Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

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Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

Cor van de Water
Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of
asking a short question and then subsequently posting
the info after each of you ask what the setup of the
vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as complete
as I could be in one post - with the main question at
the end of how to improve my efficiency:

OK, I am not a mechanic so I like a little advice.
I have been driving my "new" 1989 Ford Ranger conversion
for a few weeks, put almost 300 miles on it but I have
been struggling with the efficiency from day 1.
http://evalbum.com/4259
You may have seen my message saying that I took off the
power steering belt, because it was consuming too much
power and indeed the consumption reduced significantly
but the truck is still using almost twice the power
that I am used to from my previous S10 EV, which could
hold 55 on a level road at about 15kW of power as
reported by its WaveDriver AC controller. That consumption
gave that truck a 65 mile range on the freeway with a
110Ah 312V lead-acid pack.
When I try to maintain 55 in this truck the current
draw is almost constantly pegged close to 300A at 110V
so double what I expect. If I let up on the accelerator
and stay around 200V at 110-120V the speed will be
around 45 MPH. So, I need *more* power to go *slower* than
the S10, which tells me something is not right. The S10
was heavier (5000lbs with driver) compared to this Ranger
that tips the scales at 4400 with driver.

I trust the readings of Ford's meters, not only because
they are reliable analog needle-style meters and connected
to the battery pack (expanded scale voltmeter) and across
the original shunt (Amp meter) but also because I have
pushed the truck to do just over 25 miles yesterday and
even though I was driving very conservatively the whole
time (at the end there was road work on the freeway, so
I could drop my speed from just over 50 to around 45 on
the last stretch) the voltmeter dropped quickly towards
the end, a few minutes after parking, the 120V pack had
recovered back to 118V, so I know it was close to empty.
Presuming that I can get about half the Ah out of this
pack of US-145 Golf cart batteries at this high current
draws, that means at least 120Ah at an average 110V and
presuming an average speed on the freeway of 50MPH the
power works out to 26kW to maintain that speed over the
time it takes to drive 25 miles and consume those Ah.
This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed
by the fact that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times
and after driving less than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh
to recharge. Part of that is losses in the charger and
also part is losses in the battery charging at 130V
while driving it is done around 110V but it still comes
down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was
doing with my S10 that consumed about half that
(270Wh/mi when doing constant 55 MPH)

Tonight on the commute home the drivetrain started making
a noise that I had never heard before. Luckily it mostly
was present with full throttle, so I backed off a little
and went home driving slower than usual (I don't really
like doing 45 on the freeway, even where the limit is 55)
and when I got home I touched the different drivetrain
parts to see if I could find a culprit. The motor was warm,
much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive
with constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear
so the motor does a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means
that it is certainly not being lugged. There is a blower
pushing air through the motor and at the inlet side it
stays barely over handwarm, but I now felt the exhaust side
near the brush grilles and I could not keep my hand more
than few seconds on it.

The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I
could not touch it for more than a second. The transmission
has a small cooler in the front, immediately behind the open
grille, so I am wondering what causes the transmission to
get so hot - possibly the oil is low, as I have noticed a
small leak from around the fill/check tube - probably the
O-ring is busted and this was a known problem apparently
because I see some liquid gasket streaks around the point
where the pipe enters the pan, but the pipe moves when the
oil level is checked so that may have restarted the leak.

The diff was warm but I could comfortably keep my hand on it
so that is not the problem - it may need synthetic oil at
some point if it has not already, but that is not the issue
at this point.
I know that wheels are pretty well aligned and no brake is
dragging because even a small incline will cause the truck
to roll away.

I do not know if the brushes are properly advanced on this
motor, but knowing that it was converted by a company for
the city of Santa Rosa (converted by Pro EV in Penn Valley)
probably back in April 1996 judging from the sticker on the
controller (EV100 AKA EVT15, an IGBT forklift controller)
gives me at least the idea that the motor was installed and
setup properly. The previous owner also commented that the
brushes looked like new, but I have reason to believe that
the truck has done less than 1000 miles as EV and 69k of
the 70k on the ODO were done before conversion. Reason that
I think this is because the controller reports now that it
has done 30 hours and when I got it almost 300 miles ago,
it was reporting 22 run hours. So I probably need to keep
an eye on the brushes and commutator to watch for signs
of overheating or damage from excessive sparking, in case
the brush advance was not setup correctly.

But the main question I have now is: what is the matter
with that automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that
I cannot touch it after 15 mins of easy driving?
I am guessing that that is where most of my unexplainable
losses go.
I can see that there are slightly larger losses in the
tires (which are slightly wider than I had on my S10) and
possibly in the diff, depending if the oil is already
synthetic or not and of course the automatic transmission
will always have slightly higher losses than a manual
transmission.

BTW: I checked the vacuum hose that runs from the brake
system where the line from the vacuum pump and storage
vessel comes into a T and runs from there onto the
modulator for this transmission, so it has vacuum at
all times (the power from this motor is never so high as
to require increased oil pressue in the transmission.
This transmission (A4LD) has torque converter lockup
though I am not familiar enough with tranmissions to know
if it will lock up above a certain RPM in every gear or
only in some gears.

I do know that first gear is very noisy, it sounds as if
it is straight cut when I accelerate to some speed, say
15 MPH which is just over 2000 RPM and let go of the
accelerator then I get a noticeable "engine drag" effect
combined with noiceable sprocket noise (a typical whine
from gear teeth) and both effects disappear when switching
to a higher gear. I do all my freeway driving in 2nd gear
and surface streets in 1st gear, so there is probably
something wrong with 2nd gear or with the entire transmission
if it consumes so much energy in an easy freeway drive as my
commute is less than 2 miles surface streets with usually
only 2 red lights before I reach the freeway, then over
7 miles straight road, followed by half a mile surface
streets with only 2 lights immediately after each other.

At this point I am ready to consider going direct drive,
because the diff has 4.10 ratio, so in direct drive setup
the motor will be doing 3620 RPM at 65 MPH and I remove
what looks like the biggest energy drain on this truck.
How can a 28 inch long hunk of metal warm up so much in
such a mild drive while it is even cooled by a small
radiator?
The consequence of going direct drive will be that the
low end torque will be less than when it can run in 1st
gear (2.47), but when almost half the energy is lost in the
transmission then removing it will more than make up for
any loss of torque in 2nd gear (1.47 ratio).
If the transmission is removed, I will either need to extend
the drive shaft 28 inch to meet with the motor or move
the motor by 28 inch into the tunnel to meet with the
existing drive shaft.
Working on the drive shaft should not be the problem,
I have friends who can form metal and weld
(and I understand the drive shaft needs to be balanced)

Suggestions or hints what to check if I do like to keep
the transmission for now? Or should I bite the bullet
and simply unbolt the transmission from the motor, then
mate the motor and driveshaft?
The transmission is definitely not running dry, even though
it is making strange noises - I now checked (cold and stopped
and I know that it should be checked hot and running) and
the level is 2 inch above "fill" level.
Or should I just go to pick-n-pull and get another transmission
bolt it in and call it a day?

I *really* would like to bring my consumption down to either
reduce charging time (for what I drive in my daily commute)
or to extend my range (now max 25 miles apparently so I wonder
what will happen in winter)

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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|
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

Morgan LaMoore
I wonder if the torque converter isn't locking up and is burning up lots of
power. 4000 RPMs in second gear would be heavy acceleration with an ICE and
wouldn't be a nice, efficient, low-reduction or locked operating mode. If
the losses are based on RPMs more than torque, an extra 10-15kW of losses
while accelerating hard wouldn't be a big deal like it is while cruising.

Also, is the transmission oil pump pumping at a higher rate/pressure at
higher RPMs? Is some of the energy being transferred to the transmission
lubricant then being dissipated as heat?

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of
> asking a short question and then subsequently posting
> the info after each of you ask what the setup of the
> vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as complete
> as I could be in one post - with the main question at
> the end of how to improve my efficiency:
>   ...
>
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Hi Cor,

Personally I'd replace the auto transmission with a clutched manual one  Then you get the best of both worlds.  It would be nice if they were a straight swap but I'm betting it won't be that easy.  If it is, though, it might be an easier route than re-jigging your motor mounts or altering the prop shaft length. MW


On 23 Jun 2012, at 08:35, Cor van de Water wrote:

> Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of
> asking a short question and then subsequently posting
> the info after each of you ask what the setup of the
> vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as complete
> as I could be in one post - with the main question at
> the end of how to improve my efficiency:
>
> OK, I am not a mechanic so I like a little advice.
> I have been driving my "new" 1989 Ford Ranger conversion
> for a few weeks, put almost 300 miles on it but I have
> been struggling with the efficiency from day 1.
> http://evalbum.com/4259
> You may have seen my message saying that I took off the
> power steering belt, because it was consuming too much
> power and indeed the consumption reduced significantly
> but the truck is still using almost twice the power
> that I am used to from my previous S10 EV, which could
> hold 55 on a level road at about 15kW of power as
> reported by its WaveDriver AC controller. That consumption
> gave that truck a 65 mile range on the freeway with a
> 110Ah 312V lead-acid pack.
> When I try to maintain 55 in this truck the current
> draw is almost constantly pegged close to 300A at 110V
> so double what I expect. If I let up on the accelerator
> and stay around 200V at 110-120V the speed will be
> around 45 MPH. So, I need *more* power to go *slower* than
> the S10, which tells me something is not right. The S10
> was heavier (5000lbs with driver) compared to this Ranger
> that tips the scales at 4400 with driver.
>
> I trust the readings of Ford's meters, not only because
> they are reliable analog needle-style meters and connected
> to the battery pack (expanded scale voltmeter) and across
> the original shunt (Amp meter) but also because I have
> pushed the truck to do just over 25 miles yesterday and
> even though I was driving very conservatively the whole
> time (at the end there was road work on the freeway, so
> I could drop my speed from just over 50 to around 45 on
> the last stretch) the voltmeter dropped quickly towards
> the end, a few minutes after parking, the 120V pack had
> recovered back to 118V, so I know it was close to empty.
> Presuming that I can get about half the Ah out of this
> pack of US-145 Golf cart batteries at this high current
> draws, that means at least 120Ah at an average 110V and
> presuming an average speed on the freeway of 50MPH the
> power works out to 26kW to maintain that speed over the
> time it takes to drive 25 miles and consume those Ah.
> This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed
> by the fact that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times
> and after driving less than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh
> to recharge. Part of that is losses in the charger and
> also part is losses in the battery charging at 130V
> while driving it is done around 110V but it still comes
> down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was
> doing with my S10 that consumed about half that
> (270Wh/mi when doing constant 55 MPH)
>
> Tonight on the commute home the drivetrain started making
> a noise that I had never heard before. Luckily it mostly
> was present with full throttle, so I backed off a little
> and went home driving slower than usual (I don't really
> like doing 45 on the freeway, even where the limit is 55)
> and when I got home I touched the different drivetrain
> parts to see if I could find a culprit. The motor was warm,
> much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive
> with constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear
> so the motor does a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means
> that it is certainly not being lugged. There is a blower
> pushing air through the motor and at the inlet side it
> stays barely over handwarm, but I now felt the exhaust side
> near the brush grilles and I could not keep my hand more
> than few seconds on it.
>
> The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I
> could not touch it for more than a second. The transmission
> has a small cooler in the front, immediately behind the open
> grille, so I am wondering what causes the transmission to
> get so hot - possibly the oil is low, as I have noticed a
> small leak from around the fill/check tube - probably the
> O-ring is busted and this was a known problem apparently
> because I see some liquid gasket streaks around the point
> where the pipe enters the pan, but the pipe moves when the
> oil level is checked so that may have restarted the leak.
>
> The diff was warm but I could comfortably keep my hand on it
> so that is not the problem - it may need synthetic oil at
> some point if it has not already, but that is not the issue
> at this point.
> I know that wheels are pretty well aligned and no brake is
> dragging because even a small incline will cause the truck
> to roll away.
>
> I do not know if the brushes are properly advanced on this
> motor, but knowing that it was converted by a company for
> the city of Santa Rosa (converted by Pro EV in Penn Valley)
> probably back in April 1996 judging from the sticker on the
> controller (EV100 AKA EVT15, an IGBT forklift controller)
> gives me at least the idea that the motor was installed and
> setup properly. The previous owner also commented that the
> brushes looked like new, but I have reason to believe that
> the truck has done less than 1000 miles as EV and 69k of
> the 70k on the ODO were done before conversion. Reason that
> I think this is because the controller reports now that it
> has done 30 hours and when I got it almost 300 miles ago,
> it was reporting 22 run hours. So I probably need to keep
> an eye on the brushes and commutator to watch for signs
> of overheating or damage from excessive sparking, in case
> the brush advance was not setup correctly.
>
> But the main question I have now is: what is the matter
> with that automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that
> I cannot touch it after 15 mins of easy driving?
> I am guessing that that is where most of my unexplainable
> losses go.
> I can see that there are slightly larger losses in the
> tires (which are slightly wider than I had on my S10) and
> possibly in the diff, depending if the oil is already
> synthetic or not and of course the automatic transmission
> will always have slightly higher losses than a manual
> transmission.
>
> BTW: I checked the vacuum hose that runs from the brake
> system where the line from the vacuum pump and storage
> vessel comes into a T and runs from there onto the
> modulator for this transmission, so it has vacuum at
> all times (the power from this motor is never so high as
> to require increased oil pressue in the transmission.
> This transmission (A4LD) has torque converter lockup
> though I am not familiar enough with tranmissions to know
> if it will lock up above a certain RPM in every gear or
> only in some gears.
>
> I do know that first gear is very noisy, it sounds as if
> it is straight cut when I accelerate to some speed, say
> 15 MPH which is just over 2000 RPM and let go of the
> accelerator then I get a noticeable "engine drag" effect
> combined with noiceable sprocket noise (a typical whine
> from gear teeth) and both effects disappear when switching
> to a higher gear. I do all my freeway driving in 2nd gear
> and surface streets in 1st gear, so there is probably
> something wrong with 2nd gear or with the entire transmission
> if it consumes so much energy in an easy freeway drive as my
> commute is less than 2 miles surface streets with usually
> only 2 red lights before I reach the freeway, then over
> 7 miles straight road, followed by half a mile surface
> streets with only 2 lights immediately after each other.
>
> At this point I am ready to consider going direct drive,
> because the diff has 4.10 ratio, so in direct drive setup
> the motor will be doing 3620 RPM at 65 MPH and I remove
> what looks like the biggest energy drain on this truck.
> How can a 28 inch long hunk of metal warm up so much in
> such a mild drive while it is even cooled by a small
> radiator?
> The consequence of going direct drive will be that the
> low end torque will be less than when it can run in 1st
> gear (2.47), but when almost half the energy is lost in the
> transmission then removing it will more than make up for
> any loss of torque in 2nd gear (1.47 ratio).
> If the transmission is removed, I will either need to extend
> the drive shaft 28 inch to meet with the motor or move
> the motor by 28 inch into the tunnel to meet with the
> existing drive shaft.
> Working on the drive shaft should not be the problem,
> I have friends who can form metal and weld
> (and I understand the drive shaft needs to be balanced)
>
> Suggestions or hints what to check if I do like to keep
> the transmission for now? Or should I bite the bullet
> and simply unbolt the transmission from the motor, then
> mate the motor and driveshaft?
> The transmission is definitely not running dry, even though
> it is making strange noises - I now checked (cold and stopped
> and I know that it should be checked hot and running) and
> the level is 2 inch above "fill" level.
> Or should I just go to pick-n-pull and get another transmission
> bolt it in and call it a day?
>
> I *really* would like to bring my consumption down to either
> reduce charging time (for what I drive in my daily commute)
> or to extend my range (now max 25 miles apparently so I wonder
> what will happen in winter)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

David Chapman-9
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Before I would put an another automatic trans in I would change the truck to a manual gearbox, don't even need to use the clutch.



________________________________
 From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:35 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...
 
Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of
asking a short question and then subsequently posting
the info after each of you ask what the setup of the
vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as complete
as I could be in one post - with the main question at
the end of how to improve my efficiency:

OK, I am not a mechanic so I like a little advice.
I have been driving my "new" 1989 Ford Ranger conversion
for a few weeks, put almost 300 miles on it but I have
been struggling with the efficiency from day 1.
http://evalbum.com/4259
You may have seen my message saying that I took off the
power steering belt, because it was consuming too much
power and indeed the consumption reduced significantly
but the truck is still using almost twice the power
that I am used to from my previous S10 EV, which could
hold 55 on a level road at about 15kW of power as
reported by its WaveDriver AC controller. That consumption
gave that truck a 65 mile range on the freeway with a
110Ah 312V lead-acid pack.
When I try to maintain 55 in this truck the current
draw is almost constantly pegged close to 300A at 110V
so double what I expect. If I let up on the accelerator
and stay around 200V at 110-120V the speed will be
around 45 MPH. So, I need *more* power to go *slower* than
the S10, which tells me something is not right. The S10
was heavier (5000lbs with driver) compared to this Ranger
that tips the scales at 4400 with driver.

I trust the readings of Ford's meters, not only because
they are reliable analog needle-style meters and connected
to the battery pack (expanded scale voltmeter) and across
the original shunt (Amp meter) but also because I have
pushed the truck to do just over 25 miles yesterday and
even though I was driving very conservatively the whole
time (at the end there was road work on the freeway, so
I could drop my speed from just over 50 to around 45 on
the last stretch) the voltmeter dropped quickly towards
the end, a few minutes after parking, the 120V pack had
recovered back to 118V, so I know it was close to empty.
Presuming that I can get about half the Ah out of this
pack of US-145 Golf cart batteries at this high current
draws, that means at least 120Ah at an average 110V and
presuming an average speed on the freeway of 50MPH the
power works out to 26kW to maintain that speed over the
time it takes to drive 25 miles and consume those Ah.
This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed
by the fact that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times
and after driving less than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh
to recharge. Part of that is losses in the charger and
also part is losses in the battery charging at 130V
while driving it is done around 110V but it still comes
down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was
doing with my S10 that consumed about half that
(270Wh/mi when doing constant 55 MPH)

Tonight on the commute home the drivetrain started making
a noise that I had never heard before. Luckily it mostly
was present with full throttle, so I backed off a little
and went home driving slower than usual (I don't really
like doing 45 on the freeway, even where the limit is 55)
and when I got home I touched the different drivetrain
parts to see if I could find a culprit. The motor was warm,
much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive
with constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear
so the motor does a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means
that it is certainly not being lugged. There is a blower
pushing air through the motor and at the inlet side it
stays barely over handwarm, but I now felt the exhaust side
near the brush grilles and I could not keep my hand more
than few seconds on it.

The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I
could not touch it for more than a second. The transmission
has a small cooler in the front, immediately behind the open
grille, so I am wondering what causes the transmission to
get so hot - possibly the oil is low, as I have noticed a
small leak from around the fill/check tube - probably the
O-ring is busted and this was a known problem apparently
because I see some liquid gasket streaks around the point
where the pipe enters the pan, but the pipe moves when the
oil level is checked so that may have restarted the leak.

The diff was warm but I could comfortably keep my hand on it
so that is not the problem - it may need synthetic oil at
some point if it has not already, but that is not the issue
at this point.
I know that wheels are pretty well aligned and no brake is
dragging because even a small incline will cause the truck
to roll away.

I do not know if the brushes are properly advanced on this
motor, but knowing that it was converted by a company for
the city of Santa Rosa (converted by Pro EV in Penn Valley)
probably back in April 1996 judging from the sticker on the
controller (EV100 AKA EVT15, an IGBT forklift controller)
gives me at least the idea that the motor was installed and
setup properly. The previous owner also commented that the
brushes looked like new, but I have reason to believe that
the truck has done less than 1000 miles as EV and 69k of
the 70k on the ODO were done before conversion. Reason that
I think this is because the controller reports now that it
has done 30 hours and when I got it almost 300 miles ago,
it was reporting 22 run hours. So I probably need to keep
an eye on the brushes and commutator to watch for signs
of overheating or damage from excessive sparking, in case
the brush advance was not setup correctly.

But the main question I have now is: what is the matter
with that automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that
I cannot touch it after 15 mins of easy driving?
I am guessing that that is where most of my unexplainable
losses go.
I can see that there are slightly larger losses in the
tires (which are slightly wider than I had on my S10) and
possibly in the diff, depending if the oil is already
synthetic or not and of course the automatic transmission
will always have slightly higher losses than a manual
transmission.

BTW: I checked the vacuum hose that runs from the brake
system where the line from the vacuum pump and storage
vessel comes into a T and runs from there onto the
modulator for this transmission, so it has vacuum at
all times (the power from this motor is never so high as
to require increased oil pressue in the transmission.
This transmission (A4LD) has torque converter lockup
though I am not familiar enough with tranmissions to know
if it will lock up above a certain RPM in every gear or
only in some gears.

I do know that first gear is very noisy, it sounds as if
it is straight cut when I accelerate to some speed, say
15 MPH which is just over 2000 RPM and let go of the
accelerator then I get a noticeable "engine drag" effect
combined with noiceable sprocket noise (a typical whine
from gear teeth) and both effects disappear when switching
to a higher gear. I do all my freeway driving in 2nd gear
and surface streets in 1st gear, so there is probably
something wrong with 2nd gear or with the entire transmission
if it consumes so much energy in an easy freeway drive as my
commute is less than 2 miles surface streets with usually
only 2 red lights before I reach the freeway, then over
7 miles straight road, followed by half a mile surface
streets with only 2 lights immediately after each other.

At this point I am ready to consider going direct drive,
because the diff has 4.10 ratio, so in direct drive setup
the motor will be doing 3620 RPM at 65 MPH and I remove
what looks like the biggest energy drain on this truck.
How can a 28 inch long hunk of metal warm up so much in
such a mild drive while it is even cooled by a small
radiator?
The consequence of going direct drive will be that the
low end torque will be less than when it can run in 1st
gear (2.47), but when almost half the energy is lost in the
transmission then removing it will more than make up for
any loss of torque in 2nd gear (1.47 ratio).
If the transmission is removed, I will either need to extend
the drive shaft 28 inch to meet with the motor or move
the motor by 28 inch into the tunnel to meet with the
existing drive shaft.
Working on the drive shaft should not be the problem,
I have friends who can form metal and weld
(and I understand the drive shaft needs to be balanced)

Suggestions or hints what to check if I do like to keep
the transmission for now? Or should I bite the bullet
and simply unbolt the transmission from the motor, then
mate the motor and driveshaft?
The transmission is definitely not running dry, even though
it is making strange noises - I now checked (cold and stopped
and I know that it should be checked hot and running) and
the level is 2 inch above "fill" level.
Or should I just go to pick-n-pull and get another transmission
bolt it in and call it a day?

I *really* would like to bring my consumption down to either
reduce charging time (for what I drive in my daily commute)
or to extend my range (now max 25 miles apparently so I wonder
what will happen in winter)

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too muchpower...

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Hello Cor,

You said the transmission modulator is receiving the vacuum straight off the
vacuum pump all the time!  This is not right.  The vacuum should vary with
the load of the motor.

In a ICE, when you accelerate, the vacuum of the engine drops, which sends a
low vacuum signal to the transmission modulator which increases the
transmission oil pressure for increase acceleration.

When you get up to a steady speed, then the vacuum increases, which reduces
the transmission oil pressure.

The transmission oil pressure should range to about 80 psi under light load
and up to 180 psi when acceleration.  You need more transmission oil
pressure to circulated through the transmission during the acceleration
mode.

In a automatic transmission that has automatic valve body with a vacuum
modulator, needs this variable vacuum control.  I did not want to use the
vacuum pump to control the transmission, so I replace the automatic valve
body with a manual valve body.

With a manual valve body, the vacuum modulator is not use, and a plug is
supply to block this off.  Also the governor is not use which selects the
shifting points which is adjusted by the adjustment screw on the vacuum
modulator.

To replace the automatic valve body with a manual valve body, all you have
to do is drop the oil pan and unbolt the automatic valve body and install
the manual valve body.  Follow the instruction sheet which shows where to
place the check values in the manual valve body.  These check valves look
just like ball bearings.

I also install a transmission oil pressure sender and a temperature oil
temperature to this transmission.  This first thing I look at when initially
start up the motor.  At idle, the oil pressure sets at 80 to 100 psi at
about 400 rpm.  When I accelerator up to speed, the oil pressure may get up
between 180 and 200 psi.

A automatic transmission with a automatic valve body, can have problems if
the vacuum line is leaking or disconnects or a bad vacuum modulator. This
sends a low vacuum signal all the time which will cause a very high
transmission oil pressure and will blow the oil pump seals and shoot out oil
out of the vent that is located on the top of the transmission.

So far in this high country where we got up to 80F degrees for the first
time, I drove all at all residential speeds from 25 to 45 mph for about 5
miles at a time with a lot of stop and starts.  It is normal for the
transmission oil temperature to run between 120 and 140F.

I am also running a large transmission cooler that has a large aluminum heat
sink fins using 3/8 inch SS tubing that is mounted below the floor pan next
to the transmission.

If a automatic transmission cooler is mounted in the front, make sure it is
in the front of any other radiators such as for A/C and controller cooling.
There should be a electric cooling fan for these radiators.  Sometimes when
these lines are long, they are normally increase to a 1/2 inch line and a
external assist oil pump which are use for automatic, manual and
differentials.

You can get these manual valve bodies and assisted oil pumps from jegs.com
or tci.com.  Talk to the techs for your application.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:35 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too
muchpower...


> Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of
> asking a short question and then subsequently posting
> the info after each of you ask what the setup of the
> vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as complete
> as I could be in one post - with the main question at
> the end of how to improve my efficiency:
>
> OK, I am not a mechanic so I like a little advice.
> I have been driving my "new" 1989 Ford Ranger conversion
> for a few weeks, put almost 300 miles on it but I have
> been struggling with the efficiency from day 1.
> http://evalbum.com/4259
> You may have seen my message saying that I took off the
> power steering belt, because it was consuming too much
> power and indeed the consumption reduced significantly
> but the truck is still using almost twice the power
> that I am used to from my previous S10 EV, which could
> hold 55 on a level road at about 15kW of power as
> reported by its WaveDriver AC controller. That consumption
> gave that truck a 65 mile range on the freeway with a
> 110Ah 312V lead-acid pack.
> When I try to maintain 55 in this truck the current
> draw is almost constantly pegged close to 300A at 110V
> so double what I expect. If I let up on the accelerator
> and stay around 200V at 110-120V the speed will be
> around 45 MPH. So, I need *more* power to go *slower* than
> the S10, which tells me something is not right. The S10
> was heavier (5000lbs with driver) compared to this Ranger
> that tips the scales at 4400 with driver.
>
> I trust the readings of Ford's meters, not only because
> they are reliable analog needle-style meters and connected
> to the battery pack (expanded scale voltmeter) and across
> the original shunt (Amp meter) but also because I have
> pushed the truck to do just over 25 miles yesterday and
> even though I was driving very conservatively the whole
> time (at the end there was road work on the freeway, so
> I could drop my speed from just over 50 to around 45 on
> the last stretch) the voltmeter dropped quickly towards
> the end, a few minutes after parking, the 120V pack had
> recovered back to 118V, so I know it was close to empty.
> Presuming that I can get about half the Ah out of this
> pack of US-145 Golf cart batteries at this high current
> draws, that means at least 120Ah at an average 110V and
> presuming an average speed on the freeway of 50MPH the
> power works out to 26kW to maintain that speed over the
> time it takes to drive 25 miles and consume those Ah.
> This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed
> by the fact that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times
> and after driving less than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh
> to recharge. Part of that is losses in the charger and
> also part is losses in the battery charging at 130V
> while driving it is done around 110V but it still comes
> down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was
> doing with my S10 that consumed about half that
> (270Wh/mi when doing constant 55 MPH)
>
> Tonight on the commute home the drivetrain started making
> a noise that I had never heard before. Luckily it mostly
> was present with full throttle, so I backed off a little
> and went home driving slower than usual (I don't really
> like doing 45 on the freeway, even where the limit is 55)
> and when I got home I touched the different drivetrain
> parts to see if I could find a culprit. The motor was warm,
> much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive
> with constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear
> so the motor does a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means
> that it is certainly not being lugged. There is a blower
> pushing air through the motor and at the inlet side it
> stays barely over handwarm, but I now felt the exhaust side
> near the brush grilles and I could not keep my hand more
> than few seconds on it.
>
> The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I
> could not touch it for more than a second. The transmission
> has a small cooler in the front, immediately behind the open
> grille, so I am wondering what causes the transmission to
> get so hot - possibly the oil is low, as I have noticed a
> small leak from around the fill/check tube - probably the
> O-ring is busted and this was a known problem apparently
> because I see some liquid gasket streaks around the point
> where the pipe enters the pan, but the pipe moves when the
> oil level is checked so that may have restarted the leak.
>
> The diff was warm but I could comfortably keep my hand on it
> so that is not the problem - it may need synthetic oil at
> some point if it has not already, but that is not the issue
> at this point.
> I know that wheels are pretty well aligned and no brake is
> dragging because even a small incline will cause the truck
> to roll away.
>
> I do not know if the brushes are properly advanced on this
> motor, but knowing that it was converted by a company for
> the city of Santa Rosa (converted by Pro EV in Penn Valley)
> probably back in April 1996 judging from the sticker on the
> controller (EV100 AKA EVT15, an IGBT forklift controller)
> gives me at least the idea that the motor was installed and
> setup properly. The previous owner also commented that the
> brushes looked like new, but I have reason to believe that
> the truck has done less than 1000 miles as EV and 69k of
> the 70k on the ODO were done before conversion. Reason that
> I think this is because the controller reports now that it
> has done 30 hours and when I got it almost 300 miles ago,
> it was reporting 22 run hours. So I probably need to keep
> an eye on the brushes and commutator to watch for signs
> of overheating or damage from excessive sparking, in case
> the brush advance was not setup correctly.
>
> But the main question I have now is: what is the matter
> with that automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that
> I cannot touch it after 15 mins of easy driving?
> I am guessing that that is where most of my unexplainable
> losses go.
> I can see that there are slightly larger losses in the
> tires (which are slightly wider than I had on my S10) and
> possibly in the diff, depending if the oil is already
> synthetic or not and of course the automatic transmission
> will always have slightly higher losses than a manual
> transmission.
>
> BTW: I checked the vacuum hose that runs from the brake
> system where the line from the vacuum pump and storage
> vessel comes into a T and runs from there onto the
> modulator for this transmission, so it has vacuum at
> all times (the power from this motor is never so high as
> to require increased oil pressue in the transmission.
> This transmission (A4LD) has torque converter lockup
> though I am not familiar enough with tranmissions to know
> if it will lock up above a certain RPM in every gear or
> only in some gears.
>
> I do know that first gear is very noisy, it sounds as if
> it is straight cut when I accelerate to some speed, say
> 15 MPH which is just over 2000 RPM and let go of the
> accelerator then I get a noticeable "engine drag" effect
> combined with noiceable sprocket noise (a typical whine
> from gear teeth) and both effects disappear when switching
> to a higher gear. I do all my freeway driving in 2nd gear
> and surface streets in 1st gear, so there is probably
> something wrong with 2nd gear or with the entire transmission
> if it consumes so much energy in an easy freeway drive as my
> commute is less than 2 miles surface streets with usually
> only 2 red lights before I reach the freeway, then over
> 7 miles straight road, followed by half a mile surface
> streets with only 2 lights immediately after each other.
>
> At this point I am ready to consider going direct drive,
> because the diff has 4.10 ratio, so in direct drive setup
> the motor will be doing 3620 RPM at 65 MPH and I remove
> what looks like the biggest energy drain on this truck.
> How can a 28 inch long hunk of metal warm up so much in
> such a mild drive while it is even cooled by a small
> radiator?
> The consequence of going direct drive will be that the
> low end torque will be less than when it can run in 1st
> gear (2.47), but when almost half the energy is lost in the
> transmission then removing it will more than make up for
> any loss of torque in 2nd gear (1.47 ratio).
> If the transmission is removed, I will either need to extend
> the drive shaft 28 inch to meet with the motor or move
> the motor by 28 inch into the tunnel to meet with the
> existing drive shaft.
> Working on the drive shaft should not be the problem,
> I have friends who can form metal and weld
> (and I understand the drive shaft needs to be balanced)
>
> Suggestions or hints what to check if I do like to keep
> the transmission for now? Or should I bite the bullet
> and simply unbolt the transmission from the motor, then
> mate the motor and driveshaft?
> The transmission is definitely not running dry, even though
> it is making strange noises - I now checked (cold and stopped
> and I know that it should be checked hot and running) and
> the level is 2 inch above "fill" level.
> Or should I just go to pick-n-pull and get another transmission
> bolt it in and call it a day?
>
> I *really* would like to bring my consumption down to either
> reduce charging time (for what I drive in my daily commute)
> or to extend my range (now max 25 miles apparently so I wonder
> what will happen in winter)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too muchpower...

Willie2
All that waste heat from automatic transmissions has to come from
somewhere.  The battery!  Best to dispense with ANY component that
generates much waste heat.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  95 days 10 hours 39 minutes

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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Morgan LaMoore
I am also wondering about the lockup point of the torque
converter - I'd expect that it would be no higher than at
2300 RPM, because that is 55 MPH in Overdrive.

You have given me a clue why I am burning so much of my
power in the transmission - it may not be the best to
keep my motor at or over 4000 RPM the whole drive home,
it could lower the loss in the transmission if it is
switched to higher gear once I reach freeway speed.
So, I will test the current draw at different gear
settings to maintain the same speed and figure out
how to avoid burning almost half my energy in the
transmission.

I will also ask for advice from a friend about removing
the transmission completely and simply run direct drive
which should result in a good efficiency improvement,
but might be not as easy as I think about - simply
removing the entire transmission and extending the drive
shaft.
The drawback is loss of torque (again) at lower speeds
though I still need to check the motor current limiting
as I never see the battery amps go much over 300A so
I am guessing that the new shunt that I put in with the
new IGBTs might be a higher resistance than stock,
causing the motor not to receive full amps from the
controller.
I expect that an 11 inch GE motor can be fed more than
300A.
Maybe in further future a Lithium upgrade is a good
thing - will reduce weight and improve acceleration
as well as giving a stiffer pack so power stays higher
and we have the double whammy effect.
Still I will look into efficiency improvements, so
thanks for the discussion and the suggestions!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use
toomuch power...

I wonder if the torque converter isn't locking up and is burning up lots
of power. 4000 RPMs in second gear would be heavy acceleration with an
ICE and wouldn't be a nice, efficient, low-reduction or locked operating
mode. If the losses are based on RPMs more than torque, an extra 10-15kW
of losses while accelerating hard wouldn't be a big deal like it is
while cruising.

Also, is the transmission oil pump pumping at a higher rate/pressure at
higher RPMs? Is some of the energy being transferred to the transmission
lubricant then being dissipated as heat?

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Apologies in advance for the long post, but instead of asking a short
> question and then subsequently posting the info after each of you ask
> what the setup of the vehicle is and what I noticed - here is as
> complete as I could be in one post - with the main question at the end

> of how to improve my efficiency:
>   ...
>
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use too much power...

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Cor van de Water wrote:

> The motor was warm,
> much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive
> with constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear
> so the motor does a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means
> that it is certainly not being lugged.

> The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I
> could not touch it for more than a second. The transmission
> has a small cooler in the front, immediately behind the open
> grille, so I am wondering what causes the transmission to
> get so hot

> But the main question I have now is: what is the matter
> with that automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that
> I cannot touch it after 15 mins of easy driving?

I suspect a large part of the problem is trying to drive this like a manual tranny.

Running the motor continuously at 4000RPM might decrease losses in the motor, but it is *not* a normal or easy operating point for the automatic tranny.  Normal for it will be something like 1500-2000RPM at the engine when cruising.

The oil pump is driven by the housing of the torque converter; the housing is bolted to the motor shaft via the flex plate (auto tranny equivalent of a flywheel).  When you spin the motor at 4000RPM, you are forcing the pump to move more oil than needed, and you will get more heating.

Another thing to be aware of is that unlike most other auto trannies, some Ford gearboxes will hold the tranny in 2nd when you select '2'.  That is, not only will the tranny not shift up out of 2nd (same as for anyone else's tranny), but (unlike other trannies), it starts in 2nd as well.  Other trannies will start in 1st and then shift up to 2nd but will not then upshift to 3rd.  So, if you manually force the tranny into '2', you will lose some acceleration from a stop vs simply accelerating in 'D' because you will start in 2nd rather than 1st.

I suggest that you try driving in 'D' for a while and keep track of your energy usage to see if it is more efficient.  Keep an eye (hand ;^) on motor temp, but don't worry too greatly about it; I suspect this is why the builder of your EV put a blower on the motor (most of us don't have external blowers, and so must keep motor RPM high enough for the internal fan to move sufficient air).  Oh yeah, bear in mind that the internal fan of the motor does not work particularly well at high RPM or at low RPM; 4000RPM might be a bit on the high side for most effective operation of the internal fan.  It is also on the high side for effective power from your motor.  For your pack voltage, the powerband of your motor probably starts falling off about 2000RPM.

As to the oil cooler; as someone else notes, ordinarily the tranny fluid is cooled by a *small* cooler inside one header tank of the engine radiator.  Given that the water temp is on the order of 200F, so is the tranny oil.  What most people don't realise is that the converse is also true, and is important: the tranny fluid is *heated* by the engine coolant.  This may not be too significant in CA, but in cold climates the seals in the tranny may wear and/or fail prematurely as a result of being operated with cold oil.

You might consider fitting a pressure gauge to your tranny (have it installed by (or get advice from) someone familiar with your particular tranny to ensure that it is installed at the proper place in the hydraulic circuit.  You might then add another T into the vacuum line to the tranny and run a line into the cabin with a valve or other means for you to vary the vacuum.  While driving, you could experiment with the vacuum to see if you can lower the line pressure somewhat and realise lower losses, or to see if you can modify the shift points (e.g. forcing the tranny upshift sooner, or to allow the motor to rev higher in each gear before upshifting).  This might not significantly improve efficiency, but it might help with your acceleration challenges.  It could be that if the tranny lowers the line (oil) pressure when it sees high vacuum (which implies light throttle for an ICE), then part of the tranny heating you are experiencing might be associated with clutches slipping!
  during hard acceleration as a result of always feeding the tranny high vaccum.  Slipping clutches will *rapidly* heat the tranny oil and will result in sluggish acceleration (and eventual tranny failure).

Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C3_transmission> states that the A4LD tranny uses an EEC-controlled lock-up converter, which likely means that you do not have lock-up operation on your conversion.  The good news is that you should be able to find the electrical connector at the transmission via which the converter receives its control signals, and can then wire in a switch to allow the converter to be locked and unlocked under manual control.  Be cautious of locking the converter at low (or zero) RPM to try to improve hard acceleration as the lock-up clutch is not intended for this usage and may fail prematurely.

I know there is lots here, but I think the key point to remember is that you need to experiment to determine the optimal operating point for the drivetrain as a system, rather than trying to optimize operation of any single part (e.g. operating the motor at high RPM to maximize motor efficiency).  Just as the motor efficiency curve is not flat, neither is that of the tranny, and the behaviour in one gear may vary significantly from that in another.  Watch your meters to determine the most efficient way to operate the vehicle; don't let preconceptions about how an (manual tranny) EV should be driven lead you astray.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

Cor van de Water
Thanks Roger!

That is exactly the process I am going through with this
rather unique vehicle - EV with automatic - but I need to
get my clues from either other people's experience and since
there are almost no EV with automatic, it is probably only
by experimenting and actually *measuring* that I will find
what is going on.
It does help to get pointers from people that have experience
with car technology, I have only passing (driving) experience
with automatics until now, so reading up on their operation
and service/rebuilding manuals to get an idea of what I am
dealing with.
Tonight I verified that pressing the accelerator down also
operates the linkage on the tranny that is supposed to give
kick down (move shift points) so I will try driving in [D]
and using kick down and see how it goes...

Good info about the Ford idiosyncrasy with the 2nd gear
not downshifting. I recognize that problem now that you
mention it - as I said, I have never driven much in
automatics, always had manual gear until I got a Prius
which is not comparable at all, so I am still figuring
things out.

One thing that I did find out while reading the service
manual for this transmission is that it is *way* overfilled.
When cold (not running and temp above 10 deg C) the fluid
is supposed to be between the two holes in the dipstick.
When running and warm, it is supposed to be in the hatched
area.
My transmission while cold has the fluid more than 2 inch
higher than the top hole in the dipstick. Oops. I believe
that also could contribute to the added drag/power loss
besides my overrevving the input to the transmission.

I will see if I can trace the EEC torque converter lockup
to find out if it is wired to something or left not
connected since the conversion. Since the motor is giving
RPM pulses to the controller, it may also pass this on to
the computer in the truck and the lockup may still work
but I will need to find where it goes and measure the
signals.
What RMP do you suggest that the torque converter should
(dis)engage? 2000 RPM?
I am not in favor of a manual lock-up switch. Too easy
to forget in hectic driving.

Another idea toying in my head is to go direct drive and
lose all the inefficiencies. To avoid a lot of work and
cost such as getting either the motor moved to the position
of the transmission and make new motor mounts, or getting
a customer long driveshaft to mate directly with the motor
but probably requiring an additional support bearing on the
front of the motor to avoid overloading the motor bearing
with the 28" extended driveshaft, I might use the transmission
and remove all internals, then have the input and output
connected directly with a pipe welded between them. This
still gives the support at the output to connect and
support the driveshaft, as well as the same input coupling
and keep the same mechanics and speedometer pickup, even
making sure that the same dimensions are there as if there
was a transmission instead of an empty shell with a pipe
connecting input and output... That would bring the motor
more in its power band but it would not help the acceleration
unless I mount low profile tires or find a diff with higher
than the current 4.10 reduction. But it would make the truck
much more efficient without requiring mechanical rework
(except the transmission internals). This would also allow
it to easy be brought back to the original automatic when the
direct drive is not giving good performance (unacceptable
acceleration for example) and I can't fix it by sending more
current to the motor (I have considered putting a different
controller in, either self-build around an IGBT module or
a fixed-up controller with more than the max 500A than this
EV100 should be able to deliver, though I have not seen more
than 300A until now...
OK, lots of things to test and experiment.
Thanks again for the input!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 9:07 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use
toomuch power...

Cor van de Water wrote:

> The motor was warm,
> much warmer than I expect after a 15 min 10 mile easy drive with
> constant speed. I keep the transmission in 2nd gear so the motor does
> a tad over 4000 rpm at 50MPH, which means that it is certainly not
> being lugged.

> The transmission however was very hot. Not smoking, but I could not
> touch it for more than a second. The transmission has a small cooler
> in the front, immediately behind the open grille, so I am wondering
> what causes the transmission to get so hot

> But the main question I have now is: what is the matter with that
> automatic gearbox? How can it get so hot that I cannot touch it after
> 15 mins of easy driving?

I suspect a large part of the problem is trying to drive this like a
manual tranny.

Running the motor continuously at 4000RPM might decrease losses in the
motor, but it is *not* a normal or easy operating point for the
automatic tranny.  Normal for it will be something like 1500-2000RPM at
the engine when cruising.

The oil pump is driven by the housing of the torque converter; the
housing is bolted to the motor shaft via the flex plate (auto tranny
equivalent of a flywheel).  When you spin the motor at 4000RPM, you are
forcing the pump to move more oil than needed, and you will get more
heating.

Another thing to be aware of is that unlike most other auto trannies,
some Ford gearboxes will hold the tranny in 2nd when you select '2'.
That is, not only will the tranny not shift up out of 2nd (same as for
anyone else's tranny), but (unlike other trannies), it starts in 2nd as
well.  Other trannies will start in 1st and then shift up to 2nd but
will not then upshift to 3rd.  So, if you manually force the tranny into
'2', you will lose some acceleration from a stop vs simply accelerating
in 'D' because you will start in 2nd rather than 1st.

I suggest that you try driving in 'D' for a while and keep track of your
energy usage to see if it is more efficient.  Keep an eye (hand ;^) on
motor temp, but don't worry too greatly about it; I suspect this is why
the builder of your EV put a blower on the motor (most of us don't have
external blowers, and so must keep motor RPM high enough for the
internal fan to move sufficient air).  Oh yeah, bear in mind that the
internal fan of the motor does not work particularly well at high RPM or
at low RPM; 4000RPM might be a bit on the high side for most effective
operation of the internal fan.  It is also on the high side for
effective power from your motor.  For your pack voltage, the powerband
of your motor probably starts falling off about 2000RPM.

As to the oil cooler; as someone else notes, ordinarily the tranny fluid
is cooled by a *small* cooler inside one header tank of the engine
radiator.  Given that the water temp is on the order of 200F, so is the
tranny oil.  What most people don't realise is that the converse is also
true, and is important: the tranny fluid is *heated* by the engine
coolant.  This may not be too significant in CA, but in cold climates
the seals in the tranny may wear and/or fail prematurely as a result of
being operated with cold oil.

You might consider fitting a pressure gauge to your tranny (have it
installed by (or get advice from) someone familiar with your particular
tranny to ensure that it is installed at the proper place in the
hydraulic circuit.  You might then add another T into the vacuum line to
the tranny and run a line into the cabin with a valve or other means for
you to vary the vacuum.  While driving, you could experiment with the
vacuum to see if you can lower the line pressure somewhat and realise
lower losses, or to see if you can modify the shift points (e.g. forcing
the tranny upshift sooner, or to allow the motor to rev higher in each
gear before upshifting).  This might not significantly improve
efficiency, but it might help with your acceleration challenges.  It
could be that if the tranny lowers the line (oil) pressure when it sees
high vacuum (which implies light throttle for an ICE), then part of the
tranny heating you are experiencing might be associated with clutches
slipping!
  during hard acceleration as a result of always feeding the tranny high
vaccum.  Slipping clutches will *rapidly* heat the tranny oil and will
result in sluggish acceleration (and eventual tranny failure).

Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C3_transmission> states
that the A4LD tranny uses an EEC-controlled lock-up converter, which
likely means that you do not have lock-up operation on your conversion.
The good news is that you should be able to find the electrical
connector at the transmission via which the converter receives its
control signals, and can then wire in a switch to allow the converter to
be locked and unlocked under manual control.  Be cautious of locking the
converter at low (or zero) RPM to try to improve hard acceleration as
the lock-up clutch is not intended for this usage and may fail
prematurely.

I know there is lots here, but I think the key point to remember is that
you need to experiment to determine the optimal operating point for the
drivetrain as a system, rather than trying to optimize operation of any
single part (e.g. operating the motor at high RPM to maximize motor
efficiency).  Just as the motor efficiency curve is not flat, neither is
that of the tranny, and the behaviour in one gear may vary significantly
from that in another.  Watch your meters to determine the most efficient
way to operate the vehicle; don't let preconceptions about how an
(manual tranny) EV should be driven lead you astray.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

David Dymaxion
Something else to throw into the mix is the S-10 is significantly more aerodynamic than the Ford, so aero drag might be part of your power loss. The GM Factory S-10 electric had just a 0.34 Cd, and the gassers had ~10 to 20% better aero than the Ford Ranger.
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

salty9
Have you checked the possibility of manually energizing the converter lock-up solenoid?
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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Cor van de Water wrote:

> What RMP do you suggest that the torque converter should
> (dis)engage? 2000 RPM?

I'd go lower than that.  1500-2000RPM would be normal cruising RPM, so I'd think disengaging about 1000RPM might make sense.

My caution is more to not try to accelerate from a stop with the converter locked, so perhaps to not lock up below 500RPM-1000RPM.

> I am not in favor of a manual lock-up switch. Too easy
> to forget in hectic driving.

If you search online for info about the A4LD, you'll find reference to manual control of the lockup converter being used to 'split' the gears in racing/performance applications.

> Another idea toying in my head is to go direct drive and
> lose all the inefficiencies. To avoid a lot of work and
> cost such as getting either the motor moved to the position
> of the transmission and make new motor mounts, or getting
> a customer long driveshaft to mate directly with the motor
> but probably requiring an additional support bearing on the
> front of the motor to avoid overloading the motor bearing
> with the 28" extended driveshaft, I might use the transmission
> and remove all internals, then have the input and output
> connected directly with a pipe welded between them. This
> still gives the support at the output to connect and
> support the driveshaft, as well as the same input coupling
> and keep the same mechanics and speedometer pickup, even
> making sure that the same dimensions are there as if there
> was a transmission instead of an empty shell with a pipe
> connecting input and output..

This is a larger task than you might think.  The automatic doesn't have input and output bearings like a manual tranny; typically there are bushings that rely on the pressurized oil from the tranny pump for lubrication.

Does your controller have reverse capability?

I think it would be easier and potentially cheaper to replace the automatic with a used manual, but don't bother with installing a clutch pedal. Leave the tranny locked in a single gear.

Unfortunately, with only a 500A controller, I think you will need a multispeed gearbox to get acceptable performance.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: Transmission is getting hot (motor too) and I use toomuch power...

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
I like the idea of mounting the motor in the driveshaft tunnel.  That frees
up more underhood space for batteries, to improve weight balance.

It would mean a lot of fabrication work, but if you have access to the
necessary facilities, that sounds like a good plan.

Another approach would be to fit a manual transmission.  If you lock it in
gear (second or third?) as USE did with their car conversions, you'd avoid
the hassle of a clutch and shifter.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: S-10 Power Use

Jay Summet
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On 06/23/2012 03:35 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:

> This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed by the fact
> that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times and after driving less
> than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh to recharge. Part of that is
> losses in the charger and also part is losses in the battery
> charging at 130V while driving it is done around 110V but it still
> comes down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was doing
> with my S10 that consumed about half that (270Wh/mi when doing
> constant 55 MPH)

My S-10 pickup conversion (120 volts, 20 six volt GC2 Golf Cart
batteries) has a "measured at the wall" power usage of between 500
wh/mi (on 20 mile trips at 25-35 mph with little stop & go driving) up
to 1100 wh/mi (on short 4 mile trips with lots of stop and go driving
and all of the charging inefficiencies involved with just toping up
the lead acid batteries).

Obviously, the actual wh/mi number used for driving is much lower (I
lose lots of power in the charging stages, especially when just
topping off the batteries.)

My truck doesn't appear to have dragging brakes (will roll away on a
very slight incline), and uses a clutchless manual transmission
(mostly left in 2nd). It has the larger "Trail AVP" (lots of rolling
resistance) tires that came with it, and I have no plans on replacing
them until they need it.

I made a new thread to not hijack Cor's thread, and wanted to get a
general sanity check....do these numbers (for at-the-wall usage) sound
reasonable for this setup?

Jay
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Re: S-10 Power Use

SLPinfo.org
Jay

I have a 1997 s10 with a 120v system (15 @ 8v) and my wall to wheels
numbers pretty much mirror yours.

Peter Flipsen
 On Jun 30, 2012 5:59 AM, "Jay Summet" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On 06/23/2012 03:35 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > This means a whopping 528 Wh/mi which is also confirmed by the fact
> > that I charged at a ChargePoint a few times and after driving less
> > than 10 miles it needed over 7kWh to recharge. Part of that is
> > losses in the charger and also part is losses in the battery
> > charging at 130V while driving it is done around 110V but it still
> > comes down to at least 500 Wh/mi at a lower speed than I was doing
> > with my S10 that consumed about half that (270Wh/mi when doing
> > constant 55 MPH)
>
> My S-10 pickup conversion (120 volts, 20 six volt GC2 Golf Cart
> batteries) has a "measured at the wall" power usage of between 500
> wh/mi (on 20 mile trips at 25-35 mph with little stop & go driving) up
> to 1100 wh/mi (on short 4 mile trips with lots of stop and go driving
> and all of the charging inefficiencies involved with just toping up
> the lead acid batteries).
>
> Obviously, the actual wh/mi number used for driving is much lower (I
> lose lots of power in the charging stages, especially when just
> topping off the batteries.)
>
> My truck doesn't appear to have dragging brakes (will roll away on a
> very slight incline), and uses a clutchless manual transmission
> (mostly left in 2nd). It has the larger "Trail AVP" (lots of rolling
> resistance) tires that came with it, and I have no plans on replacing
> them until they need it.
>
> I made a new thread to not hijack Cor's thread, and wanted to get a
> general sanity check....do these numbers (for at-the-wall usage) sound
> reasonable for this setup?
>
> Jay
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk/u6gsACgkQSWJjSgPNbM99QQCfSjyabsst1oS4vasG2+aZzI99
> OYoAn3dKWYQOCXrhLM4LzfKk4JDrObEm
> =bR2G
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: S-10 Power Use

mizlplix
Sorry to say this, but this is classic front planetary failure.  It most times cascade fails. planetary, sprag, converter, and the resultant metal pieces goe everywhere.

Pull the pan and dump into a clean dish. look for debris and metal.

Miz
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Re: S-10 Power Use

Cor van de Water
Hi Miz,
Are you responding to my Ford Ranger issue or to the S10 issue?

You mean the planetary inside the OD (aka coast clutch) drum?
It is shown 2/3 down this page:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98027&page=3

What tells you that this planetary is the problem?
I will drop the pan and check for trouble...
 
Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of mizlplix
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:37 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S-10 Power Use

Sorry to say this, but this is classic front planetary failure.  It most
times cascade fails. planetary, sprag, converter, and the resultant
metal pieces goe everywhere.

Pull the pan and dump into a clean dish. look for debris and metal.

Miz

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Re: S-10 Power Use

Rush Dougherty
TEST, computer crashed, lightening spike, and setting up laptop... thks

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S-10 Power Use

Hi Miz,
Are you responding to my Ford Ranger issue or to the S10 issue?

You mean the planetary inside the OD (aka coast clutch) drum?
It is shown 2/3 down this page:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98027&page=3

What tells you that this planetary is the problem?
I will drop the pan and check for trouble...
 
Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of mizlplix
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:37 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] S-10 Power Use

Sorry to say this, but this is classic front planetary failure.  It most
times cascade fails. planetary, sprag, converter, and the resultant metal
pieces goe everywhere.

Pull the pan and dump into a clean dish. look for debris and metal.

Miz

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Transmissio
n-is-getting-hot-motor-too-and-I-use-too-much-power-tp4655931p4656209.ht
ml
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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