a nickel of my time

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a nickel of my time

fred ungewitter
Many moons ago, back in the early days of the Zap Xebra, I discovered a web site (URL now forgotten, but still active) in which fellow EVers could list their availability for charging. As a show of support, I installed an RV outlet for 220v and a couple of 110v outlets. RV outlets are permitted easily, but NEMA 15-40 outlets are a bit more difficult for EV charging purposes! In the five years since, not a single soul has requested use of my power source.

If more EVers were aware of this utility and made use of it, perhaps this nickel "theft" would no longer be an issue.

fred
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Re: a nickel of my time

Cor van de Water
In my previous home I had an electric stove with a NEMA10-50 connection.
This is the older version of what now is upgraded to 14-50 (240V 50A
4-prong) while the 10-50 is 3-prong (240V only, no Neutral so no 120V)
I also bought 20 ft of 6 Gauge wire and 10-50 plug and socket, to bring
the stove outlet to the driveway. About $50 total but in the 4 years
that I lived there, it was used only once.
I think that the problem is that those outlets are not guaranteed to be
available (I had to roll out the extension cord) so EV'ers might not
take the chance, while if there is a charger on the public street, then
you can be quite sure that it is accessible (though it may be in use -
for that reason the status can be queried online). I have a JiuceBox
lying in my garage, unfortunately there is no parking anywhere  near my
house except in the garage, so that does not make public charging
feasible even if I wanted.

I'll install it in my garage to allow me to "fast"-charge and I will
some day also promote to install one of my chargers at work.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of fred
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 6:49 PM
To: EV DL
Subject: [EVDL] a nickel of my time

Many moons ago, back in the early days of the Zap Xebra, I discovered a
web site (URL now forgotten, but still active) in which fellow EVers
could list their availability for charging. As a show of support, I
installed an RV outlet for 220v and a couple of 110v outlets. RV outlets
are permitted easily, but NEMA 15-40 outlets are a bit more difficult
for EV charging purposes! In the five years since, not a single soul has
requested use of my power source.

If more EVers were aware of this utility and made use of it, perhaps
this nickel "theft" would no longer be an issue.

fred
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Re: a nickel of my time

Thos True
In reply to this post by fred ungewitter
Fred, I do not believe that the owner of the EV would have opted for
charging at your place, my place or my Dad's place (all of which have 20A
and larger (up to 50A) outlets available for charging upon request. After
reading more about the individual in Georgia, I am more and more inclined
to think that his intent was to take as much as he could from the facility,
since he was previously asked to not use the tennis courts (apparently due
to his obstructing a phys ed class' use of the court), and his claim that
the "lessons" were for his son (who does not seem to have even been playing
at the time (although he was)). His approach (according to reports of the
officer's video) was one of arrogance and intimidation.
For all the attention that the case has raised, it seems, sadly, that the
most notable fact is that the owner of the EV was an arrogant jerk, and is
in no fashion a poster child for the EV movement.
-Tom


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:48 PM, fred <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Many moons ago, back in the early days of the Zap Xebra, I discovered a
> web site (URL now forgotten, but still active) in which fellow EVers could
> list their availability for charging. As a show of support, I installed an
> RV outlet for 220v and a couple of 110v outlets. RV outlets are permitted
> easily, but NEMA 15-40 outlets are a bit more difficult for EV charging
> purposes! In the five years since, not a single soul has requested use of
> my power source.
>
> If more EVers were aware of this utility and made use of it, perhaps this
> nickel "theft" would no longer be an issue.
>
> fred
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>
>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: a nickel of my time

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
On 7 Dec 2013 at 23:51, Cor van de Water wrote:

> the 10-50 is 3-prong (240V only, no Neutral so no 120V)

However, many, perhaps most, electric stoves DID use the combined ground and
neutral for a 120 volt tap.  This wasn't really very safe.

I've read that this odd situation - a 3 wire feed to stove and electric
clothes dryer receptacles, with neutral and ground combined - was permitted
during the second world war in an effort to save copper.  Dryers often drove
the drum light from the 120v tap, and many times the motor too.  Stoves used
it for indicator lights, oven lights, and panel lights.

The code allowing this wasn't changed until the late 20th century (I don't
recall the exact date).  

Existing installations are grandfathered, but if you make any changes, code
requires that you update to a 4-wire (separate neutral and ground) feed and
4-pin receptacle.  But if you already have a 3-pin dryer, range, or welder
receptacle in your garage, it's fine to charge your EV from one of these 3-
pin receptaces as long as your charger is 240 volts only.  

As for whether I'd use it for charging I shared with the public - well,
maybe not.  But then with the legal situation what it is today, I might
think twice about allowing strangers to charge on my property regardless.  I
know it sounds uncharitable, but I'd hate to get sued if somebody got
shocked or injured using my 14-50 or whatever receptacle to charge his EV.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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plugshare.com : a nickel of my time

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by fred ungewitter
To share your private power, use
http://plugshare.com
to list any personal charging you want to make available. plugshare
membership is free and required to see the private EVSE locations.

Note: recargo acquired plugshare, but they have not melded the two
databases, and recargo's website interface has not been fixed (I assume
they are more app interested). But plugshare works fine for either
website or app access. The Fed Gov website has more GA charging
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/results?utf8=%E2%9C%93&location=georgia&filtered=true&fuel=ELEC&private=true&owner=all&payment=all&ev_level1=true&ev_level2=true&ev_dc_fast=true&radius=true&radius_miles=50
They also offer an app (look at the bottom of the page).

I recommend that you read how other private charging listing are
written. Some wisely state 'must be prearranged'.
Also, stating the contact method and hours of operation, to minimize
disruption to your personal life.


An "RV" outlet (TT-30) does not offer 220VAC
http://www.myrv.us/electric/Pg/30amp_Service.htm
It offers 120VAC 30A

Typically, an RV park would have a TT-30 (120VAC 30Amp) outlet
http://images.fruitridgetools.com/Images/CW1263-BOX-EA-2.JPG
and a 5-20 (120VAC 20A) outlet
http://images.fruitridgetools.com/Images/L8310-I-EA-NOBOX-2.JPG

If your RV stanchion has a dual/duplex 5-20 outlet
http://internationalconfig.com/prod_shot/5342-i.jpg
I recommend that you break the tab that interconnects the two outlets,
and wire each of  them to have their own 120VAC 20A breaker.

Not all, but the better RV parks have a 14-50 (120/240VAC 50A) outlet
http://www.stayonline.com/images/products_240x240/8694.jpg

Unless you have an RV that you use the RV TT-30 outlet for, it would be
wiser to remove the RV TT-30 outlet, and replace it with an outlet that
would more useful to plugins, like a 6-20
http://images.fruitridgetools.com/Images/L5821-I-EA-NOBOX-1.JPG
and not useful to moochers that can come and squat in the plugin parking
space, blocking charging access.
Where I live, that is a problem: people who live in RVs that push the
legality/trespassing/theft laws and plug in where ever an
unguarded/unprotected outlet can be found.


There is a need for plugins to access level-1 (120VAC 1.3kW) and level-2
(120VAC 20A 3kW) power.
Examples, there is no charging at the driver's work and or no charging
at their home (i.e.: rented room, apt, condo, etc.).
What better time to do a long slow charge than while at work, or when
sleeping?

Plug-in-hybrids (phev/pih) have smallish ~30 mile packs, so charging at
level-1 is fine. And for EVs and nEVs that do not need to go far,
level-1 charging will regain the miles needed to return home.

level-2 (240VAC 20A 3kW) power is much more desirable as it will
recharge a ~75 mile (~24kWh) EV pack while at work or overnight. It also
matches the kW charging capability of most lower cost EV trim models.
This charging is for driver's that will need close to a full charge to
return home.


{brucedp.150m.com}




-
On Sat, Dec 7, 2013, at 06:48 PM, fred wrote:
> Many moons ago, back in the early days of the Zap Xebra, I discovered a
> web site (URL now forgotten, but still active) in which fellow EVers
> could list their availability for charging. As a show of support, I
> installed an RV outlet for 220v and a couple of 110v outlets. RV outlets
> are permitted easily, but NEMA 15-40 outlets are a bit more difficult for
> EV charging purposes! In the five years since, not a single soul has
> requested use of my power source.
>
> If more EVers were aware of this utility and made use of it, perhaps this
> nickel "theft" would no longer be an issue.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
                          love email again

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Re: a nickel of my time

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Two side-notes regarding Neutral wiring:
1. The J1772 plug or charger does not use Neutral at all, many chargers
either do not have a Neutral wire connector (so, all you are left to do
is to snip off the Neutral wire from the 4-wire cord when connecting up
the charger, really not any difference from having a 10-50 outlet and a
3-wire cord, or you can do the following:
2. When I opened my electric dryer after swapping it for a natural gas
heated dryer (to reduce electric load so more of my home charging falls
into the baseline tariff) I noticed that the ground and Neutral wires
were connected together inside the dryer. This was not a mis-wiring, as
the factory wiring was designed to connect the ground and Neutral
together.
I was under the impression that nowhere in the electric system should
ground and Neutral be bonded together, except at the service entrance.
Yet, as long as the dryer was plugged in, it would provide that
connection.
Strange...

Indeed, the NEMA 10-30 (dryer) and 10-50 (stove) outlets had only ground
and 2x phase, but appliances were running light loads between one phase
and the ground. Clearly defeating the whole purpose of the ground
wire...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 12:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] a nickel of my time

On 7 Dec 2013 at 23:51, Cor van de Water wrote:

> the 10-50 is 3-prong (240V only, no Neutral so no 120V)

However, many, perhaps most, electric stoves DID use the combined ground
and
neutral for a 120 volt tap.  This wasn't really very safe.

I've read that this odd situation - a 3 wire feed to stove and electric
clothes dryer receptacles, with neutral and ground combined - was
permitted
during the second world war in an effort to save copper.  Dryers often
drove
the drum light from the 120v tap, and many times the motor too.  Stoves
used
it for indicator lights, oven lights, and panel lights.

The code allowing this wasn't changed until the late 20th century (I
don't
recall the exact date).  

Existing installations are grandfathered, but if you make any changes,
code
requires that you update to a 4-wire (separate neutral and ground) feed
and
4-pin receptacle.  But if you already have a 3-pin dryer, range, or
welder
receptacle in your garage, it's fine to charge your EV from one of these
3-
pin receptaces as long as your charger is 240 volts only.  

As for whether I'd use it for charging I shared with the public - well,
maybe not.  But then with the legal situation what it is today, I might
think twice about allowing strangers to charge on my property
regardless.  I
know it sounds uncharitable, but I'd hate to get sued if somebody got
shocked or injured using my 14-50 or whatever receptacle to charge his
EV.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: a nickel of my time

Lee Hart
Cor van de Water wrote:
> 2. When I opened my electric dryer after swapping it for a natural gas
> heated dryer... I noticed that the ground and Neutral wires
> were connected together inside the dryer. This was not a mis-wiring, as
> the factory wiring was designed to connect the ground and Neutral
> together... Strange...

In theory, the NEC, UL, and other safety regulatory agencies make
decisions based on sound engineering and safety. In practice, they are
as political and bribe-able as anyone else.

When I worked for Robertshaw and was much closer to the regulatory
process (they had employees on the regulatory boards) I saw clear cases
where the regulations were "bent" to favor things that industry wanted
to do to save money.

Ask yourself why toasters only have 2-wire cords, have exposed
un-grounded metal parts, and you can easily touch the "live" heating
wires and be burned or shocked. They are often used by children, and
start hundreds of house fires every year. Yet they all get UL listed.
None of this would be allowed in anything else!
--
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
         -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart -- See my Xmas projects at www.sunrise-ev.com/projects.htm
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