annoying noise in my motor

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
20 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

annoying noise in my motor

jonglauser
Hello everyone,
  I've finally become bothered enough by a noise in my motor to seek
advise. It only happens when little to negative torque is applied, as
in when I let up the accelerator and when I decelerate. It's a high
pitched whine kind of sound. It seems to be independent of RPM, it
always happens. It is more noticeable at lower RPM, probably because
there is less noise to drown it out. It is quite loud.
  I suspect it could be the shaft coupler (direct couple to manual
transmission), one of the motor bearings, or the brushes. Does anyone
have any ideas?


-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Roland Wiench
Hello Jon,

It is normal for a differential, drive line, transmission tail shaft,
transmission pilot shaft to compress every time you let up on the
accelerator.

Because of this effect, a clearance is set to a certain amount in the drive
line yoke that plugs into the transmission tail shaft.  This clearance may
range from 1/2 inch to 1 inch while the vehicle is on grade when the drive
line reduces in angle.

The transmission pilot shaft nose that normally goes into the pilot bearing
of a crank shaft should have a clearance of 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch.

In auto transmission the flex wheel allows for this clearance, that why it
is call a flex wheel.

Check all these drive points to make sure you have all these clearances.  If
any one of these drive points are tight, then you could have either the
transmission seals butted up tight to the driveline yoke, or transmission
input shaft is too tight which presses up against the motor shaft coupler
and bearings.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Glauser" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:59 AM
Subject: [EVDL] annoying noise in my motor


> Hello everyone,
>   I've finally become bothered enough by a noise in my motor to seek
> advise. It only happens when little to negative torque is applied, as
> in when I let up the accelerator and when I decelerate. It's a high
> pitched whine kind of sound. It seems to be independent of RPM, it
> always happens. It is more noticeable at lower RPM, probably because
> there is less noise to drown it out. It is quite loud.
>   I suspect it could be the shaft coupler (direct couple to manual
> transmission), one of the motor bearings, or the brushes. Does anyone
> have any ideas?
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Maybe put it up on blocks, and check it out with your head near the  
motor. It could be the coupler, motor, or transmission.

On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Jon Glauser <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>  I've finally become bothered enough by a noise in my motor to seek
> advise. It only happens when little to negative torque is applied, as
> in when I let up the accelerator and when I decelerate. It's a high
> pitched whine kind of sound. It seems to be independent of RPM, it
> always happens. It is more noticeable at lower RPM, probably because
> there is less noise to drown it out. It is quite loud.
>  I suspect it could be the shaft coupler (direct couple to manual
> transmission), one of the motor bearings, or the brushes. Does anyone
> have any ideas?
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

mark at evie-systems
Check it with one of these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41966
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
mark@evie-systems.com
"Delay is preferable to error", Thomas Jefferson.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

jonglauser
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Thanks to everyone making suggestions!

I havent touched the transmission bolts, so I would think it's not the
driveline yoke. It is a pretty non-standard transmission, 4 wheel
drive - normally front wheel drive. The motor is mounted on an
extension adapter to get it where it will fit. The shaft coupler is
about 7" long and hollow, so I doubt the pilot bearing is touching
anything. I think I'll have to use a stethoscope to hunt it down. It
could be the splines on the coupler are not aligned perfectly, or a
bad bearing.
  I know it's not the PWM, I've heard that noise before and this only
happens when I'm NOT applying power. This is more of a metallic
scraping/squeaking sound, which is why I included the brushes in my
original guess. I dont think it's the transmission. I never drove it
as a gasser, but the tranny and motor are separated enough I can tell
it's outside the transmission.

Thanks again. I'll find it eventually and I'll report what I find!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

jonglauser
I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
force went into wearing the splines off.

The worn shaft coupler splines:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink

Options are: put the clutch back in (get a new one, the old one
destroyed itself). Make a new adapter every 6 months. Weld the shafts
together.

Since I dont like my car much, and there are several other problems,
and I dont have money to do it "right"... I'm going to weld the
splines together. I can do this because of my unique motor mounting
and coupler. I plan on getting a small truck to convert this year
anyway, so a temporary fix will work for me.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y8sgumGbccWtUUxxHLkOkw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n8nzkIjotjmyyxTX_dPpIg?feat=directlink



-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Hello Jon,

The transmission pilot shaft needs to float back and forth a bit in the
spline coupler.  My specs for my transmission spline coupler needs to float
about 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch.

When using a clutch disk, the spline in the disk is allow to move on this
spline.  The nose of the transmission pilot shaft must have at least 1/8
clearance when it is inserted into the pilot shaft bearing in either the
motor coupler or crankshaft of a engine.

Back in 2002 I completely redesign the motor bay compartment, where I can
drop the motor and transmission out from below the vehicle by the use of a
floor jack with two curve padded saddle mounts I made out of a 12 inch steel
tubing that cradles the motor and transmission.

I modified the cross members where they can be un bolted from the side rails
and drop the whole works down.  Nothing has to be remove in the motor may
except for the wires going to the motor.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Glauser" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] annoying noise in my motor


> I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
> wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
> caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
> clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
> force went into wearing the splines off.
>
> The worn shaft coupler splines:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>
> Options are: put the clutch back in (get a new one, the old one
> destroyed itself). Make a new adapter every 6 months. Weld the shafts
> together.
>
> Since I dont like my car much, and there are several other problems,
> and I dont have money to do it "right"... I'm going to weld the
> splines together. I can do this because of my unique motor mounting
> and coupler. I plan on getting a small truck to convert this year
> anyway, so a temporary fix will work for me.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y8sgumGbccWtUUxxHLkOkw?feat=directlink
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n8nzkIjotjmyyxTX_dPpIg?feat=directlink
>
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Hi Jon,

I have just a little information to go by here, but my guess is that what you see is fretting corrosion caused by misalignment.  I don't buy his impulse theory.  Previously the clutch may have been acting like a flexible coupler.  If you weld up something to correct it and put it back together the same way, you will just transfer the problem, not eliminate it.  

Just my opinion,

Jeff M

--- On Sat, 3/13/10, Jon Glauser <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I've taken it all apart and figured
> out whats going on. The coupler is
> wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've
> decided it's
> caused by the extra torque and impulses of the
> transmission. With the
> clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the
> clutch, all the
> force went into wearing the splines off.
>
> The worn shaft coupler splines:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>



     

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Stephen Chapman
I agree completely with this assessment, this wear is due to misalignment.
There are no "impulses" generated in the helical gears used in a modern
transmission and the torque from a motor is extremely smooth compare to an
ICE.  The square sae spline used on the transmission input shaft is
hardened.  If you weld in the hardened area, it will likely crack.

Stephen Chapman

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Jeff Major <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jon,
>
> I have just a little information to go by here, but my guess is that what
> you see is fretting corrosion caused by misalignment.  I don't buy his
> impulse theory.  Previously the clutch may have been acting like a flexible
> coupler.  If you weld up something to correct it and put it back together
> the same way, you will just transfer the problem, not eliminate it.
>
> Just my opinion,
>
> Jeff M
>
> --- On Sat, 3/13/10, Jon Glauser <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I've taken it all apart and figured
> > out whats going on. The coupler is
> > wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've
> > decided it's
> > caused by the extra torque and impulses of the
> > transmission. With the
> > clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the
> > clutch, all the
> > force went into wearing the splines off.
> >
> > The worn shaft coupler splines:
> >
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100313/7faa8163/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Morgan LaMoore
There are significant impulses in an EV - the EV's instant throttle
response means that whenever you engage throttle from a stop, the huge
low-end torque will accelerate the motor causing it to impact against
the gears.

Of course, this depends on how quickly the controller ramps up the
current and how much backlash is in your gears.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Stephen Chapman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree completely with this assessment, this wear is due to misalignment.
> There are no "impulses" generated in the helical gears used in a modern
> transmission and the torque from a motor is extremely smooth compare to an
> ICE.  The square sae spline used on the transmission input shaft is
> hardened.  If you weld in the hardened area, it will likely crack.
>
> Stephen Chapman
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

EVDL Administrator
On 14 Mar 2010 at 1:03, Morgan LaMoore wrote:

> There are significant impulses in an EV

I'm no expert on this, but we've had many discussions here over the years
about the pros and cons of eliminating the clutch.  One point that's made
maybe too infrequently is that the clutch springs (and torque converter in a
slushbox car) perform a shock absorption function, and this should be
replaced by some kind of equivalent device if the clutch or TC is dumped in
conversion.

The shock of concern is not that of acceleration, but rather the shock
transmitted through the driveline from the road.  Every chuckhole, every
stone, every curb you hit - they all send torque shocks back through the
driveline as the wheel loses contact and traction, then abruptly regains
them.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the sole cause of the excessive spline
wear shown in the photo, but it could certainly have contributed to it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" an "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Jon,

Just do it like this (see photo at 23/02/09, 18th one down) ...

http://www.winlow.co.uk/html/ev_conversion.html

... and you wont get that problem but still have a fairly simple and  
cheap coupler solution.  It's just a cut down friction plate from the  
clutch (buying one new or used should be cheap and easy - even a badly  
worn one) mounted to a taper-lock hub via an adapter ring.  The key is  
keeping those springs in the driven plate which absorb all those drive-
line shocks.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


On 13 Mar 2010, at 21:43, Jon Glauser wrote:

> I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
> wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
> caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
> clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
> force went into wearing the splines off.
>
> The worn shaft coupler splines:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>
> Options are: put the clutch back in (get a new one, the old one
> destroyed itself). Make a new adapter every 6 months. Weld the shafts
> together.
>
> Since I dont like my car much, and there are several other problems,
> and I dont have money to do it "right"... I'm going to weld the
> splines together. I can do this because of my unique motor mounting
> and coupler. I plan on getting a small truck to convert this year
> anyway, so a temporary fix will work for me.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y8sgumGbccWtUUxxHLkOkw?feat=directlink
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n8nzkIjotjmyyxTX_dPpIg?feat=directlink
>
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100314/da1ffb86/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

You need a "guibo"! (was: annoying noise in my motor)

Bill Dube
This is exactly correct. Large torque spikes come _up_ the drivetrain
in the opposite direction than normal, from the road. When you go
over a pothole, the tire decelerates quickly, stops, then accelerates
quickly (almost instantly) as it comes back out again. If there is
not a complaint ("springy") element in the drive line, then the
torque spike is enormous from this.

         Fatigue failure is caused by repeated brief torque spikes.
It won't happen the first day, but will happen after, say, 50 pothole
crossings. It is like bending a coat hanger in half. You can do it
once and it won't break, but if you bend it in half ten times it will
break in two.

         There is a compliant element in every commercial
highway-capable vehicle. They won't make 20,000 miles without one.
BMW cars have the rubber "guibo" on the tail of the transmission
(pronounced "gweebo".) Motorcycles have that rubber thing in the rear
hub. Cars have a loooong drive shaft and the springs in the center of
the clutch. Tesla transmissions had no compliant element, so they
failed routinely.

         Basically, you need to have a "guibo" in the driveline to
soak up the torque pulses that come from potholes, etc.

Bill Dube'

At 04:51 AM 3/14/2010, you wrote:

>Jon,
>
>Just do it like this (see photo at 23/02/09, 18th one down) ...
>
>http://www.winlow.co.uk/html/ev_conversion.html
>
>... and you wont get that problem but still have a fairly simple and
>cheap coupler solution.  It's just a cut down friction plate from the
>clutch (buying one new or used should be cheap and easy - even a badly
>worn one) mounted to a taper-lock hub via an adapter ring.  The key is
>keeping those springs in the driven plate which absorb all those drive-
>line shocks.
>
>Regards, Martin Winlow
>Herts, UK
>http://www.evalbum.com/2092
>www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>On 13 Mar 2010, at 21:43, Jon Glauser wrote:
>
> > I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
> > wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
> > caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
> > clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
> > force went into wearing the splines off.
> >
> > The worn shaft coupler splines:
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
> >
> >

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by jonglauser
If it was the torque impulses, I would think the metal is deformed but
not worn away. Afterall there is no place for it to go.
If however the two halfs are not concentric then every rotation creates
a sliding contact and that can cause wear.
Multiply that times the 1000's of rotations and that would be the wear
you see.
The clutch adds floating center and thus minimizes this.
Now torque may still be the culprit if the item is weak and deflects
under load
The other possible problem is that most tranny's only constrain the
input shaft from being pushed in and rely on the clutch or the sholder
on the plot pushing to kep the shaft seated. A thru hole could allow the
shaft to move fore and aft turning it into a cutting tool.

I think the adapters that use an old clutch disk help minimize this also.

Can you provide a few links to specific pictures of your adapter?

> I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
> wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
> caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
> clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
> force went into wearing the splines off.
>
> The worn shaft coupler splines:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>
> Options are: put the clutch back in (get a new one, the old one
> destroyed itself). Make a new adapter every 6 months. Weld the shafts
> together.
>
> Since I dont like my car much, and there are several other problems,
> and I dont have money to do it "right"... I'm going to weld the
> splines together. I can do this because of my unique motor mounting
> and coupler. I plan on getting a small truck to convert this year
> anyway, so a temporary fix will work for me.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y8sgumGbccWtUUxxHLkOkw?feat=directlink
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n8nzkIjotjmyyxTX_dPpIg?feat=directlink
>
>
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
>
>  

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Just a thought, You do have a pilot bushing, correct ?

If not this will result, Never locate on a spline. (or a bolt)
A spline is NOT a gear It is designed to transfer the force but no
sliding contact.
If you don't hold it in double shear, this type of wear is probable.

> There are significant impulses in an EV - the EV's instant throttle
> response means that whenever you engage throttle from a stop, the huge
> low-end torque will accelerate the motor causing it to impact against
> the gears.
>
> Of course, this depends on how quickly the controller ramps up the
> current and how much backlash is in your gears.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Stephen Chapman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> >
>> > I agree completely with this assessment, this wear is due to misalignment.
>> > There are no "impulses" generated in the helical gears used in a modern
>> > transmission and the torque from a motor is extremely smooth compare to an
>> > ICE.  The square sae spline used on the transmission input shaft is
>> > hardened.  If you weld in the hardened area, it will likely crack.
>> >
>> > Stephen Chapman
>> >
>>    
>
>
>  

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Peter Gabrielsson
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
looks strangely familiar...

http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/213


On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jon,
>
> Just do it like this (see photo at 23/02/09, 18th one down) ...
>
> http://www.winlow.co.uk/html/ev_conversion.html
>
> ... and you wont get that problem but still have a fairly simple and
> cheap coupler solution.  It's just a cut down friction plate from the
> clutch (buying one new or used should be cheap and easy - even a badly
> worn one) mounted to a taper-lock hub via an adapter ring.  The key is
> keeping those springs in the driven plate which absorb all those drive-
> line shocks.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
> On 13 Mar 2010, at 21:43, Jon Glauser wrote:
>
>> I've taken it all apart and figured out whats going on. The coupler is
>> wearing itself out. Consulting with my mechanic, we've decided it's
>> caused by the extra torque and impulses of the transmission. With the
>> clutch, it absorbed the shocks. After I took out the clutch, all the
>> force went into wearing the splines off.
>>
>> The worn shaft coupler splines:
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>>
>> Options are: put the clutch back in (get a new one, the old one
>> destroyed itself). Make a new adapter every 6 months. Weld the shafts
>> together.
>>
>> Since I dont like my car much, and there are several other problems,
>> and I dont have money to do it "right"... I'm going to weld the
>> splines together. I can do this because of my unique motor mounting
>> and coupler. I plan on getting a small truck to convert this year
>> anyway, so a temporary fix will work for me.
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y8sgumGbccWtUUxxHLkOkw?feat=directlink
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n8nzkIjotjmyyxTX_dPpIg?feat=directlink
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jon Glauser
>> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
>> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100314/da1ffb86/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
www.electric-lemon.com

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: You need a "guibo"! (was: annoying noise in my motor)

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by Bill Dube

--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Fatigue failure is caused by repeated brief torque spikes.
>

Hi Bill,

So you're saying this is a fatigue failure?

The worn shaft coupler splines:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink

I don't think so.

Jeff M



     

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: annoying noise in my motor

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by jonglauser
Jon,                                               (Originally sent 14 hours
ago.)
 I know this has been a difficult problem for you but my machinist and other
mechanical experience gives me Questions and I would greatly appreciate it
if you would answer a few:   Were the splines in the coupling lubricated?
  Were the splines in the adapter and the splines on the motor shaft aligned
to ZERO (Perfectly aligned)?   When you removed the clutch, and assembled
the splined connection did it slide easily on or did you have to drive or
press with considerable force to mesh them?  If the splined coupling area
was easy to slide together was grease put on the connection coating all the
internal contact area of the splines?
 Your picture shows worn splines like a loose and UN-lubricated connection.
Have you considered that as a possibility?  also a misalignment which is
absorbed by the splines connection will wear quickly even if it only
"Wiggles" a tiny bit! (0.0005 inch)
Remember a clutch disk is clamped to the flywheel at the motor end which
aligns it very well and the transmission input shaft which is splined into
the center of the disk is supported at both ends, by a bearing at the
transmission end and after passing thru the center of the clutch disk which
the splined connection the shaft passes thru and into a bronze bearing in
the precise center of the flywheel, also the disk "Floats" when
disengaged at idle and when shifting and all move as a unit when driving.
 Perhaps your shaft connector needs to be a lot shorter so the motor shaft
and transmission shaft almost touch and both the key-way end on the
transmission and the splined end to the motor need to be locked with several
setscrews to stop ALL motion in the join area. Then there will be no noise
and no wear. It almost goes without saying the motor will require
careful alignment to prevent bearing damage too!
Welding of a motor shaft or a transmission shaft is very difficult. even a 3
inch diameter drive shaft requires specialized equipment and I take those to
a drive shaft shop always! Smaller shafts are far more difficult!
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (New ! )
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
          EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100314/51b3fccd/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: You need a "guibo"! (was: annoying noise in my motor)

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Jeff Major
Jeff,

I see this coupler was welded together and is relatively small -  is  
it possible the heat from the welding annealed (softened) the steel  
splines too much?

I guess you could test its hardness with a file or try using a  
automatic centre punch on it and compare the size (depth) of resulting  
dimple with the same punch setting on an unaltered part - maybe a  
gearbox cog or something (I don't know what sort of junk you have  
lying around!).

Just a thought with a lateral twist...

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

On 15 Mar 2010, at 00:34, Jeff Major wrote:

>
> --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Fatigue failure is caused by repeated brief torque spikes.
>>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> So you're saying this is a fatigue failure?
>
> The worn shaft coupler splines:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mIMiUZ2SUwuSs6ffXBoOWg?feat=directlink
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: You need a "guibo"! (was: annoying noise in my motor)

jonglauser
Looks like something to do with my next conversion. This one however
is at end of life. My problem is having nothing in my budget to fix it
properly.

Thanks for the lead/info, I'll use it next time!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

_______________________________________________
General support: http://evdl.org/help/
Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev