Tango goes to Xprize finals

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Tango goes to Xprize finals

Jim Coate-2
I was happy to see the Tango has made it to the finals round of the
X-prize competition, as one of the 5 cars in the Tandem category. Rick
has been at this long before the contest came about so nice to see his
progress. One of the knockout round tests required acceleration from
0-60 in under 18 seconds. Reports I saw had the Tango do it in a much
more exciting 5 seconds. Apparently some cars, at least in other
categories, couldn't pass the acceleration test at all.

Standings at:
  http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/team-central

There are a number of electrics in the side-by-side 2-seater category,
but I'm not familiar with any of them. The mainstream 4-passenger
category has just one team remaining, running two ethanol cars... from
my hometown (almost).



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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

rodhower
More information on all of the cars listed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Insurance_Automotive_X_Prize

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Jim Coate <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jim Coate <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Tango goes to Xprize finals
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 11:58 AM
> I was happy to see the Tango has made
> it to the finals round of the
> X-prize competition, as one of the 5 cars in the Tandem
> category. Rick
> has been at this long before the contest came about so nice
> to see his
> progress. One of the knockout round tests required
> acceleration from
> 0-60 in under 18 seconds. Reports I saw had the Tango do it
> in a much
> more exciting 5 seconds. Apparently some cars, at least in
> other
> categories, couldn't pass the acceleration test at all.
>
> Standings at:
>   http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/team-central
>
> There are a number of electrics in the side-by-side
> 2-seater category,
> but I'm not familiar with any of them. The mainstream
> 4-passenger
> category has just one team remaining, running two ethanol
> cars... from
> my hometown (almost).
>
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = =
> NOTE: Mail sent to the "NO_REPLY" address will *not* reach
> me.
> To send me a private message, please follow the directions
> here:
> http://www.coate.org/contact_jim/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = =
>
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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Marc Michon
In reply to this post by Jim Coate-2
my money is on the Tango
no doubt Rick will blow them away
the Tango is bad ass
really fine vehicle

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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Stephen Chapman
Is this still the two motor design?

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Marc michon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> my money is on the Tango
> no doubt Rick will blow them away
> the Tango is bad ass
> really fine vehicle
>
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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Bob Rice-2

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Chapman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tango goes to Xprize finals


> Is this still the two motor design?
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Marc michon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> my money is on the Tango
>> no doubt Rick will blow them away
>> the Tango is bad ass
>> really fine vehicle

   Yes! Rick has worked SO hard to bring it to life. Although It is a
limited market, like a Tesla, it should be out there and offered?

      Sea Ya

      Bob

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X-Prize Knockout Round Results

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by Marc Michon
Hello folks,

Here's the link to the PDF that shows the results of the X-Prize Knockout Round:

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/Knockout_Final_Results_v1.0_06-29-10.pdf

The measured MPGe of the teams in this round -- remember this is the Combined number from the City, Urban, and Highway tests:

American HyPower  54.5
Spira                           84.8
FVT eVaro               152.5
Zap                            111.0
Tata                           134.3
Electric Raceabout 128.1
AMP                            86.7
West Philly (MS)       63.5
West Philly (Alt)        53.7
Global-E                    50.4
Li-ion                        182.3
Aptera                       140.1
TW4XP                     107.0
WSU                          92.5
X-Tracer (#72)        180.0
X-Tracer (#79)        188.8
Illuminati                  119.8
Enginer                      53.0
Edison2 (#95 Alt)     97.0
Edison2 (#97 MS) 101.4
Edison2 (#98 MS)   80.3

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2

On Jul 1, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Bob Rice wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Chapman" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tango goes to Xprize finals
>
>
>> Is this still the two motor design?
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Marc michon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> my money is on the Tango
>>> no doubt Rick will blow them away
>>> the Tango is bad ass
>>> really fine vehicle
>
>   Yes! Rick has worked SO hard to bring it to life. Although It is a
> limited market, like a Tesla, it should be out there and offered?


You know the Tango is an interesting product.  There will be those who  
won't even consider it because it is so different from their concept  
of what a car is supposed to be.  On the other hand there will be  
those that will buy it explicitly because it is different.  Of course,  
the market will be tiny if it stays at $100K.




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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Stephen Chapman
I really like the wheeled battery rack with a tandem seating body approach,
but I definitely cannot afford one.  I wonder if a kit approach to this car
would work, one that would not have to meet all the safety regs with airbags
and such...
Stephen Chapman

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On Jul 1, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen Chapman" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 8:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tango goes to Xprize finals
> >
> >
> >> Is this still the two motor design?
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Marc michon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> my money is on the Tango
> >>> no doubt Rick will blow them away
> >>> the Tango is bad ass
> >>> really fine vehicle
> >
> >   Yes! Rick has worked SO hard to bring it to life. Although It is a
> > limited market, like a Tesla, it should be out there and offered?
>
>
> You know the Tango is an interesting product.  There will be those who
> won't even consider it because it is so different from their concept
> of what a car is supposed to be.  On the other hand there will be
> those that will buy it explicitly because it is different.  Of course,
> the market will be tiny if it stays at $100K.
>
>
>
>
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Re: X-Prize Knockout Round Results

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
On 7/1/2010 8:21 AM, Neil Blanchard wrote:
> The measured MPGe of the teams in this round -- remember this is the
> Combined number from the City, Urban, and Highway tests:

You forgot the Tango: 86.8 MPGe.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Tango goes to Xprize finals

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Roger Heuckeroth
On 7/1/2010 10:20 AM, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> You know the Tango is an interesting product.  There will be those who
> won't even consider it because it is so different from their concept
> of what a car is supposed to be.  On the other hand there will be
> those that will buy it explicitly because it is different.  Of course,
> the market will be tiny if it stays at $100K.

Rick's whole idea was to build commuter cars (thus the same of the
company - Commuter Cars Inc.) Build a narrow car for commuting, that
takes half the space on the highways and a quarter of the parking space.
Half the frontal area to cut wind resistance and increase fuel economy.
Short enough so it can park crossways on a commuter train flatcars, so
you can drive to the station and onto the train, and arrive with your car.

But investors have other ideas. They won't invest in commuter cars, and
think Tesla etc. are showing the way - build $100,000 sports cars
instead. Until Rick can find investors that think otherwise, he's stuck
building expensive sports cars.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: X-Prize Knockout Round Results

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
I wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> Here's the link to the PDF that shows the results of the X-Prize Knockout Round:
>
> http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/Knockout_Final_Results_v1.0_06-29-10.pdf
>
> The measured MPGe of the teams in this round -- remember this is the Combined number from the City, Urban, and Highway tests:
>
> American HyPower  54.5
> Spira                           84.8
> FVT eVaro               152.5
> Zap                            111.0
> Tata                           134.3
> Electric Raceabout 128.1
> AMP                            86.7
> West Philly (MS)       63.5
> West Philly (Alt)        53.7
> Global-E                    50.4
> Li-ion                        182.3
> Aptera                       140.1
> TW4XP                     107.0
> WSU                          92.5
Tango                            86.8    
BITW                             51.1  
> X-Tracer (#72)        180.0
> X-Tracer (#79)        188.8
> Illuminati                  119.8
> Enginer                      53.0
> Edison2 (#95 Alt)     97.0
> Edison2 (#97 MS) 101.4
> Edison2 (#98 MS)   80.3


I inadvertently skipped the Tango and the BITW cars.

I think these results speak for themselves!  The electric cars are in general, giving much better efficiency, and several of those (the X-Tracer, FVT, Tata, and the Aptera) also have excellent acceleration.  The Li-ion,  Illuminati, TW4XP, and Edison2 (among others) were not as quick -- the Li-ion and Edison2 cars are through to the finals, though.  I am sad that neither the FVT eVaro nor the Illuminati Seven made it through, due to (relatively) minor technical reasons.  They failed at the moment (which is how racing/competitions work, to be sure), but I think their problems are solvable, and the strong merits of their vehicles are obvious.

The Aptera is through, but still a bit disappointing -- it's aero is equal or better to anybody (save the X-Tracer), but their efficiency seems to have suffered.  It barely betters the Tata, which is "just" a well executed EV conversion of a decent but ordinary hatchback.  The Global-E had an ignition mapping error that made their number lower.

So the lowest MPGe of an electric drive; the AMP'd Sky was 86.7MPGe (Tango was 86.8), while the best of a car with an internal combustion is the Edison2 #97 at 101.4.  (Actually, the FVT has a ICE powered generator onboard, but did not need it *at all* in the X-Prize.)  The hybrids all were all below the 67MPGe -- except the WSU at 92.5 (and the FVT).

The average of the 12 vehicles using electric drive MPGe (I'm including the FVT in this) was 134.7MPGe
The average of the 6 hybrids (not including the FVT) was 61.26MPGe
The average of the 5 internal combustion drive cars was 82.92MPGe

The X-Prize results table does not include weights, but I daresay that the average weight of the internal combustion cars was lowest (the Edison2 and Spira are all much lighter!).

The best aero drag is on the X-Tracer, followed by a very close group including the Aptera, Edison2, Li-ion.

As many have said, the X-Prize is setting a very high standard (which is both good and bad).  They are essentially looking for the complete package, and virtually no glitches.  Even the well financed/professional teams had several glitches.  I would have set up the X-Prize a bit differently; to measure (and therefore emphasize and encourage) the four main things that need to be improved to get the maximum efficiency.

Those four critical things are; from most important to least important (as I am interpreting the Knockout results):

    Drivetrain Efficiency
    Aerodynamic Drag
    Weight
    Rolling Efficiency

One of the most important things I learned while I was at the X-Prize Knockout competition was: do not dismiss or ignore anybody!  There is a LOT more than meets the eye with all of the entrants, and no matter the results, all the designs have strengths – and weaknesses that are all very informative.

I also was floored by the height of passion by so many people.  The sight of Oliver Kuttner with tears streaming down his face; returning from the starting line of the City Test with the first of his cars about to actually get to the heart of the matter; moves me to tears, as well.  And I'm quite sure that every person involved in the X-Prize, who has put in a similar Herculean effort, feels the same.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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Re: X-Prize Knockout Round Results

Mike Golub-2
Which watt meters do they use to measure the electricity used?

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > Here's the link to the PDF that shows the results of the X-Prize Knockout
> Round:
> >
> >
> http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/Knockout_Final_Results_v1.0_06-29-10.pdf
> >
> > The measured MPGe of the teams in this round -- remember this is the
> Combined number from the City, Urban, and Highway tests:
> >
> > American HyPower  54.5
> > Spira                           84.8
> > FVT eVaro               152.5
> > Zap                            111.0
> > Tata                           134.3
> > Electric Raceabout 128.1
> > AMP                            86.7
> > West Philly (MS)       63.5
> > West Philly (Alt)        53.7
> > Global-E                    50.4
> > Li-ion                        182.3
> > Aptera                       140.1
> > TW4XP                     107.0
> > WSU                          92.5
> Tango                            86.8
> BITW                             51.1
> > X-Tracer (#72)        180.0
> > X-Tracer (#79)        188.8
> > Illuminati                  119.8
> > Enginer                      53.0
> > Edison2 (#95 Alt)     97.0
> > Edison2 (#97 MS) 101.4
> > Edison2 (#98 MS)   80.3
>
>
> I inadvertently skipped the Tango and the BITW cars.
>
> I think these results speak for themselves!  The electric cars are in
> general, giving much better efficiency, and several of those (the X-Tracer,
> FVT, Tata, and the Aptera) also have excellent acceleration.  The Li-ion,
>  Illuminati, TW4XP, and Edison2 (among others) were not as quick -- the
> Li-ion and Edison2 cars are through to the finals, though.  I am sad that
> neither the FVT eVaro nor the Illuminati Seven made it through, due to
> (relatively) minor technical reasons.  They failed at the moment (which is
> how racing/competitions work, to be sure), but I think their problems are
> solvable, and the strong merits of their vehicles are obvious.
>
> The Aptera is through, but still a bit disappointing -- it's aero is equal
> or better to anybody (save the X-Tracer), but their efficiency seems to have
> suffered.  It barely betters the Tata, which is "just" a well executed EV
> conversion of a decent but ordinary hatchback.  The Global-E had an ignition
> mapping error that made their number lower.
>
> So the lowest MPGe of an electric drive; the AMP'd Sky was 86.7MPGe (Tango
> was 86.8), while the best of a car with an internal combustion is the
> Edison2 #97 at 101.4.  (Actually, the FVT has a ICE powered generator
> onboard, but did not need it *at all* in the X-Prize.)  The hybrids all were
> all below the 67MPGe -- except the WSU at 92.5 (and the FVT).
>
> The average of the 12 vehicles using electric drive MPGe (I'm including the
> FVT in this) was 134.7MPGe
> The average of the 6 hybrids (not including the FVT) was 61.26MPGe
> The average of the 5 internal combustion drive cars was 82.92MPGe
>
> The X-Prize results table does not include weights, but I daresay that the
> average weight of the internal combustion cars was lowest (the Edison2 and
> Spira are all much lighter!).
>
> The best aero drag is on the X-Tracer, followed by a very close group
> including the Aptera, Edison2, Li-ion.
>
> As many have said, the X-Prize is setting a very high standard (which is
> both good and bad).  They are essentially looking for the complete package,
> and virtually no glitches.  Even the well financed/professional teams had
> several glitches.  I would have set up the X-Prize a bit differently; to
> measure (and therefore emphasize and encourage) the four main things that
> need to be improved to get the maximum efficiency.
>
> Those four critical things are; from most important to least important (as
> I am interpreting the Knockout results):
>
>    Drivetrain Efficiency
>    Aerodynamic Drag
>    Weight
>    Rolling Efficiency
>
> One of the most important things I learned while I was at the X-Prize
> Knockout competition was: do not dismiss or ignore anybody!  There is a LOT
> more than meets the eye with all of the entrants, and no matter the results,
> all the designs have strengths – and weaknesses that are all very
> informative.
>
> I also was floored by the height of passion by so many people.  The sight
> of Oliver Kuttner with tears streaming down his face; returning from the
> starting line of the City Test with the first of his cars about to actually
> get to the heart of the matter; moves me to tears, as well.  And I'm quite
> sure that every person involved in the X-Prize, who has put in a similar
> Herculean effort, feels the same.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
>
>
>
>
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