Tesla question for Phil

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Perhaps Phil would be willing to comment on the possibility of a rapid
and surprise introduction of V2G/V2H on Tesla cars?  That is, is there
any reason the charge port should not be bidirectional?  Is it possible
that a grid/island inverter is built in so that AC power could be
supplied through the charge port?
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I've already covered this subject extensively in several YouTube videos:
https://youtu.be/lXokJEzXwaI
https://youtu.be/UkRk2OQI7RE

Tesla specifically will void your warranty if you use your car for this.
The battery chemistry is not optimized for it, and excepting for
emergencies, it just doesn't make sense.

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 4:12 PM Willie via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Perhaps Phil would be willing to comment on the possibility of a rapid
> and surprise introduction of V2G/V2H on Tesla cars?  That is, is there
> any reason the charge port should not be bidirectional?  Is it possible
> that a grid/island inverter is built in so that AC power could be
> supplied through the charge port?
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210322/4bf3684c/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 3/22/21 8:26 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> I've already covered this subject extensively in several YouTube videos:
> https://youtu.be/lXokJEzXwaI
> https://youtu.be/UkRk2OQI7RE

Thanks, I was mostly unaware of the interest in the subject.  I can not
pretend to fully comprehend your conclusions but I accept them.

This is more investment research for me than any proposal to modify a
Tesla.   Tesla is not known for being caught flat footed while competing
in the market.  Tesla has disavowed any excursion into V2G/V2H.  Yet  VW
has just announced that capability.  Has Tesla been caught flat footed?
Or does Tesla have surprises in store for us?  I had not previously
considered VW to be a real contender against Tesla in the EV market.
Before their "Power Day" announcement, I would not have considered a
buying a VW.  Now, I am reconsidering.

A less desirable solution than the AC in, AC out, that you explored is
DC out to an external gridtie/island inverter.  People have claimed that
it would not be possible to get DC power out of the charge connector on
a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you offer an opinion?
>
> Tesla specifically will void your warranty if you use your car for
> this.  The battery chemistry is not optimized for it, and excepting for
> emergencies, it just doesn't make sense.

Teslas have had 80 amp chargers and Wall Connectors.  That would be 20kw
that could presumable come out also.  The Tesla motors can be supplied,
what?, 600kw from the battery?  PowerWalls do only 5kw in and out from
each battery unit.  A single battery unit is sufficient for many
situations.  Tesla rarely to never configures more than 4 battery units
on a PowerWall.  That is, a Tesla car, with onboard gridtie/island
inverter, can have at least the power capability of the largest PW.  A
Tesla car battery can have near twice the energy storage of the largest
PW configuration.  I just don't see that 20kw from a Tesla car for
V2H/V2G could be much of a strain.

Have you contemplated the possibility that Tesla will offer an external
unit that extracts DC power from Tesla cars?

Incidentally, Tesla has been offering abysmal service on PowerWalls.  Do
you know of any 3rd party service available?
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>  People have claimed that
> it would not be possible to get DC power out of the charge connector on
> a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you offer an opinion?


Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
(and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
"steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)

Jay
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I really wanted to experiment with the DC power connector for V-2-G or
V-to-home till I measured my home under grid-down conditions and found that
my entiere house with LED lights, and the refrigerator draw only about 700
to 800 watts under emergency conditions and so I now have simple 1500W
inverers in my EV cars connected just to the 12v battery for house backup.
Further. here in central Maryland the grid has only gone down once for more
than a few minutes in TEN years.  The 3 kW UPS I have hooked up has NEVER
been used and the 10 kW generator I bought for the heatpumjp fully fails to
ever start as it has never been used.

Bob


On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 12:02 PM Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >  People have claimed that
> > it would not be possible to get DC power out of the charge connector on
> > a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you offer an opinion?
>
>
> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
>
> Jay
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/a6c95b60/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

>
>
> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>   People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
>> offer an opinion?
>
>
> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)

Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
to work at odds with Tesla.  If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
not likely happen.  OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 23 Mar 2021 at 8:04, Willie via EV wrote:

> I had not previously considered VW to be a real contender against Tesla
> in the EV market. Before their "Power Day" announcement, I would not
> have considered a buying a VW.  Now, I am reconsidering.

Here in the US we trail Europe quite a bit for the sheer number of choices
in EVs, formats, styles, and so on.  I'm sure that has to do with the fact
that the mainstream automakers there have to meet fleet CO2 emissions
standards.  They have to sell EVs aggressively if they want to sell their
high-margin ICEV bloat-utes.  Also, eventually some nations will be banning
ICEV sales almost entirely, so they have to gear up.

I'm not a huge fan of VW, having owned a few in my time.  But the ID3 looks
interesting.  Regrettably they won't be offering it in the US any time soon,
probably never.

However they're putting the larger and less efficient ID4 on sale here any
day now, if it isn't already available.  EPA range will be 250mi.  

After the US tax credit the ID4 base price will be $32.5k and in some states
even less. At that price I expect that it will be a strong contender for
folks who like small SUVs.  (Mark, towing capacity is 2200lb for the RWD and
2700lb for the AWD.)

Whether it will have V2G here I can't say, nor can I guess how Tesla might
respond.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
    common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They
    alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable
    if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.

                     -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically) capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a software upgrade.

Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets, possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an average size, energy efficient house.  

Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.  A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.  
Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater, Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.

High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
>>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
>>> offer an opinion?
>>
>> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
>> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
>> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
>> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
>> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
>> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
>> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
>
> Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
> I measured my home under grid-down conditions and found that
> my entiere house with LED lights, and the refrigerator draw only about 700
> to 800 watts under emergency conditions…

How do you heat your water?

Jan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/7567ee62/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 03/23/2021 12:55, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:
> Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.

Boy, I wish.  My minimum load is close to 2.5 KW.  I am really looking
forward to my older son moving out and taking about 2/3 of that with him
(reptile heaters and aquariums).  Will finally be able to start having
below zero monthly consumption from my utility with my 9KW of solar.

--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
When the refer defrost strip-heater kicks in and my house is on the 1.5 kW
inverter, it drops the load and we go dark.  But then simply cycling power
restores is because the drop of power resets the "energy-star" design will
NOT let the defrost come on when power is restored, so you probably get
another LONG delay before it tries again.  I have never understood the
strip heater timing whether it comes on once a day or 8 hours or a week.
And/or what the restart cycle is after a power outage.

Butr so far with our power outages lasting no more than a few minutes to
maybe an hour over the last ten years, I have not had the honor of watching
the defrost timing.
bob

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 3:55 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically)
> capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a
> software upgrade.
>
> Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets,
> possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an
> average size, energy efficient house.
>
> Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more
> than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.
> A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the
> computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't
> allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
> Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't
> go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater,
> Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.
>
> High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
> >>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
> >>> offer an opinion?
> >>
> >> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> >> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> >> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> >> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> >> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> >> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> >> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
> >
> > Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> > to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> > not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> > offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Address messages to [hidden email]
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/66784511/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yes, it's technically possible to extract HV DC from the charge port in a
Tesla.  You then need an external inverter to make AC.  I personally have
done this on 2 occasions with my Tesla for emergency power outages, but
otherwise I don't think it's useful.  You definitely wouldn't want to do it
on a regular basis.



Tesla is not going to do V2G, they have no reason to.  Elon has been asked
this several times and always said "no".   Tesla/Elon doesn't give a shit
what VW is doing.  Elon envisions your car as a robo-taxi, out shuttling
people around when you aren't using it, which is FAR more valuable than a
home battery.  I suspect once we do have level-5 full autonomy, personal
car ownership will evolve to be a rarity, sort of like general aviation is
now.  Most people don't own airplanes, but they use them.  Cars will be the
same.

I repurposed a salvage Model S pack as my emergency home backup, and I
wouldn't have bothered if not for PG&E's corruption and incompetence.
After all the fires in Northern California due to them failing to maintain
their equipment they now have this policy where anytime it's windy, they
will just shut off the power, and I happen to live where it's windy.  If I
was not subject to these "controlled outages", I'd just get a NatGas genset.




On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:04 AM Willie via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/22/21 8:26 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> > I've already covered this subject extensively in several YouTube videos:
> > https://youtu.be/lXokJEzXwaI
> > https://youtu.be/UkRk2OQI7RE
>
> Thanks, I was mostly unaware of the interest in the subject.  I can not
> pretend to fully comprehend your conclusions but I accept them.
>
> This is more investment research for me than any proposal to modify a
> Tesla.   Tesla is not known for being caught flat footed while competing
> in the market.  Tesla has disavowed any excursion into V2G/V2H.  Yet  VW
> has just announced that capability.  Has Tesla been caught flat footed?
> Or does Tesla have surprises in store for us?  I had not previously
> considered VW to be a real contender against Tesla in the EV market.
> Before their "Power Day" announcement, I would not have considered a
> buying a VW.  Now, I am reconsidering.
>
> A less desirable solution than the AC in, AC out, that you explored is
> DC out to an external gridtie/island inverter.  People have claimed that
> it would not be possible to get DC power out of the charge connector on
> a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you offer an opinion?
> >
> > Tesla specifically will void your warranty if you use your car for
> > this.  The battery chemistry is not optimized for it, and excepting for
> > emergencies, it just doesn't make sense.
>
> Teslas have had 80 amp chargers and Wall Connectors.  That would be 20kw
> that could presumable come out also.  The Tesla motors can be supplied,
> what?, 600kw from the battery?  PowerWalls do only 5kw in and out from
> each battery unit.  A single battery unit is sufficient for many
> situations.  Tesla rarely to never configures more than 4 battery units
> on a PowerWall.  That is, a Tesla car, with onboard gridtie/island
> inverter, can have at least the power capability of the largest PW.  A
> Tesla car battery can have near twice the energy storage of the largest
> PW configuration.  I just don't see that 20kw from a Tesla car for
> V2H/V2G could be much of a strain.
>
> Have you contemplated the possibility that Tesla will offer an external
> unit that extracts DC power from Tesla cars?
>
> Incidentally, Tesla has been offering abysmal service on PowerWalls.  Do
> you know of any 3rd party service available?
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/90e1b3dc/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Sorry, no it's not.  I already have debunked this BS claim about a year ago:

On 3/22/21 8:26 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> I've already covered this subject extensively in several YouTube videos:
> https://youtu.be/lXokJEzXwaI
> https://youtu.be/UkRk2OQI7RE


On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 12:55 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically)
> capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a
> software upgrade.
>
> Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets,
> possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an
> average size, energy efficient house.
>
> Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more
> than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.
> A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the
> computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't
> allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
> Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't
> go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater,
> Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.
>
> High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
> >>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
> >>> offer an opinion?
> >>
> >> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> >> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> >> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> >> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> >> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> >> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> >> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
> >
> > Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> > to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> > not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> > offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Address messages to [hidden email]
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/d1be5204/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 > the "energy-star" design will NOT let the
 > defrost come on when power is restored

Curiously, with the somewhat-ancient Kenmore refer here, that's the
~first~ thing it does after a power interruption, run a defrost
cycle. I have to remember yank the cord out of the wall before I
transfer my loads over the the Outback inverter so I can manage
everything into an even keel before letting it have some energy to
play with. I prefer to bring the backup power online, check for
unexpected consumption (maybe I didn't remember to shut off all the
household loads before throwing the transfer switch, don't need to be
running a space heater in the bathroom on the inverter...), bring the
hydro plant back online and check various meter readings, etc. Then
it's time to get the dump load controller running so the excess power
over what it takes to run the house can go into the water heater.
Having the refer gobble power during this transfer process is
counteractive to starting up smoothly.

The cumulative sum of my energy input sources is such that the
batteries are only necessary for load leveling/motor starting, etc,
and I can go for days on end without input from the utility.

Maybe it's time to start shopping for a new retarder (that's what
they call refrigerators in the food service trade).

____________________________________________________________
Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more

21-Year-Old Charged in Boulder Massacre
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a78224e282781638c8st04vuc1
Soldiers Held at Gunpoint While Moving Vaccines
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a7822724d5781638c8st04vuc2
Senator on Biden's $3T Plan: 'We Need to Get It Done'
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a782295ae3781638c8st04vuc3
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Engineer finds Tesla Model 3 is secretly equipped with hardware for powering homes 

 
|  
|  
|  
|   |    |

   |

  |
|  
|   |  
[Updated] Engineer finds Tesla Model 3 is secretly equipped with hardware for powering homes
 
By Matthew Beedham
 
Despite not being that keen on the idea, Tesla seems to have made some of its cars capable of vehicle-to-grid charging, which could power homes.
  |   |

  |

  |

 




Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, March 23, 2021, 2:55 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically) capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a software upgrade.

Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets, possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an average size, energy efficient house. 

Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.  A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc. 
Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater, Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.

High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
>>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
>>> offer an opinion?
>>
>> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
>> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
>> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
>> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
>> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
>> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
>> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
>
> Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210324/66704f67/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
If you're a little bit handy, you can hack a fridge/freezer defrost heater
to gain manual control over it. Then you can force it off to keep peak
loads down, or force it on to address heavy icing that the normal defrost
cycle isn't able to handle. (Either because normal defrost is insufficient,
or because the defrost control board no longer activates defrost like it
should).

Manual control can be as simple as extending the heater power leads to an
accessible place in the fridge where they can be disconnected from the
normal circuit.

One symptom of a defrost control issue is a very very cold freezer
compartment with a simultaneously warm fridge compartment, with ice
blocking the air channels between the two areas. The slow, hours-long way
to treat that situation is to empty and thaw out the whole appliance. The
fast way is to force the defrost heater to melt all the built up ice by
running it longer than the default controls. The heater and ice situation
should be monitored closely if the heater is being manually activated.


On Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 16:36 Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> When the refer defrost strip-heater kicks in and my house is on the 1.5 kW
> inverter, it drops the load and we go dark.  But then simply cycling power
> restores is because the drop of power resets the "energy-star" design will
> NOT let the defrost come on when power is restored, so you probably get
> another LONG delay before it tries again.  I have never understood the
> strip heater timing whether it comes on once a day or 8 hours or a week.
> And/or what the restart cycle is after a power outage.
>
> Butr so far with our power outages lasting no more than a few minutes to
> maybe an hour over the last ten years, I have not had the honor of watching
> the defrost timing.
> bob
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 3:55 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically)
> > capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a
> > software upgrade.
> >
> > Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets,
> > possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps
> an
> > average size, energy efficient house.
> >
> > Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more
> > than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.
> > A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the
> > computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't
> > allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
> > Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't
> > go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater,
> > Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.
> >
> > High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html
> >
> >
> > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> >
> > March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> > >>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
> > >>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
> > >>> offer an opinion?
> > >>
> > >> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> > >> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports
> on
> > >> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> > >> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> > >> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> > >> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> > >> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
> > >
> > > Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> > > to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> > > not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> > > offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Address messages to [hidden email]
> > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Address messages to [hidden email]
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/66784511/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/7745e997/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I debunked this almost a year ago.  The "Engineer" in question is a
software engineer, NOT an EE.  Here's the 3rd time I've posted links to my
videos where I explain why V2G or AC export is not possible in ANY Tesla:

On 3/22/21 8:26 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> I've already covered this subject extensively in several YouTube videos:
> https://youtu.be/lXokJEzXwaI
> https://youtu.be/UkRk2OQI7RE

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 8:47 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Engineer finds Tesla Model 3 is secretly equipped with hardware for
> powering homes
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |   |    |
>
>    |
>
>   |
> |
> |   |
> [Updated] Engineer finds Tesla Model 3 is secretly equipped with hardware
> for powering homes
>
> By Matthew Beedham
>
> Despite not being that keen on the idea, Tesla seems to have made some of
> its cars capable of vehicle-to-grid charging, which could power homes.
>   |   |
>
>   |
>
>   |
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 23, 2021, 2:55 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically)
> capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a
> software upgrade.
>
> Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets,
> possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an
> average size, energy efficient house.
>
> Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more
> than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.
> A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the
> computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't
> allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
> Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't
> go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater,
> Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.
>
> High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
> >>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
> >>> offer an opinion?
> >>
> >> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> >> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> >> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> >> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> >> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> >> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> >> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
> >
> > Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> > to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> > not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> > offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Address messages to [hidden email]
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive
> > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210324/66704f67/attachment.html
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210323/970c0fbd/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Tesla question for Phil

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
If it's an "Energy Star" fridge then its not likely to be a simple timer. More likely it is some kind of algorythm that makes calculations based on how often and how long the door is open, possibly even taking into account humidity, etc.

Might also be some kind of frost sensor.
​​​​​​​
I know on my fridge, I will sometimes see it go into defrost twice in a week, at other times maybe once a month, or less. Definitely not a timer.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key (https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key)

March 23, 2021 2:35 PM, "Robert Bruninga" <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email]?to=%22Robert%20Bruninga%22%20<[hidden email]>)> wrote:
 When the refer defrost strip-heater kicks in and my house is on the 1.5 kW inverter, it drops the load and we go dark. But then simply cycling power restores is because the drop of power resets the "energy-star" design will NOT let the defrost come on when power is restored, so you probably get another LONG delay before it tries again. I have never understood the strip heater timing whether it comes on once a day or 8 hours or a week. And/or what the restart cycle is after a power outage.
Butr so far with our power outages lasting no more than a few minutes to maybe an hour over the last ten years, I have not had the honor of watching the defrost timing.
bob  
 On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 3:55 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])> wrote: Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically) capable of bidirectional capability. So V2G/V2H might just require a software upgrade.

Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets, possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an average size, energy efficient house.

Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more than ~3kw. If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw. A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw. I.E. don't allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater, Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.

High priority loads: https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html (https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html)
My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key (https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key)

March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV" <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])> wrote:

> On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
>>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla. I'm skeptical. Will you
>>> offer an opinion?
>>
>> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
>> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
>> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
>> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
>> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
>> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
>> "steal" power instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
>
> Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub (http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub)
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive (http://www.evdl.org/archive)
> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org (http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org)
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub (http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub)
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ (http://www.evdl.org/archive/)
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org (http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210325/3f32a04e/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
Address messages to [hidden email]
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org