South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

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South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

brucedp4

Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hy88VXCp0vjw_XHlZO_-s7dE2t7Q?docId=CNG.d86ceec20706af0a574a3d87e2ba3a1c.ec1
Argentina considers OPEC-like deal for lithium
By Liliana Samuel  07/01/2011

BUENOS AIRES — Argentina is promoting the idea of an OPEC-like cartel
for itself, Bolivia and Chile, which together control 85 percent of
the world's reserves of lithium, a key component in electric car
batteries.

"In the near future and with our production at such a high level,
Bolivia, Argentina and Chile will control the lithium market," said
Rodolfo Tecchi, the director of the technology and science promotion
division of the Argentine Ministry of Science and Technology.

"They could do it with a sort of OPEC-like arrangement," he added.
The three countries, which Forbes magazine calls the "Saudi Arabia of
lithium," would establish "control mechanisms for the sale of lithium
carbonate, avoiding the lower prices that come with overproduction,"
he added, an idea at the heart of OPEC's operations.

Not everyone in the industry agrees, including the head of the
Argentina chamber of mining industries in the province of Salta,
Facundo Huidobro. "The idea is a bit premature," said Huidobro. "We
have to make sure that investments have been made."

Salta, along with the northern provinces of Jujuy and Catamarca,
contain Argentina's largest lithium deposits.

Argentina has about 10 percent of the world's reserves, after Chile,
with 25 percent in Atacama, in the north of the country, and Bolivia,
which holds about half the world's supply in Uyuni, the world's
largest salt flat.

Sales of lithium by Chile, on the other hand, represent 44 percent
of worldwide revenue, followed by Australia, with 25 percent, China
with 13 percent and Argentina with 11 percent.

A ton of lithium, worth $2,500 in 2004, now sells for around $6,000.
While lithium is also used for cellphone and computer batteries,
experts expect its greatest use will be in electric cars.

Last year Bolivia announced a $900 million (628 million euro)
investment for lithium in three phases: production of lithium
carbonate, then metallic lithium and finally, after 2014, lithium
batteries.

In Argentina, Sales Jujuy, which belongs to the Australian company
Orocobre and is associated with automaker Toyota, just received the
go-ahead to mine lithium and potassium.

Several other companies are exploring Argentina's lithium-mining
areas, including the Canadian Lithium Americas, the Australian Ady
Resources and the French company Bollore et Eramet.
[© 2011 AFP. All rights reserved]
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
...
http://www.americanlithium.com/
...
http://paguntaka.org/2009/10/17/north-arrow-lithium-mining-drilling-in-north-carolina-u-s/
...
http://www.westernlithium.com/





{brucedp.150m.com}
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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

Peter C. Thompson
Of course, this is neglecting the recent find of "rare earths" on the
floor of the Pacific.  And the re-opening of the mines in the US.  :)

Cheers,
     Peter

On 7/4/2011 12:14 AM, brucedp4 wrote:

> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hy88VXCp0vjw_XHlZO_-s7dE2t7Q?docId=CNG.d86ceec20706af0a574a3d87e2ba3a1c.ec1
> Argentina considers OPEC-like deal for lithium
> By Liliana Samuel  07/01/2011
>
> BUENOS AIRES — Argentina is promoting the idea of an OPEC-like cartel
> for itself, Bolivia and Chile, which together control 85 percent of
> the world's reserves of lithium, a key component in electric car
> batteries.
>
> "In the near future and with our production at such a high level,
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile will control the lithium market," said
> Rodolfo Tecchi, the director of the technology and science promotion
> division of the Argentine Ministry of Science and Technology.
>
> "They could do it with a sort of OPEC-like arrangement," he added.
> The three countries, which Forbes magazine calls the "Saudi Arabia of
> lithium," would establish "control mechanisms for the sale of lithium
> carbonate, avoiding the lower prices that come with overproduction,"
> he added, an idea at the heart of OPEC's operations.
>
> Not everyone in the industry agrees, including the head of the
> Argentina chamber of mining industries in the province of Salta,
> Facundo Huidobro. "The idea is a bit premature," said Huidobro. "We
> have to make sure that investments have been made."
>
> Salta, along with the northern provinces of Jujuy and Catamarca,
> contain Argentina's largest lithium deposits.
>
> Argentina has about 10 percent of the world's reserves, after Chile,
> with 25 percent in Atacama, in the north of the country, and Bolivia,
> which holds about half the world's supply in Uyuni, the world's
> largest salt flat.
>
> Sales of lithium by Chile, on the other hand, represent 44 percent
> of worldwide revenue, followed by Australia, with 25 percent, China
> with 13 percent and Argentina with 11 percent.
>
> A ton of lithium, worth $2,500 in 2004, now sells for around $6,000.
> While lithium is also used for cellphone and computer batteries,
> experts expect its greatest use will be in electric cars.
>
> Last year Bolivia announced a $900 million (628 million euro)
> investment for lithium in three phases: production of lithium
> carbonate, then metallic lithium and finally, after 2014, lithium
> batteries.
>
> In Argentina, Sales Jujuy, which belongs to the Australian company
> Orocobre and is associated with automaker Toyota, just received the
> go-ahead to mine lithium and potassium.
>
> Several other companies are exploring Argentina's lithium-mining
> areas, including the Canadian Lithium Americas, the Australian Ady
> Resources and the French company Bollore et Eramet.
> [© 2011 AFP. All rights reserved]
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
> ...
> http://www.americanlithium.com/
> ...
> http://paguntaka.org/2009/10/17/north-arrow-lithium-mining-drilling-in-north-carolina-u-s/
> ...
> http://www.westernlithium.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/South-American-cartel-could-control-85-of-the-world-s-lithium-tp3643078p3643078.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

evan foss
In reply to this post by brucedp4
But people should be recycling lithum so once the market in a given
nation has a fleet of cars on the road they should only need more in
relatively smaller quantities.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:14 AM, brucedp4 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hy88VXCp0vjw_XHlZO_-s7dE2t7Q?docId=CNG.d86ceec20706af0a574a3d87e2ba3a1c.ec1
> Argentina considers OPEC-like deal for lithium
> By Liliana Samuel  07/01/2011
>
> BUENOS AIRES — Argentina is promoting the idea of an OPEC-like cartel
> for itself, Bolivia and Chile, which together control 85 percent of
> the world's reserves of lithium, a key component in electric car
> batteries.
>
> "In the near future and with our production at such a high level,
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile will control the lithium market," said
> Rodolfo Tecchi, the director of the technology and science promotion
> division of the Argentine Ministry of Science and Technology.
>
> "They could do it with a sort of OPEC-like arrangement," he added.
> The three countries, which Forbes magazine calls the "Saudi Arabia of
> lithium," would establish "control mechanisms for the sale of lithium
> carbonate, avoiding the lower prices that come with overproduction,"
> he added, an idea at the heart of OPEC's operations.
>
> Not everyone in the industry agrees, including the head of the
> Argentina chamber of mining industries in the province of Salta,
> Facundo Huidobro. "The idea is a bit premature," said Huidobro. "We
> have to make sure that investments have been made."
>
> Salta, along with the northern provinces of Jujuy and Catamarca,
> contain Argentina's largest lithium deposits.
>
> Argentina has about 10 percent of the world's reserves, after Chile,
> with 25 percent in Atacama, in the north of the country, and Bolivia,
> which holds about half the world's supply in Uyuni, the world's
> largest salt flat.
>
> Sales of lithium by Chile, on the other hand, represent 44 percent
> of worldwide revenue, followed by Australia, with 25 percent, China
> with 13 percent and Argentina with 11 percent.
>
> A ton of lithium, worth $2,500 in 2004, now sells for around $6,000.
> While lithium is also used for cellphone and computer batteries,
> experts expect its greatest use will be in electric cars.
>
> Last year Bolivia announced a $900 million (628 million euro)
> investment for lithium in three phases: production of lithium
> carbonate, then metallic lithium and finally, after 2014, lithium
> batteries.
>
> In Argentina, Sales Jujuy, which belongs to the Australian company
> Orocobre and is associated with automaker Toyota, just received the
> go-ahead to mine lithium and potassium.
>
> Several other companies are exploring Argentina's lithium-mining
> areas, including the Canadian Lithium Americas, the Australian Ady
> Resources and the French company Bollore et Eramet.
> [© 2011 AFP. All rights reserved]
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
> ...
> http://www.americanlithium.com/
> ...
> http://paguntaka.org/2009/10/17/north-arrow-lithium-mining-drilling-in-north-carolina-u-s/
> ...
> http://www.westernlithium.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/South-American-cartel-could-control-85-of-the-world-s-lithium-tp3643078p3643078.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

brucedp5
In reply to this post by brucedp4
My original post had links to U.S. Lithium mines to offset the
possible attempt at a death-grip/choke-hold by a cartel.

I found a couple pieces on Japan finding new Pacific Lithium finds
mentioned:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304760604576425230759407002.html
Rare-Earth Reserves Found in Pacific Ocean  JULY 4, 2011

http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/04/huge-rare-earth-deposits-found-in-pacific-japan-experts.html
Huge rare earth deposits found in Pacific -Japan experts




... Sidebar
I find it interesting how some of evdl's posts are filtered/blocked
from being posted on the diy archive (or is it just my newswire posts
being censored?). This newswire post was not allowed through to the
diy archive.

This fact is not ego bruising, but a shame. Lithium mines also
produce other rare earths/mineral elements, so one would think a post
on the supply of what goes into an EV would be of value for the EV
community (?!?).

It isn't until evdl members reply to my diy-filtered post (like
you-all did) that the diy people get to read it. A be it second hand
in a reply with the original post:
>
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves
>

This is why I post on the evdl and not on the diy, so all can view
them, now and hopefully future readers as well.
... Sidebar -off-




{brucedp.150m.com}




On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:55 -0700, "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@qualcomm.com> wrote:
> Of course, this is neglecting the recent find of "rare earths" on the
> floor of the Pacific.  And the re-opening of the mines in the US.  :)
>
> Cheers,
>      Peter
-
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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by evan foss
Evan Foss wrote:
> But people should be recycling lithum so once the market in a given
> nation has a fleet of cars on the road they should only need more in
> relatively smaller quantities.

They should... but they don't. And they won't, unless there are laws
etc. making it *mandatory*. In today's US political climate, that won't
happen.

There are laws that require recycling lead; so something like 96% of
lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types of batteries
that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

Peri Hartman
The good news is that lithium is recyclable.  My take: price will call the
shots.  When it becomes too expensive to import (and deal with cartels),
recycling will be in vogue.

An aside: one day, I envision our landfills as being highly sought mining
areas.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: 04 July, 2011 10:44 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] South American cartel could control 85% of the world's
lithium

Evan Foss wrote:
> But people should be recycling lithum so once the market in a given
> nation has a fleet of cars on the road they should only need more in
> relatively smaller quantities.

They should... but they don't. And they won't, unless there are laws etc.
making it *mandatory*. In today's US political climate, that won't happen.

There are laws that require recycling lead; so something like 96% of
lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types of batteries
that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
The lead-acid battery manufacturing folks are not giving realistic
numbers on the fraction of lead that is actually recycled,
unfortunately. Once you look into it carefully, there is something
not quite right about the numbers.

The 96% number is the percentage of recovered lead from the batteries
that arrive at the recycling plant. It is _not_ the percentage of
lead that is recovered from the batteries that are produced.

You can see the overall picture when you look at what fraction of the
lead used to produce batteries comes from recycled sources, and you
also look at the fraction of all the lead produced that goes into
making batteries. Lead-acid batteries use, at most, 80% recycled lead
in their manufacture. (Many batteries use much more "virgin"
unrecycled lead.) Because lead is toxic, substitutes are now used
wherever possible. Thus, lead-acid battery production uses about 80%
of _all_ the lead produced, both virgin and recycled.

         You can see the problem with the numbers. If only 80% (or
less) of the lead in batteries comes from recycled sources, but
supposedly 96% of the lead is recycled, where is the 16% difference
in recycled lead going? There is not enough lead used in products
other than batteries to absorb this amount of recycled lead. The
production of lead-acid batteries is essentially the same each year.
Thus, a significant fraction of lead-acid batteries are not being recycled.

Bill D.



>There are laws that require recycling lead; so something like 96% of
>lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types of batteries
>that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
It is important to keep in mind that the Li_Ion cells used in EVs
only contain ~ 2% Lithium carbonate and they will last the lifetime
of the car. (Perhaps even more in secondary uses.) We aren't going to
need Lithium like we used to need lead because the batteries weigh
less per kW-hr, and they last ten times longer (in the type we will
put in cars.)

        Read "Bottled Lightning" to get a very good picture of the world's
lithium supply. It is not going to be a problem.
http://www.amazon.com/Bottled-Lightning-Superbatteries-Electric-Lithium/dp/0809030535

        I very much enjoyed reading this book. If you are interested in the
history of Li-Ion batteries, then you will like this book.

Bill Dube'
       

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world'slithium

Bob Martin-4
In reply to this post by brucedp4
Hey Bruce, A huge deposit of Lithium has been discovered in Afghanastan and
it looks like the US is planning on controlling it. Check it out, the USGS
knew about it since 2007 and the Pentagon made the connection in 2009, I
think this was when the military was redirected to Afghanastan----- Original
Message -----
From: "brucedp4" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] South American cartel could control 85% of the
world'slithium


>
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hy88VXCp0vjw_XHlZO_-s7dE2t7Q?docId=CNG.d86ceec20706af0a574a3d87e2ba3a1c.ec1
> Argentina considers OPEC-like deal for lithium
> By Liliana Samuel  07/01/2011
>
> BUENOS AIRES — Argentina is promoting the idea of an OPEC-like cartel
> for itself, Bolivia and Chile, which together control 85 percent of
> the world's reserves of lithium, a key component in electric car
> batteries.
>
> "In the near future and with our production at such a high level,
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile will control the lithium market," said
> Rodolfo Tecchi, the director of the technology and science promotion
> division of the Argentine Ministry of Science and Technology.
>
> "They could do it with a sort of OPEC-like arrangement," he added.
> The three countries, which Forbes magazine calls the "Saudi Arabia of
> lithium," would establish "control mechanisms for the sale of lithium
> carbonate, avoiding the lower prices that come with overproduction,"
> he added, an idea at the heart of OPEC's operations.
>
> Not everyone in the industry agrees, including the head of the
> Argentina chamber of mining industries in the province of Salta,
> Facundo Huidobro. "The idea is a bit premature," said Huidobro. "We
> have to make sure that investments have been made."
>
> Salta, along with the northern provinces of Jujuy and Catamarca,
> contain Argentina's largest lithium deposits.
>
> Argentina has about 10 percent of the world's reserves, after Chile,
> with 25 percent in Atacama, in the north of the country, and Bolivia,
> which holds about half the world's supply in Uyuni, the world's
> largest salt flat.
>
> Sales of lithium by Chile, on the other hand, represent 44 percent
> of worldwide revenue, followed by Australia, with 25 percent, China
> with 13 percent and Argentina with 11 percent.
>
> A ton of lithium, worth $2,500 in 2004, now sells for around $6,000.
> While lithium is also used for cellphone and computer batteries,
> experts expect its greatest use will be in electric cars.
>
> Last year Bolivia announced a $900 million (628 million euro)
> investment for lithium in three phases: production of lithium
> carbonate, then metallic lithium and finally, after 2014, lithium
> batteries.
>
> In Argentina, Sales Jujuy, which belongs to the Australian company
> Orocobre and is associated with automaker Toyota, just received the
> go-ahead to mine lithium and potassium.
>
> Several other companies are exploring Argentina's lithium-mining
> areas, including the Canadian Lithium Americas, the Australian Ady
> Resources and the French company Bollore et Eramet.
> [© 2011 AFP. All rights reserved]
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
> ...
> http://www.americanlithium.com/
> ...
> http://paguntaka.org/2009/10/17/north-arrow-lithium-mining-drilling-in-north-carolina-u-s/
> ...
> http://www.westernlithium.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/South-American-cartel-could-control-85-of-the-world-s-lithium-tp3643078p3643078.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of theworld'slithium

Peri Hartman
Oh, gosh, I thought we were there for humanitarian reasons :)  Silly me.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Bob Martin
Sent: 05 July, 2011 9:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] South American cartel could control 85% of
theworld'slithium

Hey Bruce, A huge deposit of Lithium has been discovered in Afghanastan and
it looks like the US is planning on controlling it. Check it out, the USGS
knew about it since 2007 and the Pentagon made the connection in 2009, I
think this was when the military was redirected to Afghanastan----- Original
Message -----
From: "brucedp4" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] South American cartel could control 85% of the
world'slithium


>
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile: the Saudi Arabia of lithium reserves
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hy88VXCp0vjw_XHlZO_
> -s7dE2t7Q?docId=CNG.d86ceec20706af0a574a3d87e2ba3a1c.ec1
> Argentina considers OPEC-like deal for lithium By Liliana Samuel  
> 07/01/2011
>
> BUENOS AIRES - Argentina is promoting the idea of an OPEC-like cartel
> for itself, Bolivia and Chile, which together control 85 percent of
> the world's reserves of lithium, a key component in electric car
> batteries.
>
> "In the near future and with our production at such a high level,
> Bolivia, Argentina and Chile will control the lithium market," said
> Rodolfo Tecchi, the director of the technology and science promotion
> division of the Argentine Ministry of Science and Technology.
>
> "They could do it with a sort of OPEC-like arrangement," he added.
> The three countries, which Forbes magazine calls the "Saudi Arabia of
> lithium," would establish "control mechanisms for the sale of lithium
> carbonate, avoiding the lower prices that come with overproduction,"
> he added, an idea at the heart of OPEC's operations.
>
> Not everyone in the industry agrees, including the head of the
> Argentina chamber of mining industries in the province of Salta,
> Facundo Huidobro. "The idea is a bit premature," said Huidobro. "We
> have to make sure that investments have been made."
>
> Salta, along with the northern provinces of Jujuy and Catamarca,
> contain Argentina's largest lithium deposits.
>
> Argentina has about 10 percent of the world's reserves, after Chile,
> with 25 percent in Atacama, in the north of the country, and Bolivia,
> which holds about half the world's supply in Uyuni, the world's
> largest salt flat.
>
> Sales of lithium by Chile, on the other hand, represent 44 percent of
> worldwide revenue, followed by Australia, with 25 percent, China with
> 13 percent and Argentina with 11 percent.
>
> A ton of lithium, worth $2,500 in 2004, now sells for around $6,000.
> While lithium is also used for cellphone and computer batteries,
> experts expect its greatest use will be in electric cars.
>
> Last year Bolivia announced a $900 million (628 million euro)
> investment for lithium in three phases: production of lithium
> carbonate, then metallic lithium and finally, after 2014, lithium
> batteries.
>
> In Argentina, Sales Jujuy, which belongs to the Australian company
> Orocobre and is associated with automaker Toyota, just received the
> go-ahead to mine lithium and potassium.
>
> Several other companies are exploring Argentina's lithium-mining
> areas, including the Canadian Lithium Americas, the Australian Ady
> Resources and the French company Bollore et Eramet.
> [C 2011 AFP. All rights reserved]
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
> ...
> http://www.americanlithium.com/
> ...
> http://paguntaka.org/2009/10/17/north-arrow-lithium-mining-drilling-in
> -north-carolina-u-s/
> ...
> http://www.westernlithium.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/South-Ame
> rican-cartel-could-control-85-of-the-world-s-lithium-tp3643078p3643078
> .html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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>

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of theworld'slithium

EVDL Administrator
> ... the US is planning on controlling it ...

> I thought we were there for humanitarian reasons ...

Folks, just a reminder to keep politics off of the EVDL.  Stay on topic,
please, and save the partisan stuff for the ballot box.

Thanks.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Jay Donnaway
In reply to this post by Bill Dube

Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little game you allege: that the battery smelters claim 4% losses in their process rather than the conventional definition of a recovery rate.  When I was running the annual recovery rate census at Oregon DEQ, we were very careful about such claims, and based recovery rates strictly on the tonnage sold versus the tonnage that entered the recycling system each year, without adjustment for losses in secondary manufacturing.  Being a mature and valuable commodity, lead battery recovery rates fluctuated from year-to-year, sometimes exceeding 100% in a period much as we have recently seen: a down economy with high commodity pricing.  Scrap batteries, some of them ancient, come from all directions when the value of lead heads skyward! (Want an Edison cell glass case, anyone?- put in a standing order at your local scrapper..)  Import/export of scrap batteries and recovered ingot has greatly muddled the numbers as well.

One bit of battery recycling trivia that some may find interesting is that modern plastic recycling owes a lot to the lead battery.  Sanders Lead Co. in Troy, Alabama built an early plastic recycling plant in 1981 to deal with all of the scrap polypropylene cases that were left from their battery breaking operation.  Trying to find something to do with excess capacity on their plastic line, the company started buying HDPE milk bottles for recycling in the late 1980's (HDPE floats in a water wash, just like polypropylene).  Today, the resulting KW Plastics Co. is much larger than the lead smelter, and in addition to being one of the largest HDPE and Polypropylene recyclers on earth, also manufactures those black plastic one gallon paint cans that made a relic out of the steel paint can, out of recycled resin, of course!
Most lead smelters in the US did not survive the dawn of environmental regulation in the 1980's, but Wiley Sanders (yep, that's the name) made the best of it..

-Jay Donnaway




Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:17:31 -0600
rom: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
ubject: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number
o: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
essage-ID: <[hidden email]>
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
The lead-acid battery manufacturing folks are not giving realistic
umbers on the fraction of lead that is actually recycled,
nfortunately. Once you look into it carefully, there is something
ot quite right about the numbers.
The 96% number is the percentage of recovered lead from the batteries
hat arrive at the recycling plant. It is _not_ the percentage of
ead that is recovered from the batteries that are produced.
You can see the overall picture when you look at what fraction of the
ead used to produce batteries comes from recycled sources, and you
lso look at the fraction of all the lead produced that goes into
aking batteries. Lead-acid batteries use, at most, 80% recycled lead
n their manufacture. (Many batteries use much more "virgin"
nrecycled lead.) Because lead is toxic, substitutes are now used
herever possible. Thus, lead-acid battery production uses about 80%
f _all_ the lead produced, both virgin and recycled.
         You can see the problem with the numbers. If only 80% (or
ess) of the lead in batteries comes from recycled sources, but
upposedly 96% of the lead is recycled, where is the 16% difference
n recycled lead going? There is not enough lead used in products
ther than batteries to absorb this amount of recycled lead. The
roduction of lead-acid batteries is essentially the same each year.
hus, a significant fraction of lead-acid batteries are not being recycled.
Bill D.

>There are laws that require recycling lead; so something like 96% of
lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types of batteries
that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(




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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Bill Dube
The fact that a _lot_ of virgin lead goes into the manufacture of
batteries means that a similar amount is being lost in the battery
recycling loop.

It is tough to track lead-acid batteries cradle-to-grave. It isn't
just retail battery sales. They come from many sources when installed
in equipment, such as cars, toys, tools, and UPS.

As you say, the collection rate goes up when scrap lead prices go up
and goes down when scrap prices go down. This demonstrates that the
collection is never 100%, but is dependant on scrap price.

I should note for large batteries, like would be used in EVs, fork
lifts, golf carts, battery banks, etc. the collection rate is very
near 100%. As the battery size goes down, and the volume/number of
"dead" batteries at a specific location or point of use goes down,
the recycling percentage goes down too. For example, a single 5 lb
AGM in a toy scooter is very likely to be tossed in the trash
(perhaps with the scooter) instead of being recycled.

As I noted in the first post the fact that, at most, 80% of recycled
lead (20% virgin lead, at least) is used to make new batteries tells
you that there is a lot of lead "escaping" the recycling loop
"somewhere." For the recycling rate to be near 100%, the recycled
lead input for battery manufacture would have to be about the same as
the output of the battery recycling industry. There are two reason
for this: 1) Battery manufacture uses most of the lead produced. 2)
The total tons of lead-acid batteries produced is not going up or
down very much each year. There is thus a net loss of lead in the
loop. There has to be. The amount of "leakage" is roughly the amount
of virgin lead consumed by battery manufacture.


At 06:09 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:

>Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little game you
>allege: that the battery smelters claim 4% losses in their process
>rather than the conventional definition of a recovery rate.  When I
>was running the annual recovery rate census at Oregon DEQ, we were
>very careful about such claims, and based recovery rates strictly on
>the tonnage sold versus the tonnage that entered the recycling
>system each year, without adjustment for losses in secondary
>manufacturing.  Being a mature and valuable commodity, lead battery
>recovery rates fluctuated from year-to-year, sometimes exceeding
>100% in a period much as we have recently seen: a down economy with
>high commodity pricing.  Scrap batteries, some of them ancient, come
>from all directions when the value of lead heads skyward! (Want an
>Edison cell glass case, anyone?- put in a standing order at your
>local scrapper..)  Import/export of scrap batteries and recovered
>ingot has greatly muddled the numbers as well.
>
>One bit of battery recycling trivia that some may find interesting
>is that modern plastic recycling owes a lot to the lead
>battery.  Sanders Lead Co. in Troy, Alabama built an early plastic
>recycling plant in 1981 to deal with all of the scrap polypropylene
>cases that were left from their battery breaking operation.  Trying
>to find something to do with excess capacity on their plastic line,
>the company started buying HDPE milk bottles for recycling in the
>late 1980's (HDPE floats in a water wash, just like
>polypropylene).  Today, the resulting KW Plastics Co. is much larger
>than the lead smelter, and in addition to being one of the largest
>HDPE and Polypropylene recyclers on earth, also manufactures those
>black plastic one gallon paint cans that made a relic out of the
>steel paint can, out of recycled resin, of course!
>Most lead smelters in the US did not survive the dawn of
>environmental regulation in the 1980's, but Wiley Sanders (yep,
>that's the name) made the best of it..
>
>-Jay Donnaway
>
>
>
>
>Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:17:31 -0600
>rom: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
>ubject: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number
>o: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>essage-ID: <[hidden email]>
>ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>The lead-acid battery manufacturing folks are not giving realistic
>umbers on the fraction of lead that is actually recycled,
>nfortunately. Once you look into it carefully, there is something
>ot quite right about the numbers.
>The 96% number is the percentage of recovered lead from the batteries
>hat arrive at the recycling plant. It is _not_ the percentage of
>ead that is recovered from the batteries that are produced.
>You can see the overall picture when you look at what fraction of the
>ead used to produce batteries comes from recycled sources, and you
>lso look at the fraction of all the lead produced that goes into
>aking batteries. Lead-acid batteries use, at most, 80% recycled lead
>n their manufacture. (Many batteries use much more "virgin"
>nrecycled lead.) Because lead is toxic, substitutes are now used
>herever possible. Thus, lead-acid battery production uses about 80%
>f _all_ the lead produced, both virgin and recycled.
>          You can see the problem with the numbers. If only 80% (or
>ess) of the lead in batteries comes from recycled sources, but
>upposedly 96% of the lead is recycled, where is the 16% difference
>n recycled lead going? There is not enough lead used in products
>ther than batteries to absorb this amount of recycled lead. The
>roduction of lead-acid batteries is essentially the same each year.
>hus, a significant fraction of lead-acid batteries are not being recycled.
>Bill D.
>
> >There are laws that require recycling lead; so something like 96% of
>lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types of batteries
>that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(
>
>
>
>
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>_______________________________________________
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>| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>|
>| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Thos True
Is it possible that the perceived discrepancy between the recycled amount
and the virgin amount could be due to an ever increasing demand for
batteries (both regionally and globally)?
There is a huge after market demand, as well as the demand at the
manufacturing level for vehicles as well as  UPS sytems ( I have helped with
5 of these systems on local contruction sites over the past 3 years, and all
used lead-acid  batteries).
-Tom

On Jul 5, 2011 5:55 PM, "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]> wrote:

The fact that a _lot_ of virgin lead goes into the manufacture of
batteries means that a similar amount is being lost in the battery
recycling loop.

It is tough to track lead-acid batteries cradle-to-grave. It isn't
just retail battery sales. They come from many sources when installed
in equipment, such as cars, toys, tools, and UPS.

As you say, the collection rate goes up when scrap lead prices go up
and goes down when scrap prices go down. This demonstrates that the
collection is never 100%, but is dependant on scrap price.

I should note for large batteries, like would be used in EVs, fork
lifts, golf carts, battery banks, etc. the collection rate is very
near 100%. As the battery size goes down, and the volume/number of
"dead" batteries at a specific location or point of use goes down,
the recycling percentage goes down too. For example, a single 5 lb
AGM in a toy scooter is very likely to be tossed in the trash
(perhaps with the scooter) instead of being recycled.

As I noted in the first post the fact that, at most, 80% of recycled
lead (20% virgin lead, at least) is used to make new batteries tells
you that there is a lot of lead "escaping" the recycling loop
"somewhere." For the recycling rate to be near 100%, the recycled
lead input for battery manufacture would have to be about the same as
the output of the battery recycling industry. There are two reason
for this: 1) Battery manufacture uses most of the lead produced. 2)
The total tons of lead-acid batteries produced is not going up or
down very much each year. There is thus a net loss of lead in the
loop. There has to be. The amount of "leakage" is roughly the amount
of virgin lead consumed by battery manufacture.



At 06:09 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:

>Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little game yo...
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Dan Bentler
Other uses for lead include
lead crystal
lead ballast for marine applications
lead for radiation shielding
lead for munitions including some primers
lead sheathed electical cable
solder especially electrical
albeit not much anymore but lead paint and ceramic glazes
alloys

Dan Bentler


--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Thos True <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Thos True <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 7:52 PM
> Is it possible that the perceived
> discrepancy between the recycled amount
> and the virgin amount could be due to an ever increasing
> demand for
> batteries (both regionally and globally)?
> There is a huge after market demand, as well as the demand
> at the
> manufacturing level for vehicles as well as  UPS
> sytems ( I have helped with
> 5 of these systems on local contruction sites over the past
> 3 years, and all
> used lead-acid  batteries).
> -Tom
>
> On Jul 5, 2011 5:55 PM, "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> The fact that a _lot_ of virgin lead goes into the
> manufacture of
> batteries means that a similar amount is being lost in the
> battery
> recycling loop.
>
> It is tough to track lead-acid batteries cradle-to-grave.
> It isn't
> just retail battery sales. They come from many sources when
> installed
> in equipment, such as cars, toys, tools, and UPS.
>
> As you say, the collection rate goes up when scrap lead
> prices go up
> and goes down when scrap prices go down. This demonstrates
> that the
> collection is never 100%, but is dependant on scrap price.
>
> I should note for large batteries, like would be used in
> EVs, fork
> lifts, golf carts, battery banks, etc. the collection rate
> is very
> near 100%. As the battery size goes down, and the
> volume/number of
> "dead" batteries at a specific location or point of use
> goes down,
> the recycling percentage goes down too. For example, a
> single 5 lb
> AGM in a toy scooter is very likely to be tossed in the
> trash
> (perhaps with the scooter) instead of being recycled.
>
> As I noted in the first post the fact that, at most, 80% of
> recycled
> lead (20% virgin lead, at least) is used to make new
> batteries tells
> you that there is a lot of lead "escaping" the recycling
> loop
> "somewhere." For the recycling rate to be near 100%, the
> recycled
> lead input for battery manufacture would have to be about
> the same as
> the output of the battery recycling industry. There are two
> reason
> for this: 1) Battery manufacture uses most of the lead
> produced. 2)
> The total tons of lead-acid batteries produced is not going
> up or
> down very much each year. There is thus a net loss of lead
> in the
> loop. There has to be. The amount of "leakage" is roughly
> the amount
> of virgin lead consumed by battery manufacture.
>
>
>
> At 06:09 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:
>
> >Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little
> game yo...
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>

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| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Dan Bentler
In reply to this post by Jay Donnaway
Jay

Do you know if the lead battery recycle plant in St Helens is still operating?

Dan Bentler

--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Jay Donnaway <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jay Donnaway <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 5:09 PM
>
> Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little
> game you allege: that the battery smelters claim 4% losses
> in their process rather than the conventional definition of
> a recovery rate.  When I was running the annual
> recovery rate census at Oregon DEQ, we were very careful
> about such claims, and based recovery rates strictly on the
> tonnage sold versus the tonnage that entered the recycling
> system each year, without adjustment for losses in secondary
> manufacturing.  Being a mature and valuable commodity,
> lead battery recovery rates fluctuated from year-to-year,
> sometimes exceeding 100% in a period much as we have
> recently seen: a down economy with high commodity
> pricing.  Scrap batteries, some of them ancient, come
> from all directions when the value of lead heads skyward!
> (Want an Edison cell glass case, anyone?- put in a standing
> order at your local scrapper..)  Import/export of scrap
> batteries and recovered ingot has greatly muddled the
> numbers as well.
>
> One bit of battery recycling trivia that some may find
> interesting is that modern plastic recycling owes a lot to
> the lead battery.  Sanders Lead Co. in Troy, Alabama
> built an early plastic recycling plant in 1981 to deal with
> all of the scrap polypropylene cases that were left from
> their battery breaking operation.  Trying to find
> something to do with excess capacity on their plastic line,
> the company started buying HDPE milk bottles for recycling
> in the late 1980's (HDPE floats in a water wash, just like
> polypropylene).  Today, the resulting KW Plastics Co.
> is much larger than the lead smelter, and in addition to
> being one of the largest HDPE and Polypropylene recyclers on
> earth, also manufactures those black plastic one gallon
> paint cans that made a relic out of the steel paint can, out
> of recycled resin, of course!
> Most lead smelters in the US did not survive the dawn of
> environmental regulation in the 1980's, but Wiley Sanders
> (yep, that's the name) made the best of it..
>
> -Jay Donnaway
>
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:17:31 -0600
> rom: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
> ubject: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the
> number
> o: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> essage-ID: <[hidden email]>
> ontent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> The lead-acid battery manufacturing folks are not giving
> realistic
> umbers on the fraction of lead that is actually recycled,
> nfortunately. Once you look into it carefully, there is
> something
> ot quite right about the numbers.
> The 96% number is the percentage of recovered lead from the
> batteries
> hat arrive at the recycling plant. It is _not_ the
> percentage of
> ead that is recovered from the batteries that are
> produced.
> You can see the overall picture when you look at what
> fraction of the
> ead used to produce batteries comes from recycled sources,
> and you
> lso look at the fraction of all the lead produced that goes
> into
> aking batteries. Lead-acid batteries use, at most, 80%
> recycled lead
> n their manufacture. (Many batteries use much more "virgin"
>
> nrecycled lead.) Because lead is toxic, substitutes are now
> used
> herever possible. Thus, lead-acid battery production uses
> about 80%
> f _all_ the lead produced, both virgin and recycled.
>          You can see the
> problem with the numbers. If only 80% (or
> ess) of the lead in batteries comes from recycled sources,
> but
> upposedly 96% of the lead is recycled, where is the 16%
> difference
> n recycled lead going? There is not enough lead used in
> products
> ther than batteries to absorb this amount of recycled lead.
> The
> roduction of lead-acid batteries is essentially the same
> each year.
> hus, a significant fraction of lead-acid batteries are not
> being recycled.
> Bill D.
>
> >There are laws that require recycling lead; so
> something like 96% of
> lead-acid batteries get recycled. The number of other types
> of batteries
> that get recycled is so far negligible. :-(
>
>
>
>
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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Thos True
I did not manage to find the total world production figures for
lead-acid batteries. I searched a bit on the web, but no luck.

         I can't imagine that the production tonnage ramps up 20%
each and every year, however. That is what it would have to be to
account for the virgin lead used each year for battery manufacture.
The highest percentage of recycled lead for any battery manufacturer
is 80%. Many use even less recycled lead.


At 08:52 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:
>Is it possible that the perceived discrepancy between the recycled amount
>and the virgin amount could be due to an ever increasing demand for
>batteries (both regionally and globally)?

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Re: South American cartel could control 85% of the world's lithium

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
On 7/4/2011 10:23 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
> It is important to keep in mind that the Li_Ion cells used in EVs
> only contain ~ 2% Lithium carbonate and they will last the lifetime
> of the car. (Perhaps even more in secondary uses.)

Well... we can dream. Cars last a decade or more. What examples do we
have that lithium batteries will last that long?

I have great faith in the power of industry to design things to be as
cheap as possible, and not last any longer than absolutely necessary. :-(

> Read "Bottled Lightning"...

Thanks. I'll look for it!

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Dan Bentler
Only 20% of all the lead produced is used for products other than
lead-acid batteries. (Just as I said in my original post.)

         That percentage goes down each year because of the toxic
nature of lead. The regulations make manufacture and disposal
expensive, so economics "push" the lead out of products. Solder (with
rare exception) no longer contains lead, for example. Electronic
components are (with rare exception) 100% lead free. Shotgun
ammunition no longer contains lead. Folks don't use alloys of lead if
they can avoid it.

At 09:31 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:

>Other uses for lead include
>lead crystal
>lead ballast for marine applications
>lead for radiation shielding
>lead for munitions including some primers
>lead sheathed electical cable
>solder especially electrical
>albeit not much anymore but lead paint and ceramic glazes
>alloys
>
>Dan Bentler
>
>
>--- On Tue, 7/5/11, Thos True <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Thos True <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 7:52 PM
> > Is it possible that the perceived
> > discrepancy between the recycled amount
> > and the virgin amount could be due to an ever increasing
> > demand for
> > batteries (both regionally and globally)?
> > There is a huge after market demand, as well as the demand
> > at the
> > manufacturing level for vehicles as well as  UPS
> > sytems ( I have helped with
> > 5 of these systems on local contruction sites over the past
> > 3 years, and all
> > used lead-acid  batteries).
> > -Tom
> >
> > On Jul 5, 2011 5:55 PM, "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > The fact that a _lot_ of virgin lead goes into the
> > manufacture of
> > batteries means that a similar amount is being lost in the
> > battery
> > recycling loop.
> >
> > It is tough to track lead-acid batteries cradle-to-grave.
> > It isn't
> > just retail battery sales. They come from many sources when
> > installed
> > in equipment, such as cars, toys, tools, and UPS.
> >
> > As you say, the collection rate goes up when scrap lead
> > prices go up
> > and goes down when scrap prices go down. This demonstrates
> > that the
> > collection is never 100%, but is dependant on scrap price.
> >
> > I should note for large batteries, like would be used in
> > EVs, fork
> > lifts, golf carts, battery banks, etc. the collection rate
> > is very
> > near 100%. As the battery size goes down, and the
> > volume/number of
> > "dead" batteries at a specific location or point of use
> > goes down,
> > the recycling percentage goes down too. For example, a
> > single 5 lb
> > AGM in a toy scooter is very likely to be tossed in the
> > trash
> > (perhaps with the scooter) instead of being recycled.
> >
> > As I noted in the first post the fact that, at most, 80% of
> > recycled
> > lead (20% virgin lead, at least) is used to make new
> > batteries tells
> > you that there is a lot of lead "escaping" the recycling
> > loop
> > "somewhere." For the recycling rate to be near 100%, the
> > recycled
> > lead input for battery manufacture would have to be about
> > the same as
> > the output of the battery recycling industry. There are two
> > reason
> > for this: 1) Battery manufacture uses most of the lead
> > produced. 2)
> > The total tons of lead-acid batteries produced is not going
> > up or
> > down very much each year. There is thus a net loss of lead
> > in the
> > loop. There has to be. The amount of "leakage" is roughly
> > the amount
> > of virgin lead consumed by battery manufacture.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:09 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:
> >
> > >Bill, I'd be interested in documentation of that little
> > game yo...
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Re: Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

Tom Keenan
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I wonder how much was lost as expended ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan?  Might be a
significant part of the requirement for increased production... and I doubt any
of it has been recovered.



----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 8:57:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead recycling, 96% is not really the number

I did not manage to find the total world production figures for
lead-acid batteries. I searched a bit on the web, but no luck.

         I can't imagine that the production tonnage ramps up 20%
each and every year, however. That is what it would have to be to
account for the virgin lead used each year for battery manufacture.
The highest percentage of recycled lead for any battery manufacturer
is 80%. Many use even less recycled lead.


At 08:52 PM 7/5/2011, you wrote:
>Is it possible that the perceived discrepancy between the recycled amount
>and the virgin amount could be due to an ever increasing demand for
>batteries (both regionally and globally)?

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