cooling my conversion

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cooling my conversion

Ben Jarrett


So up until now, I haven't given much thought to cooling.  I hate the idea
of having to cool things since it heat means there's energy loss.  Then, you have
to use energy to power fans or pumps to remove the unusable energy.  Oh well, I guess
it's "welcome to the real world for now".

So I plan to by the standard cooling kit for my Soliton:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_cooling.php

And I plan to buy a kit like this for my motor:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php

Anybody have any thoughts on these kits?  I'm looking for a ready-to-go kit vs
rounding up my own components.  I just want to make sure I don't grossly overkill
or underkill what I need to do.

thanks!
-ben

http://evalbum.com/4001


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Re: cooling my conversion

David Ladd
I have a slightly older version of the evsource motor cooling kit (bought it last year).  Looks like the same blower, but i can't be sure.  Definitely a different band, and maybe it now has some intelligence in the wiring?  Not sure.  Mine was just a simple band with a blower and hoses, no wiring included.  It was also a lot cheaper I think.  I wired it with a relay that is always on with 12v, but has a manual override toggle switch in the passenger area so I can kill the fan if needed.

It seems to work just fine, but is a bit loud for me.  It's louder than my controller fan (Synkromotive), but quieter than the vaccuum pump for the brakes.  I often shut it off at low speeds so I can be more 'stealthy'.  Once rolling over 5mph, you cannot hear it.  I mounted the blower solidly to a plate that is mounted to the frame with three rubber isolation mounts (radiator mounts from a VW Rabbit, actually).

I personally didn't install it so much for cooling (I'm not pushing the limits of my Warp9), but to keep the innards clean.  Just seems like a good idea.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021

>________________________________
> From: Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]>
>
>And I plan to buy a kit like this for my motor:
>http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php
>
>Anybody have any thoughts on these kits?  I'm looking for a ready-to-go kit vs
>rounding up my own components.  I just want to make sure I don't grossly overkill
>or underkill what I need to do.

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Re: cooling my conversion

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett
Hello Ben,

EV Source use to have a Dayton blower that you can mount right to the brush
cover.  No hoses or mounting brackets.  You can search Dayton Blowers and
look for a 12 vdc type.  These have about a 2 by 3 inch square outlet and a
5 inch round inlet.

I use one that is directly bolted to my GE-11 brush cover, and one to a
WarP-11 screen brush cover which I bolted a solid steel plate to hold the
blower motor.

I use a thick rubber gasket material between the motor and the outlet of the
fan which closes the curve of the motor to the flat outlet.  Also makes the
blower motor quiet.

A 150 cfm blower works fine.  Use it even in the winter to keep the snow out
of the motor when I drive through a foot of snow which could scoop up snow
at the rear air vents.   Install a 6 inch carburetor filter housing on the 5
inch round inlet to keep out the dust.

So far the motor temperature has not gone over 99 F. which was the same
temperature of the ambient air at one time.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Jarrett" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 1:47 PM
Subject: [EVDL] cooling my conversion


>
>
> So up until now, I haven't given much thought to cooling.  I hate the idea
> of having to cool things since it heat means there's energy loss.  Then,
> you have
> to use energy to power fans or pumps to remove the unusable energy.  Oh
> well, I guess
> it's "welcome to the real world for now".
>
> So I plan to by the standard cooling kit for my Soliton:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_cooling.php
>
> And I plan to buy a kit like this for my motor:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on these kits?  I'm looking for a ready-to-go
> kit vs
> rounding up my own components.  I just want to make sure I don't grossly
> overkill
> or underkill what I need to do.
>
> thanks!
> -ben
>
> http://evalbum.com/4001
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: cooling my conversion

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett
Hi Ben,

I recently did a post on how to make a setup for cooling your motor. Check it out here:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2012/05/plug-bug-blower-install-on-the-motor/

If you run it on a snap switch, you won't have to hear the thing at all when the motor is cool. The setup has been working great for me. I think it lowers the motor temperature by about 10C.

However, unlike Roland, I see much higher temperatures; possibly because I do long drives (45'ish minutes - 20-30 miles, with a large hill climb).

I was seeing ~70C/158F on my motor when 65F Oatside air temp (OAT). With my blower, I see 60-62C (144F) at 77F OAT. Significantly warmer out, and the motor is quite a bit cooler.

Note that the dayton blowers at 150CFM are only rated for a short life span...I anticipate mine will die in 3-5 years, and I'll have to get their 250CFM "professional" grade one that can be run continuously (look at the datasheets to see this info yourself).

I think the kits include a 110CFM Dayton blower (based on my research). FWIW, the kits are way overpriced, but save time.

corbin

Am Jun 4, 2012 um 12:47 PM schrieb Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> So up until now, I haven't given much thought to cooling.  I hate the idea
> of having to cool things since it heat means there's energy loss.  Then, you have
> to use energy to power fans or pumps to remove the unusable energy.  Oh well, I guess
> it's "welcome to the real world for now".
>
> So I plan to by the standard cooling kit for my Soliton:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_cooling.php
>
> And I plan to buy a kit like this for my motor:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on these kits?  I'm looking for a ready-to-go kit vs
> rounding up my own components.  I just want to make sure I don't grossly overkill
> or underkill what I need to do.
>
> thanks!
> -ben
>
> http://evalbum.com/4001
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: cooling my conversion

Voltswagon
Corbin, only 10C?  A difference that small seems hardly worth the effort.  When I had mine attached I got about 10C if I drove in 2nd (cooling unnecessary) and up to 40C in 4th (4" bilge pump blower).
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Re: cooling my conversion

tomw
Can't really compare cooling unless you compare the same size motor on the same route at same ambient temperature.  Corbin is driving at highway speed for 20-30 miles including a several mile long hill, so quite a bit of heating of the motor.  Mine doesn't heat up much at all driving around at 35-40 mph compared to what it does driving at 65 mph, or up the mountains for 10-20 miles on 4%-5% grade.  A delta of 10 C is 18 F, which doesn't seem that bad for air cooling.
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Re: cooling my conversion

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by Voltswagon
Yup, only about a 10C difference with the blower on vs not on - the motor still runs hot. Note that I have a pretty tough hill I drive up on a regular basis, and it really works the motor hard! I'm measuring the motor case temp; the brush temp might be significantly hotter (or cooler with the blower).

If I only drive around town (ie: flatish, and less than 10 miles), the motor hardly gets above being warm. It's really the freeway (at 65-70mph) and hills (5% grade at 55mph) that make it get hot. The snap switch (at 50C) usually comes on going up my big hill, and cools the motor while I do a 2 mile coast downhill to my house.

I looked into the 4" bilge pump blowers (the inline ones), but the CFM rating for them was lower than the squirrel cage ones.

--corbin

Am Jun 5, 2012 um 6:17 PM schrieb Voltswagon <[hidden email]>:

> Corbin, only 10C?  A difference that small seems hardly worth the effort.
> When I had mine attached I got about 10C if I drove in 2nd (cooling
> unnecessary) and up to 40C in 4th (4" bilge pump blower).
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-conversion-tp4655375p4655436.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: cooling my conversion

Voltswagon
That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not that that means much.  

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low gear.  That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the same level of cooling.
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Cor van de Water
Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor,
after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and
immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see
if everything was OK) and though there were quite
warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell
came from the motor which was warm but not really hot
to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an
automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery
amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that
all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps
staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed
(above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at
top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under
110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM
counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash)
but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like
to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get
a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM
by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100
controller can close its bypass contactor and give full
battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power
even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced
cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting
to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means
that I really need to put the lid on the controller and
insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the
controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I
compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take
at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford
Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to
40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this
truck has not been running much in the past years, so
there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the
truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A
for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the
automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant
(probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current
limit will cause low power into the motor, because
RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low
so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into
the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty
cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the
acceleration to be very disappointing until higher
speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb,
so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power
and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is
locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear)
at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not
as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first
few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny
switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be
reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would
probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny
continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow
the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this
truck - does anybody have experience with this and
can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the
brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger
mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than
adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not
that that means much.  

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low
gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the
same level of cooling.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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|
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

David Dymaxion
Look closely for an electrical or vacuum input to the tranny that tells it to hold a gear at higher RPM. I had a car that I would reach down by hand and close the kickdown switch -- it would rev to redline even with gentle accelerator inputs. If you find a vacuum line try drawing a vacuum on it.

Kudos to you for getting an automatic tranny to work!



________________________________
 From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
 
Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor,
after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and
immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see
if everything was OK) and though there were quite
warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell
came from the motor which was warm but not really hot
to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an
automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery
amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that
all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps
staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed
(above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at
top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under
110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM
counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash)
but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like
to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get
a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM
by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100
controller can close its bypass contactor and give full
battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power
even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced
cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting
to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means
that I really need to put the lid on the controller and
insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the
controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I
compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take
at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford
Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to
40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this
truck has not been running much in the past years, so
there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the
truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A
for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the
automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant
(probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current
limit will cause low power into the motor, because
RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low
so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into
the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty
cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the
acceleration to be very disappointing until higher
speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb,
so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power
and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is
locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear)
at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not
as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first
few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny
switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be
reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would
probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny
continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow
the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this
truck - does anybody have experience with this and
can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the
brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger
mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than
adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not
that that means much. 

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low
gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the
same level of cooling.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Voltswagon
Hello Cor,

What I did with my automatic, was to get rid of the automatic value body and
replace it with a manual value body.  This is a easy replacement, this unit
is right at the bottom of the the transmission which is a bolt in unit.

Also when you install a manual value body, you do not need any vacuum
modulator which is remove and seal with a modulator plug.

It is best to use a torque converter with a very low lock up rpm.  My unit
starts to move the EV at 300 rpm which gives a additional gear ratio of
1.8:1 and becomes full lock up at 1700 rpm at a gear ratio of 1.0:1.

You have to shift it like a manual.  I shift up to the next gear at about
1800 rpm which is the sweet spot of the motor and when I reach 1800 rpm
again, shift it again.

The starting overall gear ratio with my manual was about 19:1 in 1st and
13:1 in 2nd.  With the automatic, which adds 1.8:1 gear ratio, it becomes
27:1 in 1st.  As the rpm raises from 300 to 1800 rpm, the gear ratio varies
from 27:1 to 16:1.  I then shift to 2nd at 1800 rpm or 16:1 which is still
16:1 overall gear ratio in the 2nd gear.

The rpm drops while shifting and when it reaches 1800 rpm the overall gear
ratio varies to 10:1 in 2nd gear.  This method keeps the motor ampere
constant at 200 amps which is the normal running ampere of a GE-11 or
WarP-11 motor.  The battery ampere ranges from 65 to 80 ampere while
climbing a residential steep hill at 25 mph.

Level grade driving, the motor is at about 150 amps while the battery ampere
is 50 amperes at speeds up to 45 mph in 3rd gear.  The 3rd gear ratio is
1.0:1 and the differential is a 5.57:1 for a 6600 lb EV.

I can also accelerated starting out in 3rd gear which the motor ampere may
go to 300 amps.  The overall ratio at start is the torque converter adding
1.8:1 x 5.57:1 = 10.026:1 which is the same ratio as in 2nd gear.    After
accelerating, the motor ampere comes back to about 150 ampere with the
battery ampere of 50 amps.

It is best to change the differential gear ratio to at least a 4.11:1 for a
3000 lb EV or 4.56:1 for a 4000 lb EV.  My EV original had a standard
automatic transmission with a 2.78:1 differential.  In 1st gear ratio of
2.75:1, the overall ratio was only 7.645:1 at lock up at 3300 rpm which is
too high for a EV but works for a engine.

My EV is now a lot safer while stop on hills when I turn on the idle switch
to keep it about 300 rpm with out using any brakes.  While park on a hill, I
now can use the PARK position and the emergency brake instead of just using
the emergency brake when I had the manual.  Sometimes I had to use a wheel
chock as a back up.

Driving the same exact route with this unit, I may use less ah/mile than I
did with the manual. It is great for pushing through a foot of snow and I
can hold it going down a hill by shifting into a lower gear.

Used a manual valve body that has a Push to Start feature.  Which is
normally use for one vehicle is pushing the vehicle, will allow the engine
or motor to turn over.  This allows the motor to turn over while coasting
down hill which allows for some REGEN action.

You can get manual valve bodies for any automatic from tci.com.  Talk to the
tech about any additional info.

Roland







From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor,
after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and
immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see
if everything was OK) and though there were quite
warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell
came from the motor which was warm but not really hot
to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an
automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery
amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that
all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps
staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed
(above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at
top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under
110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM
counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash)
but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like
to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get
a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM
by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100
controller can close its bypass contactor and give full
battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power
even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced
cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting
to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means
that I really need to put the lid on the controller and
insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the
controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I
compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take
at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford
Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to
40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this
truck has not been running much in the past years, so
there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the
truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A
for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the
automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant
(probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current
limit will cause low power into the motor, because
RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low
so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into
the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty
cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the
acceleration to be very disappointing until higher
speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb,
so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power
and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is
locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear)
at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not
as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first
few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny
switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be
reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would
probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny
continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow
the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this
truck - does anybody have experience with this and
can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water   XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense. My 40C difference was from the measured high in the
brushes. The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger
mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than
adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead. I think it's 150 CFM, not
that that means much.

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low
gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the
same level of cooling.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by David Dymaxion
Hi David,
It is not *my* work to get the automatic to work,
I am just trying to learn how to operate it after
I had fixed the controller so I can use the EV,
instead of it being a driveway queen.
(I bought it like my previous EV truck, sitting in
someone's driveway. He literally bought it from the
junk yard after the city of Santa Rosa discarded this
EV - probably sitting years unused with bad batteries
and a blown controller.

Original converter IIRC was ExpertEV in Penn Valley and
seeing the 1994 date stamp on the EV100 control card
it is likely that they converted the 5yo 1989 Ranger
to electric, maintaining its automatic transmission,
power steering and power brakes.
That also jives with the ODO reading just under 70k
which is normal for a 5yo car. (I presume that the
city never used the truck much and the last year while
it was sitting in the previous owner's driveway it was
initially driven a few days until the controller again
failed and he could not get it to work again.)
Power steering runs from a belt - I expect it is the
original pump being run by a pulley on the tail shaft
and the power brakes now have an electric vacuum pump.

This transmission is the A4LD which is a 4-speed (1-2-D-O)
which means that it has ratios:
2.47 for first
1.47 for second
1.00 for third (Drive)
0.75 for fourth (Overdrive)
It should have two solenoids, one to control torque converter
lockup and the other to disable the 3-4 (overdrive) switch.
I do not know if and how they are controlled today, I would
hope that the torque converter is locked as soon as the
vehicle is moving. That may actually happen as the initial
launch is pretty good, only as soon as the vehicle is going
the acceleration is marginal - it is good that I have some
experience with underpowered cars and can usually keep up
with traffic by planning ahead.

Yesterday I experimented by avoiding what I would do in
an ICE - put the automatic in the first selection after N
(autonmatic overdrive) and leave it there.
(except on steep down slopes)
I started by driving residential streets in 1st gear.
Wow - the performance (acceleration) was much better and
it even had a noticeable "engine drag" from the added friction
(probably mainly the internal fan) at high RPM.
By my estimation, I can go up to 35 MPH and still stay well
under the redline of the motor.
I am guessing that I should not go beyond 4500 RPM on this
11" GE motor.

Which brings me to the freeway - although shifting from 1st to
2nd at speed is jerky, the performance is better (still not
great, but that is the consequence of a relative low power
in a heavy vehicle) and I can see the controller stopping its
characteristic whistle when I drive above 50-55 MPH which
tells me that the controller is finally able to close its
bypass contactor when PWM got close enough to 100%.
I think I can go up to 60 MPH in 2nd gear without crossing
redline on the motor.
This should definitely be an improvement over earlier, where
I was getting about half the motor speed because the tranny
went into overdrive - fine for an ICE at moderate speed but
not the right thing for an electric motor!

Consumption was not really lower (which I had hoped for)
because I tried to lower the default 300A pack current to
200A but kept losing speed, when I got down to 50MPH I did
not want to continue this experiment to not annoy other
motorists on the freeway...

When I got home and checked under the hood, I noticed two
things: the motor was somewhat cooler and did not smell,
probably also due to the fan I had re-enabled. The other
thing was that the steering pump was hot. This may be due
to the increased speed at with which it was rotating now
or there may be a bearing not OK. I was almost burning my
finger when touching the pump.
So, that is a definite power loss and I may try to take the
belt off to see how much power that will save...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Look closely for an electrical or vacuum input to the tranny that tells it to hold a gear at higher RPM. I had a car that I would reach down by hand and close the kickdown switch -- it would rev to redline even with gentle accelerator inputs. If you find a vacuum line try drawing a vacuum on it.

Kudos to you for getting an automatic tranny to work!



________________________________
 From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
 
Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor, after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see if everything was OK) and though there were quite warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell came from the motor which was warm but not really hot to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed (above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under 110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash) but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100 controller can close its bypass contactor and give full battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means that I really need to put the lid on the controller and insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to 40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this truck has not been running much in the past years, so there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant (probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current limit will cause low power into the motor, because RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the acceleration to be very disappointing until higher speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb, so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear) at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this truck - does anybody have experience with this and can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not that that means much. 

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the same level of cooling.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

David Dymaxion
Then kudos for getting it to work!

Racers often overheat power steering pumps due to the sustained high rpm and lots of steering -- I have burned one up myself on a road racing track. A power steering pump is a surprisingly wasteful device -- it makes max pressure at idle, and then just circulates excess fluid at higher rpm. For my gasser I bought a "Turn One" pump that recalibrates the pressure to 80% of normal -- so I don't get full power steering assist until around 1200 rpm instead of 800 rpm. I never notice the difference unless I look for it. Other tricks you could do would be to put a smaller pulley on it, or drive it with its own motor.



________________________________
 From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
 
Hi David,
It is not *my* work to get the automatic to work,
I am just trying to learn how to operate it after
I had fixed the controller so I can use the EV,
instead of it being a driveway queen.
(I bought it like my previous EV truck, sitting in
someone's driveway. He literally bought it from the
junk yard after the city of Santa Rosa discarded this
EV - probably sitting years unused with bad batteries
and a blown controller.

Original converter IIRC was ExpertEV in Penn Valley and
seeing the 1994 date stamp on the EV100 control card
it is likely that they converted the 5yo 1989 Ranger
to electric, maintaining its automatic transmission,
power steering and power brakes.
That also jives with the ODO reading just under 70k
which is normal for a 5yo car. (I presume that the
city never used the truck much and the last year while
it was sitting in the previous owner's driveway it was
initially driven a few days until the controller again
failed and he could not get it to work again.)
Power steering runs from a belt - I expect it is the
original pump being run by a pulley on the tail shaft
and the power brakes now have an electric vacuum pump.

This transmission is the A4LD which is a 4-speed (1-2-D-O)
which means that it has ratios:
2.47 for first
1.47 for second
1.00 for third (Drive)
0.75 for fourth (Overdrive)
It should have two solenoids, one to control torque converter
lockup and the other to disable the 3-4 (overdrive) switch.
I do not know if and how they are controlled today, I would
hope that the torque converter is locked as soon as the
vehicle is moving. That may actually happen as the initial
launch is pretty good, only as soon as the vehicle is going
the acceleration is marginal - it is good that I have some
experience with underpowered cars and can usually keep up
with traffic by planning ahead.

Yesterday I experimented by avoiding what I would do in
an ICE - put the automatic in the first selection after N
(autonmatic overdrive) and leave it there.
(except on steep down slopes)
I started by driving residential streets in 1st gear.
Wow - the performance (acceleration) was much better and
it even had a noticeable "engine drag" from the added friction
(probably mainly the internal fan) at high RPM.
By my estimation, I can go up to 35 MPH and still stay well
under the redline of the motor.
I am guessing that I should not go beyond 4500 RPM on this
11" GE motor.

Which brings me to the freeway - although shifting from 1st to
2nd at speed is jerky, the performance is better (still not
great, but that is the consequence of a relative low power
in a heavy vehicle) and I can see the controller stopping its
characteristic whistle when I drive above 50-55 MPH which
tells me that the controller is finally able to close its
bypass contactor when PWM got close enough to 100%.
I think I can go up to 60 MPH in 2nd gear without crossing
redline on the motor.
This should definitely be an improvement over earlier, where
I was getting about half the motor speed because the tranny
went into overdrive - fine for an ICE at moderate speed but
not the right thing for an electric motor!

Consumption was not really lower (which I had hoped for)
because I tried to lower the default 300A pack current to
200A but kept losing speed, when I got down to 50MPH I did
not want to continue this experiment to not annoy other
motorists on the freeway...

When I got home and checked under the hood, I noticed two
things: the motor was somewhat cooler and did not smell,
probably also due to the fan I had re-enabled. The other
thing was that the steering pump was hot. This may be due
to the increased speed at with which it was rotating now
or there may be a bearing not OK. I was almost burning my
finger when touching the pump.
So, that is a definite power loss and I may try to take the
belt off to see how much power that will save...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Look closely for an electrical or vacuum input to the tranny that tells it to hold a gear at higher RPM. I had a car that I would reach down by hand and close the kickdown switch -- it would rev to redline even with gentle accelerator inputs. If you find a vacuum line try drawing a vacuum on it.

Kudos to you for getting an automatic tranny to work!



________________________________
From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor, after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see if everything was OK) and though there were quite warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell came from the motor which was warm but not really hot to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed (above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under 110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash) but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100 controller can close its bypass contactor and give full battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means that I really need to put the lid on the controller and insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to 40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this truck has not been running much in the past years, so there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant (probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current limit will cause low power into the motor, because RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the acceleration to be very disappointing until higher speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb, so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear) at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this truck - does anybody have experience with this and can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not that that means much. 

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the same level of cooling.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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|
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Cor van de Water
I am quite used to non-power assist, so on my
previous EV truck I disabled the pump (it was
taxing the DC/DC too much as it was an electric
driven power steering pump on the 12V) and I am
actually a fan of vehicles that can NOT ruin their
tires by scrubbing them around at standstill.

My drive instructor had a very simple statement
about manouvring in the parking lot and similar
occasions where you have to turn the wheel much:
"drive slow, turn fast".
She actually scolded you if you tried to turn
the wheels at standstill. "What! Do you want to
try to ruin those tires? You need them to bring
you somewhere safely at great speed, so be nice
to them!" and she proceeded to allow you only to
turn the wheel when the vehicle was moving somewhat.

This essentially makes power steering unnecessary,
so I will remove the belt and see how it drives.

I might also pump the tires a little more, though
I already find that I often need to hold the truck
with the service brakes as it rolls away on what
appears to be a flat road, so I do not think that is
a problem. I expect that it is the automatic transmission
that is now the biggest difference with my previous truck
which had a manual gearbox (in 2nd gear).

I might also put a voltmeter on the motor (plus a
simple R-C filter) to get a reading of the output
of the controller, because I still think that some
parts in the controller get too hot and this may
also affect the performance, but definitely the
transmission and power steering - if each of those
take 20% away of the ~30kW that I am sucking out of
this 120V pack of 6V GC batteries then I suddenly
only have about 19kW left over. Comparing that to
my previous EV truck (S10 longbed) using 15kW at
constant 55 MPH then we are getting close to finding
where the power is going and not being used to move
the vehicle, but to heat up parts...

Even for the manual tranny I did not like that when
taking a 10-20 mile freeway drive, the transmission
did get noticeable warm, so the energy from the motor
was used to warm up transmission and probably also
the differential. Tires never got warm - I checked.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 2:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Then kudos for getting it to work!

Racers often overheat power steering pumps due to the sustained high rpm and lots of steering -- I have burned one up myself on a road racing track. A power steering pump is a surprisingly wasteful device -- it makes max pressure at idle, and then just circulates excess fluid at higher rpm. For my gasser I bought a "Turn One" pump that recalibrates the pressure to 80% of normal -- so I don't get full power steering assist until around 1200 rpm instead of 800 rpm. I never notice the difference unless I look for it. Other tricks you could do would be to put a smaller pulley on it, or drive it with its own motor.



________________________________
 From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
 
Hi David,
It is not *my* work to get the automatic to work, I am just trying to learn how to operate it after I had fixed the controller so I can use the EV, instead of it being a driveway queen.
(I bought it like my previous EV truck, sitting in someone's driveway. He literally bought it from the junk yard after the city of Santa Rosa discarded this EV - probably sitting years unused with bad batteries and a blown controller.

Original converter IIRC was ExpertEV in Penn Valley and seeing the 1994 date stamp on the EV100 control card it is likely that they converted the 5yo 1989 Ranger to electric, maintaining its automatic transmission, power steering and power brakes.
That also jives with the ODO reading just under 70k which is normal for a 5yo car. (I presume that the city never used the truck much and the last year while it was sitting in the previous owner's driveway it was initially driven a few days until the controller again failed and he could not get it to work again.) Power steering runs from a belt - I expect it is the original pump being run by a pulley on the tail shaft and the power brakes now have an electric vacuum pump.

This transmission is the A4LD which is a 4-speed (1-2-D-O) which means that it has ratios:
2.47 for first
1.47 for second
1.00 for third (Drive)
0.75 for fourth (Overdrive)
It should have two solenoids, one to control torque converter lockup and the other to disable the 3-4 (overdrive) switch.
I do not know if and how they are controlled today, I would hope that the torque converter is locked as soon as the vehicle is moving. That may actually happen as the initial launch is pretty good, only as soon as the vehicle is going the acceleration is marginal - it is good that I have some experience with underpowered cars and can usually keep up with traffic by planning ahead.

Yesterday I experimented by avoiding what I would do in an ICE - put the automatic in the first selection after N (autonmatic overdrive) and leave it there.
(except on steep down slopes)
I started by driving residential streets in 1st gear.
Wow - the performance (acceleration) was much better and it even had a noticeable "engine drag" from the added friction (probably mainly the internal fan) at high RPM.
By my estimation, I can go up to 35 MPH and still stay well under the redline of the motor.
I am guessing that I should not go beyond 4500 RPM on this 11" GE motor.

Which brings me to the freeway - although shifting from 1st to 2nd at speed is jerky, the performance is better (still not great, but that is the consequence of a relative low power in a heavy vehicle) and I can see the controller stopping its characteristic whistle when I drive above 50-55 MPH which tells me that the controller is finally able to close its bypass contactor when PWM got close enough to 100%.
I think I can go up to 60 MPH in 2nd gear without crossing redline on the motor.
This should definitely be an improvement over earlier, where I was getting about half the motor speed because the tranny went into overdrive - fine for an ICE at moderate speed but not the right thing for an electric motor!

Consumption was not really lower (which I had hoped for) because I tried to lower the default 300A pack current to 200A but kept losing speed, when I got down to 50MPH I did not want to continue this experiment to not annoy other motorists on the freeway...

When I got home and checked under the hood, I noticed two
things: the motor was somewhat cooler and did not smell, probably also due to the fan I had re-enabled. The other thing was that the steering pump was hot. This may be due to the increased speed at with which it was rotating now or there may be a bearing not OK. I was almost burning my finger when touching the pump.
So, that is a definite power loss and I may try to take the belt off to see how much power that will save...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:02 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Look closely for an electrical or vacuum input to the tranny that tells it to hold a gear at higher RPM. I had a car that I would reach down by hand and close the kickdown switch -- it would rev to redline even with gentle accelerator inputs. If you find a vacuum line try drawing a vacuum on it.

Kudos to you for getting an automatic tranny to work!



________________________________
From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor, after driving 15 mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and immediately after arriving opening the hood (to see if everything was OK) and though there were quite warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell came from the motor which was warm but not really hot to the touch. Since this motor is attached to an automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:

1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery amp meter closely while driving and I noticed that all the driving at lower speeds has the battery amps staying below 200A. Only when getting up to higher speed (above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and at top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under 110V. (more on that later) I need to connect an RPM counter (or repurpose one of the unused meters in the dash) but I expect that the motor never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like to either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get a different Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM by the time it reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100 controller can close its bypass contactor and give full battery voltage to the motor.
This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power even at "only" 120V pack.

2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced cooling. I looked better and found a 3" hose connecting to the motor from the controller enclosure. This means that I really need to put the lid on the controller and insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air into the controller enclosure and from there into the motor.

The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I compare it to the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take at 55 MPH constant - the S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already pumped the tires to 40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet. Also, this truck has not been running much in the past years, so there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the truck rolls easily on level terrain.
Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A for all the speeds below Freeway speed is due to the automatic tranny keeping the motor speed rather constant (probably around 1500 RPM) so the motor current limit will cause low power into the motor, because RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low so even if the 200 battery amps are multiplied into the 500A controller limit, the low voltage (40% duty cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes the acceleration to be very disappointing until higher speeds are finally reached and the motor RPM climb, so the duty cycle clims and the motor gets more power and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
I do have the impression that the transmission is locking (or at least it switches to the highest gear) at Freeway speeds, so that seems to be OK although not as efficient as a manual gearbox.
Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first few feet, so that is another indication of the tranny switching at the wrong points.
I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be reprogrammed to switch at higher RPMs but that would probably be the best solution - keeping the tranny continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to allow the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)

Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this truck - does anybody have experience with this and can give advice?

Thanks!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Voltswagon
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion

That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in the brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the larger mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.

Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM, not that that means much. 

The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low gear.
That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting the same level of cooling.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Bill Dube
If you just remove the belt, the pump can block the flow of fluid and
make turning quite difficult. Depending on the particular system, it
can help to disconnect the hoses from the pump and then connect them
to each other. Leave them full of fluid.



At 04:08 PM 6/8/2012, you wrote:

>I am quite used to non-power assist, so on my
>previous EV truck I disabled the pump (it was
>taxing the DC/DC too much as it was an electric
>driven power steering pump on the 12V) and I am
>actually a fan of vehicles that can NOT ruin their
>tires by scrubbing them around at standstill.
>
>My drive instructor had a very simple statement
>about manouvring in the parking lot and similar
>occasions where you have to turn the wheel much:
>"drive slow, turn fast".
>She actually scolded you if you tried to turn
>the wheels at standstill. "What! Do you want to
>try to ruin those tires? You need them to bring
>you somewhere safely at great speed, so be nice
>to them!" and she proceeded to allow you only to
>turn the wheel when the vehicle was moving somewhat.
>
>This essentially makes power steering unnecessary,
>so I will remove the belt and see how it drives.
>
>I might also pump the tires a little more, though
>I already find that I often need to hold the truck
>with the service brakes as it rolls away on what
>appears to be a flat road, so I do not think that is
>a problem. I expect that it is the automatic transmission
>that is now the biggest difference with my previous truck
>which had a manual gearbox (in 2nd gear).
>
>I might also put a voltmeter on the motor (plus a
>simple R-C filter) to get a reading of the output
>of the controller, because I still think that some
>parts in the controller get too hot and this may
>also affect the performance, but definitely the
>transmission and power steering - if each of those
>take 20% away of the ~30kW that I am sucking out of
>this 120V pack of 6V GC batteries then I suddenly
>only have about 19kW left over. Comparing that to
>my previous EV truck (S10 longbed) using 15kW at
>constant 55 MPH then we are getting close to finding
>where the power is going and not being used to move
>the vehicle, but to heat up parts...
>
>Even for the manual tranny I did not like that when
>taking a 10-20 mile freeway drive, the transmission
>did get noticeable warm, so the energy from the motor
>was used to warm up transmission and probably also
>the differential. Tires never got warm - I checked.
>
>Regards,
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
>Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
>Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 2:02 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
>
>Then kudos for getting it to work!
>
>Racers often overheat power steering pumps due to the sustained high
>rpm and lots of steering -- I have burned one up myself on a road
>racing track. A power steering pump is a surprisingly wasteful
>device -- it makes max pressure at idle, and then just circulates
>excess fluid at higher rpm. For my gasser I bought a "Turn One" pump
>that recalibrates the pressure to 80% of normal -- so I don't get
>full power steering assist until around 1200 rpm instead of 800 rpm.
>I never notice the difference unless I look for it. Other tricks you
>could do would be to put a smaller pulley on it, or drive it with
>its own motor.
>
>
>
>________________________________
>  From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Friday, June 8, 2012 1:55 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
>
>Hi David,
>It is not *my* work to get the automatic to work, I am just trying
>to learn how to operate it after I had fixed the controller so I can
>use the EV, instead of it being a driveway queen.
>(I bought it like my previous EV truck, sitting in someone's
>driveway. He literally bought it from the junk yard after the city
>of Santa Rosa discarded this EV - probably sitting years unused with
>bad batteries and a blown controller.
>
>Original converter IIRC was ExpertEV in Penn Valley and seeing the
>1994 date stamp on the EV100 control card it is likely that they
>converted the 5yo 1989 Ranger to electric, maintaining its automatic
>transmission, power steering and power brakes.
>That also jives with the ODO reading just under 70k which is normal
>for a 5yo car. (I presume that the city never used the truck much
>and the last year while it was sitting in the previous owner's
>driveway it was initially driven a few days until the controller
>again failed and he could not get it to work again.) Power steering
>runs from a belt - I expect it is the original pump being run by a
>pulley on the tail shaft and the power brakes now have an electric vacuum pump.
>
>This transmission is the A4LD which is a 4-speed (1-2-D-O) which
>means that it has ratios:
>2.47 for first
>1.47 for second
>1.00 for third (Drive)
>0.75 for fourth (Overdrive)
>It should have two solenoids, one to control torque converter lockup
>and the other to disable the 3-4 (overdrive) switch.
>I do not know if and how they are controlled today, I would hope
>that the torque converter is locked as soon as the vehicle is
>moving. That may actually happen as the initial launch is pretty
>good, only as soon as the vehicle is going the acceleration is
>marginal - it is good that I have some experience with underpowered
>cars and can usually keep up with traffic by planning ahead.
>
>Yesterday I experimented by avoiding what I would do in an ICE - put
>the automatic in the first selection after N (autonmatic overdrive)
>and leave it there.
>(except on steep down slopes)
>I started by driving residential streets in 1st gear.
>Wow - the performance (acceleration) was much better and it even had
>a noticeable "engine drag" from the added friction (probably mainly
>the internal fan) at high RPM.
>By my estimation, I can go up to 35 MPH and still stay well under
>the redline of the motor.
>I am guessing that I should not go beyond 4500 RPM on this 11" GE motor.
>
>Which brings me to the freeway - although shifting from 1st to 2nd
>at speed is jerky, the performance is better (still not great, but
>that is the consequence of a relative low power in a heavy vehicle)
>and I can see the controller stopping its characteristic whistle
>when I drive above 50-55 MPH which tells me that the controller is
>finally able to close its bypass contactor when PWM got close enough to 100%.
>I think I can go up to 60 MPH in 2nd gear without crossing redline
>on the motor.
>This should definitely be an improvement over earlier, where I was
>getting about half the motor speed because the tranny went into
>overdrive - fine for an ICE at moderate speed but not the right
>thing for an electric motor!
>
>Consumption was not really lower (which I had hoped for) because I
>tried to lower the default 300A pack current to 200A but kept losing
>speed, when I got down to 50MPH I did not want to continue this
>experiment to not annoy other motorists on the freeway...
>
>When I got home and checked under the hood, I noticed two
>things: the motor was somewhat cooler and did not smell, probably
>also due to the fan I had re-enabled. The other thing was that the
>steering pump was hot. This may be due to the increased speed at
>with which it was rotating now or there may be a bearing not OK. I
>was almost burning my finger when touching the pump.
>So, that is a definite power loss and I may try to take the belt off
>to see how much power that will save...
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
>Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>On Behalf Of David Dymaxion
>Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:02 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
>
>Look closely for an electrical or vacuum input to the tranny that
>tells it to hold a gear at higher RPM. I had a car that I would
>reach down by hand and close the kickdown switch -- it would rev to
>redline even with gentle accelerator inputs. If you find a vacuum
>line try drawing a vacuum on it.
>
>Kudos to you for getting an automatic tranny to work!
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:52 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!
>
>Tonight was the first time that I smelled my motor, after driving 15
>mins mostly freeway (60MPH) and immediately after arriving opening
>the hood (to see if everything was OK) and though there were quite
>warm components in the (EV100) controller, the smell came from the
>motor which was warm but not really hot to the touch. Since this
>motor is attached to an automatic gearbox, my expectation is that:
>
>1. The motor is being lugged. I watched the battery amp meter
>closely while driving and I noticed that all the driving at lower
>speeds has the battery amps staying below 200A. Only when getting up
>to higher speed (above 45 MPH) the battery amps start to climb and
>at top speed of 60 MPH the pack delivers 300A at just under 110V.
>(more on that later) I need to connect an RPM counter (or repurpose
>one of the unused meters in the dash) but I expect that the motor
>never gets beyond 2500 RPM.
>The truck is definitely lacking power, so I would really like to
>either convert to manual (which is a lot of work) or get a different
>Diff ratio, so the motor does reach higher RPM by the time it
>reaches the truck's top speed, so the EV100 controller can close its
>bypass contactor and give full battery voltage to the motor.
>This is an 11" GE motor so it should have enough power even at
>"only" 120V pack.
>
>2. The motor (and especially the brushes) need forced cooling. I
>looked better and found a 3" hose connecting to the motor from the
>controller enclosure. This means that I really need to put the lid
>on the controller and insert the fuse for the fan that pushes air
>into the controller enclosure and from there into the motor.
>
>The power at 60MPH of 300A at 110V is too high when I compare it to
>the 50A at 312V that my S10 used to take at 55 MPH constant - the
>S10 was 4800 lbs while this Ford Ranger is under 4400 lbs. I already
>pumped the tires to 40 PSI but I did not check their toe-in yet.
>Also, this truck has not been running much in the past years, so
>there may be a brake or bearing dragging, although the truck rolls
>easily on level terrain.
>Reason that the current is quite constant around 200A for all the
>speeds below Freeway speed is due to the automatic tranny keeping
>the motor speed rather constant (probably around 1500 RPM) so the
>motor current limit will cause low power into the motor, because
>RPMs are low, so voltage is low so duty cycle is low so even if the
>200 battery amps are multiplied into the 500A controller limit, the
>low voltage (40% duty cycle turns 200A 110V into 500A 44V) causes
>the acceleration to be very disappointing until higher speeds are
>finally reached and the motor RPM climb, so the duty cycle clims and
>the motor gets more power and that is exactly what I am experiencing.
>I do have the impression that the transmission is locking (or at
>least it switches to the highest gear) at Freeway speeds, so that
>seems to be OK although not as efficient as a manual gearbox.
>Acceleration from standstill is abysmal after the first few feet, so
>that is another indication of the tranny switching at the wrong points.
>I do not think that a 1989 Ford Ranger tranny can be reprogrammed to
>switch at higher RPMs but that would probably be the best solution -
>keeping the tranny continuously in "kickdown" mode (low gear to
>allow the input to run higher RPM and deliver more power)
>
>Before I dig into the (unknown to me) parts of this truck - does
>anybody have experience with this and can give advice?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
>Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>On Behalf Of Voltswagon
>Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:11 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion
>
>That makes sense.  My 40C difference was from the measured high in
>the brushes.  The motor case delta would be much smaller with the
>larger mass, surface area, and natural air exposure.
>
>Squirrels do have higher air-flow, but I felt mine was more than
>adequate, wish I'd gone with the 3" instead.  I think it's 150 CFM,
>not that that means much.
>
>The blower really just needs to not restrict the airflow while in low gear.
>That ensures that when stationary or in higher gear you are getting
>the same level of cooling.
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/cooling-my-
>conversion-tp4655375p4655454.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Morgan LaMoore
I've also found that removing power from a power-assist system makes
it much more difficult to steer than a manual steering system.

If your car lets you, try it some time: turn off the engine/motor
while you're coasting in neutral in a parking lot and steer. It's much
more difficult than a system that was designed for manual steering.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you just remove the belt, the pump can block the flow of fluid and
> make turning quite difficult. Depending on the particular system, it
> can help to disconnect the hoses from the pump and then connect them
> to each other. Leave them full of fluid.
>

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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Mark Grasser
Why would you not change the pulley ratio, like all the racers I know do?


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 6:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

I've also found that removing power from a power-assist system makes it much
more difficult to steer than a manual steering system.

If your car lets you, try it some time: turn off the engine/motor while
you're coasting in neutral in a parking lot and steer. It's much more
difficult than a system that was designed for manual steering.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you just remove the belt, the pump can block the flow of fluid and
> make turning quite difficult. Depending on the particular system, it
> can help to disconnect the hoses from the pump and then connect them
> to each other. Leave them full of fluid.
>

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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Morgan LaMoore
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> I've also found that removing power from a power-assist system makes
> it much more difficult to steer than a manual steering system.

I talked to a hydraulics expert, Prof. Ernie Parker at the Hennepin
Community College in Minneapolis MN. According to him, automotive power
steering pumps are specially designed. If you remove the belt, the pump
blocks the flow of fluid (unless it can rotate), so indeed, it is going
to be harder to steer with the pump not turning.

These pumps have some other odd characteristics. They need to provide
enough flow and pressure to steer at low RPM (engine idling while you
park). But as the RPM climbs, a normal pump would then have too much
pressure and flow. So the seals are designed to "leak" at high speeds to
limit the pressure.

While easy, it's also a lossy way to do it. It's equivalent to using a
resistor as a motor speed controller; it burns up the excess power as
heat. So, the pump runs hotter at high RPM, even though the power
steering is doing very little work.

If you're running your EV motor at a higher RPM than stock (to reduce
its current draw and improve its efficiency), you may need to change the
pulley sizes to keep the power steering pump speed down so it doesn't
overheat.

--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
        -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Bruce Lawton
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
I'm satisfied with my power steering pump removed. The hoses are just connected directly together, skipping where the pump used to be. If I wanted power steering in an EV conversion, I would get a pump from a Toyota MR2. It's 12V and, unlike the regular pumps that are always turning, doesn't waste so much energy.

Bruce


On Jun 09, 2012, at 03:00 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:

Why would you not change the pulley ratio, like all the racers I know do?


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 6:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

I've also found that removing power from a power-assist system makes it much
more difficult to steer than a manual steering system.

If your car lets you, try it some time: turn off the engine/motor while
you're coasting in neutral in a parking lot and steer. It's much more
difficult than a system that was designed for manual steering.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you just remove the belt, the pump can block the flow of fluid and
> make turning quite difficult. Depending on the particular system, it
> can help to disconnect the hoses from the pump and then connect them
> to each other. Leave them full of fluid.
>

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Re: cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

Cor van de Water
I just now went outsides, slacked the tensioner pulley,
removed the belt and drove the truck without power steering.
It drives in the same way as my previous EV truck, needs
a little arm-work to turn when driving slow but otherwise
handling OK, so I will leave the pump off and see how the
energy consumption compares.
Oh and the "engine braking" feel has disappeared.

I did notice something disturbing that probably is caused
by the much higher revs on the gearbox - a small puddle of
transmission fluid under the truck.... yikes!
I will need to find from where it leaks and keep an eye
on the level... Not fun.

My other car (an ICE) needs a new PCV valve so it is apart
right now, which leaves the truck to make a visit tomorrow
night - just beyond the (round-trip) range of the truck.
So, I am happy that it can plug into a regular outlet.
Even adding 3 or 4 miles per hour of charging helps when
you have a whole evening visit and are a few miles short
of a roundtrip....

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:08 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

I'm satisfied with my power steering pump removed. The hoses are just connected directly together, skipping where the pump used to be. If I wanted power steering in an EV conversion, I would get a pump from a Toyota MR2. It's 12V and, unlike the regular pumps that are always turning, doesn't waste so much energy.

Bruce


On Jun 09, 2012, at 03:00 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:

Why would you not change the pulley ratio, like all the racers I know do?


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 6:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling my conversion - changing motor RPM!

I've also found that removing power from a power-assist system makes it much more difficult to steer than a manual steering system.

If your car lets you, try it some time: turn off the engine/motor while you're coasting in neutral in a parking lot and steer. It's much more difficult than a system that was designed for manual steering.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you just remove the belt, the pump can block the flow of fluid and
> make turning quite difficult. Depending on the particular system, it
> can help to disconnect the hoses from the pump and then connect them
> to each other. Leave them full of fluid.
>

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