Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

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Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
after being used to replace lead acid batteries.

It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).

They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
impressive show....

https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/


Jay
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Listen especially to the end of that video.
Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was designed.
I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the question
from the FD).
Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
Cor.

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email] wrote:

> Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
> after being used to replace lead acid batteries.
>
> It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).
>
> They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
> impressive show....
>
>
> https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/
>
>
> Jay
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

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He has a you tube channel called Rich Rebuilds where he documented the whole thing. They didn’t even tie the batteries down they were just laying in the back

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Listen especially to the end of that video.
> Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was designed.
> I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
> turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the question
> from the FD).
> Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
> Cor.
>
>> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
>> after being used to replace lead acid batteries.
>>
>> It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into flames).
>>
>> They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
>> impressive show....
>>
>>
>> https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/
>>
>>
>> Jay
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

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I'm really surprised he didn't consider the risk. There have been so
many li-ion battery fires and for so many years that it's hard to
ignore.
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 04-Dec-18 3:39:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

>He has a you tube channel called Rich Rebuilds where he documented the
>whole thing. They didn’t even tie the batteries down they were just
>laying in the back
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
>><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>Listen especially to the end of that video.
>>Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was
>>designed.
>>I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
>>turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the
>>question
>>from the FD).
>>Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
>>Cor.
>>
>>>On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email]
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
>>>after being used to replace lead acid batteries.
>>>
>>>It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into
>>>flames).
>>>
>>>They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
>>>impressive show....
>>>
>>>
>>>https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/
>>>
>>>
>>>Jay
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.

The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
once.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

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I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal runaway.

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
>
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> once.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The video does not specify what went wrong to cause the first cell(s) into thermal runaway and catch on fire.
The Tesla Li cells may potentially do that if (internally) shorted due to manufacturing defect or failure to maintain them within required voltage range.
The cells may have been charged before placing them into the vehicle, especially if the pack was low beforehand it is tempting to put a charge on them for fear of them going dead, or the pack module may have rested on some metal parts (rear diff or frame support) that touched the pack in more than one place and shorted it. I hope Rich will post another update on the car to tell the whole story.
It is easy for a dead pack (which has high internal resistance) to share charging voltage unevenly, causing some cells to get excessive voltage due to those cells being the *lowest* in Soc, highest in resistance and thus get the most charge voltage. The other thing of cause is that the pack may have discharged to the point that some cells were at zero (or even reversed, which is even more damaging) while still in the dead Tesla and then charged without BMS before being placed in the car. But that is all speculation right now. Fact is that at least 1 cell had a thermal runaway, started spitting fire and eventually the entirely of the two modules burned in a spectacular fireworks spitting burning cells in all directions…
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Matthew Quitter via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matthew Quitter
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal runaway.

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
>
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> once.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a long way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would detect.  I did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 😊

Damon
________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matthew Quitter
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal runaway.

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
>
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> once.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I've watched some of the Rich Rebuilds videos.  I wouldn't characterize his style as being overly concerned with subtlety, care, or safety.

Some of the more scary points of the videos I watched:

  -  Disassembly of the car involving a sledge hammer.
  -  Dropping the pack to replace the contactors.  Reassembly consisted of lowering the car on the lift down to the pack, without checking fine alignment.  Of course, it wasn't aligned right, causing coolant to leak all over the floor, and who knows what other damage.

I would actually like to have more people taking apart their Tesla, and learning how they work to help expand the knowledge base, but I've put those videos on my list of "what not to do".

Unfortunately, this adds to the "another Tesla caught fire" swirl.

Mike

> On December 4, 2018 at 1:00 PM Damon Henry via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a long way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would detect.  I did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 😊
>
> Damon
> ________________________________
> From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Matthew Quitter
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...
>
> I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.
>
> From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?
>
> Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!
>
> Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic casing and rested against something conductive?!
>
> I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal runaway.
>
> Matthew
>
> London Electric Cars
>
>
> > On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> > need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> > that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> >
> > The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> > sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> > lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> > once.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I rather have someone who learns the hard way and posts about it, so everyone else who cares can avoid the mistakes he made, than someone who stays away from it all because it sounds too dangerous.
BTW, this will not count as a Tesla fire, it is a bunch of cells in an old buggy, nobody who watches the whole video will see this as Tesla fire, despite the title of the Youtube posting to get attention and use the familiar name….

I applaud him for being honest enough to admit the mistakes he made and show the consequences.
Also showing how, despite the battery fire, they managed to contain it to a damaged buggy and some scorch marks, no burned down buildings or loss of life and limb. Spectacular fireworks yes. Scary moments, certainly. Having a long, serious, conversation with the property owner – expected. But they (inadvertently) did a safety demonstration of what to do and what not, when encountering this type of (battery fire) situation. Great video and a great learning experience.

I hope he continues with what he is already doing, with the increased knowledge.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: - - via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: - -
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I've watched some of the Rich Rebuilds videos.  I wouldn't characterize his style as being overly concerned with subtlety, care, or safety.

Some of the more scary points of the videos I watched:

  -  Disassembly of the car involving a sledge hammer.
  -  Dropping the pack to replace the contactors.  Reassembly consisted of lowering the car on the lift down to the pack, without checking fine alignment.  Of course, it wasn't aligned right, causing coolant to leak all over the floor, and who knows what other damage.

I would actually like to have more people taking apart their Tesla, and learning how they work to help expand the knowledge base, but I've put those videos on my list of "what not to do".

Unfortunately, this adds to the "another Tesla caught fire" swirl.

Mike

> On December 4, 2018 at 1:00 PM Damon Henry via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a long way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would detect.  I did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 😊
>
> Damon
> ________________________________
> From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Matthew Quitter
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...
>
> I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.
>
> From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?
>
> Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!
>
> Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic casing and rested against something conductive?!
>
> I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal runaway.
>
> Matthew
>
> London Electric Cars
>
>
> > On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> > need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> > that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
> >
> > The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> > sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> > lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> > once.
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
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