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bad adapter

Ben Jarrett


Hey guys,

So I decided to ditch my clutchless adapter from www.evcouplerconnection.com since
I'm putting my clutch back in.  I was also concerned about alignment.

I took my tranny to the tranny shopt to have a different input shaft put on.
They called today and asked if I had a bad pilot bushing in my motor.  They noticed
uneven wear between the input and main shaft in the tranny that shows an alignment
issue.  

Well, I'm glad I decided to do this after 40 miles.  I'm hoping I didn't do any
bad damage to the warp 9.  It sounds fine up to 5000 RPM.  I'm guessing the
needle bearings in the tranny are the weak link.

So hopefully my new canev adapter will align correctly.

Thought I'd share this with others...

-ben

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Re: bad adapter

Roland Wiench
If a motor is a 9 inch or smaller, the pilot bearing is normally place into
the motor coupler because there is not enough inside diameter of the motor
coupler where the transmission pilot shaft to go all the way through and
insert into the a pilot bushing that is inserted into the output shaft of
the motor.

The standard pilot bushing will not fit into a Warp 9 output shaft unless it
is turn down and press fit into the shaft.  This pilot bushing is a cast
bronze oil bearing which is a porous cast which oil can saturated the whole
casting.

You let the bronze oil bearing soak in a 90 weight gear oil for a day or two
before installing.  Before inserting the transmission pilot shaft into this
pilot shaft bearing, pack it with a high temperature white bearing grease.

The transmission pilot shaft should not butt tight into the pilot shaft
bushing.  There should at least between 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch space
clearance.  This allows for the thrust movement while acceleration and
de-acceleration.

My WarP 11 and GE 11 motor allows to have the transmission pilot shaft to go
clear through the motor coupler and into the output shaft of the motor.
This allows to have a less thicker adapter plate then the WarP 9 motor.

In some flywheel, pressure plate, and through out bearing assembly kits,
some companies have been putting in a needle bearing pilot shaft bushing
with these assembly kits.  Many master mechanics will not use them and use a
cast oil bronze pilot bushing on transmission that has a floating pilot
shaft which will wear out these bearings very quickly.

In a non-floating pilot shaft, your alignment should be not more then 0.0001
of a inch.  This requires alignment pins to be install that matches the pin
holes in the transmission bell housing and in the adapter plate.  Also there
should be a alignment pin in the flywheel that is install between two
flywheel bolts that mate to the motor coupler which also should be drill for
this alignment pin.

In some flywheels, there is a recess in the flywheel that is semi-press fit
over a engine crank flange which center lines the flywheel.

Do not relied on the flywheel bolts and/or bell housing bolts to center the
transmission shaft to the motor shaft.  These bolts only have clearances
which will allow these two units to be 0.03 out of center line.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Jarrrett" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:41 PM
Subject: [EVDL] bad adapter


>
>
> Hey guys,
>
> So I decided to ditch my clutchless adapter from
> www.evcouplerconnection.com since
> I'm putting my clutch back in.  I was also concerned about alignment.
>
> I took my tranny to the tranny shopt to have a different input shaft put
> on.
> They called today and asked if I had a bad pilot bushing in my motor.
> They noticed
> uneven wear between the input and main shaft in the tranny that shows an
> alignment
> issue.
>
> Well, I'm glad I decided to do this after 40 miles.  I'm hoping I didn't
> do any
> bad damage to the warp 9.  It sounds fine up to 5000 RPM.  I'm guessing
> the
> needle bearings in the tranny are the weak link.
>
> So hopefully my new canev adapter will align correctly.
>
> Thought I'd share this with others...
>
> -ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>

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Re: bad adapter

Dave Hymers
This is probably a dumb question but how exactly do you tell if the adaptor
to transmission installation is up to 0.003" off? Where would you put the
calipers or depth gauge considering irregularities in the machining of the
bell housing and adapter plate? What kind of tool could be used?

Curious because most adaptors I assume are a less than perfect faximilie of
the trans bell face, mine is.
On Apr 30, 2012 3:01 PM, "Roland Wiench" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If a motor is a 9 inch or smaller, the pilot bearing is normally place into
> the motor coupler because there is not enough inside diameter of the motor
> coupler where the transmission pilot shaft to go all the way through and
> insert into the a pilot bushing that is inserted into the output shaft of
> the motor.
>
> The standard pilot bushing will not fit into a Warp 9 output shaft unless
> it
> is turn down and press fit into the shaft.  This pilot bushing is a cast
> bronze oil bearing which is a porous cast which oil can saturated the whole
> casting.
>
> You let the bronze oil bearing soak in a 90 weight gear oil for a day or
> two
> before installing.  Before inserting the transmission pilot shaft into this
> pilot shaft bearing, pack it with a high temperature white bearing grease.
>
> The transmission pilot shaft should not butt tight into the pilot shaft
> bushing.  There should at least between 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch space
> clearance.  This allows for the thrust movement while acceleration and
> de-acceleration.
>
> My WarP 11 and GE 11 motor allows to have the transmission pilot shaft to
> go
> clear through the motor coupler and into the output shaft of the motor.
> This allows to have a less thicker adapter plate then the WarP 9 motor.
>
> In some flywheel, pressure plate, and through out bearing assembly kits,
> some companies have been putting in a needle bearing pilot shaft bushing
> with these assembly kits.  Many master mechanics will not use them and use
> a
> cast oil bronze pilot bushing on transmission that has a floating pilot
> shaft which will wear out these bearings very quickly.
>
> In a non-floating pilot shaft, your alignment should be not more then
> 0.0001
> of a inch.  This requires alignment pins to be install that matches the pin
> holes in the transmission bell housing and in the adapter plate.  Also
> there
> should be a alignment pin in the flywheel that is install between two
> flywheel bolts that mate to the motor coupler which also should be drill
> for
> this alignment pin.
>
> In some flywheels, there is a recess in the flywheel that is semi-press fit
> over a engine crank flange which center lines the flywheel.
>
> Do not relied on the flywheel bolts and/or bell housing bolts to center the
> transmission shaft to the motor shaft.  These bolts only have clearances
> which will allow these two units to be 0.03 out of center line.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Jarrrett" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 1:41 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] bad adapter
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > So I decided to ditch my clutchless adapter from
> > www.evcouplerconnection.com since
> > I'm putting my clutch back in.  I was also concerned about alignment.
> >
> > I took my tranny to the tranny shopt to have a different input shaft put
> > on.
> > They called today and asked if I had a bad pilot bushing in my motor.
> > They noticed
> > uneven wear between the input and main shaft in the tranny that shows an
> > alignment
> > issue.
> >
> > Well, I'm glad I decided to do this after 40 miles.  I'm hoping I didn't
> > do any
> > bad damage to the warp 9.  It sounds fine up to 5000 RPM.  I'm guessing
> > the
> > needle bearings in the tranny are the weak link.
> >
> > So hopefully my new canev adapter will align correctly.
> >
> > Thought I'd share this with others...
> >
> > -ben
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> |
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Re: bad adapter

Danpatgal
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett
I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).  But, I've been a little on the fence because I think it will be more difficult to shift (even if I have to shift less often as I'm dumping 700 lbs to go lithium).  I guess alignment is more critical in a clutchless design ... what were some of your other reasons, or was it just this?
- Dan
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Re: bad adapter

Morgan LaMoore
I would go with the clutch just to shift more quickly and easily and
with less wear on the synchros.

That really depends on the transmission, though; some transmissions
work OK clutchless, while others really struggle.

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Danpatgal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in
> the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient
> setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in
> the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).  But, I've been a
> little on the fence because I think it will be more difficult to shift (even
> if I have to shift less often as I'm dumping 700 lbs to go lithium).  I
> guess alignment is more critical in a clutchless design ... what were some
> of your other reasons, or was it just this?
> - Dan

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Re: bad adapter

Willie2
In reply to this post by Danpatgal
On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 08:58:04AM -0700, Danpatgal wrote:
> I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in
> the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient
> setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in
> the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).  But, I've been a
> little on the fence because I think it will be more difficult to shift (even
> if I have to shift less often as I'm dumping 700 lbs to go lithium).  I
> guess alignment is more critical in a clutchless design ... what were some
> of your other reasons, or was it just this?

My Hyundai is without clutch and I was dissatisfied with it, a real
PITA to downshift.  It had both an air conditioner compressor and an
alternator driven off the tailshaft.  After removing those loads,
clutchless shifting is very manageable.  The only reason I would want a
clutch now is to enable faster shifting.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  42 days  7 hours 29 minutes

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Re: bad adapter

Mark Warner
In reply to this post by Danpatgal
Perhaps a dumb question, but how does a flywheel by itself generate noise?

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Danpatgal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in
> the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient
> setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in
> the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).
>
>
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Re: bad adapter

Ben Jarrett
In reply to this post by Danpatgal



My reason to go back to the clutch is mostly suburban drive-ability.  I could
upshift ok (1-2 seconds) when clutchless, but downshifting was a struggle.  I don't have
any other loads on the motor besides the transmission either.  I want
to be able to shift quicker and downshift without trying to rev match.

Also, the clutch does allow a mechanical disconnect in a panic environment.

I hate that I'm putting 50lbs back in (flywheel is over 20lbs, plus pressure
plate, disc, pedal, linkage, etc), but it's the right thing to do for me.

How is the flywheel making noise?  Are you talking about a bad throwout bearing
or pilot bushing/bearing?  Is it the starter ring (I had the machine shop
remove mine - saved me 2 lbs!).

-ben



On May 1, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Danpatgal wrote:

> I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in
> the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient
> setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in
> the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).  But, I've been a
> little on the fence because I think it will be more difficult to shift (even
> if I have to shift less often as I'm dumping 700 lbs to go lithium).  I
> guess alignment is more critical in a clutchless design ... what were some
> of your other reasons, or was it just this?
> - Dan
>
>
> -----
> Dan Gallagher
> http://www.evalbum.com/3854
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/bad-adapter-tp4599168p4601036.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: bad adapter

Nathan Loofbourrow
On May 1, 2012, at 3:40 PM, Ben Jarrrett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hate that I'm putting 50lbs back in (flywheel is over 20lbs, plus pressure
> plate, disc, pedal, linkage, etc), but it's the right thing to do for me.

How about an aluminum flywheel?

n


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Re: bad adapter

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett
On 5/1/2012 5:40 PM, Ben Jarrrett wrote:
> My reason to go back to the clutch is mostly suburban drive-ability.  I could
> upshift ok (1-2 seconds) when clutchless, but downshifting was a struggle.

I have a clutch in my current EV (LeCar), but don't actually use it. All
urban driving is done in 2nd gear. The only shifting is between forward
and reverse, which are done when stopped so the clutch isn't needed.

--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
        -- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

Danpatgal
In reply to this post by Mark Warner
Mark Warner wrote
Perhaps a dumb question, but how does a flywheel by itself generate noise?
It's not the flywheel chattering or grinding or vibrating.  But at higher RPMs it just sounds like an ICE at higher RPMs, you have that whine and it gets quite loud.  When I up shift engaging the clutch, the whine speeds up, as it's disengaged, and winds down to go to the next higher gear (and quiets down too).  I've driven clutchless EVs, and there isn't that noise/sensation during shifting, though I do fear my shifting will become slower, particularly downshifting.  So, I won't through all that good stuff away ;), but I like the idea of not spinning all that extra weight around.


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Re: bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

John Lussmyer
On Tue May 01 19:24:20 PDT 2012 [hidden email] said:
>
>It's not the flywheel chattering or grinding or vibrating.  But at higher
>RPMs it just sounds like an ICE at higher RPMs, you have that whine and it
>gets quite loud.  When I up shift engaging the clutch, the whine speeds up,
>as it's disengaged, and winds down to go to the next higher gear (and quiets
>down too).  I've driven clutchless EVs, and there isn't that noise/sensation
>during shifting,

That may just be your transmission.  Generally, a spinning disc of metal doesn't whine.
Some transmissions are a lot noiser than others.


--

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Re: bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

SLPinfo.org
I agree that it might be the transmission.  Your description of the noise
sounds similar to my S10 with a clutch.

Peter Flipsen Jr
 On May 1, 2012 8:39 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue May 01 19:24:20 PDT 2012 [hidden email] said:
> >
> >It's not the flywheel chattering or grinding or vibrating.  But at higher
> >RPMs it just sounds like an ICE at higher RPMs, you have that whine and it
> >gets quite loud.  When I up shift engaging the clutch, the whine speeds
> up,
> >as it's disengaged, and winds down to go to the next higher gear (and
> quiets
> >down too).  I've driven clutchless EVs, and there isn't that
> noise/sensation
> >during shifting,
>
> That may just be your transmission.  Generally, a spinning disc of metal
> doesn't whine.
> Some transmissions are a lot noiser than others.
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
> _______________________________________________
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Re: bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Danpatgal
Spinning weight does not cost energy.
Only changing the speed costs energy, that is why
you see light racing flywheels while for normal cars
it is inconsequential what the weight of the flywheel is,
you do almost all driving at roughtly the same RPM anyway
(with an ICE). Spinning up a flywheel is such a small
amount of energy compared to the energy need to speed up
a car that it hardly makes a difference in range whether
you have a stock flywheel or not.
Just like converting your car lights to LEDs - in most
EVs you will find that best case it changes the range
a fraction of a mile, not really significant.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Danpatgal
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 7:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] bad adapter - Flywheel Noise


Mark Warner wrote
>
> Perhaps a dumb question, but how does a flywheel by itself generate
noise?
>

It's not the flywheel chattering or grinding or vibrating.  But at
higher RPMs it just sounds like an ICE at higher RPMs, you have that
whine and it gets quite loud.  When I up shift engaging the clutch, the
whine speeds up, as it's disengaged, and winds down to go to the next
higher gear (and quiets down too).  I've driven clutchless EVs, and
there isn't that noise/sensation during shifting, though I do fear my
shifting will become slower, particularly downshifting.  So, I won't
through all that good stuff away ;), but I like the idea of not spinning
all that extra weight around.




-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/bad-adapter
-tp4599168p4602230.html
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Nabble.com.

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Re: bad adapter

Ben Jarrett
In reply to this post by Nathan Loofbourrow


I looked into an aluminum flywheel.  I'd like to try it someday, but I couldn't find a ready
made one for my jeep and having one made may cost more than I'm willing to spend at this time.

-ben


On May 1, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote:

> On May 1, 2012, at 3:40 PM, Ben Jarrrett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I hate that I'm putting 50lbs back in (flywheel is over 20lbs, plus pressure
>> plate, disc, pedal, linkage, etc), but it's the right thing to do for me.
>
> How about an aluminum flywheel?
>
> n
>
>
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Re: bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
Replace the pilot shaft bearing. That's the big bearing at the front of the
transmission case. That would be where I would place my bet.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 10:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] bad adapter - Flywheel Noise

On Tue May 01 19:24:20 PDT 2012 [hidden email] said:
>
>It's not the flywheel chattering or grinding or vibrating.  But at
>higher RPMs it just sounds like an ICE at higher RPMs, you have that
>whine and it gets quite loud.  When I up shift engaging the clutch, the
>whine speeds up, as it's disengaged, and winds down to go to the next
>higher gear (and quiets down too).  I've driven clutchless EVs, and
>there isn't that noise/sensation during shifting,

That may just be your transmission.  Generally, a spinning disc of metal
doesn't whine.
Some transmissions are a lot noiser than others.


--

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Re: bad adapter

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Mark Warner
My van conversion had a clutch attached to the flywheel with simple hex bots.  There was a timing inspection hole about 3/4" in diameter in the bell housing just beyond the diameter of the flywheel and in line with the hole.  As the bolt heads whipped past the hole I got a bit of a siren effect - similar to the classic helicopter blade noise being interrupted by the tail boom making that whoop-whoop noise.

Plugging the hole with the hole plug (!) made it go away.  Smoothing the bolt heads would probably work too - but much more difficult to do.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



On 1 May 2012, at 19:04, Mark Warner wrote:

> Perhaps a dumb question, but how does a flywheel by itself generate noise?
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Danpatgal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm curious about your decision to go back to using a clutch ... as I am in
>> the process of going clutchless.  For me I wanted a simpler more efficient
>> setup and to reduce noise.  The flywheel was making way too much noise in
>> the car (the R5 was a mid engine, so that's part of it).
>>
>>




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