computing costs

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computing costs

bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
I hate to ask a question like this, as I think I have seen it discussed before, or at least similar discussions, but I am at work, and am limited to what I can look at over the internet.  Read, I can't search the archives.  

So the story goes.

I was talking to my wife last night about my car.  It has been in the works for a long time, and I have a real use for it soon.  Most of the time, I am riding in a vanpool to work, so I don't need a car.  But I am going back to finish my masters degree, and it is a 28 mile round trip.  We currently have one car, a minivan which gets around 17-18 mpg.  It would be nice to not have to take the van to school everyday.  She was asking would we save on gas money if I got my electric car running.  I think so, but because I don't know how much power it takes to get there and back I couldn't answer completely.  This is what I was thinking:

Cost of the gas car:
    miles / mpg = gallons; gallons * price per gallon = cost to travel
    (28 / 17) * 2.75 ~ $4.53 for the round trip

I assume that the cost of the electric car would be similar, but is there a way to estimate the usage?  The car is a 1974 VW bug, and I want to run it at 144V, curtis 1231C, and am guessing the pack size will need to be at least 80 Ah.  I was considering SLA, but might do flooded.  Electricity in our area is about $0.08/kwh.  The distance includes ~8 miles of highway, ~6 miles city with up hills, on the way there.  Just reverse the process for home, ~6 miles of city and downhill, and ~8 miles of highway home.

Cost of the electric car:
    miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh = cost to travel
    (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????

Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to make an informed guess?  I appreciate all comments.

Thanks,
Brian
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/

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Re: computing costs

Evan Tuer
On 8/9/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cost of the electric car:
>     miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh = cost to travel
>     (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????
>
> Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to make an informed
> guess?  I appreciate all comments.

It's correct.  Electricity consumption is normally expressed as Wh per
mile.  A typical average value might be 350.  Or the other way around
that's 2.86 miles per kWh, so you need about 10kWh for the trip, let's
say 11kWh from the mains (to allow for charger losses).

You said you will use a 144V system, so the battery capacity you need
(if the above figure is used) can be roughly estimated as 10kWh/144V =
70AH.   So, allow double that figure if you're using lead-acid
batteries.

Remember to include the cost of battery depreciation in your
calculations.  A larger battery pack working less hard will last
longer and probably cost less over time.

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Re: commuting costs

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
For most EVs, the cost of battery depreciation dwarfs the cost of energy.  
It varies with the battery type, type of vehicle, how you drive, and how
well you maintain the battery.  

With what batteries cost these days, 6 cents per mile is about as cheap as
it gets in a small car, and 15 to 40 cents per mile wouldn't be at all
surprising for AGM batteries, larger vehicles, etc.  

About 8  years ago, I calculated the cost per mile of gel batteries for a
2100lb Solectria Force (Geo Metro) at 20 cents per mile.  For Trojan 27TMH
batteries I figured 8 cents per mile, and flooded golf car (if they would
fit, which they wouldn't) would have been about 4 cents per mile.  Remember
these are at 8-years-ago prices for batteries.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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Re: computing costs

Brian Jackson-10
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
I would be interested to know more about this too. I have been looking at a couple of generators for use in my planned EV... or hybrid. If there are better generator solutions than the one's I've found so far, I would like to know. :)

Brian


---- "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

=============
I hate to ask a question like this, as I think I have seen it discussed before, or at least similar discussions, but I am at work, and am limited to what I can look at over the internet.  Read, I can't search the archives.  

So the story goes.

I was talking to my wife last night about my car.  It has been in the works for a long time, and I have a real use for it soon.  Most of the time, I am riding in a vanpool to work, so I don't need a car.  But I am going back to finish my masters degree, and it is a 28 mile round trip.  We currently have one car, a minivan which gets around 17-18 mpg.  It would be nice to not have to take the van to school everyday.  She was asking would we save on gas money if I got my electric car running.  I think so, but because I don't know how much power it takes to get there and back I couldn't answer completely.  This is what I was thinking:

Cost of the gas car:
    miles / mpg = gallons; gallons * price per gallon = cost to travel
    (28 / 17) * 2.75 ~ $4.53 for the round trip

I assume that the cost of the electric car would be similar, but is there a way to estimate the usage?  The car is a 1974 VW bug, and I want to run it at 144V, curtis 1231C, and am guessing the pack size will need to be at least 80 Ah.  I was considering SLA, but might do flooded.  Electricity in our area is about $0.08/kwh.  The distance includes ~8 miles of highway, ~6 miles city with up hills, on the way there.  Just reverse the process for home, ~6 miles of city and downhill, and ~8 miles of highway home.

Cost of the electric car:
    miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh = cost to travel
    (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????

Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to make an informed guess?  I appreciate all comments.

Thanks,
Brian
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/

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Re: computing costs

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
Hello Brian,

Lets round everything out to the worst case:

If your electricity cost is $0.08/kwh which is the same cost I have too, and
lets say your EV uses 1kwh per mile, than for the 28 miles this would be 28
x $0.08 = $2.24 for electricity as compare to $4.53 for gas.

My rig that is gear correctly for a very heavy loads that I might carry at
times which is up to about 20:1 overall gear ratio.  One time I carry 1600
lbs of porcelain floor tiles which the made the EV weigh about 8600 lbs, I
was running at about .5Kw/mi at 25 mph.    At 6800 lbs in third gear at 50
mph it uses about .55Kw/mi at 50 mph.

So at about .5kw/mi the cost of electricity would be about $1.12.  Now for
you lite weight rig, it could even be half of that again or about $0.55 for
28 miles.

If gasoline is $3.30 a gallon, then ($3.30/$0.55)x 28 = 168 mpg in cost
comparison.

I do not take the cost of the batteries, why, because for me, it like taking
the cost of replacement engines which I have done every five years and
calculation that in with the mpg.

I can get 10 to 12 years out of my batteries and even did not have to
replacement them, but I wanted something new or different.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 6:54 AM
Subject: [EVDL] computing costs


> I hate to ask a question like this, as I think I have seen it discussed
> before, or at least similar discussions, but I am at work, and am limited
> to what I can look at over the internet.  Read, I can't search the
> archives.
>
> So the story goes.
>
> I was talking to my wife last night about my car.  It has been in the
> works for a long time, and I have a real use for it soon.  Most of the
> time, I am riding in a vanpool to work, so I don't need a car.  But I am
> going back to finish my masters degree, and it is a 28 mile round trip.
> We currently have one car, a minivan which gets around 17-18 mpg.  It
> would be nice to not have to take the van to school everyday.  She was
> asking would we save on gas money if I got my electric car running.  I
> think so, but because I don't know how much power it takes to get there
> and back I couldn't answer completely.  This is what I was thinking:
>
> Cost of the gas car:
>     miles / mpg = gallons; gallons * price per gallon = cost to travel
>     (28 / 17) * 2.75 ~ $4.53 for the round trip
>
> I assume that the cost of the electric car would be similar, but is there
> a way to estimate the usage?  The car is a 1974 VW bug, and I want to run
> it at 144V, curtis 1231C, and am guessing the pack size will need to be at
> least 80 Ah.  I was considering SLA, but might do flooded.  Electricity in
> our area is about $0.08/kwh.  The distance includes ~8 miles of highway,
> ~6 miles city with up hills, on the way there.  Just reverse the process
> for home, ~6 miles of city and downhill, and ~8 miles of highway home.
>
> Cost of the electric car:
>     miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh = cost to travel
>     (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????
>
> Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to make an
> informed guess?  I appreciate all comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> ---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: computing costs

Dmitri-7
Yes, I was going to mention that. If you are taking battery costs into
consideration, then you have to take the other gasser costs too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] computing costs



>
> I do not take the cost of the batteries, why, because for me, it like
> taking the cost of replacement engines which I have done every five years
> and calculation that in with the mpg.
>
>
> Roland
>
>

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Re: computing costs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
[hidden email] wrote:
> Cost of the electric car: miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh =
> cost to travel (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????
>
> Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to
> make an informed guess?  I appreciate all comments.

A VW bug with this motor and battery will use about 0.33 KWH per mile at
the AC receptacle. Let's say your electricity costs 9 cents/KWH. Then
you are paying

        9 cents/KWH x 0.33 KWH/mile = 3 cents a mile for electricity.

Let's say your car got 30 miles per gallon, and gas costs $3.00/gallon.
Then you are paying

        $3/gal / 30 miles/gal = 30 cents a mile for gasoline.

On this basis, electricity is a big winner! But... you also have to
consider the cost of the batteries, as they are a regular maintenance
and replacement item.

Let's say you use plain old 6v flooded golf cart batteries (which give
the lowest cost per mile). If you take good care of them and don't
murder them early from abuse, they will last about 20,000 miles. Let's
say you use 16 of them at $75 each = $1200. Their cost per mile is

        $1200 / 20,000 miles = 6 cents a mile
        plus 3 cents/mile for electricity
        total 9 cents/mile

If you use AGMs, the car will be a lot peppier and there won't be any
battery maintenance. But they cost twice as much and only last half as
long. You battery costs are thus 4 times higher

        $2400 / 10,000 = 24 cents/mile
        plus 3 cents/mile for electricity
        total 28 cents/mile

In other words, AGMs all but wipes out any savings over gasoline.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: computing costs

Ralph Merwin-2
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu

Brian,

Others have addressed the cost of electricity and batteries.  One aspect
that you might also want to consider is that if you're going to try
finishing the conversion while you are working on your degree, you will
likely have little time to work on the conversion...  You'll be lucky to
get the conversion done before you're done working on the degree.  If you
end up driving the van in the menatime, you probably won't realize any
savings from the EV.

Hopefully you have time to finish the conversion before starting on the
degree.

Ralph


[hidden email] writes:

>
> I hate to ask a question like this, as I think I have seen it discussed before, or at least similar discussions, but I am at work, and am limited to what I can look at over the internet.  Read, I can't search the archives.  
>
> So the story goes.
>
> I was talking to my wife last night about my car.  It has been in the works for a long time, and I have a real use for it soon.  Most of the time, I am riding in a vanpool to work, so I don't need a car.  But I am going back to finish my masters degree, and it is a 28 mile round trip.  We currently have one car, a minivan which gets around 17-18 mpg.  It would be nice to not have to take the van to school everyday.  She was asking would we save on gas money if I got my electric car running.  I think so, but because I don't know how much power it takes to get there and back I couldn't answer completely.  This is what I was thinking:
>
> Cost of the gas car:
>     miles / mpg = gallons; gallons * price per gallon = cost to travel
>     (28 / 17) * 2.75 ~ $4.53 for the round trip
>
> I assume that the cost of the electric car would be similar, but is there a way to estimate the usage?  The car is a 1974 VW bug, and I want to run it at 144V, curtis 1231C, and am guessing the pack size will need to be at least 80 Ah.  I was considering SLA, but might do flooded.  Electricity in our area is about $0.08/kwh.  The distance includes ~8 miles of highway, ~6 miles city with up hills, on the way there.  Just reverse the process for home, ~6 miles of city and downhill, and ~8 miles of highway home.
>
> Cost of the electric car:
>     miles / mpkwh = kwh;  kwh * price per kwh = cost to travel
>     (28 / ???) * 0.08 ~ ?????????
>
> Is this correct way to compare costs?  Am I missing information to make an informed guess?  I appreciate all comments.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> ---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: computing costs

Timothy Balcer
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
This one is in your neighborhood, if you don't want to actually do the
conversion:

http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=1759&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=17

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Re: computing costs

Timothy Balcer
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Re: commuting costs

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
On 9 Aug 2007 at 11:14, Lee Hart wrote:

> But they cost twice as much and only last half as long.
> Your battery costs are thus 4 times higher.

Minor correction :  Battery costs are four times AS HIGH, or three times
HIGHER.  

The difference isn't just academic, there's an accuracy issue here.  Misuse
and misunderstanding of these two non-equivalent English expressions is
pretty common.  It may be safer to avoid using "as high as" or "higher than"
altogether when explaining EVs' capabilities to the public - or anything
else, for that matter.

> In other words, AGMs all but wipes out any savings over gasoline.

No doubt about that!

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: computing costs

cowtown
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
<<<< Let's say your car got 30 miles per gallon, and gas costs $3.00/gallon.
Then you are paying

        $3/gal / 30 miles/gal = 30 cents a mile for gasoline. >>>>

We know you mean 10 cents/mile, Lee ;^) That's about what my RAV4 costs, and
since it's a Toyota, nothing else besides an occasional oil/filter update.

<<<< Let's say you use plain old 6v flooded golf cart batteries (which give
the lowest cost per mile). If you take good care of them and don't
murder them early from abuse, they will last about 20,000 miles. Let's
say you use 16 of them at $75 each = $1200. Their cost per mile is

        $1200 / 20,000 miles = 6 cents a mile
        plus 3 cents/mile for electricity
        total 9 cents/mile >>>>

...a lot of converters relying on Curtises shoot for 144v ($1800 with your
basis), but if you baby them with shallow discharges and enough distilled
water, maybe stretch lifespan beyond 20K mi.

<<<< If you use AGMs, the car will be a lot peppier and there won't be any
battery maintenance. But they cost twice as much and only last half as
long. You battery costs are thus 4 times higher

        $2400 / 10,000 = 24 cents/mile
        plus 3 cents/mile for electricity
        total 28 cents/mile >>>>

I paid $3600 to Blue Sky Motors for my Ranger's latest pack, so I certainly hope
I get more than 10K mi! The previous one died with 21K on the odo, but these
packs have been switched around too much to assume I had the original in there.

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EV World Article on PIR race (KillaCycle mostly)

Bill Dube
Here is another informative article about the KillaCycle:
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1302

Be sure to watch the video clip. :-)

Bill Dube'

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Re: computing costs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by bjstaff@cc.usu.edu
>> $3/gal / 30 miles/gal = 30 cents a mile for gasoline.

Cowtown wrote:
> We know you mean 10 cents/mile, Lee ;^)

Ouch! That was a stupid mistake! Thanks for the correction.



--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Re: commuting costs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Lee Hart wrote:
>> But they cost twice as much and only last half as long.
>> Your battery costs are thus 4 times higher.

From: David Roden
> Minor correction: Battery costs are four times AS HIGH, or three
> times HIGHER.  

Good catch, David. But you missed the huge math error, so there!

Actually, I can claim I put these errors in on purpose just to see if anyone is paying attention :-)
--
"It's a damned poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
Andrew Jackson
--
Lee Hart

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Re: EV World Article on PIR race (KillaCycle mostly)

Dan Frederiksen-2
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I don't know if this has ever been covered fully but how many cells are
in the pack? and how many in series?
and what does it cost?

Dan

Bill Dube wrote:

> Here is another informative article about the KillaCycle:
> http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1302
>
> Be sure to watch the video clip. :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>  

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Re: commuting costs

Tim Humphrey
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator



>
> Lee Hart wrote:

> --
> "It's a damned poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a
> word."
> Andrew Jackson
>


Lee, do you have a file that you pull all of these quotes from? If so, I'd like a copy. (I'm not saying that I need a different quote line ;-) )


Stay Charged!
Hump

Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often fatal. :-) -- Lee Hart

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Re: EV World Article on PIR race (KillaCycle mostly)

Steven Ciciora
In reply to this post by Dan Frederiksen-2
Current pack: 990 cells.  110 in series, 9 in
parallel.  Previous pack: 880 cells.  110 in series, 8
in parallel.  A refined pack design along with frame
modification allowed for more cells.  As far as cost
to acquire the cells, not much at all in terms of
dollars due to sponsorship.  BUT... no one gives away
sponsorship.  You have to work very hard to earn it.
Just ask John Wayland (from what little I know about
what it takes to earn sponsorship, he's the king; I
don't know of anyone else who works harder to earn
sponsorhip).  There is still a lot more to building a
pack.  Like testing the limits of the cells,
developing assembly techniques, learning how to weld
tabs, acquiring (and getting functional) a tab welder,
_LOTS_ of tabs, etc.  I am not 100% sure how many tabs
there are, but approximatly, there are two tabs
(paralleled) between every cell in series, and one tab
connecting each parallel cell.  There is the effort
involved in figuring out how much current a battery
with only one tab can put out, and how to work around
that limitation.  (A single tab conducting much over
100A will overheat and cause damage to the cell).  Oh,
yea, then there's the BMS, 1000+ hours all by
itself...  I'm not a very good writer, but hopefully
you can get a sense of the effort involved.

- Steven Ciciora

--- Dan Frederiksen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know if this has ever been covered fully but
> how many cells are
> in the pack? and how many in series?
> and what does it cost?
>
> Dan
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
> > Here is another informative article about the
> KillaCycle:
> > http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1302
> >
> > Be sure to watch the video clip. :-)
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >  
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: commuting costs

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Tim Humphrey
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> Lee, do you have a file that you pull all of these quotes from? If
> so, I'd like a copy.

I glean 'em from all over the place. I attached a few files with them
that I have on my computer. Others are from books, or calendars, and
various other printed sources.

> I'm not saying that I need a different quote line ;-)

Actually, I'm flattered that anyone would want to quote me!

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Re: EV World Article on PIR race (KillaCycle mostly)

Dave Cover
In reply to this post by Steven Ciciora
--- Steven Ciciora <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Current pack: 990 cells.  110 in series, 9 in
> parallel.  Previous pack: 880 cells.  110 in series, 8
> in parallel.

Sorry to be dumb, but is it 9 strings of 110 cells? Or is it 9 cells to a pack, 110 packs in
series?

Is the BMS at a cell level? Has there been any attempt to see how the idividual cells are doing?
Have there been enough cycles to see if cell voltages are starting to wander?

Longing for lithium in CT,

Dave Cover

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