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Rush Dougherty
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brucedp5
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
here is a google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
"It's so expensive!" "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29 AM
 
 
 
 % National Plug-In Day was changed to Drive Electric Week %
 
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 National 'Drive Electric Week' Planned For September, With
 100-Plus Events
 By Stephen Edelstein  Aug 13, 2014
 
 [image 
 http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 National Plug-In Day 2012: San Francisco, with 60 Nissan
 Leafs in front of
 the Golden Gate Bridge
 
 http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan Leafs at Cupertino, CA
 (Photo by Corine
 van Deventer-Geljon)
 ]
 
 If you're an electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 roughly a month from
 now.
 
 In 2011, several organizers looking to promote electric cars
 started
 National Plug-In Day--but apparently one day is no longer
 enough to contain
 advocates' enthusiasm for electric cars.
 
 National Drive Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 21, with 113
 events already scheduled in dozens of cities across the U.S.
 and Canada.
 
 Each event will promote plug-in cars, educating both
 potential buyers and
 the general public about zero-emission vehicles, and how
 they work in
 everyday driving.
 
 As with the National Plug-In Day events in 2011, 2012, and
 2013, National
 Drive Electric Week is a joint project of the advocacy group
 Plug-In
 America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric Auto Association.
 
 
 Previous years' events included plug-in car rallies, test
 drives,
 information sessions, and plenty more.
 
 There are already a few interesting activities planned for
 this year as
 well.
 
 In San Diego, participants will be able to test drive
 different electric
 cars, and grill owners about the ins and outs of plug-in
 ownership.
 
 On the opposite coast, electric cars will join the 2014
 Boston Cup classic
 car show on the city's famous Common. A 1913 Bailey Electric
 Roadster will
 be displayed alongside the latest plug-ins.
 
 A full list of events (searchable by ZIP code) is available
 on the National
 Drive Electric Week website. Take a look to see if there's
 something
 happening in your area.
 
 So if you want to learn more about electric cars, grab a
 notebook and make
 time to head over to the nearest event.
 
 After all, you've got an entire week.
 [© greencarreports.com]
 ...
 https://driveelectricweek.org/events.php
 National Drive Electric Week
 ...
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1067433_national-plug-in-day-roundup-report-of-electric-car-events
 2011
 ...
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079390_national-plug-in-day-draws-thousands-of-electric-car-fans-inquiries
 2012
 ...
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087304_national-plug-in-day-roundup-of-electric-car-activities
 2013
 
 
 
 
 For all EVLN posts use:
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
 
 http://cleantechnica.com/2014/08/12/japan-give-away-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/
 Japan's Plan To Give Away h2 fcvs
 
 http://transportevolved.com/2014/08/13/toyotas-fuel-cell-car-pay-twice-much-per-mile-prius-hatchback/
 Toyota’s fcv Co$t$ Twice as Much per Mile Than a Prius
 hev
 
 http://theenergycollective.com/josephromm/455271/tesla-trumps-toyota-why-hydrogen-cars-can-t-compete-pure-electric-cars
 Tesla Trumps Toyota: Why Hydrogen Cars Can't Compete With
 Pure Electric Cars
 ...
 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/13/3467289/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-car/
 Tesla Trumps Toyota Part II: The Big Problem With h2 fcvs
 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/automobiles/an-epic-road-trip-in-an-electric-tuk-tuk.html
 An Epic Road Trip in a Solar Electric Tuk Tuk
 
 http://www.centralvalleybusinesstimes.com/stories/001/?ID=26496
 Getting an eVgo charge out of grocery shopping
 +
 EVLN: BYD T5 & T7 electric logistics trucks r:250mi
 ts:30mph
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-100-U-S-National-Drive-Electric-Week-Events-Planned-9-15-21-tp4671027.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 archive at Nabble.com.
 _______________________________________________
 UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
 http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
 For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 
 
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brucedp2
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I guess the new question on Telsa cost is how to take account of environmental costs since they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws to build a factory.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:04 AM, robert winfield via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> here is a google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
> "It's so expensive!" "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29 AM
>
>
>
> % National Plug-In Day was changed to Drive Electric Week %
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
> National 'Drive Electric Week' Planned For September, With
> 100-Plus Events
> By Stephen Edelstein  Aug 13, 2014
>
> [image  
> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
> National Plug-In Day 2012: San Francisco, with 60 Nissan
> Leafs in front of
> the Golden Gate Bridge
>
> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
> National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan Leafs at Cupertino, CA
> (Photo by Corine
> van Deventer-Geljon)
> ]
>
> If you're an electric car fan, mark your calendar for
> roughly a month from
> now.
>
> In 2011, several organizers looking to promote electric cars
> started
> National Plug-In Day--but apparently one day is no longer
> enough to contain
> advocates' enthusiasm for electric cars.
>
> National Drive Electric Week will take place September 15 to
> 21, with 113
> events already scheduled in dozens of cities across the U.S.
> and Canada.
>
> Each event will promote plug-in cars, educating both
> potential buyers and
> the general public about zero-emission vehicles, and how
> they work in
> everyday driving.
>
> As with the National Plug-In Day events in 2011, 2012, and
> 2013, National
> Drive Electric Week is a joint project of the advocacy group
> Plug-In
> America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric Auto Association.
>
>
> Previous years' events included plug-in car rallies, test
> drives,
> information sessions, and plenty more.
>
> There
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
as opposed to Hydrogen, which is environmental pornography.
"It only emits H2O, just ignore the witches brew at the intake. can i frack your water supply fields?
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 To: "robert winfield" <[hidden email]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
 
 I guess the new question
 on Telsa cost is how to take account of environmental costs
 since they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
 to build a factory.
 
 Sent
 from my iPhone
 
 > On Aug 17, 2014, at
 7:04 AM, robert winfield via EV <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 >
 > here is a
 google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles
 to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
 > "It's so expensive!"
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 >
 > Subject:
 [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 > To: [hidden email]
 > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29 AM
 >
 >
 >
 > % National Plug-In
 Day was changed to Drive Electric Week %
 >
 > http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 > National 'Drive Electric Week'
 Planned For September, With
 > 100-Plus
 Events
 > By Stephen Edelstein  Aug 13,
 2014
 >
 > [image 
 > http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 > National Plug-In Day 2012: San Francisco,
 with 60 Nissan
 > Leafs in front of
 > the Golden Gate Bridge
 >
 > http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 > National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan Leafs at
 Cupertino, CA
 > (Photo by Corine
 > van Deventer-Geljon)
 >
 ]
 >
 > If you're
 an electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 > roughly a month from
 >
 now.
 >
 > In 2011,
 several organizers looking to promote electric cars
 > started
 > National
 Plug-In Day--but apparently one day is no longer
 > enough to contain
 >
 advocates' enthusiasm for electric cars.
 >
 > National Drive
 Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 > 21, with 113
 > events
 already scheduled in dozens of cities across the U.S.
 > and Canada.
 >
 > Each event will promote plug-in cars,
 educating both
 > potential buyers and
 > the general public about zero-emission
 vehicles, and how
 > they work in
 > everyday driving.
 >
 > As with the National Plug-In Day events in
 2011, 2012, and
 > 2013, National
 > Drive Electric Week is a joint project of
 the advocacy group
 > Plug-In
 > America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric
 Auto Association.
 >
 >
 
 > Previous years' events included
 plug-in car rallies, test
 > drives,
 > information sessions, and plenty more.
 >
 >
 There
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Somehow I missed this, but I must respond.  Mark's post is a particularly
egregious manipulation of the truth.

On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events
> Planned 9/15-21
>  To: "robert winfield" <[hidden email]>, "Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>  Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
>  Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
>
>  I guess the new question
>  on Telsa cost is how to take account of environmental costs
>  since they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
>  to build a factory.
>

​In the article I read from the LA Times, there isn't any indication
whatsoever that Tesla is seeking anything.  This is all being offered by
the state to remain competitive with other states.  Tesla has options.
 They don't need California.  California needs Tesla.​

Also, Mark seems to imply that Tesla wants to be environmentally
irresponsible.  Is it not obvious that would be commercial suicide for
them?  They are in fact NOT seeking exemption from any actual environmental
PROTECTIONS - only the extra review process that is unique to California.
 Tesla could probably teach the reviewers quite a lot about how to build
batteries in an environmentally responsible fashion.  But that extra
process slows things down in California and Tesla needs to move quickly.

So California is acting to avoid the most ironic failure of public policy
in decades.  California is arguably the leader in environmentalism and the
home of the most environmentally significant automaker in history.  Yet
they are in danger of losing thousands of new jobs at the new gigafactory
due to their own environmental review process.  If those jobs go elsewhere
and the gigafactory becomes a shining example of how to do things right,
every politician and activist that stood in the way will be directly
responsible.

Up to now I've regarded Mark as someone who is conscientious, but has a
different view from mine on how best to approach green transportation.  Now
trust enters the picture.

Chris
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Aug 18, 2014, at 4:34 AM, Chris Tromley via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Somehow I missed this, but I must respond.  Mark's post is a particularly
> egregious manipulation of the truth.

Whoa!

>
>> On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events
>> Planned 9/15-21
>> To: "robert winfield" <[hidden email]>, "Electric Vehicle
>> Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
>>
>> I guess the new question
>> on Telsa cost is how to take account of environmental costs
>> since they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
>> to build a factory.
>
> ​In the article I read from the LA Times, there isn't any indication
> whatsoever that Tesla is seeking anything.  This is all being offered by
> the state to remain competitive with other states.  Tesla has options.
> They don't need California.  California needs Tesla.​

I've not read the article, but I can tell you that this is being talked about.  

I can also tell you that if Tesla didn't see this as an issue, there would be no legislation.

Yes, some other states have questionably effective environmental protection laws. They and their residents pay the price, too.


>
> Also, Mark seems to imply that Tesla wants to be environmentally
> irresponsible.

So this is a responsible thing?


>  Is it not obvious that would be commercial suicide for
> them?  They are in fact NOT seeking exemption from any actual environmental
> PROTECTIONS - only the extra review process that is unique to California.

This is simply not true.

The process is not unique, other states have one, too, though they may be somewhat different.

Secondly, while it not a certainty that additional environmental protections would be required, it is wrong to suggest they wouldn't.

I cannot tell you where exactly the facility would be built, but this would free Tesla from requirements to disclose the environmental impacts of the facility.

> Tesla could probably teach the reviewers quite a lot about how to build
> batteries in an environmentally responsible fashion.  

So for clean cars, it's okay to have a dirty factory or poison neighbors?


> But that extra
> process slows things down in California and Tesla needs to move quickly.

Slow down a multi-year project by how much?

Puh-leeze. Our state environmental protection laws can be abused, but normally projects can move forward IF they don't create significant environmental impacts. Still still can even if they do.

>
> So California is acting to avoid the most ironic failure of public policy
> in decades.  California is arguably the leader in environmentalism and the
> home of the most environmentally significant automaker in history.  Yet
> they are in danger of losing thousands of new jobs at the new gigafactory
> due to their own environmental review process.  

So they're going to lose jobs that were never there?

> If those jobs go elsewhere
> and the gigafactory becomes a shining example of how to do things right,
> every politician and activist that stood in the way will be directly
> responsible.

How so?

>
> Up to now I've regarded Mark as someone who is conscientious, but has a
> different view from mine on how best to approach green transportation.  Now
> trust enters the picture.

Exactly. As someone who has lauded what Tesla has done, my trust is any company that "needs" to be exempt from environmental disclosure and protection laws is being tested.

>
> Chris
> -------------- next part --------------
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> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
surrealiously? you started it.
I posted a link to comparison higher end vehicles and Tesla for when folks ask questions, about why they should consider EV vs high end ICE

The link can be used with lower priced vehicles and tweaked for EV's and ICE's of differant costs by fiddling with vehicles

You threw down the gauntlet so try not to be coy.
Do you have something against EV's and for Hydrogen fool cells vehicles?


--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/18/14, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 To: "robert winfield" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Monday, August 18, 2014, 3:23 AM
 
 Huh?
 
 What do Tesla's actions have to do with any
 industry?
 
 Tesla is seeking
 a special exemption to avoid compliance. Are you suggesting
 that this is okay?
 
 Their
 factory is so clean that they need the legislature to help
 them avoid environmental regulations?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 >
 On Aug 17, 2014, at 11:36 PM, robert winfield <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 >
 > as opposed
 to Hydrogen, which is environmental pornography.
 > "It only emits H2O, just ignore the
 witches brew at the intake. can i frack your water supply
 fields?
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 > On Sun, 8/17/14, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 >
 > Subject:
 Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 > To:
 "robert winfield" <[hidden email]>,
 "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
 > Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
 > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
 >
 > I guess the new
 question
 > on Telsa cost is how to take
 account of environmental costs
 > since
 they are SEEKING AN EXEMPTION from ENVIRONMENTAL laws
 > to build a factory.
 >
 
 > Sent
 > from my
 iPhone
 >
 >> On Aug
 17, 2014, at
 > 7:04 AM, robert winfield
 via EV <[hidden email]>
 > wrote:
 >>
 >> here is a
 > google
 docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 > a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high
 end large vehicles
 > to decide on a tesla
 EV that is free for downloading.
 >>
 "It's so expensive!"
 >
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 --------------------------------------------
 >>> On Sun, 8/17/14, brucedp5 via EV
 <[hidden email]>
 >> wrote:
 >>
 >> Subject:
 > [EVDL]
 EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric
 > Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 >> To: [hidden email]
 >> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2014, 7:29
 AM
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> % National
 Plug-In
 > Day was changed to Drive
 Electric Week %
 >>
 >> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093832_national-drive-electric-week-planned-for-september-with-100-plus-events
 >> National 'Drive Electric
 Week'
 > Planned For September,
 With
 >> 100-Plus
 >
 Events
 >> By Stephen Edelstein  Aug
 13,
 > 2014
 >>
 >> [image 
 >> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2012_100403203_l.jpg
 >> National Plug-In Day 2012: San
 Francisco,
 > with 60 Nissan
 >> Leafs in front of
 >> the Golden Gate Bridge
 >>
 >> http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/national-plug-in-day-2013-nissan-leafs-at-cupertino-ca-photo-by-corine-van-deventer-geljon_100442345_l.jpg
 >> National Plug-In Day 2013: Nissan
 Leafs at
 > Cupertino, CA
 >> (Photo by Corine
 >> van Deventer-Geljon)
 > ]
 >>
 >> If you're
 > an
 electric car fan, mark your calendar for
 >> roughly a month from
 > now.
 >>
 >> In 2011,
 > several
 organizers looking to promote electric cars
 >> started
 >>
 National
 > Plug-In Day--but apparently
 one day is no longer
 >> enough to
 contain
 > advocates' enthusiasm for
 electric cars.
 >>
 >> National Drive
 >
 Electric Week will take place September 15 to
 >> 21, with 113
 >>
 events
 > already scheduled in dozens of
 cities across the U.S.
 >> and
 Canada.
 >>
 >>
 Each event will promote plug-in cars,
 >
 educating both
 >> potential buyers
 and
 >> the general public about
 zero-emission
 > vehicles, and how
 >> they work in
 >>
 everyday driving.
 >>
 >> As with the National Plug-In Day
 events in
 > 2011, 2012, and
 >> 2013, National
 >> Drive Electric Week is a joint project
 of
 > the advocacy group
 >> Plug-In
 >>
 America, the Sierra Club, and the Electric
 > Auto Association.
 >
 >> Previous years' events included
 > plug-in car rallies, test
 >> drives,
 >>
 information sessions, and plenty more.
 >
 There
 >
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 08/17/2014 09:04 AM, robert winfield via EV wrote:
> here is a google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
> "It's so expensive!" "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
>
Will someone offer an explanation/definition of the lines "Net", "PV"
and "NPV"?
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark Abramowitz appears to be a long-time member and officer of the
California Hydrogen Business Council.

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye, www.calfrye.com

"Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win." --Jonathon Kozol.

> robert winfield via EV <mailto:[hidden email]>
> August 18, 2014 at 9:59 AM
> surrealiously? you started it.
> I posted a link to comparison higher end vehicles and Tesla for when
> folks ask questions, about why they should consider EV vs high end ICE
>
> The link can be used with lower priced vehicles and tweaked for EV's
> and ICE's of differant costs by fiddling with vehicles
>
> You threw down the gauntlet so try not to be coy.
> Do you have something against EV's and for Hydrogen fool cells vehicles?
>
>
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> On Aug 18, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Chris Tromley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 18, 2014, at 4:34 AM, Chris Tromley via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  
>> > ​In the article I read from the LA Times, there isn't any indication
>> > whatsoever that Tesla is seeking anything.  This is all being offered by
>> > the state to remain competitive with other states.  Tesla has options.
>> > They don't need California.  California needs Tesla.​
>>
>> I've not read the article, but I can tell you that this is being talked about.
>
> ​see http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-tesla-incentives-20140812-story.html
>
> <snip>
> ​
>> Slow down a multi-year project by how much?
>
> ​Enough to delay the development and/or launch of the Model 3, which will depend on gigafactory output.

Tough to believe that Musk, of all people, has such a tight schedule. With all the unknowns, it would be irresponsible for him to engage in such a poor planning effort. He's one of the last people that I would think would be unprepared.


>
> <snip>
> ​
>> Exactly. As someone who has lauded what Tesla has done, my trust is any company that "needs" to be exempt from environmental disclosure and protection laws is being tested.
>
> ​Again, Musk would have to be truly stupid to build and/or operate the gigafactory without exemplary environmental protections in place.  He has demonstrated repeatedly that he is not stupid.​

That's what I would have thought. But this still creates a black mark, to say nothing about the policy implications of carving out special exemptions for people.

>
> California has fast-tracked projects through the environmental review process before.  

Once that I remember - for the stadium - pretty sleazy, in my view.


> What I have suggested elsewhere is that they amend the legislation to allow a real-time monitor-and-advise approach, perhaps with regulators embedded in the project team.  

First and foremost, CEQA is a disclosure requirement, providing disclosure to both the public and decision makers. I don't know what a "real-time monitor-and-advise approach" is, but it sounds like it presumes a lot.

Regulators embedded in project team smacks of back room deals, coziness, rubber stamp approvals,  and from a practical standpoint, almost besides the point.

You don't have much experience with CEQA, do you?  Or the regulatory side?

Sounds like you want predetermined outcome and rubber stamp.

> That or something similar could produce results EVEN BETTER than what the current legislation would yield, and would therefore help silence everyone with an agenda who would prefer to serve their own interests.  All while keeping the project on schedule.

The big agenda out there is weakening CEQA, and this only further makes it difficult to protect.



>
> Sounds pretty innovative to me.  Is California up to it?  I think they are.  Politically I'm not so sure.

Innovation, yes. But I'm not so sure this innovates.

In fact, there are better ways to cut time in the process without messing with CEQA, starting with preferential "go to the front of the line" permitting. I've been pushing that for years. It has a much better impact on time to build than weakening CEQA.


>
> Chris
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
This conversation is definitely not going to get any more attention from
me. Unless you fellows are really intent on us watching you try to
humiliate each other in public (sort of unprofessional, eh?) you might want
to take this to a back channel.

Mike


On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > On Aug 18, 2014, at 7:51 AM, Chris Tromley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 18, 2014, at 4:34 AM, Chris Tromley via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > ​In the article I read from the LA Times, there isn't any indication
> >> > whatsoever that Tesla is seeking anything.  This is all being offered
> by
> >> > the state to remain competitive with other states.  Tesla has options.
> >> > They don't need California.  California needs Tesla.​
> >>
> >> I've not read the article, but I can tell you that this is being talked
> about.
> >
> > ​see
> http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-tesla-incentives-20140812-story.html
> >
> > <snip>
> > ​
> >> Slow down a multi-year project by how much?
> >
> > ​Enough to delay the development and/or launch of the Model 3, which
> will depend on gigafactory output.
>
> Tough to believe that Musk, of all people, has such a tight schedule. With
> all the unknowns, it would be irresponsible for him to engage in such a
> poor planning effort. He's one of the last people that I would think would
> be unprepared.
>
>
> >
> > <snip>
> > ​
> >> Exactly. As someone who has lauded what Tesla has done, my trust is any
> company that "needs" to be exempt from environmental disclosure and
> protection laws is being tested.
> >
> > ​Again, Musk would have to be truly stupid to build and/or operate the
> gigafactory without exemplary environmental protections in place.  He has
> demonstrated repeatedly that he is not stupid.​
>
> That's what I would have thought. But this still creates a black mark, to
> say nothing about the policy implications of carving out special exemptions
> for people.
>
> >
> > California has fast-tracked projects through the environmental review
> process before.
>
> Once that I remember - for the stadium - pretty sleazy, in my view.
>
>
> > What I have suggested elsewhere is that they amend the legislation to
> allow a real-time monitor-and-advise approach, perhaps with regulators
> embedded in the project team.
>
> First and foremost, CEQA is a disclosure requirement, providing disclosure
> to both the public and decision makers. I don't know what a "real-time
> monitor-and-advise approach" is, but it sounds like it presumes a lot.
>
> Regulators embedded in project team smacks of back room deals, coziness,
> rubber stamp approvals,  and from a practical standpoint, almost besides
> the point.
>
> You don't have much experience with CEQA, do you?  Or the regulatory side?
>
> Sounds like you want predetermined outcome and rubber stamp.
>
> > That or something similar could produce results EVEN BETTER than what
> the current legislation would yield, and would therefore help silence
> everyone with an agenda who would prefer to serve their own interests.  All
> while keeping the project on schedule.
>
> The big agenda out there is weakening CEQA, and this only further makes it
> difficult to protect.
>
>
>
> >
> > Sounds pretty innovative to me.  Is California up to it?  I think they
> are.  Politically I'm not so sure.
>
> Innovation, yes. But I'm not so sure this innovates.
>
> In fact, there are better ways to cut time in the process without messing
> with CEQA, starting with preferential "go to the front of the line"
> permitting. I've been pushing that for years. It has a much better impact
> on time to build than weakening CEQA.
>
>
> >
> > Chris
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>
>


--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Folks, if you haven't lately, please read the list conventions here :

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Note especially point 1, "Be collegial and civil."  There's already too much
snarking going on here.  Facts, people, FACTS, not ad hominem attacks.

If you have a hot head, chill it!  This discussion is a significant one, but
folks who have trouble toning it down will be invited to leave.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
npv is Net Present value
========snip===================
DEFINITION
NPV is used in capital budgeting to analyze the profitability of an investment or project.
Net Present Value (NPV)
where:
Ct = net cash inflow during the period
Co= initial investment
r = discount rate, and
t = number of time periods
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/npv.asp
==================snip==============

its a moderately esoteric spreadsheet to a non accountant, designed to justify, or not, the total cost of ownership of a Tesla vs high end ICE vehicles over an 8 year period
It does come out that the Tesla almost wins out, but only at a very slow increase of fuel costs.
It is based on taxes and rates somewhere in northern California.

It appears that it is probably tweakable for lower cost EV's vs similarly priced ICE vehicles.

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/18/14, Willie2 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 100+ U.S. National 'Drive Electric Week' Events Planned 9/15-21
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Monday, August 18, 2014, 10:36 AM
 
 On 08/17/2014 09:04 AM,
 robert winfield via EV wrote:
 > here is a
 google docs link from an engineer who did a cost analysis of
 a honda oddsey vs a tesla and other high end large vehicles
 to decide on a tesla EV that is free for downloading.
 > "It's so expensive!"
 "well, do a total cost of ownership..."
 > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnTJaKTgGoNLdGF6TDJmaVp0LWlPQk8zY1JNMWM2QkE&output=html
 >
 Will someone offer an
 explanation/definition of the lines "Net",
 "PV"
 and "NPV"?
 _______________________________________________
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 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 
 
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.

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Rush Dougherty
.
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Re: EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV & hybrid drivers

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Oddly, the link to the bill referred to includes none of the language being discussed in some of the articles.

The language only authorizes the state motor vehicles folks to makes regulations for special plates. It doesn't even requires them to do so.

Arguably it could apply to at least some FCEVs, as some are hybrids.

For example, yesterday I saw a truck that was a battery dominant FCEV hybrid.

But I agree with your concerns about where the burden seems to be placed, at least according to the articles.(the bill language you linked doesn't do that - it's left to their DMV to decide).

I wonder why they don't just use stickers as is done for CNG and H2 fueled vehicles.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:21 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> % Simple dealer provided stickers will do (like for HOV lane access). The
> law does not apply to fcvs: since when do fcvs not have high-voltages? ...
> This ignorantly & badly written, and poorly implemented 'separate &
> not-equal' law incorrectly labels EVs & hybrids as extraordinarily
> dangerous, as if volatile chemical-fuel is not, plus puts the burden of
> responder-safety on the driver at an additional cost. This issue is a
> vehicle-manufacturer responsibility: to each have common locations for
> high-voltage wiring, like the way fuel-tanks and fuel lines are commonly
> located on ice %
>
> http://www.abc6.com/story/26316308/new-license-plate-may-help-save-lives
> New license plate may help save lives
> Aug 19, 2014  By Alana Cerrone
>
> A new license plate may help protect first responders from accidentally
> electrocuting themselves during accident rescues involving electric
> vehicles.
>
> The bill signed into law by Gov. Lincoln Chafee last month requires electric
> vehicle owners to have a special license plate so that first responders,
> emergency crews, and even two truck drivers know it is electric.
>
> Knowing if a vehicle is electric will help crews decide which instrument is
> appropriate to use to rescue people trapped inside.
>
> “It is not very well-known that rescue workers can get electrocuted from
> using jaws of life on an electric vehicle, but when that information came to
> light I wanted us to be proactive about the issue,” said Senator Edward
> O'Neill, who sponsored the law.
>
> The law applies to electric and also hybrid vehicle owners.
> [© WLNE-TV 2014]
> ...
> http://www.valleybreeze.com/2014-08-06/woonsocket-north-smithfield/state-creates-new-plates-electric-vehicles#.U-eA4mOTKHM
> State creates new plates for electric vehicles
> 8/6/2014
> ...
> http://insideevs.com/rhode-island-issues-special-license-plates-electric-vehicles-protect-first-responders/
> ... create special license plates for electric vehicles? ...
>
>
>
> http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/28152-Are-EV-License-Plates-Dangerous-to-Occupants-of-a-Tesla
> Thread: Are EV License Plates Dangerous to Occupants of a Tesla
> 2014-03-01
> ...
> http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText14/SenateText14/S2120A.pdf
> 2014-S 2120 SUBSTITUTE A ...
> 'a registration plate for motor vehicles powered in whole or in part by a
> storage battery.'
> ...
> http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/pressrelease/_layouts/RIL.PressRelease.ListStructure/Forms/DisplayForm.aspx?List=c8baae31-3c10-431c-8dcd-9dbbe21ce3e9&ID=10091
> 7/31/2014 Electric vehicle license plates will protect first responders,
> rescue service workers
> STATE HOUSE ... The special registration plate will apply to hybrids in
> addition to electric vehicles. Senators Marc A. Cote (D-Dist. 24,
> Woonsocket, North Smithfield), Paul W. Fogarty (D-Dist. 23, Glocester,
> Burrillville, North Smithfield), Nicholas D. Kettle (R-Dist. 21, Coventry,
> Foster, Scituate, West Greenwich) and James E. Doyle II (D-Dist. 8,
> Pawtucket) cosponsored the legislation.
> For more information, contact:
> Brenna McCabe, Publicist
> State House Room 20
> Providence, RI 02903
> (401) 222-2457
>
>
>
>
> For all EVLN posts use:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
>
> http://www.electricautosport.com/2014/08/venturi-realise-600-kmh-electric-speed-record/
> Venturi to realize 600+ km/h electric speed record
>
> http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2007153237
> Julie Wrigley’s sleek, chewing-gum red Tesla-S EV
>
> http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-norway-436-model-s-sedans-are-being-delivered-monthly-teslas-largest-overseas-market-1658946
> 436 Tesla-S Delivered Monthly In Norway> it’s Largest Overseas Market
>
> http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/life/2014/08/14/missoula-family-seeks-record-longest-bike-ride/14087677/
> Missoula family seeks record for longest Electric bicycle ride
>
> http://news.investors.com/081214-712980-tesla-adds-station-in-france.htm
> Tesla adds 50th Euro Supercharger EVSE @Narbonne, France
> +
> EVLN: Tesla-S EV Power-trip e-Journeys from Mexico to Alaska
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Vehicle-apartheid-RI-law-punishes-EV-hybrid-drivers-tp4671102.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Re: EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV & hybrid drivers

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The state of the art for fuel cell powered vehicles mandates a battery and
electric motor system. Because, economical fuel cell systems are only
practical as trickle chargers or range extenders with the battery
concentrating power for accelerating in traffic, or as needed.  Other
Hydrogen systems use the hydrogen as fuel for the ICE.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*[hidden email] <[hidden email]>)*

* Founder:    **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*          You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*    NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Oddly, the link to the bill referred to includes none of the language
> being discussed in some of the articles.
>
> The language only authorizes the state motor vehicles folks to makes
> regulations for special plates. It doesn't even requires them to do so.
>
> Arguably it could apply to at least some FCEVs, as some are hybrids.
>
> For example, yesterday I saw a truck that was a battery dominant FCEV
> hybrid.
>
> But I agree with your concerns about where the burden seems to be placed,
> at least according to the articles.(the bill language you linked doesn't do
> that - it's left to their DMV to decide).
>
> I wonder why they don't just use stickers as is done for CNG and H2 fueled
> vehicles.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:21 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > % Simple dealer provided stickers will do (like for HOV lane access). The
> > law does not apply to fcvs: since when do fcvs not have high-voltages?
> ...
> > This ignorantly & badly written, and poorly implemented 'separate &
> > not-equal' law incorrectly labels EVs & hybrids as extraordinarily
> > dangerous, as if volatile chemical-fuel is not, plus puts the burden of
> > responder-safety on the driver at an additional cost. This issue is a
> > vehicle-manufacturer responsibility: to each have common locations for
> > high-voltage wiring, like the way fuel-tanks and fuel lines are commonly
> > located on ice %
> >
> > http://www.abc6.com/story/26316308/new-license-plate-may-help-save-lives
> > New license plate may help save lives
> > Aug 19, 2014  By Alana Cerrone
> >
> > A new license plate may help protect first responders from accidentally
> > electrocuting themselves during accident rescues involving electric
> > vehicles.
> >
> > The bill signed into law by Gov. Lincoln Chafee last month requires
> electric
> > vehicle owners to have a special license plate so that first responders,
> > emergency crews, and even two truck drivers know it is electric.
> >
> > Knowing if a vehicle is electric will help crews decide which instrument
> is
> > appropriate to use to rescue people trapped inside.
> >
> > "It is not very well-known that rescue workers can get electrocuted from
> > using jaws of life on an electric vehicle, but when that information
> came to
> > light I wanted us to be proactive about the issue," said Senator Edward
> > O'Neill, who sponsored the law.
> >
> > The law applies to electric and also hybrid vehicle owners.
> > [(c) WLNE-TV 2014]
> > ...
> >
> http://www.valleybreeze.com/2014-08-06/woonsocket-north-smithfield/state-creates-new-plates-electric-vehicles#.U-eA4mOTKHM
> > State creates new plates for electric vehicles
> > 8/6/2014
> > ...
> >
> http://insideevs.com/rhode-island-issues-special-license-plates-electric-vehicles-protect-first-responders/
> > ... create special license plates for electric vehicles? ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/28152-Are-EV-License-Plates-Dangerous-to-Occupants-of-a-Tesla
> > Thread: Are EV License Plates Dangerous to Occupants of a Tesla
> > 2014-03-01
> > ...
> >
> http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText14/SenateText14/S2120A.pdf
> > 2014-S 2120 SUBSTITUTE A ...
> > 'a registration plate for motor vehicles powered in whole or in part by a
> > storage battery.'
> > ...
> >
> http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/pressrelease/_layouts/RIL.PressRelease.ListStructure/Forms/DisplayForm.aspx?List=c8baae31-3c10-431c-8dcd-9dbbe21ce3e9&ID=10091
> > 7/31/2014 Electric vehicle license plates will protect first responders,
> > rescue service workers
> > STATE HOUSE ... The special registration plate will apply to hybrids in
> > addition to electric vehicles. Senators Marc A. Cote (D-Dist. 24,
> > Woonsocket, North Smithfield), Paul W. Fogarty (D-Dist. 23, Glocester,
> > Burrillville, North Smithfield), Nicholas D. Kettle (R-Dist. 21,
> Coventry,
> > Foster, Scituate, West Greenwich) and James E. Doyle II (D-Dist. 8,
> > Pawtucket) cosponsored the legislation.
> > For more information, contact:
> > Brenna McCabe, Publicist
> > State House Room 20
> > Providence, RI 02903
> > (401) 222-2457
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For all EVLN posts use:
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
> >
> >
> http://www.electricautosport.com/2014/08/venturi-realise-600-kmh-electric-speed-record/
> > Venturi to realize 600+ km/h electric speed record
> >
> > http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2007153237
> > Julie Wrigley's sleek, chewing-gum red Tesla-S EV
> >
> >
> http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-norway-436-model-s-sedans-are-being-delivered-monthly-teslas-largest-overseas-market-1658946
> > 436 Tesla-S Delivered Monthly In Norway> it's Largest Overseas Market
> >
> >
> http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/life/2014/08/14/missoula-family-seeks-record-longest-bike-ride/14087677/
> > Missoula family seeks record for longest Electric bicycle ride
> >
> > http://news.investors.com/081214-712980-tesla-adds-station-in-france.htm
> > Tesla adds 50th Euro Supercharger EVSE @Narbonne, France
> > +
> > EVLN: Tesla-S EV Power-trip e-Journeys from Mexico to Alaska
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Vehicle-apartheid-RI-law-punishes-EV-hybrid-drivers-tp4671102.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV & hybrid drivers

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Aug 20, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The state of the art for fuel cell powered vehicles mandates a battery and electric motor system.

On Aug 20, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The state of the art for fuel cell powered vehicles mandates a battery and electric motor system.

I'd say "it depends." Likely this will change over time as both batteries and fuel cells evolve.

Ultimately, my guess is that you'll see mostly hybrids taking advantage of the strengths of both. But this all seems to be application dependent.


> Because, economical fuel cell systems are only practical as trickle chargers or range extenders with the battery concentrating power for accelerating in traffic, or as needed.  

Not the case. I just yesterday saw a site where fuel cells replaced batteries for materials handling.  The economics provide a payback to the company.

> Other Hydrogen systems use the hydrogen as fuel for the ICE.

I'm not aware of any of these, but would certainly be interested in learning about where it is being done.


>
> Dennis Lee Miles
>
> ([hidden email])
>
>  Founder:    EV Tech. Institute Inc.    
>
> Phone # (863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)    
>
> Educating yourself, does not mean you were stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough,  to know, that there is plenty left to learn!
>
>           You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss 
>     NEW You Tube Video link: http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Oddly, the link to the bill referred to includes none of the language being discussed in some of the articles.
>>
>> The language only authorizes the state motor vehicles folks to makes regulations for special plates. It doesn't even requires them to do so.
>>
>> Arguably it could apply to at least some FCEVs, as some are hybrids.
>>
>> For example, yesterday I saw a truck that was a battery dominant FCEV hybrid.
>>
>> But I agree with your concerns about where the burden seems to be placed, at least according to the articles.(the bill language you linked doesn't do that - it's left to their DMV to decide).
>>
>> I wonder why they don't just use stickers as is done for CNG and H2 fueled vehicles.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:21 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > % Simple dealer provided stickers will do (like for HOV lane access). The
>> > law does not apply to fcvs: since when do fcvs not have high-voltages? ...
>> > This ignorantly & badly written, and poorly implemented 'separate &
>> > not-equal' law incorrectly labels EVs & hybrids as extraordinarily
>> > dangerous, as if volatile chemical-fuel is not, plus puts the burden of
>> > responder-safety on the driver at an additional cost. This issue is a
>> > vehicle-manufacturer responsibility: to each have common locations for
>> > high-voltage wiring, like the way fuel-tanks and fuel lines are commonly
>> > located on ice %
>> >
>> > http://www.abc6.com/story/26316308/new-license-plate-may-help-save-lives
>> > New license plate may help save lives
>> > Aug 19, 2014  By Alana Cerrone
>> >
>> > A new license plate may help protect first responders from accidentally
>> > electrocuting themselves during accident rescues involving electric
>> > vehicles.
>> >
>> > The bill signed into law by Gov. Lincoln Chafee last month requires electric
>> > vehicle owners to have a special license plate so that first responders,
>> > emergency crews, and even two truck drivers know it is electric.
>> >
>> > Knowing if a vehicle is electric will help crews decide which instrument is
>> > appropriate to use to rescue people trapped inside.
>> >
>> > “It is not very well-known that rescue workers can get electrocuted from
>> > using jaws of life on an electric vehicle, but when that information came to
>> > light I wanted us to be proactive about the issue,” said Senator Edward
>> > O'Neill, who sponsored the law.
>> >
>> > The law applies to electric and also hybrid vehicle owners.
>> > [© WLNE-TV 2014]
>> > ...
>> > http://www.valleybreeze.com/2014-08-06/woonsocket-north-smithfield/state-creates-new-plates-electric-vehicles#.U-eA4mOTKHM
>> > State creates new plates for electric vehicles
>> > 8/6/2014
>> > ...
>> > http://insideevs.com/rhode-island-issues-special-license-plates-electric-vehicles-protect-first-responders/
>> > ... create special license plates for electric vehicles? ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/28152-Are-EV-License-Plates-Dangerous-to-Occupants-of-a-Tesla
>> > Thread: Are EV License Plates Dangerous to Occupants of a Tesla
>> > 2014-03-01
>> > ...
>> > http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText/BillText14/SenateText14/S2120A.pdf
>> > 2014-S 2120 SUBSTITUTE A ...
>> > 'a registration plate for motor vehicles powered in whole or in part by a
>> > storage battery.'
>> > ...
>> > http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/pressrelease/_layouts/RIL.PressRelease.ListStructure/Forms/DisplayForm.aspx?List=c8baae31-3c10-431c-8dcd-9dbbe21ce3e9&ID=10091
>> > 7/31/2014 Electric vehicle license plates will protect first responders,
>> > rescue service workers
>> > STATE HOUSE ... The special registration plate will apply to hybrids in
>> > addition to electric vehicles. Senators Marc A. Cote (D-Dist. 24,
>> > Woonsocket, North Smithfield), Paul W. Fogarty (D-Dist. 23, Glocester,
>> > Burrillville, North Smithfield), Nicholas D. Kettle (R-Dist. 21, Coventry,
>> > Foster, Scituate, West Greenwich) and James E. Doyle II (D-Dist. 8,
>> > Pawtucket) cosponsored the legislation.
>> > For more information, contact:
>> > Brenna McCabe, Publicist
>> > State House Room 20
>> > Providence, RI 02903
>> > (401) 222-2457
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For all EVLN posts use:
>> > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
>> >
>> > http://www.electricautosport.com/2014/08/venturi-realise-600-kmh-electric-speed-record/
>> > Venturi to realize 600+ km/h electric speed record
>> >
>> > http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2007153237
>> > Julie Wrigley’s sleek, chewing-gum red Tesla-S EV
>> >
>> > http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-norway-436-model-s-sedans-are-being-delivered-monthly-teslas-largest-overseas-market-1658946
>> > 436 Tesla-S Delivered Monthly In Norway> it’s Largest Overseas Market
>> >
>> > http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/life/2014/08/14/missoula-family-seeks-record-longest-bike-ride/14087677/
>> > Missoula family seeks record for longest Electric bicycle ride
>> >
>> > http://news.investors.com/081214-712980-tesla-adds-station-in-france.htm
>> > Tesla adds 50th Euro Supercharger EVSE @Narbonne, France
>> > +
>> > EVLN: Tesla-S EV Power-trip e-Journeys from Mexico to Alaska
>> >
>> >
>> > {brucedp.150m.com}
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Vehicle-apartheid-RI-law-punishes-EV-hybrid-drivers-tp4671102.html
>> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV & hybrid drivers

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Other Hydrogen systems use the hydrogen as fuel for the ICE.
>
> I'm not aware of any of these, but would certainly be interested in learning about where it is being done.

Regular gasoline engines are, for the most part, equally happy burning stoichiometric mixes of gasoline, propane, or hydrogen gas. Replace the fuel delivery system to provide that mixture to the combustion chambers and the rest will run just fine.

There are caveats. Energy density is different, so power production differs. Compressibility of the gas mixtures differ, so you need different timing for optimum results. And hydrogen does really nasty things to metals and gaskets with prolonged exposure.

But the basic mechanics are the same.

Wikipedia has a good article for a starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle

Note that this doesn't apply to diesel engines...but, with those, you can substitute jet fuel, kerosene, or olive oil for diesel with (similarly relatively) minor necessary modifications.

Cheers,

b&
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12