Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
21 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There are 400w panels out that are roughly 7'x3.5'  So a rather
reasonable 7'x7' trailer could produce 800w, which is a good amount of
power - but not nearly enough.

Assuming they're mounted flat, that's 800w at high noon, and less at
every other part of the day.  We could expect something like 3.2kwh /
day of production, or roughly a 1 mile extension in range.

To get the 12kw needed, we need at least 15 times that, or 105' long
trailer, 7' wide.  Then we could drive continuously at around the noon
hour for around an hour, on a good sunny day.


Sadly, as you said, it's a math problem..

On 7/10/20 12:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 That math seems wrong to me. 3200 Wh at 25Wh/m = 12.8 miles not 1 mile.

    On Friday, July 10, 2020, 8:22:02 AM CDT, Tom Mandera via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 There are 400w panels out that are roughly 7'x3.5'  So a rather
reasonable 7'x7' trailer could produce 800w, which is a good amount of
power - but not nearly enough.

Assuming they're mounted flat, that's 800w at high noon, and less at
every other part of the day.  We could expect something like 3.2kwh /
day of production, or roughly a 1 mile extension in range.

To get the 12kw needed, we need at least 15 times that, or 105' long
trailer, 7' wide.  Then we could drive continuously at around the noon
hour for around an hour, on a good sunny day.


Sadly, as you said, it's a math problem..

On 7/10/20 12:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/18cbae85/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 I commonly get much better range. My indicator of accumulated data says 4.9 miles per kwh. Your mileage may vary. Lawrence Rhodes

    On Friday, July 10, 2020, 9:50:10 AM PDT, Tom Mandera <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 
Assuming the 24kwh battery Leaf goes 80 miles, that's 3.3 miles / kwh or 0.3kwh/mile or 300wh / mile.
 

 
 
80miles / 24kwh = 3.3 miles /kw or 1/3.3 kwh per mile.
 
 
Assuming a linear consumption (which is wrong - ignoring increased drag at speed, but convenient) that means at 55mph, traveling 1 hour, we need 16.5kwh of juice.
 

 
 
or 16,500w of solar to equal the consumption.
 

 
 
So the 12kw figure was on the low side, even assuming a linear consumption.
 

 
 
Unless I fouled up the math again. :)
 
 

 
 
 On 7/10/20 8:07 AM, paul dove wrote:
 
  That math seems wrong to me. 3200 Wh at 25Wh/m = 12.8 miles not 1 mile.
 
      On Friday, July 10, 2020, 8:22:02 AM CDT, Tom Mandera via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
   There are 400w panels out that are roughly 7'x3.5'  So a rather
 reasonable 7'x7' trailer could produce 800w, which is a good amount of
 power - but not nearly enough.
 
 Assuming they're mounted flat, that's 800w at high noon, and less at
 every other part of the day.  We could expect something like 3.2kwh /
 day of production, or roughly a 1 mile extension in range.
 
 To get the 12kw needed, we need at least 15 times that, or 105' long
 trailer, 7' wide.  Then we could drive continuously at around the noon
 hour for around an hour, on a good sunny day.
 
 
 Sadly, as you said, it's a math problem..
 
 On 7/10/20 12:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 > The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
 > -------------- next part --------------
 > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 > URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
 > _______________________________________________
 > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
 > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
 > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
 > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 >
 _______________________________________________
 UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
 ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
 INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
 Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 
     
   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/57b161e3/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It's a math problem that can't be solved. At least not with today's
technology.

On 7/10/2020 2:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

It's a math problem that can't be solved. At least not with today's
technology.
I think it is a weight problem that can be solved with today's technology...at least by students in Holland. Of course you can't do it with the piggy Tesla's and Bolts. Something much lighter. Lawrence Rhodes https://solarteameindhoven.nl/



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200711/74d0a7af/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
My 3 solar panels (240W) on my Franken-Volt add about 30 miles a week.
See http://aprs.org/my-EVs.html
Bob

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> It's a math problem that can't be solved. At least not with today's
> technology.
> I think it is a weight problem that can be solved with today's
> technology...at least by students in Holland. Of course you can't do it
> with the piggy Tesla's and Bolts. Something much lighter. Lawrence Rhodes
> https://solarteameindhoven.nl/
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200711/74d0a7af/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200711/a56a68b2/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> It's a math problem that can't be solved. At least not with today's
> technology. I think it is a weight problem that can be solved with today's
> technology...at least by students in Holland. Of course you can't do it with the piggy Tesla's and Bolts. Something much lighter. Lawrence Rhodes https://solarteameindhoven.nl/

I'd characterize it as a problem that can't be solved with traditional
old solutions (heavy steel cars, etc.) But it can be solved with new
technology, as has been demonstrated many times by solar cars. It just
requires people to think outside the box.

Heck, batteries are good enough that you could even do it without the
solar panels. Or even less...

"I've invented an amazing machine that can transport people over a
hundred miles a day. It's clean, quiet, non-polluting, inexpensive, and
uses no fossil fuels, motors, or batteries. I call it a 'bicycle'".

Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Cute! The problem is to design one that meats current crash safety requirements and still be light and efficient.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 11, 2020, at 10:58 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> It's a math problem that can't be solved. At least not with today's
>> technology. I think it is a weight problem that can be solved with today's
>> technology...at least by students in Holland. Of course you can't do it with the piggy Tesla's and Bolts. Something much lighter. Lawrence Rhodes https://solarteameindhoven.nl/
>
> I'd characterize it as a problem that can't be solved with traditional old solutions (heavy steel cars, etc.) But it can be solved with new technology, as has been demonstrated many times by solar cars. It just requires people to think outside the box.
>
> Heck, batteries are good enough that you could even do it without the solar panels. Or even less...
>
> "I've invented an amazing machine that can transport people over a hundred miles a day. It's clean, quiet, non-polluting, inexpensive, and uses no fossil fuels, motors, or batteries. I call it a 'bicycle'".
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
> - something to do
> - something to look forward to
> - someone to love
> - someone to take good care of
> - and misbehave, just a little
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>   I commonly get much better range. My indicator of accumulated data says 4.9 miles per kwh. Your mileage may vary. Lawrence Rhodes--

That's exactly the same as our 2013, Lawrence. We must be doing
something right.

Lee Hart
--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
From: paul dove <[hidden email]>

Cute! The problem is to design one that meats current crash safety requirements and still be light and efficient.

The Stella racers are built like Formula 1 and use 5 point belts. Certainly legal in Holland and probably here. They would fall under at least special construction.  I could be wrong but if a car has 5 point racing belts air bags are not required. Lawrence Rhodes



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200711/95555ce1/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
When I put a small flat 4'x6' utility trailer on my Prius, the mileage went
from 55 down to 40!  And that was with no load or added wind drag other
than the trailer.

So it is quite silly to think one can add a trailer to get SOlar without
losing more in the trade!

Bob

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:17 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  That math seems wrong to me. 3200 Wh at 25Wh/m = 12.8 miles not 1 mile.
>
>     On Friday, July 10, 2020, 8:22:02 AM CDT, Tom Mandera via EV <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  There are 400w panels out that are roughly 7'x3.5'  So a rather
> reasonable 7'x7' trailer could produce 800w, which is a good amount of
> power - but not nearly enough.
>
> Assuming they're mounted flat, that's 800w at high noon, and less at
> every other part of the day.  We could expect something like 3.2kwh /
> day of production, or roughly a 1 mile extension in range.
>
> To get the 12kw needed, we need at least 15 times that, or 105' long
> trailer, 7' wide.  Then we could drive continuously at around the noon
> hour for around an hour, on a good sunny day.
>
>
> Sadly, as you said, it's a math problem..
>
> On 7/10/20 12:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> > The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5
> passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16
> rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain
> 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph
> achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw
> continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is
> a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect
> some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber
> Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size
> would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough
> to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced
> and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/18cbae85/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200711/ee15f6b5/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 It has to be big enough and light enough and aerodynamically sound. The formula is 850 pounds and 1.5kw battery and a 1.5kw solar panel. CD of .16.  Lawrence Rhodes

    On Saturday, July 11, 2020, 7:18:26 PM PDT, Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 When I put a small flat 4'x6' utility trailer on my Prius, the mileage went from 55 down to 40!  And that was with no load or added wind drag other than the trailer.
So it is quite silly to think one can add a trailer to get SOlar without losing more in the trade!
Bob
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:17 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

 That math seems wrong to me. 3200 Wh at 25Wh/m = 12.8 miles not 1 mile.

    On Friday, July 10, 2020, 8:22:02 AM CDT, Tom Mandera via EV <[hidden email]> wrote: 

 There are 400w panels out that are roughly 7'x3.5'  So a rather
reasonable 7'x7' trailer could produce 800w, which is a good amount of
power - but not nearly enough.

Assuming they're mounted flat, that's 800w at high noon, and less at
every other part of the day.  We could expect something like 3.2kwh /
day of production, or roughly a 1 mile extension in range.

To get the 12kw needed, we need at least 15 times that, or 105' long
trailer, 7' wide.  Then we could drive continuously at around the noon
hour for around an hour, on a good sunny day.


Sadly, as you said, it's a math problem..

On 7/10/20 12:21 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The math problem here is consumption over time. A solar racer with a 5 passenger capacity 850 pound weight with a coefficient of drag of .16  rolling on moped wheels with a 1.5kw panel and 15kw battery can attain 45mph continuously without using battery power. A Nissan Leaf going 55mph achieving 5 miles per kwh would(if I got my math right) need 12kw continuously to keep that speed in full sunlight.  Of course the battery is a buffer that will allow you to do faster speeds and climb hills. I suspect some sort of Pop tent trailer might be a good combination for the Cyber Truck. 450.5 sq. ft. is the maximum size of a trailer. A pop tent that size would be quite a mansion. However that might only produce 5 to 6kw. Enough to charge and extend but not to run continuously.  Weight must be reduced and coefficient of drag lowered. It's a math problem.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/f7c698a9/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200710/18cbae85/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20200712/5f56da2f/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 7/11/20 9:17 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> When I put a small flat 4'x6' utility trailer on my Prius, the mileage went
> from 55 down to 40!  And that was with no load or added wind drag other
> than the trailer.

There is a LOT of variance in trailers.  I have two small flat trailers
with the utility type tires/wheels (12", I think) rather than larger
(13"+) car style wheels.  Pulling empty with either an imiev or a Tesla,
you hardly notice an impact on range, under 5%.  Loaded with ~1000
pounds that sticks up ~2', the impact may be close to 10%.

Still, that ~5% may well be enough to wipe out any benefit from having
PV panels.

I also have a "small" teardrop camping trailer that costs 25-30% when
pulled by a Tesla.

https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/2020/06/pulling-unlicensed-unlighted-trailer-at.html

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> When I put a small flat 4'x6' utility trailer on my Prius, the
> mileage went from 55 down to 40!  And that was with no load or added
> wind drag other than the trailer. So it is quite silly to think one
> can add a trailer to get SOlar without losing more in the trade!

Aerodynamics is funny stuff. It's not at all intuitive, unless you've
studied aeronautical engineering.

A flat trailer might seem like it would have low wind resistance; but a
square front edge and rough surface can create a considerable amount of
drag. Open tires without fenders or wheel wells also have a lot of wind
resistance; especially at the top of the tire, which is moving forward
at *double* the speed of the vehicle. The bottom of a trailer is also
rarely flat or smooth; it will have lots of projections.

Some museums have little wind tunnel setups, where you can insert
verious shapes, and read the drag and lift on meters. Some include
little smoke generators, so you can see where laminar flow breaks into
turbulence, and the big increase in drag it causes.

Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Using a small scale wind tunnel just triggered an idea. How hard would
it be to make a 3D printed model of your car ? (Pretty hard when you
have to consider that it's every tiny bump that makes a difference in
wind, but doable.)

Anyway, having a scale model would allow inexpensive wind tunnel
testing. You could test, for example, the effect of a trailer. Or
raising the suspension of your vehicle a bit. Or adding an air dam in
the front. Or adding roof racks.

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 12-Jul-20 2:26:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

>>When I put a small flat 4'x6' utility trailer on my Prius, the
>>mileage went from 55 down to 40!  And that was with no load or added
>>wind drag other than the trailer. So it is quite silly to think one
>>can add a trailer to get SOlar without losing more in the trade!
>
>Aerodynamics is funny stuff. It's not at all intuitive, unless you've studied aeronautical engineering.
>
>A flat trailer might seem like it would have low wind resistance; but a square front edge and rough surface can create a considerable amount of drag. Open tires without fenders or wheel wells also have a lot of wind resistance; especially at the top of the tire, which is moving forward at *double* the speed of the vehicle. The bottom of a trailer is also rarely flat or smooth; it will have lots of projections.
>
>Some museums have little wind tunnel setups, where you can insert verious shapes, and read the drag and lift on meters. Some include little smoke generators, so you can see where laminar flow breaks into turbulence, and the big increase in drag it causes.
>
>Lee Hart
>
>-- If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>  - something to do
>  - something to look forward to
>  - someone to love
>  - someone to take good care of
>  - and misbehave, just a little
>  --
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
From: Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>Using a small scale wind tunnel just triggered an idea. How hard would
>it be to make a 3D printed model of your car ? (Pretty hard when you
>have to consider that it's every tiny bump that makes a difference in
>wind, but doable.)

How about if he finds a plastic model of his car? They should be pretty darned close to the real thing. Put that in a wind tunnel.

Then as you say, you could experiment with various aero mods and trailers.

Lee Hart

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
As I recall for research I did 20 years ago, as you scale down the model you have to increase the wind speed to get the same drag effects.  Using a model that is smaller than 1/4 scale results in wind speeds that are impractical.
I don't remember the exact details but it has something to do with the "Reynolds number"

As I recall you can partially offset this effect by using a more viscous fluid, so for really small models you might be able to use a 'water tunnel' instead.

Anyway, around that time (20 years ago) it became practical to do the aerodynamic modeling using a computer and get very accurate results, so I lost interest in using wind tunnels.

July 12, 2020 4:11 PM, "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>
>> Using a small scale wind tunnel just triggered an idea. How hard would
>> it be to make a 3D printed model of your car ? (Pretty hard when you
>> have to consider that it's every tiny bump that makes a difference in
>> wind, but doable.)
>
> How about if he finds a plastic model of his car? They should be pretty darned close to the real
> thing. Put that in a wind tunnel.
>
> Then as you say, you could experiment with various aero mods and trailers.
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
July 12, 2020 4:11 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV" <[hidden email]>
 
> Using a small scale wind tunnel just triggered an idea. How hard would
> it be to make a 3D printed model of your car ? (Pretty hard when you
> have to consider that it's every tiny bump that makes a difference in
> wind, but doable.)


Some of the new MSLA printers can do very tiny voxels.  I recently purchased an Elegoo Mars and it's minimum voxel size is 47x47x20 microns, which is too small for these old eyes to make out layer lines even with glasses on.
Parts come out of it and look like they came from a high quality mold (i.e. no mold lines), with intricate details.
I was fairly impressed with what I was getting from FDM printers, but this thing is amazing.

Here is a hires picture of a rook printed with an MSLA printer, realise that the actual piece is 2" tall.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Solar powered vehicle panel requirements.

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Oops, forgot to post a link to the photo

https://sourcegraphics.com/files/2914/8780/2404/grey_rook.jpg

> Here is a hires picture of a rook printed with an MSLA printer, realise that the actual piece is 2"
> tall.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

12