Regen Not Efficient....

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Regen Not Efficient....

Douglas A. Stansfield-2
Hello everyone,

 

Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
NEGATIVE!!

 

I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.

 

Here is his blog.

 

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it
.html#comments

 

Sincerely;

 

Douglas A. Stansfield

President

www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)

973-670-9208 (cell)

973-440-1619 (fax)

 

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS



 

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

SLPinfo.org
Actually Jack just posted a Followup and there may have been a problem with his data collection.  Regen MAY work after all.

Peter Flipsen
-----Original Message-----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:24:32
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Hello everyone,

 

Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
NEGATIVE!!

 

I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.

 

Here is his blog.

 

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it
.html#comments

 

Sincerely;

 

Douglas A. Stansfield

President

www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)

973-670-9208 (cell)

973-440-1619 (fax)

 

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS



 

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Douglas A. Stansfield-2
Well if Jack retests I will be interested in the follow up.

While I don't have regen in my EV right now since it uses a DC 9 inch spiral
wound motor, I appreciate the ability to coast since I live in a VERY hilly
area. If I was able to regen downhill it will slow me down and I will have
to expend another increase in energy consumption to push it back up the next
hill.  Whereas if I coast downhill and actually use gravity (32 feet per
second squared) that helps me pick up speed to get back up the next hill.  

I am extremely interested in seeing Jacks results.  It will be good to have
some published data on this subject as well as AC vs. DC which still
constantly comes up for discussion.

Enjoy the dialog.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 3:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Actually Jack just posted a Followup and there may have been a problem with
his data collection.  Regen MAY work after all.

Peter Flipsen
-----Original Message-----
From: "Douglas A. Stansfield" <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:24:32
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Hello everyone,

 

Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
NEGATIVE!!

 

I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.

 

Here is his blog.

 

http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it
.html#comments

 

Sincerely;

 

Douglas A. Stansfield

President

www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)

973-670-9208 (cell)

973-440-1619 (fax)

 

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS



 

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by SLPinfo.org
Thirty plus years of EV research and design by thousands of engineers all
over the world shows that regen extends range, thus improving efficiency as
measured in Wh/mi.  Now, how much, and whether that's worth the hardware and
software cost - that's another matter.  But this is the first time I've
heard of anyone suggesting that regen >reduces< efficiency or range.

Generally, when your data contradict that much established research, you
stop and look again before you publish, no?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Douglas A. Stansfield-2
David,

It is very interesting research. Using 30 year old EV technology might have
different results and since we are using different technology today it makes
sense to retest once in a while to verify our initial conclusions.  

Jack is using off the shelf current technology so I am very interested in
his results.  Especially in the same car.

This is going to be an interesting discussion.  I don't think it is a closed
issue so I welcome his research.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS






-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 5:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Thirty plus years of EV research and design by thousands of engineers all
over the world shows that regen extends range, thus improving efficiency as
measured in Wh/mi.  Now, how much, and whether that's worth the hardware and

software cost - that's another matter.  But this is the first time I've
heard of anyone suggesting that regen >reduces< efficiency or range.

Generally, when your data contradict that much established research, you
stop and look again before you publish, no?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

carrott
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
On Sun, July 25, 2010 8:24 am, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> While I don't have regen in my EV right now since it uses a DC 9 inch
> spiral
> wound motor, I appreciate the ability to coast since I live in a VERY
> hilly
> area. If I was able to regen downhill it will slow me down and I will have
> to expend another increase in energy consumption to push it back up the
> next
> hill.  Whereas if I coast downhill and actually use gravity (32 feet per
> second squared) that helps me pick up speed to get back up the next hill.

I've set up the regen on my car to operate with the brake pedal. If I
don't put my foot on the brakes, there is no regen. I can choose whether
to coast or to brake and regen. At the moment the brake pedal operates
both regen and the friction brakes and there is no part of it's travel
which activates regen exclusively. Once the car is more fully finished, I
may see if I can do something about that.


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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
Regen is why hybrids get such good mileage. If regen didn't work,
hybrids would not work.

Jack Rickard  is the same guy that advocates "bottom balancing" and
NOT using a BMS. (Possibly a useful idea for RC airplanes, but not for EVs.)

He is enthusiastic and hard working, (and has very nicely finished
conversions) but his conclusions are not based on scientific method.

This "regen is a negative" pronouncement is not any different than
the "bottom balancing" pronouncement. If you build a regen system
incorrectly and operate it incompetently _enough_, it could have a
negative effect on range. If, however, you build and operate a regen
system correctly and operate it competently, you will increase the
range of your EV. The same is true for a BMS. If you build a BMS
incorrectly enough, and/or you operate it incompetently enough, you
can harm your battery pack. If, however, you build and operate a BMS
correctly and operate it competently, then it will make your battery
pack last much much longer.

         Bill D.


At 03:24 PM 7/24/2010, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>
>
>Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
>conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
>NEGATIVE!!
>
>
>
>I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.
>
>
>
>Here is his blog.
>
>
>
>http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it
>.html#comments
>
>
>
>Sincerely;
>
>
>
>Douglas A. Stansfield
>
>President
>
>www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>
>973-875-6276 (office)
>
>973-670-9208 (cell)
>
>973-440-1619 (fax)
>
>
>
>ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

SLPinfo.org
On the other hand Jack Rikard is  trying to be somewhat systematic in testing some of the assumptions we've been making.  He may reach conclusions a bit too quickly but I admire him for his efforts.

And in this case I gained some extra respect for him because in the beginning of the episode he somewhat jokingly pretended to "fall on his sword" as a way to admit he might well have been mistaken.  No equivocating, he immediately started to talk about what his mistakes were.

Peter Flipsen
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:34:41
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Regen is why hybrids get such good mileage. If regen didn't work,
hybrids would not work.

Jack Rickard  is the same guy that advocates "bottom balancing" and
NOT using a BMS. (Possibly a useful idea for RC airplanes, but not for EVs.)

He is enthusiastic and hard working, (and has very nicely finished
conversions) but his conclusions are not based on scientific method.

This "regen is a negative" pronouncement is not any different than
the "bottom balancing" pronouncement. If you build a regen system
incorrectly and operate it incompetently _enough_, it could have a
negative effect on range. If, however, you build and operate a regen
system correctly and operate it competently, you will increase the
range of your EV. The same is true for a BMS. If you build a BMS
incorrectly enough, and/or you operate it incompetently enough, you
can harm your battery pack. If, however, you build and operate a BMS
correctly and operate it competently, then it will make your battery
pack last much much longer.

         Bill D.


At 03:24 PM 7/24/2010, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>
>
>Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
>conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
>NEGATIVE!!
>
>
>
>I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.
>
>
>
>Here is his blog.
>
>
>
>http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it
>.html#comments
>
>
>
>Sincerely;
>
>
>
>Douglas A. Stansfield
>
>President
>
>www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>
>973-875-6276 (office)
>
>973-670-9208 (cell)
>
>973-440-1619 (fax)
>
>
>
>ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
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>
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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Douglas A. Stansfield-2
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Bill,

I don't have the money to test these current systems the way that Jack has
so I am hoping he will keep testing and publishing his data.  That way, we
can all "learn" from what he is doing.  If his system is not set up
correctly, then "Uh Oh" we who are listening are all in trouble.

I haven't watched all his EVTV shows so I don't know for use how he set up
his BMS or his Regen but I trust he is working hard to make sure it is set
up correctly.

I always felt that Regen was maybe good or maybe not.  For example, my house
sits on top of a long hill so I charge my car at night and wake up in the
morning and take it for a ride.  Battery pack is full, if I had regen to
travel down the 5 mile long hill it would "overcharge" or "do nothing" if a
BMS was present because they were full.  Thus, no benefit.  Turn around and
head back home and it is pure discharge all the way up thus leaving room to
turn around and head back down so that regen can put the energy I just
consumed coming back up right back in.  Is it the same amount of energy?  I
don't know.  In Jack's figures...No.  I am fascinated by this and long to
see published results.

I feel like the old church leaders the when asked by Isaac Newton which
would fall first the Apple or the Grape if dropped at the same time.
Current thought at the time was Apple would fall faster than the Grape if
dropped from the same height at the same time.  Well, we all know now that
both fall at the same time.

Are Jacks Conclusions correct?  Time will tell on this one.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dube
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:35 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

Regen is why hybrids get such good mileage. If regen didn't work,
hybrids would not work.

Jack Rickard  is the same guy that advocates "bottom balancing" and
NOT using a BMS. (Possibly a useful idea for RC airplanes, but not for EVs.)

He is enthusiastic and hard working, (and has very nicely finished
conversions) but his conclusions are not based on scientific method.

This "regen is a negative" pronouncement is not any different than
the "bottom balancing" pronouncement. If you build a regen system
incorrectly and operate it incompetently _enough_, it could have a
negative effect on range. If, however, you build and operate a regen
system correctly and operate it competently, you will increase the
range of your EV. The same is true for a BMS. If you build a BMS
incorrectly enough, and/or you operate it incompetently enough, you
can harm your battery pack. If, however, you build and operate a BMS
correctly and operate it competently, then it will make your battery
pack last much much longer.

         Bill D.


At 03:24 PM 7/24/2010, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,
>
>
>
>Looks like Jack Rickard has done some tests of Regen in his two EV
>conversions and come to a startling realization.  That Regen is actually a
>NEGATIVE!!
>
>
>
>I'm sure the discussion list would love to talk about this subject.
>
>
>
>Here is his blog.
>
>
>
>http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-i
t

>.html#comments
>
>
>
>Sincerely;
>
>
>
>Douglas A. Stansfield
>
>President
>
>www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
>
>973-875-6276 (office)
>
>973-670-9208 (cell)
>
>973-440-1619 (fax)
>
>
>
>ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS
>
>
>
>
>
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Occam's Razor (was:Regen Not Efficient....)

Bill Dube
There is room for many ideas and opinions in science. There is a
process and a method by which the scientific community selects the
"best" explanation. The shorthand name for this process is Occam's Razor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

You, and Jack, present as "fact" ideas and theories that are contrary
to the majority opinion of those skilled in the art. When you do this
in science, you have to:
1) Show that your theory passes "Occam's Razor"
2) You need to present test results that show that your theory is
correct (and also show that the old theory is incorrect,) and provide
the details of the test that will allow anyone to repeat it and
confirm your results.
3) Someone else must repeat your tests and confirm your results.

Jack's BMS "test" was that he had trouble with a BMS he tried.
(Either it was built incorrectly or used incorrectly.) His conclusion
was "_All_ BMS will ruin your batteries because things go wrong with
them. It is better to not use any BMS."

This is like having Windows Vista crash on a netbook and conclude
that all computers are no good and it is better not to use one at all
under any circumstances. There are lots of types of computers and
lots of operating systems that work just fine. You have to understand
both how to use a computer and how to pick a "good" one. You also
have to know what operating system is suitable for what computer.

A BMS is a VERY difficult system to design. Almost without exception,
a designer's first attempt at a BMS will not work correctly. If you
get a "new" BMS from a company that has not been doing this for a
long time, then the likelihood of problems will be high. As
homebuilders, each installation is unique. The BMS products available
to us have not been tested in our exact application. We may have a
high-current cable resting on the micro-processor in the exact
"wrong" orientation, for example.

This combination of unique applications, "new" BMS designs, and
inexperienced installers can lead to troubles. I suspect that is what
Jack ran up against.

Now that the BMS suppliers for "homebuilder" EVs have enough of their
systems out there and operating, it is becoming routine to just "plug
and play" a BMS installation. This was not the case two years ago.
The suppliers are providing better products and installation
instructions. The EV builders understand the technology better too.

When folks that have been around EVs for years say, "Regen works just
fine. You must be doing something wrong." you need to rethink your
conclusions and double-check your assumptions. It is more than likely
the experienced folks know what they are talking about and you didn't
do something 100% correct in your test.

The same is true for BMS. When one new guy says "Don't use a BMS!"
and all the experienced EVers say, "Use a BMS." you need to check
your assumptions and re-do your test because you are probably wrong.

When someone else repeats the test and _proves_ that the accepted
theory (or practice) is wrong, then you have something worth debating.

Bill Dube'

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
As was stated earlier, Jack jumps to conclusions rather quickly and
not completely following a sound scientific method in doing so. He
tends to attack when someone disagrees with him on his conclusions but
he does sometimes come around and when he sees he made a mistake he
admits it. The regen "issue" is one such time. He has, however,
uncovered a possible error in how some claim the range extending
gained by regen. If one measures Ah out of the pack and then Ah into
the pack and uses that as their measure of regen efficiency it is
entirely possible to come to the conclusion that regen provides range
improvements in all situations. This is not always the case as Jack's
data have shown. For example, if using regen consumed 100Ah and the
regen put back 10Ah one might conclude from this alone that regen put
back 10% or extended range 10%. The problem is that if using no regen
only consumed 85Ah then the regen drive was worse. Bill D summed it up
quite concisely on how this could be the case. Some of us have been
saying he needed to use Wh not Ah because of the different voltages
involved. In one of my comments I said I was more interested in the
amount of energy consumed from the wall and not Ah in or out of the
pack. He initially attacked back at the idea but then has decided that
maybe he was a little hasty in rejecting the notion. Measuring the KWh
taken from the wall would give another measurement instrument for
energy consumption even though it may not be very precise. Over
multiple drives and charges the "noise" will tend to average out. If
there is a difference between the two "modes" of driving it should
start showing up. Of course, as Bill D pointed out, the system and the
driver have to work _efficiently_ together. I think that the easiest
regen setup to get used to after driving a non-regen vehicle is one
where the regen is operated independently from the throttle and the
brake. Jack's rigs don't have this setup (yet?) so he will have to get
more experience hypermileing with regen like he does with his
non-regen vehicle.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: Occam's Razor (was:Regen Not Efficient....)

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Bill,

Excellent points! I might add that one needs to listen to those who
are disagreeing with your conclusions to understand what they are
saying. Then look at your "experiment" to see what is going on. In
Jack's BMS use statements it was very clear from his data that his
conclusion should have been, If you aren't going to use any type of
cell level monitoring and/or balancing system and only use total pack
voltage to determine when the pack is empty then you should bottom
balance your cells to minimize the likelihood of killing one or more
cells. That is the conclusion I came to using his data.

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
On 24 Jul 2010 at 23:21, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:

> I am fascinated by this and long to see
> published results.

Here are some published results that show what regenerative braking can do
under optimum conditions.  Definitely not a typical case, I grant you, but
still illustrative.

http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=49

I'm not going to say Jack is wrong because I'm not looking over his
shoulder, and perhaps he's measured something of interest.  But I will say
that Bill is right.  Regen works when configured and operated correctly.  

It may be that what Jack is showing us is now NOT to configure regen.  If
so, that's valuable information, but my concern is that some folks may come
away with the wrong lesson.  Read carefully, and test for yourself!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

SLPinfo.org
To be clear - Jack is no longer say "regen doesn't work" - he has backed off
on and that and now says it may well do so. And he has openly admitted his
error. He is however (as some have pointed out to him) suggesting that
it might be better to measure the efficiency gains of regen using Wh in and
out of the wall.  The regen set ups he is using and the driving conditions
he is testing them under may or may not be the best ones for the test but
his latest preliminary results NOW do show that regen results in gains in
efficiency.

Peter Flipsen

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 12:45 AM, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2010 at 23:21, Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
>
> > I am fascinated by this and long to see
> > published results.
>
> Here are some published results that show what regenerative braking can do
> under optimum conditions.  Definitely not a typical case, I grant you, but
> still illustrative.
>
> http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=49
>
> I'm not going to say Jack is wrong because I'm not looking over his
> shoulder, and perhaps he's measured something of interest.  But I will say
> that Bill is right.  Regen works when configured and operated correctly.
>
> It may be that what Jack is showing us is now NOT to configure regen.  If
> so, that's valuable information, but my concern is that some folks may come
> away with the wrong lesson.  Read carefully, and test for yourself!
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Seth Rothenberg
I think any discussion on regen needs to
count the reduced brake wear.

My current car is a Prius
(paritally electric car, but does not plug in...yet! ),
and I have got pretty good control of the regen -
turning it on and off with the accellerator.

In a car with regen, brakes are for panic stops.
I just don't need new brakes as often as I did
in my ICE car.   Note, brakes are both a financial
issue and a green issue, as there is material being eroded.

My first EV (hopefully to go on the road "soon")
won't have regen, but my next likely will.
(When I turn over a new Leaf?)

STOP means make electricity.

Seth

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

tomw
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
"Generally, when your data contradict that much established research, you
stop and look again before you publish, no?"

Exactly. I've also done a similar comparison test.  I drove about a 5 or 6 mile closed loop with 6 stops signs, no stop lights, and some small hills.  Battery pack fully charged initially both times. Once with regen on, once with regen turned off (0%).  AC50 motor/Curtis 1238-7501 controller, neutral_braking parameter setting % regen. I "hypermiled" with regen off, coasting as much as possible while remaining fairly close to the speed limit.  Result was about 12% less charged used with regen on. I used a TBS gauge to track Ah used.  The difference in Wh used should be similar, as the pack was fully charged for each run, so voltage was similar.

Using the neutral_braking parameter to control regen, the control is all in the accelerator pedal.  I can control this well, usually holding the current within +/- a few amps of what I want, so I can hold it at zero to coast.  

The only way you could possible get less efficiency with regen would be to modulate the vehicle's kinetic energy more than you do without regen.  This could happen if you have poor control of the throttle/controller, so that you are regularly over-regen'ing, slowing too much, then accelerating to compensate.  Think about it, if you drive a vehicle using regen to stop, and you drive with the same exact acceleration/deceleration as without regen, using friction to stop, there is no way it can be less efficient with regen.  Even if the regen has very poor efficiency, it will put some energy back into the pack, whereas with friction it all goes to heat.  The changes in vehicle kinetic energy will be the same for both cases - but in the regen case some gets converted to potential energy in the batteries.

In normal driving you typically have to keep pace with traffic, so you can only "hypermile" so much without impeding traffic flow or riding the bumper of the car in front of you.  You have to regulate speed, regularly slowing and stopping.  You either do that with friction, or regen. If with regen you will get some kinetic energy converted to potential energy, with friction you can only generate heat.
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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Elithion
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
* "Regen is counterproductive"
* "BMSs kill packs"
* "Street light go off when you walk under them"
* "Condoms cause pregnancies"

Yes: you can find data that corroborates all the above.

For example: "I never used a condom before, and never made any woman pregnant. The one time I used a condom, she got pregnant. I therefore can prove that condoms cause pregnancy. I have the data to prove it." OK. But do you have *all* the data? What if some of your lovers did get pregnant, but never told you? What if, because you never used a condom before, you didn't know how to use one properly?

Now substitute "BMS" for "condom" and "killed pack" for "pregnant". Or, substitute "regen" for "condom" and "efficiency" for "pregnant". You get the idea.

Sure, data are great, I love data! But just because you have data doesn't mean you have all the data, nor that you know how to interpret them. The worse is when someone approaches you and offers to help you make sense of your data, and you send them away because you say: "I have data, and you don't, so go away and don't come back until *you* have data.". (Yes, that is what I was told when I went to the holder of the data that "proved that BMSs harm packs" and offered to explain what those data were really showing. )

It would be easy to dismiss such people; so what if one day they'll learn the hard way: it's just one EV that may be damaged.

What really worries me is the crowds who listen to the most controversial voice, just because of the fact that it is controversial, the crowds who distrust the system ("The government is behind 9/11"; "The oil companies are suppressing free energy information"), and will latch onto a voice of dissent for no other reason that that voice is "being silenced". I am not worried about a "regen is counterproductive" statement: an EV without regen is not dangerous. What I am worried about is people who will refuse to use a BMS with a Li-Ion pack (or to wear condoms) based on such voices of dissent; I am worried because of the dangers of an unprotected Li-Ion pack (or the consequences of unprotected sex).

(Don't  get me wrong: I am all for dissent. Dissent is good. Following dissent just because it's dissent, without questioning, is what concerns me. I really don't want to be in a pissing contest.)

Initially I dismissed the "bottom balancing without a BMS" issue as a non starter. Sure, a bottom balanced pack without a BMS can be protected from over-discharge by looking just at the pack voltage, that's undeniable. But to ignore what happens at the top end (charging with a CCCV charger and no BMS), which can result in a fire hazard from severely overcharged cells, is, in my mind, unconscionable.
I wasn't too worried, as it affected only one person: its proponent. But then I started hearing from others who seriously considered bottom balancing without a BMS as a viable option. This is when I have to speak up, and say:

    A CCCV charger without a BMS >>>> WILL OVERCHARGE CELLS <<<<
    and an overcharged cell can be a fire hazard.

And, no, I am not trying to sell you a BMS for your Li-Ion pack. Go buy someone else's BMS, I don't care; just as long as you have one, one that actually works.

/ rant

P.S. The technical details about my statements above are too involved to include here. Let me refer you instead to the following:
1) This white paper explains why CCCV charging a Li-Ion pack gives a false sense of security:
http://liionbms.com/php/wp_cccv_charging.php
2) The book "Battery Management Systems for Large Lithium Ion Battery Packs" lists 7 reasons why top balancing makes sense, and finds not a single one to do bottom balancing (section 3.2.3.1). Here is a screen capture of the relevant section: http://lithiumate.elithion.com/smf/pictures/bottombalancing.gif








Davide Andrea
Elithion
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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Evan Tuer
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Elithion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What really worries me is the crowds who listen to the most controversial
> voice, just because of the fact that it is controversial

This seems to be a recurring theme with this particular voice.  Like
"shock jock" talk radio personalities, making outrageous statements
gets everyone talking about and listening to the originator.

Like talk radio, it's probably best to tune out.

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Douglas A. Stansfield-2
In reply to this post by Seth Rothenberg
Just did a Plug In Enginer Prius kit conversion last week for a client and
boosted mpg considerably.

Turns out that the Enginer Kit can actually end up charging the stock Prius
battery from the wall outlet not just the Enginer battery pack.  Usually
takes between 3 and 7 minutes to fully charge the 1kw stock Prius pack.  

This allows him to leave every morning with both a full Prius battery (two
green bars) and the Enginer supplemental battery.

Glad your regen is working well Seth.

Sorry I had the meeting on Saturday and missed you this month.  Maybe next
month I will hold the NJ EAA meeting someplace by you on a Sunday.  Actually
aren't there blue laws still in effect on Sunday so that all the big mall
parking lots are empty?  Maybe we can hold one at Garden State Plaza on a
Sunday afternoon in August?  Do you think that will work?


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....

I think any discussion on regen needs to
count the reduced brake wear.

My current car is a Prius
(paritally electric car, but does not plug in...yet! ),
and I have got pretty good control of the regen -
turning it on and off with the accellerator.

In a car with regen, brakes are for panic stops.
I just don't need new brakes as often as I did
in my ICE car.   Note, brakes are both a financial
issue and a green issue, as there is material being eroded.

My first EV (hopefully to go on the road "soon")
won't have regen, but my next likely will.
(When I turn over a new Leaf?)

STOP means make electricity.

Seth

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Re: Regen Not Efficient....

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Douglas A. Stansfield-2
The scientific thing to do when you want to present a (new)
theory is to first establish the rules by which your proof
must be executed.
Luckily one does not even need to actually build or run an
EV with or without regen if the rules show clearly enough
how you measure, how it is an apples-to-apples comparison
and one just has to apply logic and laws of physics to be
able to see that under practical and comparable situations
the regen will always result in lower energy use.
To clarify:
- rule is that the EV must be driven in the same way with
and without regen, so same speed, same acceleration and
same deceleration. The fact that deceleration (regen) will
recoup some energy must not be the reason to drive faster
or brake harder, because then it is not apples-to-apples.

Since the same energy is needed for the acceleration and
coasting of the EV, the only difference will be during
the periods of deceleration. In the non-regen EV all
energy will be turned into heat and brake pad wear.
In the EV with regen a part of the kinetic energy of the
vehicle is turned into electric energy and stored into
the batteries.
You can debate about how much of the original energy that
was needed to accelerate the vehicle will make it back
into the battery and can be pulled out again for the next
acceleration - I have seen numbers for lead-acid batteries
and AC drivetrains that estimate about 50% of the original
energy is available for the next cycle, so that means that
coasting is much preferable to accelerate-regen cycles, so
it is mandatory to either be able to disengage regen or to
get a "feel" for the accelerator to allow your EV to coast
without drawing power from battery or wheels, because
either will prevent you from maximizing your efficiency.

But by simply applying logic and laws of physics, you can
make a water-tight case of regen reducing the energy that
your EV consumes, in all practical cases.
There is a theoretical case where you never brake until
you reach the end of your journey where you glide to a
halt on an incline. In such a scenario it does not matter
whether you have regen or not, the consumption is the same
in both cases.

Please also note that many batteries do not accept large
charge currents until they are below approx 85% SOC.
So the first few miles of your journey you should not
expect any benefit from regen if you charge your pack to
100% SOC every night. I know from my own experience how
the first few traffic lights were always a frustration
when you missed the green, because of wasting all that
energy in the brake pads... The Prius was much smarter
by keeping the max SOC below the acceptance level and
always allowing the electric deceleration... I think that
the Li-Ion batteries will also allow charging to less than
100% if you are either on top of a hill and can recoup a
lot of that energy during the start of your trip and
still offer enough energy to complete the trip up at the
end, so you know that at least half the energy of the trip
up the hill comes from the trip down and not from the wall.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Not Efficient....


"Generally, when your data contradict that much established research,
you stop and look again before you publish, no?"

Exactly. I've also done a similar comparison test.  I drove about a 5 or
6 mile closed loop with 6 stops signs, no stop lights, and some small
hills.
Battery pack fully charged initially both times. Once with regen on,
once with regen turned off (0%).  AC50 motor/Curtis 1238-7501
controller, neutral_braking parameter setting % regen. I "hypermiled"
with regen off, coasting as much as possible while remaining fairly
close to the speed limit.  Result was about 12% less charged used with
regen on. I used a TBS gauge to track Ah used.  The difference in Wh
used should be similar, as the pack was fully charged for each run, so
voltage was similar.

Using the neutral_braking parameter to control regen, the control is all
in the accelerator pedal.  I can control this well, usually holding the
current within +/- a few amps of what I want, so I can hold it at zero
to coast.  

The only way you could possible get less efficiency with regen would be
to modulate the vehicle's kinetic energy more than you do without regen.
This could happen if you have poor control of the throttle/controller,
so that you are regularly over-regen'ing, slowing too much, then
accelerating to compensate.  Think about it, if you drive a vehicle
using regen to stop, and you drive with the same exact
acceleration/deceleration as without regen, using friction to stop,
there is no way it can be less efficient with regen.
Even if the regen has very poor efficiency, it will put some energy back
into the pack, whereas with friction it all goes to heat.  The changes
in vehicle kinetic energy will be the same for both cases - but in the
regen case some gets converted to potential energy in the batteries.

In normal driving you typically have to keep pace with traffic, so you
can only "hypermile" so much without impeding traffic flow or riding the
bumper of the car in front of you.  You have to regulate speed,
regularly slowing and stopping.  You either do that with friction, or
regen. If with regen you will get some kinetic energy converted to
potential energy, with friction you can only generate heat.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Regen-Not-E
fficient-tp2301226p2301605.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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123