
> > > > >>            pressures until the following summer, well, tire
> > pressures
> > > > >>            go down
> > > > >>            during
> > > > >>            winter due to the cold, *and* all tires slowly leak
> > > > >> over
> > > > >>            time, so if
> > > > >>            you see
> > > > >>            your EV range going down instead of saying "oh my
> > > > >> god
> > this
> > > > >>            technology
> > > > >>            doesn't work" simply try putting some air in your
> > > > >> tires.
> > > The
> > > > >>            Leaf as a
> > > > >>            Euro-style "beep" system built-in to tell you when
> > > > >> you
> > have
> > > put
> > > > >>            enough air
> > > > >>            in your tires. Since EVs are MUCH more efficient than
> > > > >>            gassers, this
> > > > >>            means
> > > > >>            that underinflated tires results in a MUCH larger
> > > percentage
> > > > >>            loss in
> > > > >>            efficiency! Like tire pressure is 5-10 times more
> > > > >> important now,
> > > > >>            because EVs
> > > > >>            have 5-10 times more efficiency so now the tire
> > > > >> pressure
> > > > >>            issue is
> > > > >>            really no
> > > > >>            joke. And in *any* car you should be checking your
> > > > >> tire
> > > > >>            pressures at
> > > > >>            least
> > > > >>            once a month.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------**-----------------------------
> > > > > Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org Our New
> > > > > Forums
> > are
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> > this
> > > > > mailing, send mail to [hidden email] with a subject of:
> > > > > unsubscribe seva This message was built for
> > > > > larry.gales=gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Larry Gales
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buy yer ev now, support yer children

robert winfield


an interesting comment from the Diane Rehm show 88.5 fm, wash dc, Tues am that seems to reinforce the point of the we are maxed out on production and cannot extract more no matter what, and how China and India will suck up everything (unless they electrify their vehicles) <--see ev related :)
---------------------------------------snip----------------------------------------
Jeffrey Brown wrote:
I think that we need to differentiate between long term and short term factors that affect crude oil prices. In my opinion, average annual oil prices give us the best indication of fundamental long term supply and demand factors. And of course, Brent is a far better indicator of global prices than WTI.
We have seen two annual Brent crude oil price doublings since 2002, from $25 in 2002 to $55 in 2005, and then from $55 in 2005 to $111 in 2011.
In response to the first price doubling, we did of course see a substantial increase across the board in total liquids production (inclusive of biofuels), in total petroleum liquids, in crude + condensate (C+C), and in Global Net Exports (GNE) and in Available Net Exports (ANE). GNE and ANE numbers are calculated in terms of total petroleum liquids. ANE are defined as GNE less China and India’s combined net oil imports.
In response to the second Brent crude oil price doubling (2005 to 2011), we have so far seen a very slow rate of increase in total liquids production (up 0.5%/year from 2005 to 2010), virtually flat total petroleum liquids and virtually flat C+C production (through 2010), and a 1.3%/year and 2.8%/year respective decline rate in GNE & ANE (through 2010).
I estimate that there are about 157 net oil importing countries in the world. If we extrapolate the Chindia region’s rate of increase in their combined net oil imports, as a percentage of GNE in 19 years just two of these oil importing countries--China & India--would consume 100% of GNE.

The dominant trend we are seeing is that the US, and most other developed oil importing OECD countries, are being gradually priced out of the global market for exported oil, as annual global (Brent) crude oil prices doubled from 2005 to 2011.
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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Rolls Royce's have had this for yonks, Renault and Citroen too (I believe) but not as long - others use a grid of extremely fine wires (only just visible to naked eye) - downside is it blocks radio signals so external antennae are required for all your satnavs, phones etc.

MW


On 28 Feb 2012, at 09:35, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 27 Feb 2012 at 23:39, Larry Gales wrote:
>
>> It would be nice to find some means of defogging the windows without
>> heating up the entire inside of the car.
>
> Around 1965 or so, before automakers began attaching thin printed heating
> grids to backlights, at least one of them (GM?) used a conductive coating on
> the entire window.  IIRC, they didn't make any attempt to use it for the
> windshield, because it wasn't fully transparent.  Maybe with more modern
> materials, the transparency of such a critter could be improved.  
>
> Come to that, didn't the Pivco Citibees have something of the sort for
> windshield defrosting?  I can't find any documentation on that now, alas.  
> Is there anyone on the list who worked on those cars for the Alameda Station
> Car project back in the mid-1990s?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Robert Johnston
On 28/02/2012 10:36 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Rolls Royce's have had this for yonks, Renault and Citroen too (I
> believe) but not as long - others use a grid of extremely fine wires
> (only just visible to naked eye) - downside is it blocks radio
> signals so external antennae are required for all your satnavs,
> phones etc.

Yes, newer buses tend to have this too. A hair-thin grid of wire
embedded in the front windscreen. Given the huge size of their windows,
and the frequency with which the front doors are opened, hot-air
demisting tends to be a lot less effective. It does have the
disadvantage of making the front window part of a Faraday cage, but it
works very well.

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Larry Gales
On 2/28/2012 1:39 AM, Larry Gales wrote:
> Yes, I am aware of the fogging issue. It would be nice to find some means
> of defogging the windows without heating up the entire inside of the car.

Indium-tin oxide) is used to make glass electrically conductive yet
still transparent. It is used to make LCD displays and to heat
windshield of jet aircraft. It would be expensive to coat an entire
windshield, but it would be a way to electrically heat it without the
usual heating wires they use on rear windows.

Here's a much easier method, often used in northern climates. You stick
on a second transparent layer, forming a double-pane window. The trapped
air adds a layer of insulation, so the outside glass can be cold and the
inside layer warm so it won't fog up.

You'll see this method used on vehicles too, that happen to have flat
windows so it's easy to add the second layer.

--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!    -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Mark Grasser
Lee,
So you could buy a second windshield, space it 3/8 of an inch into the car
and seal it op good with a port one side on the bottom, other side on the
top and run argon through it for a while, job done.

Interesting.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

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Re: [seva] The effects of cold weather on EVs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Jukka Järvinen-2
On 2/28/2012 3:07 AM, Jukka Järvinen wrote:
> If you did not yet see the 'coolest experiment in the world' clip check it
> now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkuIbourTEo

Nice video, Jukka!

I wrote a post on driving my lead-acid ComutaVan EV in -20 deg. weather
about 15 years ago on the EVDL. I was c-c-c-cold! But the EV worked
fine. :-)

> There are technologies to work with... I feel there's some room for
> good innovations :)

Yes indeed! When you think about it, we already do many things to keep
our homes comfortable in winter. Houses are insulated, minimize air
leakage and drafts, have double or even triple-pane windows, use
efficient heaters, etc.

But our cars have relied on "free" infinite waste heat" from the ICE. So
they have no insulation, single pane windows, and huge amounts of air
leakage.

> Lithium cells do not loose capacity in cold. Their efficiency drops if not
> used in optimal way. Most of the dropped range is from insufficient design
> work or implementation from the OEM.

All chemical reactions slow down as the temperature drops. Lithium cells
are no exception. Even though they don't freeze, the cold reduces the
maximum charge/discharge current, and increases the internal resistance.

The obvious method is to insulate the battery boxes. This uses the waste
heat from driving and charging to keep the batteries warm. Then use
vents or fans to cool them as needed in the summer.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
        -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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