Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
Www.Reevadiy.org.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I understand the engineering theory behind this line of reasoning, but I think in practice it has not  played out this way.  I guy I work has driven his Model S around the Midwest to the tune of 50,000+ miles a year for a couple of years now performing onsite service to our customers with no battery related issues.  Nissan Leaf owners wish they had it so well.  Their cars have been riddled with battery problems primarily due to the lack of a thermal management system.  The difference in the experience has nothing to do with the size of cells or number of connections.

I do agree with you that a solution with less possible points of failure and all other engineering being equal is the one to pick, but those are not the choices that consumers are being given.  The Tesla is a very well engineered car and there is enough real world results to know that the battery pack is not an issue.   Tesla batteries are doing well into the multiple hundreds of thousands of miles territory.

Damon
________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 12:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Mark Hanson
Subject: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Www.Reevadiy.org&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd1f13bec89f84c61f95108d62d569ce1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636746247348859395&amp;sdata=9u1itIUVA0QwLP8tNAlr57Aj2s6YhE9qLlDg2IHtfz8%3D&amp;reserved=0.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2Findex.html%23usub&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd1f13bec89f84c61f95108d62d569ce1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636746247348859395&amp;sdata=4SYlWP%2BUUMnSJQt%2F%2FDWX51BQv9sCcACimWUqcmIhwt0%3D&amp;reserved=0
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.evdl.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fev-evdl.org&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd1f13bec89f84c61f95108d62d569ce1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636746247348859395&amp;sdata=2U1wk1sC7RsFVcvTV4G1FMF5Jj8cW8O21s1o2ApRSfk%3D&amp;reserved=0
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgroups.yahoo.com%2Fgroup%2FNEDRA&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd1f13bec89f84c61f95108d62d569ce1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636746247348859395&amp;sdata=KJ%2Bb7hY6Sb9q7wgtQhhLQ2iHqJA12Gv8fN15ARjgF9Q%3D&amp;reserved=0)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181008/4dc24a50/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I don’t think your fears are based on any real data. The prismatic cells used in other cars have just as many points of failure they are just packaged differently. I cut open batteries and they contain layers of cells all connected in parallel. It’s the same thing except the cells aren’t fused like a Tesla. If you loose one parallel cell in a prismatic package you loose the whole thing. Reliability comes from design and testing. Tesla did all that before the made the first model S.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 8, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
> Have a renewable energy day
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Www.Reevadiy.org.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark, You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions of transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the bipolar transistor!  Good luck with that!
 

    On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

 Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
Www.Reevadiy.org.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181009/f8a47d14/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
  Quoting Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]>:

I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty  
cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability  
reasons (even with each one fused

Unfortunately,too many folks(Media)go through life lacking basic  
science concepts. For example, few schools offer *Concept Physics* as  
well as a second physics course where the emphasis is on the math. For  
many, who are challenged by the math, physics is not taken. My  
favorite is, Bernoulli's Principle a fun concept that could benefit  
folks if they understood it.

I am told that if the tiny air sacs(alveoli)in our lungs were laid out  
flat,they would cover a tennis court. Our body cells are "itty  
bitty"as is the cell "machinery" inside them. Trees have manny small  
leaves, not just one or two. I have not had a course in biophysics and  
am not an electrical engineer, but I trust the engineers at Tesla  
based what I see in nature. 

> Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is  
> they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight  
> batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those  
> points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces  
> reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling  
> etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send  
> a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as  
> this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how  
> this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm  
> surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty  
> cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for  
> reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
> Have a renewable energy day
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Www.Reevadiy.org[1].
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgPlease discuss EV drag  
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



Links:
------
[1] http://Www.Reevadiy.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181008/c408facb/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..

There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers of
single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla battery
with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...

Bob


 On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

 Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're
the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an
onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports
gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a
battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.
I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability
reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.

Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181009/f8a47d14/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I didn't like the idea of thousands of little cells either, when I first
looked at the Tesla design.

The key word here is "availability", not MTBF, or reliability. The Tesla
battery can withstand many single point failures without affecting
performance or operation of the car, therefore the car remains available
in spite of failures.  Individual Tesla cells are also fused which reduces
fire danger. Single point failures in large format batteries cause greater
percentage degradation per failure.

I had a career in public transportation and availability of rolling stock
is a very important aspect of any fleet of buses.








> Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..
>
> There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers
> of
> single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla battery
> with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
> the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...
>
> Bob
>
>
>  On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>  Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is
> they're
> the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an
> onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
> complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports
> gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
> reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a
> battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.
> I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
> versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
> bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for
> reliability
> reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
> Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181009/f8a47d14/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Readings of the owners forums indicate that complete battery failures on
Teslas are quite rare. They have a good redundancy model of parallel cells
within a module, with 14-16 large modules that are in series to provide
350-400v DC, and thermal regulation.

There are issues, however:

-diagnostics software is unavailable to people outside of Tesla (except
maybe in Massachusetts which has a right to repair law). This software is
needed to perform certain diagnostics and repairs. It is akin to Toyota
Techstream being required to fix certain errors on modern Toyotas.
(Techstream, in contrast, is available to third parties across the world.)
This is a fairly closed ecosystem.

-limited parts availability (a growing pains issue, that in some cases is
made worse by not having multiple distributors or aftermarket parts to
choose from).

-Supercharger access can be remotely disabled after purchase. This is known
to have happened for cars that have been in accidents (however big or
small, whether just cosmetic only or not) where Tesla hasn't been engaged
and paid to reinspect and repair the car.

-firmware cannot be reverted to earlier versions in case of issues or
preferences for earlier feature sets (at least, reversion cannot be done by
regular owners, and isn't something Service Centers can do either.
Supposedly only corporate engineers can do it.)

-door handles on Model S are now at a 3rd revision. Maybe Tesla will find a
solution that reduces electromechanical complexity using what they've
learned with X and 3.

-MCU memory storage wear, possibly due to excessive log writes in early
firmware. Supposed to be reduced in recent firmware.

-MCU bubbles and adhesive dripping issues on earlier model years.

-MCU yellowing on the left and right sides, most noticeable with a white
background, on both S and X, and reported on both MCU1 and MCU2. This is
mostly a cosmetic issue.

-12v battery life may vary. Some reports indicate suboptimal charging
voltages and frequency. Some owners have added battery maintainers. Cars
with 100 kWh packs are reported to have a dedicated 12v feed direct from
the main pack that reduces load on the 12v battery.

-reports of control arm issues on earlier model years (ball joint corrosion
and cracking). Corrosion may be worse in some climates and road treatment
conditions.

-unclear what will happen for owners in cases of greater than average
battery degradation (but not outright failure) (this seems unusual in
general but there is evidence that some '90' packs are losing capacity
faster than normal.) '90' packs have gone through several revisions. The
'90' packs are reported to include silicon in the cell chemistry.

-discrepancies in advertised capacity vs actual capacity. '90' packs store
less than 90 kWh. '100' packs store over 100 kWh. The '100' pack has a lot
more range than the '90'; more than the basic numerical difference would
suggest.

-unclear what will happen for owners who have paid for FSD/full self
driving capability, if it turns out the car sensor hardware cannot support
it, even after upgrading the Autopilot computer to say AP3. (The AP3
computer is currently under development.) The answer may be different for
customers who included the capability with their original order, on the
Monroney label vs those who enabled it post-delivery. The AP2 sensor
hardware on cars sold to customers starting in late 2016 was advertised as
being FSD-ready.



On Mon, Oct 8, 2018, 20:12 George E Swartz via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I didn't like the idea of thousands of little cells either, when I first
> looked at the Tesla design.
>
> The key word here is "availability", not MTBF, or reliability. The Tesla
> battery can withstand many single point failures without affecting
> performance or operation of the car, therefore the car remains available
> in spite of failures.  Individual Tesla cells are also fused which reduces
> fire danger. Single point failures in large format batteries cause greater
> percentage degradation per failure.
>
> I had a career in public transportation and availability of rolling stock
> is a very important aspect of any fleet of buses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..
> >
> > There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers
> > of
> > single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla
> battery
> > with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
> > the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >  On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV
> > <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >  Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is
> > they're
> > the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in
> an
> > onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
> > complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer
> Reports
> > gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
> > reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for
> a
> > battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey
> car.
> > I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
> > versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
> > bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for
> > reliability
> > reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
> > Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181009/f8a47d14/attachment.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181008/57982813/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I guess safety is also included in the 'surveillance' electronics that are
incorporated in a Tesla...

https://jalopnik.com/how-tesla-made-the-model-3-so-safe-1829610576
and
https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-xs-sand-rollover-test-is-fascinating-182620
7350

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV.com





_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 9 Oct 2018 at 0:28, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions
> of transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the
> bipolar transistor! 

I'm not an engineer, so correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I don't
think it's quite the same.  The microcontroller has lots of semiconductors,
but they're all formed at one go on one substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells
are individual units, manufactured individually, with individually welded (I
think) connections.  

I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction -- which
IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less publicity and far lower
production numbers.  I believe the T-Zero Roadster was one of them.  

However, in the real world, they seem to get better results than I expected.
Bravo for them.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It’s called sarcasm!

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 10, 2018, at 8:38 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 9 Oct 2018 at 0:28, Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>
>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions
>> of transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the
>> bipolar transistor!  
>
> I'm not an engineer, so correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I don't
> think it's quite the same.  The microcontroller has lots of semiconductors,
> but they're all formed at one go on one substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells
> are individual units, manufactured individually, with individually welded (I
> think) connections.  
>
> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction -- which
> IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less publicity and far lower
> production numbers.  I believe the T-Zero Roadster was one of them.  
>
> However, in the real world, they seem to get better results than I expected.
> Bravo for them.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.  
>>
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them.  

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm!

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are "identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; but usually win out in the end.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Perhaps a simple solution is to figure how to carefully control 2,000,000,000 (2 billion) 18650's and 2170's Li batteries with excellent microcontrollers for temp, charge/discharge, etc. by putting them into, so far, 250,000 individual vehicles that _all_ are monitored in _surreal_ time by the mothership in real world conditions, beta testing in real world, that seems to point to small individual monitored cells better, prismatic and pouch cells, not so good.Remember betamax vs VHS?VHS won because they overwhelmed competition.Also, Tesla, just in 2018, used over 84% of Li batteries thru September for 100% EV's(100,000 model 3's so far)

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
 
  On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart via EV<[hidden email]> wrote:   Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections. 
>>
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them. 

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm!

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are "identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; but usually win out in the end.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181013/ca6e2205/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I would also suggest the simpler solutions are winning out.Look at PV and micro and nanogrids and DER's (distributed Energy) and nascent VPP'sVery robust failure modes.Many point source power generatorsWhy transmit electrons miles when 50 ft or less will do.If 1-2 18650's or 2170's fail or "get weird" no big deal.If 1-2 pouch or prismatic's get funky, big deal
But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller numb

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; but usually win out i

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181013/094e06a7/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Now that I have calmed down and thought about everything I now realize that what we have been doing for decades in car culture terms is restomoding.  A restomod is a vehicle that has been restored and modified.  Example: A 350 Chevy in a Mustang.  Distained by some in the car community but functional and exciting for the owner. . One of the best in the electric vehicle community was John Wayland.  Blue Meanie comes to mind.  Well engineered, a practical one shot EV which he eventually got to a hundred mile range.  However John had to go to great lengths to quickly charge Meanie.  No way it is coming down the coast to California quickly.  No fast charger. However if the vehicle is light and the pack is small it might be possible to quickly charge using J1772. But I digress slightly. After having a few factory EVs I can confidently say that no one I know can even come close to that kind of performance the way we have been doing our builds. Level 3 charging.  I can take a 24 kw Leaf from San Diego to San Francisco. So the future of our restomoding will be taking factory EV parts and using them because like one EV expert said: "We take advantage of the millions of dollars of engineering that goes into a vehicle for our platforms.  Now we will take EV drive trains and put them in vehicles of our choice.  Or with out the fuss simply buy a Tesla III because it is simply the best car ever engineered. None of us could build that in our garage.  Just don't total it and expect to drive it again.  That's what insurance is for.  Lawrence Rhodes.. happy with my 24 and 30 kw Leafs...goodnuf for now.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181017/265a81c7/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)