Smearing with coal (again)

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Smearing with coal (again)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> Worse... energy created here to charge EVs still comes mostly from
> polluting sources:
> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3

Not true.  Even that article points out that it was 70% coal but is now down
to 40% (60% renewables).  SO that is not "mostly" anymore.  And the grid is
getting cleaner every day...

AND the most important argument is that an EV uses about 1/3rd of the energy
as a gasoline car for the same distance.  AND more than half of all EV
buyers also buy CLEAN ELECTRICITY, either from their own solar, or by
subscribing to clean energy or Wind from their utility.  So multiply 50%
coal times 33% energy use times 50% of EV's use only clean energy and you
end up with the AVERAGE amount of coal emissions to charge the AVERAGE EV is
only 8% compared to a gas car. !

Don’t buy-in to that dirty coal EV argument.  It is nearly 92% WRONG.  And
it is getting cleaner everyday!

Bob, WB4APR

> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
> that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
> down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
> incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
> where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
> attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
> this modernization.

Would love to hear your feedback!

Cheers
Dan
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:15:28 -0500

   AND more than half of all EV buyers also buy CLEAN ELECTRICITY,
   either from their own solar...

The fungibility of electric power makes it difficult to make a clear
statement about this.  It's true that if I charge on a sunny day the
electricity flows straight from my solar panels to my car.  If I had a
gas car, the power generated from the panels would go instead to
displace someone else's electricity usage, generated mostly by fossil
fuel plants.  Thus having solar panels does not exempt me from the fact
that using electricity in my car leads to more fossil fuel consumption
than if I didn't use it, everything else being equal.

                                        Ken

P.S. If anybody is an expert on voluntary renewable energy set-asides in
carbon emission cap-and-trade systems, I'd appreciate a conversation,
but email me separately as it is not really relevant to this list.
Thanks.
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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The wording with the double negatives in the original email below was
confusing.

So just to be clear,  if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar
(typical 8 kW home system here in Maryland)...

And use 10MWhars per year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is
completely fossil fuel free.

It does not matter whether it was for your house and car, or just your
house or for your neighbors during the day.

All of your energy was fossil fuel free at the end of the year.

Sure the actual electrons were coming from the grid mix at night, but your
solar system DISPLACED the same amount of fossil fuel consumption of your
neighbor during the day for a net burn of ZERO fossil fuels from your
account.

Bob, WB4A{R

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 3:48 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Ken Olum <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:15:28 -0500

   AND more than half of all EV buyers also buy CLEAN ELECTRICITY,
   either from their own solar...

The fungibility of electric power makes it difficult to make a clear
statement about this.  It's true that if I charge on a sunny day the
electricity flows straight from my solar panels to my car.  If I had a gas
car, the power generated from the panels would go instead to displace
someone else's electricity usage, generated mostly by fossil fuel plants.
Thus having solar panels does not exempt me from the fact that using
electricity in my car leads to more fossil fuel consumption than if I
didn't use it, everything else being equal.

                                        Ken

P.S. If anybody is an expert on voluntary renewable energy set-asides in
carbon emission cap-and-trade systems, I'd appreciate a conversation, but
email me separately as it is not really relevant to this list.
Thanks.
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500
 
   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your
gas car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
yourself have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
your cars.

                                        Ken
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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Ken
That is exactly why many residences decide to get solar, to counter the
(steep) increase in electric usage
and while they are at it, they often cover the house load as well, so
using your (slightly flawed) argument,
I could say that EVs can cause *less* pollution when many new EV'ers
decide to get solar.

It is easy go get into very hairy consequences if the premise includes
unrelated things...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:37 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Ken Olum
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500
 
   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your gas
car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
yourself have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
your cars.

                                        Ken
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
charged from clean energy.  A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
their grid, or would when it was offered.

To clarify, I'm not talking about what my car does.  I am talking about
the AVERAGE EV then has more than HALF of them running on 100% clean
energy.  And of the half that run on the average grid mix (50% fossil
fuel) they are only using 1/3rd the actual energy as a gas car, then 50% *
50% * 33%  equals about 8% which one can firmly say is the percent of
fossil fuel ON AVERAGE being used by all EV's.

Not the "mostly run on coal" argument  you hear so often.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

Ken
That is exactly why many residences decide to get solar, to counter the
(steep) increase in electric usage
and while they are at it, they often cover the house load as well, so
using your (slightly flawed) argument, I could say that EVs can cause
*less* pollution when many new EV'ers decide to get solar.

It is easy go get into very hairy consequences if the premise includes
unrelated things...
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:37 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Ken Olum
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500

   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants don't
need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly compensates
for the additional pollution that you generate with your gas car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car vs.
gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with the
pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you yourself
have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car against
zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is the
right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including your
cars.

                                        Ken
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You are also leaving out the energy necessary to refine the gasoline. An electric car can go 20 miles on the energy it take to make gasoline

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Ken Olum via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
>   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500
>
>   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
>   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
>   fuel free.
>
> I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
> this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
> car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
> you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
> don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
> compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your
> gas car.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
> vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
> the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
> yourself have solar panels.
>
> The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
> against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
> (electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
> the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
> your cars.
>
>                                        Ken
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

Bob said )in part):
> The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
their grid, or would when it was offered.
 
That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.  "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes nothing.
 
 
 
 
73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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There is a purpose to buying green power - to support a nascent industry in
the face of established production methods and producers (who don't want to
change).

If you have some money to spare, and you want the earth to be a cleaner
place, it may make sense to pay more for greener production of energy.

I pay taxes so people can go to the library, and to fuel up fire trucks.
The only difference I see is that contributing to green power is optional,
unless you think vastly better stewardship of the earth is necessary.

I have some money to spare for that.  And it actually has been a boon to
solar and wind.

I think it is stupid not to, if you want to go there.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:07 PM, jim--- via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Bob said )in part):
> > The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
> charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
> EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
> their grid, or would when it was offered.
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
> "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any
> different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not
> change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and
> it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes
> nothing.
>
>
>
>
> 73
> -----
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> [hidden email]
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>


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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Jim,

Can you explain what you mean by "pay extra for something that would
have been there..."?

From the way I see it, a REC allows you to pay a "green" producer a
slight premium for power. That is, if you didn't use REC to buy it, it
probably would have sold at a lower rate. With RECs, you are increasing,
albeit slightly, the demand for this green power. That provides an
incremental incentive to build-out more solar or wind farms.

Or, conversely, it reduces the demand for power from, say, a coal plant.
If enough power ultimately is purchased from solar or wind farms, that
would mean the price to buy kwh from a coal plant drops and at some
point the coal plant becomes unprofitable to operate.

Evidentially you see this differently?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "jim--- via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 04-Jan-18 1:07:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

>
>Bob said )in part):
>>The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV
>>owners
>charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
>EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables
>from
>their grid, or would when it was offered.
>
>That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
>"green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra
>for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or
>not.  "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting
>any different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does
>not change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel
>better, and it potentially helps to send a political message, but it
>accomplishes nothing.
>
>
>
>
>73
>-----
>Jim Walls - K6CCC
>[hidden email]
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>

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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Jim,
Looking at microeconomics it does not make sense indeed.
However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
to the market that green power has higher value.
They are voting with their money.

The market, in return, installs more green power where it might
not have been feasible against the "dirty" power rate, so the long term
effect is that buying green power *does* change the picture.

Luckily, renewable power costs are ever falling and dirty power is ever getting
more expensive (with slight offsets, when regulations are cut and dirty plants
can run longer at lower cost to produce more pollution a bit longer)
but eventually all dirty power will price themselves out of a fair market
simply because it cannot compete with ever cheaper renewable energy
that does not have the running cost of constant supply of fuel, since it is
provided for free.
That is why the first switch to renewables was always at places where it was
difficult or expensive to supply fuel (islands, mountain tops) and over the
years you see the economy trickle down into mainstream power provider
territory simply because of business sense.

EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might just
as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install solar
might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
to install more renewables.
It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)


Bob said )in part):
> The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV
> owners
charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from their grid, or would when it was offered.
 
That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.  "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes nothing.
 
 
 
 
73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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The cost of fossil fuels has always had a hidden cost side that we have
been "stupid" to pay for, and continue to do so when buying the "cheaper"
fossil sourced fuels. Our health and the health of the planetary
environment are a terrible price.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Jim,
> Looking at microeconomics it does not make sense indeed.
> However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
> to the market that green power has higher value.
> They are voting with their money.
>
> The market, in return, installs more green power where it might
> not have been feasible against the "dirty" power rate, so the long term
> effect is that buying green power *does* change the picture.
>
> Luckily, renewable power costs are ever falling and dirty power is ever
> getting
> more expensive (with slight offsets, when regulations are cut and dirty
> plants
> can run longer at lower cost to produce more pollution a bit longer)
> but eventually all dirty power will price themselves out of a fair market
> simply because it cannot compete with ever cheaper renewable energy
> that does not have the running cost of constant supply of fuel, since it is
> provided for free.
> That is why the first switch to renewables was always at places where it
> was
> difficult or expensive to supply fuel (islands, mountain tops) and over the
> years you see the economy trickle down into mainstream power provider
> territory simply because of business sense.
>
> EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
> so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might
> just
> as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
> Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install
> solar
> might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
> to install more renewables.
> It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:08 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)
>
>
> Bob said )in part):
> > The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV
> > owners
> charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all EV
> owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
> their grid, or would when it was offered.
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
> "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any
> different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not
> change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and
> it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes
> nothing.
>
>
>
>
> 73
> -----
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> [hidden email]
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>
>


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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
> to the market that green power has higher value.
> They are voting with their money.

That's exactly right.

There are two kinds of green power available these days:
1) offset-driven, e.g. arcadia power
2) utility-provided, e.g. ladwp

In either case, you're voting with your money.  Utility-provided
green power is more likely to actually reduce emissions IMHO,
but if enough people pick either, utilities and politicians will notice
the political support for clean power those customers represent.

> EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
> so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might just
> as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
> Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install solar
> might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
> to install more renewables.
> It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.

Solar alone doesn't fully mitigate the emissions of EVs unless you
charge the EV when the sun is shining.  If everybody gets an EV,
and everybody charges it at night, that's a lot of nighttime emissions.
If you charge at night, and want to avoid (non-net-)emissions, consider signing
up for green power or installing storage.

Me, I went with rooftop solar, LADWP green power, and nighttime charging.
- Dan
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.

Are you so certain that is the case?

In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC Hydro power.

At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility Commission tells us. Are they lying?

BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying they do not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage higher than it would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage drop if the wind power suddenly “went away?"

Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix at all?”

de N7JDB

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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> Solar alone doesn't fully mitigate the emissions of EVs
> unless you charge the EV when the sun is shining.

A common misunderstanding of net metering.  It doesn't matter when the
solar owner charges, as long as he has produced enough solar banked into
the grid to meet that load later on.  The solar panels over produce say 16
kWh during the day which probably goes as far as a few neighbor houses and
replacing their dirty grid power.  So the solar owner has reduced 16kWh of
carbon.

When she charges at night, she draws 16 kWh of carbon electricity from the
grid for a NET of zero carbon for her car.  Thus, she has fully charged on
100% clean sun power, since her arrays produced 16kWh of clean power and
she used 16kWh for her EV.

>  If everybody gets an EV, and everybody charges it at night,
> that's a lot of nighttime emissions.

Not if those same people put up say 12 solar panels and produced into the
grid during the day what they need at night.

> If you charge at night, and [cant put up solar panels],
> consider signing up for green power...

Amen to that.

Just 12 solar panels can provide free 40 miles daily EV travel forever on
sunshine and that is the national average mileage.  Talk about energy
independence.!

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  If everybody gets an EV, and everybody charges it at night,
>> that's a lot of nighttime emissions.
>
> Not if those same people put up say 12 solar panels and produced into the
> grid during the day what they need at night.

What if *all* daytime power was supplied by solar?  How would those
12 panels you mention reduce daytime emissions?

I'm talking about the endgame, not about conditions in 2017.
- Dan
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes into the system regardless.  It is not a controllable source (other than opening breakers - which does not happen).  And at the wholesale level, the utilities pay a very high price for that power.  Here is a very simplified hypothetical example.  If 90% of the non-renewable power costs $50 per MegaWattHour, 9% costs $60 per MWH and 1% costs $400 per MWH, the renewable gets paid at the $400 rate, and the electric utilities have no choice in the price of if they buy it - they are required to.  It matter absolutely none whether anyone pays a "green power" rate.  As several people pointed out, if more people pay for the "green" energy, it can have the political affect that I alluded to, but that his not likely to have any effect on someone deciding to build more green power.
 
BTW, a note that this data is a few years old, but I am not aware that it has changed.
 
Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: "Jan Steinman via EV" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 13:59
To: [hidden email]
Cc: "Jan Steinman" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)



> From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" power. All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.

Are you so certain that is the case?

In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC Hydro power.

At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility Commission tells us. Are they lying?

BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying they do not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage higher than it would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage drop if the wind power suddenly “went away?"

Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix at all?”

de N7JDB

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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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What has changed in the years since that data was valid is that Wind is now
cheaper than even wholesale coal or natual gas.
Stop hanging onto the past... solar and wind are here for those open to
change.  And it is cheaper.  Solar coming in at under 2 cents per kWh in
the last large solar array in South America.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 7:00 PM, jim--- via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes
> into the system regardless.  It is not a controllable source (other than
> opening breakers - which does not happen).  And at the wholesale level, the
> utilities pay a very high price for that power.  Here is a very simplified
> hypothetical example.  If 90% of the non-renewable power costs $50 per
> MegaWattHour, 9% costs $60 per MWH and 1% costs $400 per MWH, the renewable
> gets paid at the $400 rate, and the electric utilities have no choice in
> the price of if they buy it - they are required to.  It matter absolutely
> none whether anyone pays a "green power" rate.  As several people pointed
> out, if more people pay for the "green" energy, it can have the political
> affect that I alluded to, but that his not likely to have any effect on
> someone deciding to build more green power.
>
> BTW, a note that this data is a few years old, but I am not aware that it
> has changed.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jan Steinman via EV" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 13:59
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: "Jan Steinman" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)
>
>
>
> > From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> >
> > That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power. All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
>
> Are you so certain that is the case?
>
> In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless
> directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase
> Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC
> Hydro power.
>
> At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility
> Commission tells us. Are they lying?
>
> BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying
> they do not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage
> higher than it would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage
> drop if the wind power suddenly “went away?"
>
> Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix
> at all?”
>
> de N7JDB
>
> _______________________________________________
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> group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: Smearing with coal (again)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>
>> Can you provide some evidence that "it does not change the generation mix at all?"
>
> Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes into the system regardless... this data [NO SOURCE CITED] is a few years old, but I am not aware that it has changed.

Well, can’t argue with EVIDENCE like that, can you?

You need to learn the difference between facts and beliefs, and why it is not a good idea to present one as the other.

:::: If energy availability diminishes, systems must shrink, or slow down, or do both. -- David Holmgren <http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=David+Holmgren>
:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op <http://www.ecoreality.org/> ::::

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