Sunrise EV questions

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Sunrise EV questions

AMPhibian
I've read the original Sunrise did a 377 mile run with NiMH but was unclear of the pack size.  I thought the standard pack was 26KWH but have heard the 377 mile run was done with a larger pack.
Additionally, does anyone know what came of this project, mapping of the Sunrise body:
http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/379/
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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
On 8/18/2010 6:58 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
>
> I've read the original Sunrise did a 377 mile run with NiMH but was unclear
> of the pack size.  I thought the standard pack was 26KWH but have heard the
> 377 mile run was done with a larger pack.

I believe solectria was using 24 12v 90ah GM/Ovonic nimh batteries for
this run. This would indeed be a 26kw pack. However, the record runs
were often done with the car stripped down to be as light as possible.

> Additionally, does anyone know what came of this project, mapping of the
> Sunrise body:
> http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/379/
> http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/379/

Yes; that was our Sunrise EV2 body that they scanned. The data was sent
to a team of students from MIT who were working on an entry for the
Progressive X-prize. Their car was actually going to being built in
India. Last I heard, they wandered off-task and never got it finished.

But we are still working out our Sunrrise EV2. (I really need to update
the website). Progress has been slow, but steady. We have a running
chassis, and are now working on the body. It's no show car, but rather a
test mule to demonstrate feasibility of construction and proof of
performance.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Lee Hart on "Hack a Day"!

Steven Ciciora
Please excuse the off-topic-ness, but as I've seen a few posts by other predominant members posting what they have been up to technology related (but not EV related) I'm assuming I can get away with this once or twice.

http://hackaday.com/2010/08/19/lee-harts-memebership-card/

- Steven Ciciora



     

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Did you get the data files from the scanning?  Seems as if it would be very useful in a production situation.  Plug the info into a 5 axis router and machine a plug mold.  
Lee Hart wrote
> Additionally, does anyone know what came of this project, mapping of the
> Sunrise body:
> http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/379/
> http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/379/

Yes; that was our Sunrise EV2 body that they scanned. The data was sent
to a team of students from MIT who were working on an entry for the
Progressive X-prize. Their car was actually going to being built in
India. Last I heard, they wandered off-task and never got it finished.

But we are still working out our Sunrrise EV2. (I really need to update
the website). Progress has been slow, but steady. We have a running
chassis, and are now working on the body. It's no show car, but rather a
test mule to demonstrate feasibility of construction and proof of
performance.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
On 8/19/2010 12:12 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> Did you get the data files from the scanning?  Seems as if it would be very
> useful in a production situation.  Plug the info into a 5 axis router and
> machine a plug mold.

Yes, I did. But they haven't helped us any, as we have no one CAD savvy
enough to put them to use! :-(

At some point, I want to use this data to make files that builders can
put to good use. One method is the Burt Rutan moldless composite
construction. The CAD models produce templates of a body part ever few
inches. Print the templates, transfer them to thin plywood, and mount
them on stringers the appropriate distance apart. Fill the space between
them with foam. Use a hot wire to cut the foam away, leaving the 3D
contour of the desired surface. Make your composite part on this foam
surface.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Don C
Hi Lee,

did you get my past two email notes about the CAD work?  I have not got any reply.  I checked my spam filter too.

Don

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
On 8/19/2010 6:35 PM, Don C wrote:
> did you get my past two email notes about the CAD work?  I have not got any
> reply.  I checked my spam filter too.

Sure did! I'm having trouble sending it, though. The files are large,
and earthlink limits my upload sizes. I'm checking to see if I can find
another way to do it. Maybe burn them on a CD and mail it, or get you a
link to pick them up from GKS's server (the folks that scanned it for us).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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RE: Sunrise EV questions

Don C
OK, Lee.  I can set up an FTP account - do you have an FTP client like FileZilla?
 
 


From: Lee Hart [via Electric Vehicle Discussion List] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: August-19-10 5:17 PM
To: Don C
Subject: Re: Sunrise EV questions

On 8/19/2010 6:35 PM, Don C wrote:
> did you get my past two email notes about the CAD work?  I have not got any
> reply.  I checked my spam filter too.

Sure did! I'm having trouble sending it, though. The files are large,
and earthlink limits my upload sizes. I'm checking to see if I can find
another way to do it. Maybe burn them on a CD and mail it, or get you a
link to pick them up from GKS's server (the folks that scanned it for us).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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RE: Sunrise EV questions

Don C
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Oops - I just realized what "earthlink limits my upload sizes" means. 


From: Lee Hart [via Electric Vehicle Discussion List] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: August-19-10 5:17 PM
To: Don C
Subject: Re: Sunrise EV questions

On 8/19/2010 6:35 PM, Don C wrote:
> did you get my past two email notes about the CAD work?  I have not got any
> reply.  I checked my spam filter too.

Sure did! I'm having trouble sending it, though. The files are large,
and earthlink limits my upload sizes. I'm checking to see if I can find
another way to do it. Maybe burn them on a CD and mail it, or get you a
link to pick them up from GKS's server (the folks that scanned it for us).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
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Re: Sunrise EV questions

StarMage187
Hello. I don't mean to butt into a conversation, but I'd like to offer help. I
could setup a FTP on the servers at the office, and Lee could rar the files into
sizes small enough to be sent through his connection. It would still take a long
time to up load, but it could be done and then once it was done they would
available on a server with a fiber optic internet connection. Just thought I'd
make a suggestion and offer some free hosting if it would your project out.


P.S. For those that don't know, I thought that I would explain the rar
suggestion. Winrar (or7zip) allows you to set the archive part size when making
a file. If your upload limit per file is 10mb, then you can make X number of 10
mb files and upload them one at a time.  





________________________________
From: Don C <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 7:33:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise EV questions


Oops - I just realized what "earthlink limits my upload sizes" means.  

  _____  

From: Lee Hart [via Electric Vehicle Discussion List]
[mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: August-19-10 5:17 PM
To: Don C
Subject: Re: Sunrise EV questions


On 8/19/2010 6:35 PM, Don C wrote:
> did you get my past two email notes about the CAD work?  I have not got
any
> reply.  I checked my spam filter too.

Sure did! I'm having trouble sending it, though. The files are large,
and earthlink limits my upload sizes. I'm checking to see if I can find
another way to do it. Maybe burn them on a CD and mail it, or get you a
link to pick them up from GKS's server (the folks that scanned it for us).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Did you ever consider contacting a fiberglass kit car manufacturer?  You might be able to convince them there is a market for a lightweight aerodynamic design such as the Sunrise, especially with the growing interest in EVs.  http://www.usbody.com/ is the largest one that I know of, though there are many others.

Lee Hart wrote
On 8/19/2010 12:12 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> Did you get the data files from the scanning?  Seems as if it would be very
> useful in a production situation.  Plug the info into a 5 axis router and
> machine a plug mold.

Yes, I did. But they haven't helped us any, as we have no one CAD savvy
enough to put them to use! :-(

At some point, I want to use this data to make files that builders can
put to good use. One method is the Burt Rutan moldless composite
construction. The CAD models produce templates of a body part ever few
inches. Print the templates, transfer them to thin plywood, and mount
them on stringers the appropriate distance apart. Fill the space between
them with foam. Use a hot wire to cut the foam away, leaving the 3D
contour of the desired surface. Make your composite part on this foam
surface.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
On 8/19/2010 9:14 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> Did you ever consider contacting a fiberglass kit car manufacturer?  You
> might be able to convince them there is a market for a lightweight
> aerodynamic design such as the Sunrise, especially with the growing interest
> in EVs.  http://www.usbody.com/ is the largest one that I know of, though
> there are many others.

This would be easy to do. But normal kit car bodies are built with
chopper gun fiberglass and polyester resin. They look good, but are
heavy and weak.

The Sunrise body is much lighter and stronger. Like most steel bodied
cars, it is a structural part (unibody). This complicates the
fabrication, but is one of the keys to having a high performance EV.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

AMPhibian
True, but some places advertise hand laminated bodies.  Regardless, once you have a mold built you can use any resin and laminating schedule you wish, even carbon fiber and epoxy resin.  Ideally you'd use some sort of vacuum bagging or high pressure system.  I support your efforts but it seems without some manufacturing support you have a long road ahead of you.  Of course I'm sure you're already aware of that.

Lee Hart wrote
On 8/19/2010 9:14 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> Did you ever consider contacting a fiberglass kit car manufacturer?  You
> might be able to convince them there is a market for a lightweight
> aerodynamic design such as the Sunrise, especially with the growing interest
> in EVs.  http://www.usbody.com/ is the largest one that I know of, though
> there are many others.

This would be easy to do. But normal kit car bodies are built with
chopper gun fiberglass and polyester resin. They look good, but are
heavy and weak.

The Sunrise body is much lighter and stronger. Like most steel bodied
cars, it is a structural part (unibody). This complicates the
fabrication, but is one of the keys to having a high performance EV.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Peter VanDerWal
They already have the Sunrise body.  Wouldn't the easiest way to make a
mold be to make it on the existing body?

Granted the CAD files would be very useful if they were planning on making
significant changes to the body, but I was under the impression that the
body was pretty good as is.

>
> True, but some places advertise hand laminated bodies.  Regardless, once
> you
> have a mold built you can use any resin and laminating schedule you wish,
> even carbon fiber and epoxy resin.  Ideally you'd use some sort of vacuum
> bagging or high pressure system.  I support your efforts but it seems
> without some manufacturing support you have a long road ahead of you.  Of
> course I'm sure you're already aware of that.
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> On 8/19/2010 9:14 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
>>> Did you ever consider contacting a fiberglass kit car manufacturer?
>>> You
>>> might be able to convince them there is a market for a lightweight
>>> aerodynamic design such as the Sunrise, especially with the growing
>>> interest
>>> in EVs.  http://www.usbody.com/ is the largest one that I know of,
>>> though
>>> there are many others.
>>
>> This would be easy to do. But normal kit car bodies are built with
>> chopper gun fiberglass and polyester resin. They look good, but are
>> heavy and weak.
>>
>> The Sunrise body is much lighter and stronger. Like most steel bodied
>> cars, it is a structural part (unibody). This complicates the
>> fabrication, but is one of the keys to having a high performance EV.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Sunrise-EV-questions-tp2330506p2332434.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
On 8/20/2010 7:53 AM, AMPhibian wrote:
> True, but some places advertise hand laminated bodies.  Regardless, once you
> have a mold built you can use any resin and laminating schedule you wish,
> even carbon fiber and epoxy resin.  Ideally you'd use some sort of vacuum
> bagging or high pressure system.  I support your efforts but it seems
> without some manufacturing support you have a long road ahead of you.  Of
> course I'm sure you're already aware of that.

There are two types of commercial fiberglass parts. First, the cheap
heavy weak chopper gun / polyester resin stuff you see for boats, kit
cars, fiberglass bathtub surrounds, etc. Second, the ultra-light thin
weak stuff you see for racing parts (hoods, fenders, etc.)

The "good stuff" that we want for the Sunrise is more like what you find
in the aircraft industry. "Orange board" honeycomb panels, foam core /
carbon fiber / epoxy resin composites etc. that are extremely strong and
light. Commercial products are hideously expensive, but you can make
your own.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Sunrise EV questions

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
On 8/20/2010 8:17 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> They already have the Sunrise body.  Wouldn't the easiest way to make a
> mold be to make it on the existing body?
>
> Granted the CAD files would be very useful if they were planning on making
> significant changes to the body, but I was under the impression that the
> body was pretty good as is.

(Peter, my direct replies to you are bouncing. Can you send me a
different email that works, or add my address to your spam filter?)

We had access to the original Solectria molds; but they were built for
high volume production, and the setup charges were far too high. Plus,
there were changes and improvements we want to make. The original
Sunrise had no real bumpers, tiny wheel wells, troublesome "kit-car"
doors, non-opening plastic windows, etc.

So, we are indeed using the Solectria body to make our own molds. This
involves cutting out what we don't want, splicing in what we do, and
lots of bodywork to blend the edges together. For example, the fixed
plastic rear window has been replaced with the glass rear hatch from the
2001-2004 Mercury Cougar.

The goal for having the CAD files was to make it easier to *test fit*
the pieces. For instance, blending the T'bird doors in place of the
Sunrise doors, to get proper hinges, latches, weatherstrips, and
rolldown windows. In practice, we haven't been able to manipulate the
CAD files, so this hasn't worked.

Longer term, having CAD files makes it easier to distribute plans that
people can build, even if they don't have access to the molds that we
do. Shipping bodies is expensive! Some may prefer to build their own,
either to substitute their time for money, or because they want to
change things.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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