Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

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Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

MPaulHolmes
Hello!  My wife and I are getting closer to being done with a 48v conversion.  We have a 1971 Super Beetle.  The total weight I'm guessing is going to be about 2000 pounds.  We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage we could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going much over 30 mph.  

P.S.:  If there are too many variables, you could just solve it for the case of a sphere and tell me that figure. (dumb math joke)
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To the Mailbox and Back

wjdennis@qwest.net
Took the new EV out for its first real drive tonight--down to the
mailbox and back.  About 1 mile each way.  Very steep on the return (the
final part of my daily commute).  Kept the car at 25 mph (the speed
limit) and the pack above 97V.   According to EVision, I used .31 kwh.  
Not bad.

Bill Dennis


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Neon John
In reply to this post by MPaulHolmes
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:42:15 -0700 (PDT), paul holmes <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>Hello!  My wife and I are getting closer to being done with a 48v conversion.
>We have a 1971 Super Beetle.  The total weight I'm guessing is going to be
>about 2000 pounds.  We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal
>stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage we
>could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going much
>over 30 mph.  

Man, you're going to hate that setup.  It won't go 30 mph off a cliff with a
tailwind.  That's FAR less power than a Citicar has and a stock one will
barely break 30.  That Curtis controller is 300 amps for only a few seconds.
Then it ramps back dramatically.  My GoBig scooter came with a 48 volt, 400
amp Curtis and a 36 volt battery (same as your controller, upgraded by EVParts
(I think)).  Within seconds it ramps back to only around 150 amps.  Even on
this 160 lb scooter, it felt soggy.  

I turbocharged the scooter with an Alltrax AXE 500 amp, 48 volt controller and
the difference was like night and day, even with the 36 volt battery.  The AXE
maintains its advertised output long enough to accelerate up to speed and then
maintains a large fraction of its output for tens of minutes.

As far as watt-hours/mile, you'll probably be close to a Citi.  You have a
more efficient motor and larger wheels which help but more frontal area and
weight which hurts.

I'm looking at some data logs on a 48 volt citi using a 500 amp Altrax as the
electrical log and a GPS as the speed log.

At 32 miles per hour, the battery voltage is 44.5 and the battery current is
138 amps.  That's 6.1kW.  That's 192 watt-hours/mile.  That's at a steady
speed on level ground and doesn't factor in hills or starts and stops. Typical
quoted Citi economy is in the 300-400 Wh/mile range.  I need to modify my
spreadsheet to compute a trip average.  Not tonight, though.

If you're stuck with 48 volts and that much weight, I suggest giving serious
consideration to the Citi-style contact controller.

The original controller had three stages:

24 volts through a resistor
24 volts directly to the motor
48 volts directly to the motor.

The pack is split in half and during 24 volt operation, the halves are in
parallel.  For 48 volts, they're in series.

There are two main contactors and one minor one.  One main one is the "F/R" or
forward/reverse contactor.  The other is the "S/P" or series/parallel
contactor.  The minor one bypassed the resistor when in 24 volt mode.  These
are all standard off-the-shelf golf cart parts.  If you're going to use your
transmission's reverse then you'd not need the F/R contactor.

The "accelerator" is a simple drum controller with cams to operate
microswitches.  In practice, step one was so low powered that one seldom goes
over a few feet before engaging step 2.  I rarely bothered with step 1. Step 2
is good to 10-15 mph when step 3 is engaged.  A 4th step could be added in the
form of another contactor to bypass part of the field current and constitutes
field weakening.  This might get you into the 30s.

Even on surface streets, the throttle is always pegged.  For true downtown
slow-going traffic, one dithers between the 2nd and 3rd stage.

Current is limited by the choice of cable size.  Nailing the throttle from a
near-stop pegs my 1000 amp Tong Test ammeter.  That much current thrashes the
batteries but it does let the car kinda sorta keep up with traffic moving away
from stop lights.

With your existing controller, you're going to be a (barely) moving roadblock.
This is the kind of car that gives EVs their bad rep for being
traffic-obstructing pigs.  You'll hate it and so will everyone around you.

Lots of Citi owners, myself included, convert to 72 volts and a 500 amp AXE
controller.  That makes a very nice urban car that can do around 50mph and can
keep up with traffic on surface streets.  You should give that serious
consideration.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If the letters PhD appear after a person's name, that person will
remain outdoors even after it's started raining.


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Dave King
John

You wouldn't have any more data to share on the Citi would you? A friend in
town just finished going to 72 volts but has a curtis. It sounds like he
might want to switch out if they drop that badly.

50mph in a citi? you must have a death wish ;-] 30 was waaay scary enough.
Just curious if you did some suspension mods.

Dave

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as watt-hours/mile, you'll probably be close to a Citi.  You have a
more efficient motor and larger wheels which help but more frontal area and
weight which hurts.

I'm looking at some data logs on a 48 volt citi using a 500 amp Altrax as
the
electrical log and a GPS as the speed log.

At 32 miles per hour, the battery voltage is 44.5 and the battery current is
138 amps.  That's 6.1kW.  That's 192 watt-hours/mile.  That's at a steady
speed on level ground and doesn't factor in hills or starts and stops.
Typical
quoted Citi economy is in the 300-400 Wh/mile range.  I need to modify my
spreadsheet to compute a trip average.  Not tonight, though.

If you're stuck with 48 volts and that much weight, I suggest giving serious
consideration to the Citi-style contact controller.

The original controller had three stages:

24 volts through a resistor
24 volts directly to the motor
48 volts directly to the motor.

The pack is split in half and during 24 volt operation, the halves are in
parallel.  For 48 volts, they're in series.

There are two main contactors and one minor one.  One main one is the "F/R"
or
forward/reverse contactor.  The other is the "S/P" or series/parallel
contactor.  The minor one bypassed the resistor when in 24 volt mode.  These
are all standard off-the-shelf golf cart parts.  If you're going to use your
transmission's reverse then you'd not need the F/R contactor.

The "accelerator" is a simple drum controller with cams to operate
microswitches.  In practice, step one was so low powered that one seldom
goes
over a few feet before engaging step 2.  I rarely bothered with step 1. Step
2
is good to 10-15 mph when step 3 is engaged.  A 4th step could be added in
the
form of another contactor to bypass part of the field current and
constitutes
field weakening.  This might get you into the 30s.

Even on surface streets, the throttle is always pegged.  For true downtown
slow-going traffic, one dithers between the 2nd and 3rd stage.

Current is limited by the choice of cable size.  Nailing the throttle from a
near-stop pegs my 1000 amp Tong Test ammeter.  That much current thrashes
the
batteries but it does let the car kinda sorta keep up with traffic moving
away
from stop lights.

With your existing controller, you're going to be a (barely) moving
roadblock.
This is the kind of car that gives EVs their bad rep for being
traffic-obstructing pigs.  You'll hate it and so will everyone around you.

Lots of Citi owners, myself included, convert to 72 volts and a 500 amp AXE
controller.  That makes a very nice urban car that can do around 50mph and
can
keep up with traffic on surface streets.  You should give that serious
consideration.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If the letters PhD appear after a person's name, that person will
remain outdoors even after it's started raining.


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Neon John
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 02:29:16 -0700, Dave King <[hidden email]> wrote:

>John
>
>You wouldn't have any more data to share on the Citi would you? A friend in
>town just finished going to 72 volts but has a curtis. It sounds like he
>might want to switch out if they drop that badly.

I can't find my 72 volt data logs.  Probably off in that great bit bucket in
the sky.  My web page has some info on the upgrade and I have some more that I
need to put up. He should pay particular attention to the motor mods that I
did. Forced cooling is a must.  The little motor was sufficiently over-driven
that it was more of a heater than a motor.  One of my plans was to change it
out for a D&D motor and if I could find one, a Dana axle flipped over so that
the motor stuck out the back.  A much larger motor is available for the Dana
than the Terrill.

 Answering specific questions would probably be more productive than trying to
do a brain dump on the project.
>
>50mph in a citi? you must have a death wish ;-] 30 was waaay scary enough.
>Just curious if you did some suspension mods.

50 was interesting in a white-knuckle way.  My short-term solution was to dial
in some toe-in to give it some straight-line stability at the expense of
range.  My long range plan was to cut the chassis and lengthen and raise it,
both for handling and to accommodate my 6'7" frame.  And make some geometry
changes to the steering.  Unfortunately life happened and I foolishly sold the
car before getting to do all of this work. Sure wish I had it back.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call 4 Blondes in an Abrams?  Air Tank.


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Dave King
Thanks John

I see you're a bit of a night owl as well.

I'll go look at your page and pass it on.

30 felt like I was trying to ride one of those rubber bouncy balls. Was a
weee bit tippy bouncy. Didn't really steer as much as aim and hang on. That
was what it seemed like anyway ;-]

Cheers

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 2:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 02:29:16 -0700, Dave King <[hidden email]> wrote:

>John
>
>You wouldn't have any more data to share on the Citi would you? A friend in
>town just finished going to 72 volts but has a curtis. It sounds like he
>might want to switch out if they drop that badly.

I can't find my 72 volt data logs.  Probably off in that great bit bucket in
the sky.  My web page has some info on the upgrade and I have some more that
I
need to put up. He should pay particular attention to the motor mods that I
did. Forced cooling is a must.  The little motor was sufficiently
over-driven
that it was more of a heater than a motor.  One of my plans was to change it
out for a D&D motor and if I could find one, a Dana axle flipped over so
that
the motor stuck out the back.  A much larger motor is available for the Dana
than the Terrill.

 Answering specific questions would probably be more productive than trying
to
do a brain dump on the project.
>
>50mph in a citi? you must have a death wish ;-] 30 was waaay scary enough.
>Just curious if you did some suspension mods.

50 was interesting in a white-knuckle way.  My short-term solution was to
dial
in some toe-in to give it some straight-line stability at the expense of
range.  My long range plan was to cut the chassis and lengthen and raise it,
both for handling and to accommodate my 6'7" frame.  And make some geometry
changes to the steering.  Unfortunately life happened and I foolishly sold
the
car before getting to do all of this work. Sure wish I had it back.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call 4 Blondes in an Abrams?  Air Tank.


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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by Neon John
>Hello!  My wife and I are getting closer to being done with a 48v
conversion.
>We have a 1971 Super Beetle.  The total weight I'm guessing is going to be
>about 2000 pounds.  We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal
>stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage we
>could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going much
>over 30 mph.

I'll say, with that setup I doubt you'll even make it UP to 30 mph,
especially without any hills to roll down.  Actually, you can probably
make it to 30 mph, if it's not windy, but it will take a long time.

Anyway, you should probably specify if you are looking for WH Per Mile
from the pack or from the outlet.
My guess, at around 25 mph, you'll see about 250 WHPM from the pack.  What
you get from the outlet depends a lot on your charger.

I'm guessing you probably went cheap on the charger.  As a total swag,
450-500 WHPM, but that's a guess, based on a guess, based on a guess.




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Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car, WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Bob Rice-2
In reply to this post by Dave King
   Hi EVerybody;

  AH! Citi-Cars again? I speak from my experiance with them at startup! Yup!
Guilty! Of helping"Design" the Citi's suspension and steering. It  was sorta
based on my Taiwan ElectroLiner ,I had cobbled together in Taichung, Taiwan;
Solid axle, lief springs, etc. Hell! I'm NOT an automobile engineer!I just
"Built" stuff, Oh This SHOULD work, played around with caster camber angles
by"Oh It LOOKS like it'll work?" Take it out on the road, Gees it steers
wierd, had a buddy there in the Army who had built cars as a hobby. HE
suggested the angle of the Spindle arms so the damn car would turn corners;
inside wheel taking a shorter radious. WOW! Who'd a thunk it?

    The Electro Liner cruised at 25-30MPH so ride and handling wasn't much
of an issue.So I figured I could keep my relative "sucess" going. Citi car
was a shorter wheelbase than the" Liner" I had a longer drag link, or
whatEVer ya call the arm that goes from the steering box to the spindle?
Bump steer wasn't as much of an issue, as the arm was longer. I tried
different steer ing , and suspension setups, coils and shocks, slowly
evolvoing, as I realized I was TRYING to reinvent the Automobile. Sigh!
Wasn't my intention! Automobiles wre pretty perfected, even in the 60's!
Later on just saying " I don't want to bother" at starting from scratch,
although with what I know NOW, sure woulda helped 40 years ago!But for what
you lack in basic automotive engineering you make up for with sheer
determination, foolishness, and TIME, infinate patience. The Good Stuff was
I had a light chassis. You could just roll ElectroLiner over on it's side
WITHOUT the batteries, like to work on it! Maybe it weighed 3-400 lbs? so I
had SOME stuff right.a centralize battery box that hel;d 6 8d truck
batteries, supported low down in the chassis, using design principles of an
elongated Archbar type RR truck, you could slide the battery pack OUT to
swap batteries, although I never did, I COULD have. Thinking of "Taichung
Electric Taxi Service", a "home Base" near the Taiwan  RR station, Trains
were the best way to go any distance in Taiwan, back then. Car sorta evolved
like a Jeepney, Phillipine style. Two Motor drive, one for each rear wheel.,
streetcar-like series parallel control. Bob Beaumont took a few of my BETTER
ideas with Tropica with the twin motor drive, natures' most perfect
differential.So "Beau" Bob Beaumont wanted a bare bones basic automoble and
by God he got it! Sorry, guyz, it WAS Bad! This is why I say get a Citi,
restore it as a historical curiosity. Don't DRIVE it on todaze crazy ass
streets! Unless yur life insurance is paid up,have no loving Significent
Others ,or as somebody commented a death wish?For God's sake don't TRY to
soup it up!The hell with it!Go buy a Rabbit, Carman Ghia, Porshe, something
somebody cleverer than you ,had done the design work on? By the time ya hack
and upgrade a Citi with real suspension, brakes etc ya COULDA converted a
Real car, with functioning doors windoz, brakes, lights; silly stuff like
that!etc Yeah! I have been saying, and I'll stick to it, conversions are an
excersize in Masochism! Godamn car is TOO heavy to begin with, 2000lbs for a
damn Jetta! I stuff 1000 lbs of battery in it and I'm overweight? Yeah! I
KNOW I'M overweight, I mean the CAR! This is why I feel Lee Hart, Tim Medeck
to be nominated for Sainthood!! For realizing, like Elon Musk, that EV's are
just begging to be purpose built? Elon has deeper pockets, though.I think
had he spotted Les an' Tim to a few mil. he woulda got more bang for his
buck?!EV-1 comes to mind. We all know it was a flop? NOT! BOY! Did it work,
I LOVED that car! I wanted it from Day One In Montreal, at EVS-Something
YEARS ago. Only General Murders car I EVer wanted. To see them crushed to
death in the movie brings tears to your(MY) eyes, emotional guy here.When I
saw my First Honda Insite I said WOW! Son of EV-1 !Form follows function, a
baby EV-! Too bad they didn't last long enough that threre were many used
ones to pick from to convert to a REAL EV!? NOW that woulda been a
conversion biz? Lite Wayland style battery packs, AC drive from AC
Propulsion, or Metric Mind's stuff? a 2000 lb EV/ Batteries included?Yeah!
Where DID all the Insites go?? Sure as hell don't see any on the road
anymore??Honda didn't recall and kill them?

    Anyhooo? Enough electrons inconvenienced for now, with this post?

    Seeya at the ShoreLine Trolley Museam  Tomorrow?

     Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave King" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle


> John
>
> You wouldn't have any more data to share on the Citi would you? A friend
> in
> town just finished going to 72 volts but has a curtis. It sounds like he
> might want to switch out if they drop that badly.
>
> 50mph in a citi? you must have a death wish ;-] 30 was waaay scary enough.
> Just curious if you did some suspension mods.
>
> Dave
> >


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Neon John
paul holmes <[hidden email]>
>> Hello!  My wife and I are getting closer to being done with a 48v conversion.
>> We have a 1971 Super Beetle.  The total weight I'm guessing is going to be
>> about 2000 pounds.  We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal
>> stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage we
>> could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going much
>> over 30 mph.  

Neon John wrote:
> Man, you're going to hate that setup.

I agree with John about the performance. It will have a very low top
speed (30-40 mph) and take 30-60 seconds to get there. But, maybe that's
all you want?

I really think you should use a higher-power controller for a 2000 lbs
vehicle. A 48v 300amp Curtis is a golf cart controller; intended for
vehicles that weigh 1/3 as much. Even if you don't need the power, a
bigger controller will run a lot cooler and last a lot longer. And, it
provides an upgrade path if you discover you really do want/need more
speed or faster acceleration.

On batteries: Are you sure your curb weight will be only 2000 lbs? The
*stock* weight is listed as 1918-2028 lbs. James Joyce's 1971 Super
Beetle EV conversion at www.evalbum.com/294 weighs 2400 lbs with nine
12v batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Alan Brinkman
In reply to this post by MPaulHolmes
Paul,

I did not find the energy usage numbers you are looking for in a quick
search of VW's on the EV Album, but from the range, depth of discharge,
number and capacity of batteries listed on some of the cars, I bet a
more savy person than I could do the math.

However, I did find the following site of a VW build that I was
impressed with:
http://www.staplescenter.smugmug.com/gallery/3486058_QaKsE#196321021_6s7
WC

I bet with your low top speed and flat roads that your energy usage
would correlate a lot to the alignment of the wheels, the type and
pressure in the tires, wheel bearings, brakes not dragging, etc.

Enjoy!

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of paul holmes
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:42 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle


Hello!  My wife and I are getting closer to being done with a 48v
conversion.
We have a 1971 Super Beetle.  The total weight I'm guessing is going to
be
about 2000 pounds.  We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal
stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage
we
could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going
much
over 30 mph.  

P.S.:  If there are too many variables, you could just solve it for the
case
of a sphere and tell me that figure. (dumb math joke)
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Watt*Hr-Mile-for-a-VW-beetle-tp18395768p18395768.h
tml
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.


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Re: Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car, WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Neon John
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:12:55 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>   Hi EVerybody;
>
>  AH! Citi-Cars again? I speak from my experiance with them at startup! Yup!
>Guilty! Of helping"Design" the Citi's suspension and steering. It  was sorta
>based on my Taiwan ElectroLiner ,I had cobbled together in Taichung, Taiwan;

So YOU are the one that I get to curse for using an ordinary bolt as the
kinpin, eh?  And about those brakes..... :-)

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. -Marie Curie


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

MPaulHolmes
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal


Peter VanDerWal wrote
I'll say, with that setup I doubt you'll even make it UP to 30 mph,
especially without any hills to roll down.  Actually, you can probably
make it to 30 mph, if it's not windy, but it will take a long time.
It's not very windy in the area I live.  Also,  I do live it an area with a slight hill to start my commute.  Also, I work at the top of a very small hill, so if the light at the trough of the baby hill doesn't turn red, I can make it to work, and make it home!  IF the light does turn red, I'll just park on the side of the road and walk the rest of the way there.  It's not far.  Alternatively, I could invest in one of those firetruck light changers.  

P.S.:  How did you know I got cheap chargers (four 6amp 12v)???  That's amazing!
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Re: Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car, WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Neon John
Neon John wrote [of Bob Rice]:
> So YOU are the one that I get to curse for using an ordinary bolt as the
> kingpin, eh?

Yep. Bob was the "Scotty" of the Starship Sebring-Vanguard. :-) "Ach,
Cap'n Beaumont, the engine canna take any more!"

 > And about those brakes... :-)

Brakes? The first ones had Dico airplane brakes. Can't beat aircraft
quality, right? :-) Besides, who needs brakes when it won't go that fast?

Seriously, I think Bob did a fantastic job under the circumstances. You
have to remember that Sebring Vanguard was a *tiny* company, terribly
underfinanced, in a horrible location, competing with some of the
largest companies in the world. Yet they produced and sold *thousands*
of on-road EVs. I don't think anyone yet has produced more EVs than they
did!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Neon John
In reply to this post by MPaulHolmes
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:11:26 -0700 (PDT), paul holmes <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>> I'll say, with that setup I doubt you'll even make it UP to 30 mph,
>> especially without any hills to roll down.  Actually, you can probably
>> make it to 30 mph, if it's not windy, but it will take a long time.
>>
>
>It's not very windy in the area I live.  Also,  I do live it an area with a
>slight hill to start my commute.  Also, I work at the top of a very small
>hill, so if the light at the trough of the baby hill doesn't turn red, I can
>make it to work, and make it home!  IF the light does turn red, I'll just
>park on the side of the road and walk the rest of the way there.  It's not
>far.  Alternatively, I could invest in one of those firetruck light
>changers.  

Yours would be a perfect application for a controller bypass contactor.  This
is a contactor wired to simply short across the controller output bus bars and
connect the motor directly to the battery.

The usual way to do this is to have a manual pushbutton, a "turbo" button on
the dash or even on the steering wheel that actuates the contactor.  There
needs to be an interlock so that you can't actuate the bypass at low speed or
stationary.

The way that I did it on a Citi car that has a limp electronic controller was
to use a 36 volt contactor.  I tapped the voltage to operate the contactor
from the motor's terminals.  The contactor would pull in at between 24 and 36
volts.  Pushing the turbo button at any lower speed did nothing because there
was insufficient voltage available to operate the contactor.

The guy for whom I installed this bypass contactor had installed a Curtis,
though I never bothered to figure out which one.  He was sick at the lame
performance compared to the contactor controller, especially after hearing all
the rave reviews for solid state controllers.  The controller bypass contactor
restored his EV grin :-)

Using the turbo button is easy.  Simply accelerate using the throttle pedal
until the car more or less quits accelerating.  Push the button and hang on
:-)  Release the throttle pedal and hold the turbo button until you need to
slow.

Perhaps an un-necessary precaution, but I advised him to always let completely
off the throttle before releasing the turbo button.  I didn't know whether
suddenly cutting the controller back in with power being demanded by the
accelerator would cause any harm or not.  So we erred on the side of caution.

The car has been running fine for years, as have several scooters that I also
converted.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There are only 10 types of people in this world
Those who understand binary and those who don't.


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Othev Stuff, an' Ramblings; WAS Re: Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car,WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Bob Rice-2
In reply to this post by Neon John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car,WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a
VW beetle


> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:12:55 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>   Hi EVerybody;
>>
>>  AH! Citi-Cars again? I speak from my experiance with them at startup!
>> Yup!
>>Guilty! Of helping"Design" the Citi's suspension and steering. It  was
>>sorta
>>based on my Taiwan ElectroLiner ,I had cobbled together in Taichung,
>>Taiwan;
>
> So YOU are the one that I get to curse for using an ordinary bolt as the
> kinpin, eh?  And about those brakes..... :-)
>
> John
   Hi John;

   Yeah, Sigh! Yoou COULD tighten the damn bolt when things got sloppy to
get rid of rattles? Sorta like a Kingpin Preload? Brakes? Yeah right? We
used, regulat pressed trailer drums in back. A few runs and, rest assured
you got the grab, grab, grab, when you slowed down, could NEVER talk the
powers that be to use regular ROUND cast iron drums. The Gurdes? FRONT's
were disc from light planes,Cessnas? they were relatively light and sorta
worked?The brake Thing was never resolved EVen after I left? BIGGEST thing
there was the hidious humidy and heat in Sebring, Less than one year and I
was GONE! The bugs, opressive humidity, RAIN ,every afternoon, place like a
mouldy steambath, place was so OUT of it! Taiwan and Viet Nam both had more
pleasent climates! Oh, yeah, did I mention snakes, roaches, love bugs,other
crawly things , etc, etc etc. And people STILL buy places in Highlands
County and the Silver Meteor STILL stops there!!??CT is paradise, compared
with There. Only issue will be affording heating oil at 5 bux a gallon,
here, but folks STILL give away firewood up here! I guess the best move is
to find a Significent Other in FLA to winter there, summer up here?I hear
OTHER people do that? Miami is nice in Jan. Like Summer in CT<g>!Wanted Bob
B. to open his plant in Kingston NY where he was FROM, origionally, but the
Volture Capitalists had property in FLA, unused, yeah! Can't imagine WHY?
old WW-2 hangers at the Sebring Airport and Sebring Race Trak! They figured
they would save a buk, in FLA?One of the scenic points out there was a
mouldy ghost fleet of stored Super Connies, parked just off the runway.
Capitol Airlines markings!The big 3 tails, curvy fuseloge,Hiding under
creeping green mould, the Titanic shots with the rusticles comes to mind,
although Titanic, at that time, was still hiding, undiscovered. BIG ocean,
small boat!

   If ya can find"The Lost Cord" by Barbara Taylor it tells the story. She
really did her homework on the Beaumont Biography. "Beau's" heart was in the
right place, a man ahead of his time, by 35 years, BEFORE good electronics.
I took Beau for a spin in my Rabbit, at a reunion at the Battronic Truck
Museum in PA, it blew him away as my 9" ADC and DCP Rapture controller did
their stuff. He was heard to say" Gees! Had we all this 35 years ago" I,
think I said "Amen", or something to that effect. Remember gas was, what,
29-32 sense a gal, back then, who cared? Same issue with Bob Aronson, and
Electric Fuel Propulsion in Detoilet, MI. Nobody was beating down his doors
for 4200 lb Mars 2's, converted Renault R-10's?He sold about 40 of these
beasts. Wonder if ANY have survived?? I think CT would have had a BIG GVW
issue with them<g>? I always felt that we had a good thing going with
American Motors. THEY were willing to sell us modded gliders, for our
drivetrain. What a DEAL! Sigh/? Anybody remember American Motors? Or Baldwin
Locomotive Works, or J.G. Brill??Or soon to be General Murders,stock worth
less than Hog Heaven Harley- Davidson. who JUST opened a new H.D. Museum in
Milwaukee. An EV-1 type loyalty there. Guyz will make pilgrimages to the new
Mecca, hallowed ground, of course on their Harlies? We WOULDA had that with
the EV-1 fanclub; :Driving the Future" Oh! I remember. Sigh.But they TRASHED
us! See the FIRST Harley there! Ah , for what COULD have been?

   In my ramblings I guess I was too far ahead of my time, too? Sigh. But
STILL living it. We had a good turnout at the Branford Trolley Museum, our
regular EAA Klub meeting. Some of the guyz EVen took a trolley ride!The
usual gang plus a few newbees. I get calls, Oh I get calls! As I'm on thew
Website, fone rings right out of my pocket, Ha Ha they USED to ring off the
hook! Tech has changed!Or hits on my E mail. This is great stuff we just
didn't have 'way back then. I mean other factors becides 5 bux a gal for
gas. We US-ians shouldn't be whinning, as Gas has been almost TWICE that in
France,The UK, Norway, Israel, Germany, all those nice places Over
There.We're seeing reality, in USA, now. Reality sucks,we'll have to get
over it, I guess? Who the hell do WE think we are? We've had a free ride,
well almost, way too long?And rambled too long?!

   Seeya in Aug.

   Bob

  ELECTRICS, First and Last Cars.
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. -Marie Curie

    Or ;Be the Change you want to See in the World" Ghandi.

       next to.

      "Start Slowly" Tag off old DC Motor.


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Re: Othev Stuff, an' Ramblings; WAS Re: Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car,WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Lee Hart
Bob Rice wrote:

> "Beau's" heart was in the right place, a man ahead of his time, by 35 years, BEFORE good electronics.
> I took Beau for a spin in my Rabbit, at a reunion at the Battronic Truck
> Museum in PA, it blew him away as my 9" ADC and DCP Rapture controller did
> their stuff. He was heard to say" Gees! Had we all this 35 years ago" I,
> think I said "Amen", or something to that effect.
>
> Or...
> "Be the Change you want to See in the World" Ghandi
> next to...
>       "Start Slowly" Tag off old DC Motor

Great advice (and juxtaposition), Bob!

I think all great ideas are ahead of their time. You have to start
early, slowly, before anyone else, and work your way up.

Somebody has to go first. The CitiCar wasn't a failure. It gave
thousands of us our first chance to own and drive an EV. It showed
millions of naysayers that electric cars could be built at affordable
prices.

My hat's off to Bob Rice and all the other pioneers, without whose
efforts EVs would be even farther away today!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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Re: Othev Stuff, an' Ramblings; WAS Re: Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car,WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle

Neon John
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:36:51 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[hidden email]> wrote:


>   Yeah, Sigh! Yoou COULD tighten the damn bolt when things got sloppy to
>get rid of rattles? Sorta like a Kingpin Preload? Brakes? Yeah right? We
>used, regulat pressed trailer drums in back. A few runs and, rest assured
>you got the grab, grab, grab, when you slowed down, could NEVER talk the
>powers that be to use regular ROUND cast iron drums. The Gurdes? FRONT's
>were disc from light planes,Cessnas? they were relatively light and sorta
>worked?The brake Thing was never resolved EVen after I left?

I still don't understand why they did that.  Good golf cart, or for that
matter great small car axles were available at the time, as were good, small
drum brakes.  They couldn't have cost much more.

Re discs:  It's bad when the disc brakes are so bad that Glenn Stevens offers
drum retrofit kits to IMPROVE the braking.  Sheesh, what were they thinking?

>BIGGEST thing
>there was the hidious humidy and heat in Sebring, Less than one year and I
>was GONE! The bugs, opressive humidity, RAIN ,every afternoon, place like a
>mouldy steambath, place was so OUT of it! Taiwan and Viet Nam both had more
>pleasent climates! Oh, yeah, did I mention snakes, roaches, love bugs,other
>crawly things , etc, etc etc. And people STILL buy places in Highlands
>County and the Silver Meteor STILL stops there!!??

Heard that.  I used to do regular business in Jacksonville and that was bad
enough.  I can't imagine having to actually work in a place that far south and
in the middle of a swamp.

>   If ya can find"The Lost Cord" by Barbara Taylor it tells the story. She
>really did her homework on the Beaumont Biography. "Beau's" heart was in the
>right place, a man ahead of his time, by 35 years, BEFORE good electronics.

I've been casually looking for that book.  Maybe if I looked a bit longer

You know, I REALLY liked my Citi despite all its shortcomings and could kick
myself for selling it.  I love the flying door wedge design.  My biggest
complaints other than the brakes and steering are that it's too damned small,
but then again, many cars are for us 6'7" guys, and just too damned slow.  I'd
like to set the car in a transmorgifier, set the scaling factor to about 1.25
and enlarge it that much in all dimensions.

I had a Citi back in the day to drive.  My mentor and second father bought one
at a car auction for something like a dollar or maybe 10 dollars.  I was quite
young at the time and had a ball with it until the batteries died.  I think
that this one might be the OTHER Citi that is in town now.  I do know that it
was rescued from under a tree on a farm out in the county.  Can't imagine
there being too many others in Bradley Co, TN.

>I took Beau for a spin in my Rabbit, at a reunion at the Battronic Truck
>Museum in PA, it blew him away as my 9" ADC and DCP Rapture controller did
>their stuff. He was heard to say" Gees! Had we all this 35 years ago" I,
>think I said "Amen", or something to that effect.

He COULD have gone with a hybrid system similar to what I'm working on now,
only all done mechanically.  A SEPEX motor with the contact controller and a
rheostat to control the field for even more speed after full voltage is
applied.  Not much more than the cam controller that they did use would have
been necessary.

Oh, and 72 volts from the start would have been nice.  2 batteries in the
front and two on the package shelf kept the weight distribution almost exactly
the same on my car.  72 volts and a SEPEX motor would have been a killer
combo, even in the 70s.

>Remember gas was, what,
>29-32 sense a gal, back then, who cared?

With enough speed and range, I think that a decent number of people would have
been interested even back then.  Operating economy is only part of the
attraction of an EV for me.  Breaking the umbilical with the gas station is
the other major part.  

I certainly don't hate oil companies (my oil stock is doing quite well, thank
you :-) but I've always disliked the whole gas buying process, from having to
get out in the heat or cold to having to deal with surly attendants (before
pay at the pump) and having to detour off my planned path to get gas.  Hoping
in the car or on my scooter every morning knowing that it was/is fully fueled
is a GREAT feeling.

I would certainly have bought an EV back then if it would have kept up with
traffic on city streets and would go 60 miles or so on a charge.  And not cost
twice as much as a gas car while having great character, of course.

Lack of character is one thing that has held me off until now doing a
conversion.  I've pretty much settled on a small pickup for my current project
but I know that it'll have not even the fraction of the character of my Citi.
It'll just be a transportation appliance.

Mine's going to be a series plug-in hybrid.  It is 120 miles round trip off
the mountain here and to the Wallyworld and other places I routinely go. Doing
that without gutting my savings for Li just can't be done without a range
extender or serious mid-trip opportunity charging, something I don't want to
hassle with.  It might not be doable even then, as the return trip is all up
hill, going up about 1800 ft in the process.  So it'll be range-boosted.  I'll
be using a small automotive gas engine to drive the generator, perhaps a 3
cylinder Geo Metro engine if I can find one.  

It'll be equipped with my homemade EFI controller and will have a catalytic
converter.  Though I'm not an eco-nazi, I dislike the smell of exhaust fumes
as much as the next guy.  I should be able to achieve some superb efficiency
with the EFI and being able to tune the engine for optimal operation at one or
two speeds.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Hell is truth seen too late. -Hobbs


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Re: Watt*Hr/Mile for a 48v VW beetle

Darin -@- ForkenSwift.com
In reply to this post by MPaulHolmes
Hey Paul -

> We have a 48v 300amp Curtis Controller.  Just normal
> stock wheels right now.  Any guesses as to the watt*hr/mile energy usage we
> could expect?  Also, we live in a very flat area, and I won't be going much
> over 30 mph.

The ForkenSwift is 2070 lbs.  Even though it now has a 400A Curtis, I
did try the same 300A Curtis you have, and it was fine for side street
sub/urban driving.

Though by others' reactions to your car's specs, "fine" is subjective!
Maybe I have lower than average expectations.

Assuming your car rolls well, it will eventually reach and exceed 30 mph
on level ground.  But Lee was right: it'll take somewhere around 30
seconds to do it (on a fresh charge)!

To your original question...  380 wh/mi was my average for the winter
half of the year (Nov through Mar), measured at the wall socket
(kill-a-watt).  In spring weather (Apr through mid June), 291 wh/mi.  I
haven't driven it enough this summer to take any more readings (for
local trips I'm riding my bicycle mostly), but I expect it would be even
better now.

Also, these readings are on the "B" pack of used, worn out batteries.
I'm hoping when I get around to switching over to the somewhat less worn
out "A" pack soon, the figure will improve even more.

cheers-
Darin

http://forkenswift.com
http://www.evalbum.com/1146



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