To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
23 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi folks
In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
Best regards
Mark Hanson

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lithium cells (of all chemistries) seem to have the fastest degradation when they are charged to 100% on a regular basis. The general consensus is to keep it in the 20-90% range. This is also what Tesla recommends for the Model S / X.

I’ve also been charging my LiFEPo4 cells in my VW bug to 100% on a regular (near daily) basis. I’ve had a few cells prematurely die; like loosing 30-40% capacity (200Ah thunder skys). The others seem “okay”, but some are dipping lower in voltage under load, and probably have lost some capacity; I’ve been charging them up a bit with a single cell charger, as balancing at the top seems too rough on the cells. I’ve also got about the same mileage: 46,000.

corbin


> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks
> In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
> Best regards
> Mark Hanson
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Cruisin
That's what happens when you use LifP04 cells. You never know when a cell will go south for no reason. I have about 75 customers including my own conversions using NEW Volt cells and have NEVER had a bad cell in over 5 years. Who else can say that. Cannot vouch for those who buy used batteries from a junkie yard. I am now using the NEW Bosch batteries for the BMW i3, i6 and Mercedes, cells by Samsung. Time will tell on those as well. American car manufacturers for the most part don't use the Chinese "junk".
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

tomw
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Are you sure the 2013 cells were the same chemistry? I thought they were the older spinel type, not NMC.
Anyway, worst case for decreasing cell life is high voltage and high temperature as shown by Dahn and other researchers, so most manufacturers recommend not charging to 100% SoC regularly. I have > 50k on my LiFePO4 cells with no noticeable capacity loss, but I usually only add as much charge as I will need for the next couple days, only charging to 100% a few times per month for longer trips. Something not usually mentioned is increase in internal resistance.  I think this is creeping up in my cells, as temperature rise seems a bit more than it used to be, but I have not quantified it. This is a by product of capacity loss due to deposition on the electrode SEI layer as result of electrolyte degradation.  If ir becomes too large, the resultant added cell heating could push them up to higher temperatures in hot summer months accelerating degradation, further increasing ir, resulting in more degradation...hasn't been a problem so far, cells usually are below 98F on hot summer days. LiFePO4 has less problem with electrolyte degradation compared to other higher specific energy chemistries such as NMC due to the lower cell voltage.

I usually don't plug in my laptop either. Only when it gets down to around 40%SoC or so, for the same reason. Killed the battery in my older one within 3 years by leaving it plugged in all the time. My work laptop which I only occasionally plug in still has almost full battery capacity after 5 years.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

Speculation, FWIW:

If the 2014 LEAF really became OK to fully charge to 100%, that may have
been based on performance monitoring of the 2013 batteries not showing
degradation when charged to 100%. And that would imply that it may also
be OK to charge the 2013 to 100% regularly.

Or it may be because the EPA was rating the range based on the 80%
recommendation, splitting the difference between 80% ande 100% range,
and Nissan wanted a better number on the spec sheet.

Or both. Or something else.

What we do:

What we do with ours is charge to 80% most of the time. If needed
though, we don't hesitate to charge to 100%. We time it so that it
finishes the charge right before we drive so it doesn't sit at 100%
longer than necessary, to reduce exposure to any potential high charge
degradation.

It may be a good idea to charge to 100% until the lights go out every
now and then, so it can top balance the pack.

Also keep in mind that the entire pack capacity isn't actually used, so
100% is not the entire 24kWh. IIRC it uses about 21 kWh, which would be
just under 90% when charged to "100%".

Cheers,
  -Jamie


On 10/4/16 8:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

> Hi folks
> In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
> Best regards
> Mark Hanson
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Thanks Corbin
If that's the case I wonder why Nissan dropped the less than 100% requirement from the newer 2014 and up vehicles?   I guess I don't understand why fully charging and equalizing the cells would hurt battery life.  Maybe just a hang on from the lead days :-).
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Corbin Dunn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Lithium cells (of all chemistries) seem to have the fastest degradation when they are charged to 100% on a regular basis. The general consensus is to keep it in the 20-90% range. This is also what Tesla recommends for the Model S / X.
>
> I’ve also been charging my LiFEPo4 cells in my VW bug to 100% on a regular (near daily) basis. I’ve had a few cells prematurely die; like loosing 30-40% capacity (200Ah thunder skys). The others seem “okay”, but some are dipping lower in voltage under load, and probably have lost some capacity; I’ve been charging them up a bit with a single cell charger, as balancing at the top seems too rough on the cells. I’ve also got about the same mileage: 46,000.
>
> corbin
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks
>> In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
>> Best regards
>> Mark Hanson
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yeah, I don’t know why they would change their recommendation; people might have been complaining about the limited range when only charging to 80-90%.

corbin

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 10:12 AM, Mark Hanson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Corbin
> If that's the case I wonder why Nissan dropped the less than 100% requirement from the newer 2014 and up vehicles?   I guess I don't understand why fully charging and equalizing the cells would hurt battery life.  Maybe just a hang on from the lead days :-).
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 4, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Corbin Dunn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Lithium cells (of all chemistries) seem to have the fastest degradation when they are charged to 100% on a regular basis. The general consensus is to keep it in the 20-90% range. This is also what Tesla recommends for the Model S / X.
>>
>> I’ve also been charging my LiFEPo4 cells in my VW bug to 100% on a regular (near daily) basis. I’ve had a few cells prematurely die; like loosing 30-40% capacity (200Ah thunder skys). The others seem “okay”, but some are dipping lower in voltage under load, and probably have lost some capacity; I’ve been charging them up a bit with a single cell charger, as balancing at the top seems too rough on the cells. I’ve also got about the same mileage: 46,000.
>>
>> corbin
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks
>>> In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
>>> Best regards
>>> Mark Hanson
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Simple,
The EPA calculated the Leaf range based on the average of charging to
80% and 100%. Totally crazy, because anybody needing max range would
charge to 100% but that was why Nissan removed the 80% option, even
though customers wanted to keep it. I always charge to 80% to be gentle
on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around 60%
capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
limits for time and mileage.)
Last week I saw a report from Tesloop (shuttle service LA <==> Las Vegas
in Model S) who always (daily) charge to 100% and saw 6% degradation
over 200k miles of service in their first car, so quite a difference!

I have a 2011 and can charge to 80% except for the rare occasion that I
need the full range. I still see capacity loss by reading the measured
Ah battery capacity from the BMS.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Corbin Dunn via
EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 10:15 AM
To: Mark Hanson
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

Yeah, I don't know why they would change their recommendation; people
might have been complaining about the limited range when only charging
to 80-90%.

corbin

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 10:12 AM, Mark Hanson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Corbin
> If that's the case I wonder why Nissan dropped the less than 100%
requirement from the newer 2014 and up vehicles?   I guess I don't
understand why fully charging and equalizing the cells would hurt
battery life.  Maybe just a hang on from the lead days :-).
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 4, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Corbin Dunn
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Lithium cells (of all chemistries) seem to have the fastest
degradation when they are charged to 100% on a regular basis. The
general consensus is to keep it in the 20-90% range. This is also what
Tesla recommends for the Model S / X.
>>
>> I've also been charging my LiFEPo4 cells in my VW bug to 100% on a
regular (near daily) basis. I've had a few cells prematurely die; like
loosing 30-40% capacity (200Ah thunder skys). The others seem "okay",
but some are dipping lower in voltage under load, and probably have lost
some capacity; I've been charging them up a bit with a single cell
charger, as balancing at the top seems too rough on the cells. I've also
got about the same mileage: 46,000.
>>
>> corbin
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks
>>> In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and
only to 80 percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully
charge.  The chemistry is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode
with a lithium electrolyte and a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it
wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 15 mile trips each time?  I do
that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 batteries and still ok
equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf does.
>>> Best regards
>>> Mark Hanson
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around 60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to
see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable
granularity.  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If that's the case I wonder why Nissan dropped the less than 100% requirement from the newer 2014 and up vehicles?   I guess I don't understand why fully charging and equalizing the cells would hurt battery life.  Maybe just a hang on from the lead days :-).

Keep in mind that even though the removed the 80% charge option in the
USA in 2014, I believe that option still remains in European and
Japanese market vehicles. What isn't known, is if the chemistry in all
markets is the same or not.

Also keep in mind that Nissan still recommends against leaving the car
sit fully charged for long periods of time.

All lithium batteries will lose capacity faster when subjected to
higher temperatures or higher states of charge. So if you want to
maximize battery life, you want to keep those two variables lower.

It does seem that at least with the '11-13 LEAFs (it's too soon to
tell with the '14+ LEAFs), temperature makes a bigger difference than
SOC. Temperature related capacity loss should roughly follow Arrhenius
Equation which states that for every 10C rise in temperature, the rate
of chemical reactions (and thus capacity loss) will double.

Dave
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Willie,
Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern,
but I highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different
results, we'll see.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to

see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable
granularity.  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in

that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Recalibration: that sounds like a breach of contract on Nissan's behalf.
To be positive, overall I think Nissan has done a great job. But in this
case, I'd fight back. When you by a leaf, you sign a contract and
recalibrating the way the battery is measured sounds cleanly like a case
of changing the terms of the contract. (For me, it's moot, I'm only one
bar down.) Unless, of course, the contract states explicitly that the
battery must be measured against the current algorithm.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Willie2" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 04-Oct-16 2:06:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

>Willie,
>Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
>Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for
>the
>warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
>enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
>after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
>owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
>longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
>again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does
>not
>disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
>6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
>nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
>right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
>suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
>I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
>about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.
>
>Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern,
>but I highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different
>results, we'll see.
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless
>
>office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
>question
>
>On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>  on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to
>>approx
>>  60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
>>  where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
>>  promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
>60%
>>  capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
>>  limits for time and mileage.)
>When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
>instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected
>to
>
>see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
>came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable
>granularity.  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
>After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things
>in
>
>that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
>explanation could there be?
>
>Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
>of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
>dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

To be, or not to be 100% SOC: that is the question ...

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/To-fully-charge-or-not-to-fully-charge-that-is-the-question-tp4683954.html
>Mark sez: In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80
percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge<

https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/msg18324.html
>Jamie sez: keep in mind that the entire pack capacity isn't actually used, so 100% is not the entire 24kWh. IIRC it uses about 21 kWh, which would be just under 90% when charged to "100%"<
]

Mark's point is discussed on a Leaf forum:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=15526

 and here is a link to a Leaf manual
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=15269

I also found a news item I posted that showed not only pack SOC but thermal concerns:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-An-Early-Autumn-For-A-Texas-Leaf-Pack-tp4657003.html


(Someone please check my math)
21kWh/24kWh= 0.875 or 87.5%
 So while the Leaf's Guessometer sez 100% SOC it really is 87.5% (a higher % SOC than I would want). After reading other's posts, it also seems besides having to contend with an inaccurate Guessometer, there is also some 'Opinionated-Programming' drivers have to contend with that can not be changed or adjusted without voiding the warranty. This keeps drivers locked into what the manufacturer thinks is the right-way to charge or use the pack (driver's suffer their arrogance).

While most know Cellphone, tablet, and AA/AAA batteries are of usually a different design, packaging, and or chemistry than a plugin's pack, some things track/follow, see
http://www.csmonitor.com/Technology/Tech/2014/0103/40-80-rule-New-tip-for-extending-battery-life

 So if the 40-80%SOC (state-of-charge) were to be adhered to by drivers that did not need that much range and wanted to baby/pamper/extend their pack's life, then those Leaf drivers would not want to discharge their pack lower than an actual 40% SOC, which would read as (100/87.5= 1.143-multiplier, *40%SOC= ) 45.7% SOC on the Leaf's Guessometer.

And they would not want to charge their Leaf pack more than an actual 80% SOC, which would read as (100/87.5= 1.143-multiplier, *80%SOC= ) 91.4% SOC on the Leaf's Guessometer.

The Leaf's display or an app would inform the driver when to plug their EV in. But how does the driver get the EV or the EVSE to stop the charge at the ~91% SOC point?

Of all the EVSE news items I have read, I remember a long time ago there was a (home?) EVSE that allowed the driver to set at what % of charge it would stop, or allow a specific amount of time the plugin would charge. These features would also lend themselves to take advantage of utility's time-of-use lower electricity rates (only charge at specific times, and save a bunch of money, etc.).

Well, I just did a search for that and came up empty on that finding a safety certified EVSE that does that. I did find that emotorwerks has an EVSE app, but stopped there as they have yet to get their EVSE safety certified which insurers and city-governments would be satisfied-with.


The only other way I could think of as a work-around, would be to drop into the mode of thinking that our EV predecessors had to use (they had no smart-device choices like we have today). It was the "Ye-Ol' " method of using an inexpensive AC power timer set to a specific amount of time (turn on at a set time for a number of hours, then turn off each day).

With packs now increasing in capacity, the old level-1 electric timer:
https://www.zoro.com/tork-timer-indoor-lamp-and-appliance-120v-sa011/i/G4206745/

 may not suit/fit everyone's charging needs.

(here is a L1 12A 120VAC 1.4kW EVSE example
https://store.clippercreek.com/level1/pcs-15-portable-ev-charging-station
)

So, I also found a 240VAC 20A electric timer
https://www.zoro.com/intermatic-timer-mechanical-240v-20a-plug-in-hb114/i/G6878742/?gclid=CI3Ps4yRws8CFYwmhgodjdALPA&gclsrc=aw.ds

 which should allow use of up to a 4.8kW L2 EVSE.

 (here is a L2 20A 240VAC 4.8kW EVSE example
https://store.clippercreek.com/lcs-25-lcs-25p-20-amp-ev-charging-station?gclid=COHzs-qrws8CFU48gQodXtMBOg

  and here is a L2 16A 240VAC 3.8kW EVSE example
https://store.clippercreek.com/lcs-20-lcs-20p-16-amp-level-2-ev-charging-station?gclid=CJnByv-pws8CFciDfgodWpgILA
)


BTW, any EV-ignorant/EV-newbies reading this, should not get into a panic that Leaf EVs have any severe charging issues. It is just that EV drivers would like the best (or most) for the Electric-love-of-their-life.

Said noobs are likely already familiar with ice, so perhaps an analogy would be to suggest saving ice-weight by not driving around with a full fuel tank, thus the ice would get better mpg, put less work on the engine (making last longer), etc.

By knowing what a drivers needs are, their vehicle could be optimized to better suit those needs. That is what these Leaf EV pack SOC discussions are seeking.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_be,_or_not_to_be
William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1) To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I'm not sure what true SOC the Leaf charges to and calls 100% but on my
2016 Kia Soul EV+ 100% on the display corresponds to 95% from the BMS. The
two displays agree at 25% SOC and below that the display SOC is lower than
actual. If the relationship is linear then 0% SOC on the display is about
1.7% SOC on the BMS. So, when I charge to full it really isn't full. I
still only charge to 80% which is about 76.3% in reality unless I need the
extra range.

It is entirely possible that Nissan also does something similar and maybe
increased the difference between actual SOC and displayed SOC.

FWIW, after 14 months and over 22,500 miles, mostly the I-5 corridor of
Oregon and Washington, the BMS reports the greatest cell degradation at 10%.

Does the Leaf BMS report a similar number?

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Recalibration: that sounds like a breach of contract on Nissan's behalf.
> To be positive, overall I think Nissan has done a great job. But in this
> case, I'd fight back. When you by a leaf, you sign a contract and
> recalibrating the way the battery is measured sounds cleanly like a case of
> changing the terms of the contract. (For me, it's moot, I'm only one bar
> down.) Unless, of course, the contract states explicitly that the battery
> must be measured against the current algorithm.
>
> Peri
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Willie2" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <
> [hidden email]>
> Sent: 04-Oct-16 2:06:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
> question
>
> Willie,
>> Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
>> Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
>> warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
>> enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
>> after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
>> owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
>> longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
>> again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
>> disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
>> 6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
>> nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
>> right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
>> suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
>> I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
>> about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.
>>
>> Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern,
>> but I highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different
>> results, we'll see.
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless
>>
>> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>> http://www.proxim.com
>>
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
>> question
>>
>> On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
>>>  60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
>>>  where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
>>>  promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
>>>
>> 60%
>>
>>>  capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
>>>  limits for time and mileage.)
>>>
>> When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
>> instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to
>>
>> see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
>> came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable
>> granularity.  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
>> After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
>>
>> that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
>> explanation could there be?
>>
>> Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
>> of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
>> dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161004/8973cfcb/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To be, or not to be 100% SOC: that is the question ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by brucedp5
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 5:09 PM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> (Someone please check my math)
> 21kWh/24kWh= 0.875 or 87.5%
>  So while the Leaf's Guessometer sez 100% SOC it really is 87.5%
>
>
Bruce, the only thing I can think of that would change your results is if
the display 0% SOC and the true battery 0% SOC were not lined up. In my
2016 Kia Soul EV+ the two line up at 25% SOC and the battery is at 95% SOC
when the display shows 100% SOC.

Interestingly on the Kia Soul EV, it stops quick charging at somewhere
between 83% and 84%. It wasn't until I could read the CAN bus messages that
I found that this translates to 80% SOC according to the BMS.

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161004/70034d8c/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that is thequestion

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year)
Note that Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi
on their cars each year, so the 8 year warranty on battery
and drivetrain would give them ~3 million miles under warranty...
Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including
an early front motor replacement under warranty.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
thequestion

Willie,
Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
we'll see.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx

> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to

see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in

that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Let's try that *with* the link:
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-mil
es/


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
isthequestion

Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year) Note that
Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi on their cars each year,
so the 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain would give them ~3
million miles under warranty...
Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including an early
front motor replacement under warranty.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
thequestion

Willie,
Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
we'll see.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx

> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to

see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in

that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I'm not sure why this keeps coming back to roost. Some people on this list
may recall the same conversation back in the spring of 2011, where I
contacted Nissan about the 80% issue. I received a phone call from one of
the engineers in Tennessee. He understood my confusion and expressed some
frustration at their end, explaining that they designed the on board
battery management system to protect the batteries. Doing so by never
letting the batteries charge above 80% (which shows as the full 100% on the
instrumentation), and never discharging below 20% (which shows as 0%).
Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
typically brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could
experience a thermal even ( Thermal runaway & fire).
The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack to 10 miles or
so in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully recharge about
once a month to "refresh" the battery. I followed his advice, and after 39
months and 56,000 miles, (the end of the lease), the pack was still above
98% capacity, which seemed to surprise the service department at the
dealership where we turned it in at.
I suspect that some of the degradation that we experienced may have been
due to some of the fast chargers that we used toward the end of the lease,
but have no way to be sure of that.

Tom True

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Let's try that *with* the link:
> https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-mil
> es/
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
> Water via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:28 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
> isthequestion
>
> Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year) Note that
> Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi on their cars each year,
> so the 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain would give them ~3
> million miles under warranty...
> Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including an early
> front motor replacement under warranty.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
> Water via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
> To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
> thequestion
>
> Willie,
> Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
> Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
> warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
> enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
> after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
> owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
> longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
> again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
> disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
> 6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
> nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
> right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
> suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
> I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
> about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.
>
> Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
> highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
> we'll see.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
> question
>
> On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> > on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
>
> > 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> > where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> > promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
> 60%
> > capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> > limits for time and mileage.)
> When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
> instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to
>
> see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
> came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
> Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
> After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
>
> that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
> explanation could there be?
>
> Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
> of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
> dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161005/594baeca/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Something doesn't make sense, here. No doubt you prolonged the battery
capacity by not charging and discharging fully, per the engineer's
advice.

But according to what others have said, if you consistently charge to
80% and discharge to 20%, you should see very little or no capacity
degradation with LiFePos. Yet the vast majority of Leaf owners do see
significant degradation and never see thermal runaway.

So, either LiFePos need even a smaller margin of operation, say 35% to
65%, or what the engineer told you isn't completely true. Or there's
some other significant factor in the situation.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Thos True via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 05-Oct-16 7:00:20 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
isthequestion

>I'm not sure why this keeps coming back to roost. Some people on this
>list
>may recall the same conversation back in the spring of 2011, where I
>contacted Nissan about the 80% issue. I received a phone call from one
>of
>the engineers in Tennessee. He understood my confusion and expressed
>some
>frustration at their end, explaining that they designed the on board
>battery management system to protect the batteries. Doing so by never
>letting the batteries charge above 80% (which shows as the full 100% on
>the
>instrumentation), and never discharging below 20% (which shows as 0%).
>Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
>typically brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could
>experience a thermal even ( Thermal runaway & fire).
>The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack to 10 miles
>or
>so in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully recharge
>about
>once a month to "refresh" the battery. I followed his advice, and after
>39
>months and 56,000 miles, (the end of the lease), the pack was still
>above
>98% capacity, which seemed to surprise the service department at the
>dealership where we turned it in at.
>I suspect that some of the degradation that we experienced may have
>been
>due to some of the fast chargers that we used toward the end of the
>lease,
>but have no way to be sure of that.
>
>Tom True
>
>On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
><[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>  Let's try that *with* the link:
>>  
>>https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-mil
>>  es/
>>
>>
>>  Cor van de Water
>>  Chief Scientist
>>  Proxim Wireless
>>
>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>and
>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>>received
>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>  this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>>  Water via EV
>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:28 PM
>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
>>  isthequestion
>>
>>  Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year) Note that
>>  Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi on their cars each
>>year,
>>  so the 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain would give them ~3
>>  million miles under warranty...
>>  Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including an
>>early
>>  front motor replacement under warranty.
>>
>>  Cor van de Water
>>  Chief Scientist
>>  Proxim Wireless
>>
>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>and
>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>>received
>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>  this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>>  Water via EV
>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
>>  To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
>>  thequestion
>>
>>  Willie,
>>  Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
>>  Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for
>>the
>>  warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
>>  enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be
>>honored
>>  after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
>>  owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser
>>no
>>  longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they
>>would
>>  again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does
>>not
>>  disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
>>  6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
>>  nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
>>  right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity
>>degradation
>>  suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
>>  I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
>>  about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.
>>
>>  Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but
>>I
>>  highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
>>  we'll see.
>>
>>  Cor van de Water
>>  Chief Scientist
>>  Proxim Wireless
>>
>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>>and
>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>>received
>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>  this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via
>>EV
>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
>>the
>>  question
>>
>>  On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>  > on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to
>>approx
>>
>>  > 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
>>  > where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
>>  > promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar
>>around
>>  60%
>>  > capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the
>>warranty
>>  > limits for time and mileage.)
>>  When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
>>  instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected
>>to
>>
>>  see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
>>  came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable
>>granularity.
>>  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
>>  After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things
>>in
>>
>>  that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
>>  explanation could there be?
>>
>>  Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and
>>speak
>>  of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
>>  dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV
>>drag
>>  racing at NEDRA
>>  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV
>>drag
>>  racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV
>>drag
>>  racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>  Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>  group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass
>is
>merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL:
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161005/594baeca/attachment.htm>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peri,

My thinking on the degradation has to do with the fact that most people do
not actually discharge the cells below 50 or 60 percent.
I learned from some of the people involved with the lithium cells that it
is best to think of them as a "sponge". That is, if you leave a sponge
soaking in a bucket, it rots very quickly (always plugged in or charged),
and if you leave it on a shelf all the time, it becomes very hard, and
takes a very long time to re-hydrate (prolonged low charge). However is you
wring it out on a regular basis, lasts for a very long time (regular full
charges and discharges). This is why it was recommended to fully discharge
ie. wring out (according to the instrumentation) once per month.
I know that it worked well for me.

-Tom

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 7:10 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Something doesn't make sense, here. No doubt you prolonged the battery
> capacity by not charging and discharging fully, per the engineer's advice.
>
> But according to what others have said, if you consistently charge to 80%
> and discharge to 20%, you should see very little or no capacity degradation
> with LiFePos. Yet the vast majority of Leaf owners do see significant
> degradation and never see thermal runaway.
>
> So, either LiFePos need even a smaller margin of operation, say 35% to
> 65%, or what the engineer told you isn't completely true. Or there's some
> other significant factor in the situation.
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Thos True via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 05-Oct-16 7:00:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
> isthequestion
>
> I'm not sure why this keeps coming back to roost. Some people on this list
>> may recall the same conversation back in the spring of 2011, where I
>> contacted Nissan about the 80% issue. I received a phone call from one of
>> the engineers in Tennessee. He understood my confusion and expressed some
>> frustration at their end, explaining that they designed the on board
>> battery management system to protect the batteries. Doing so by never
>> letting the batteries charge above 80% (which shows as the full 100% on
>> the
>> instrumentation), and never discharging below 20% (which shows as 0%).
>> Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
>> typically brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could
>> experience a thermal even ( Thermal runaway & fire).
>> The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack to 10 miles or
>> so in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully recharge about
>> once a month to "refresh" the battery. I followed his advice, and after 39
>> months and 56,000 miles, (the end of the lease), the pack was still above
>> 98% capacity, which seemed to surprise the service department at the
>> dealership where we turned it in at.
>> I suspect that some of the degradation that we experienced may have been
>> due to some of the fast chargers that we used toward the end of the lease,
>> but have no way to be sure of that.
>>
>> Tom True
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Let's try that *with* the link:
>>>  https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-
>>> s-at-200k-mil
>>>  es/
>>>
>>>
>>>  Cor van de Water
>>>  Chief Scientist
>>>  Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>>
>>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>>
>>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>>  this message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>>>  Water via EV
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:28 PM
>>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
>>>  isthequestion
>>>
>>>  Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year) Note that
>>>  Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi on their cars each year,
>>>  so the 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain would give them ~3
>>>  million miles under warranty...
>>>  Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including an early
>>>  front motor replacement under warranty.
>>>
>>>  Cor van de Water
>>>  Chief Scientist
>>>  Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>>
>>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>>
>>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>>  this message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
>>>  Water via EV
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
>>>  To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
>>>  thequestion
>>>
>>>  Willie,
>>>  Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
>>>  Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
>>>  warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
>>>  enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
>>>  after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
>>>  owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
>>>  longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
>>>  again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
>>>  disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
>>>  6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
>>>  nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
>>>  right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
>>>  suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
>>>  I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
>>>  about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.
>>>
>>>  Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
>>>  highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
>>>  we'll see.
>>>
>>>  Cor van de Water
>>>  Chief Scientist
>>>  Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>>  office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>>
>>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>>
>>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>>  proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>>>  this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>>>  unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>>  this message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
>>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
>>>  question
>>>
>>>  On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>>  > on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
>>>
>>>  > 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
>>>  > where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
>>>  > promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
>>>  60%
>>>  > capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
>>>  > limits for time and mileage.)
>>>  When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
>>>  instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to
>>>
>>>  see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
>>>  came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
>>>  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
>>>  After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
>>>
>>>  that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
>>>  explanation could there be?
>>>
>>>  Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
>>>  of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
>>>  dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>>>  racing at NEDRA
>>>  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>>>  racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>>>  racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>>>  Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>>  group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
>> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/
>> 20161005/594baeca/attachment.htm>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161005/7e7aa9d7/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

12