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cooling pumps

Electric Blue auto convertions
There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go. AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts, and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.

ev-blue.com

remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
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Re: cooling pumps

Bill Dube
It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
the continuous duty you need in a car.

AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.

You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)

I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)

         Bill D.


At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:

>There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
>and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
>run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
>and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>
>ev-blue.com
>
>remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
>is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
>-------------- next part --------------
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Re: cooling pumps

Lee Hart
Bill Dube wrote:
> It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits.
>  
There are certainly a lot of el-cheapo pumps out there; but the
situation isn't quite as grim as Bill paints it.

For our BEST kid's EVs, we got a surplus deal on a bunch of Simer pumps.
These have a 12v 15amp motor driving a centrifugal water pump. They sold
for about $100 new, but we got them used for $10. Rated life at full
load was 1000 hours, 5000 hours at 1/2 load. The motor looks exactly
like a car heater blower motor. The pump has a plastic housing, and
there are no valves to wear out. The impeller has a magnet in it, and is
driven by a toroidal magnet outside the housing on the motor shaft, so
there are no seals to wear out.

We didn't use the pumps; the kids just used the motors. They abused them
horribly, yet they still held up well. The bearings were the weak point,
as they weren't meant for heavy side loads.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: cooling pumps

Evan Tuer
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)

If you want to use what the OEMs use, this is a brushless 12V impeller
pump by (I think) Bosch.  It's the same unit used on high end cars as
a cabin heater heater circulation pump, and has quite a high flow.

There is a pair of them in my electric Berlingo van which still worked
fine when I retired it at 86,000 miles, consider that these run all
the time when charging as well as driving, so had a phenomenal amount
of hours on them.

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Re: cooling pumps

Mike Willmon
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
The Laing D4/D5 is the way to go for a car.  Quiet ceramic bearing.  
Only problem is that it's not self priming so you want to put it low  
in the system.  And they are $150 at EVSource.

On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
> a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
> Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
> it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
> they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
> pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
> the continuous duty you need in a car.
>
> AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
> controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
> never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
> fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.
>
> You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
> Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
> wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
> have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
> a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)
>
> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
>
>         Bill D.
>
>
> At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
>> There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>> controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>> one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>> AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>> givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
>> and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
>> run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
>> and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>>
>> ev-blue.com
>>
>> remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
>> is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html
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Re: cooling pumps

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Victor (Metrc Mind) offers a German-made (imagine that!) Bosch pump which he
says is designed for automotive service.  It comes with a one year warranty
and is priced just under $200.  

I have no personal experience with this pump, but other products I've gotten
from Victor have been pretty good.  

http://metricmind.com/water.htm

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: cooling pumps

Chris
In reply to this post by Bill Dube

jumping in here a little, I have no experience with them but was planning on using an inner cooler/heater pump. Don't have the specs right now but bosch makes them and can be found on high model German cars used for fluid circulation to boost the heater as well as coolent for superchargers. They are 12 volt and made for this and have a sealed pump design. If I rember right the motor slings a magnetically coupled pump shaft so the pump and motor are completely separated.

just another idea for you.

Stub
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:29:48
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps

It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
the continuous duty you need in a car.

AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.

You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)

I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)

         Bill D.


At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:

>There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
>and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
>run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
>and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>
>ev-blue.com
>
>remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
>is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
>-------------- next part --------------
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>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html 
>
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Re: cooling pumps

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Evan Tuer
I wonder if those are the same ones that I got.  Mine are 12volt Bosch
pumps designed for water cooled turbos on cars. Around $120 I think.

Z

On Monday, August 23, 2010, Evan Tuer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
>> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
>> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
>> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
>> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
>> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
>> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
>> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
>> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
>
> If you want to use what the OEMs use, this is a brushless 12V impeller
> pump by (I think) Bosch.  It's the same unit used on high end cars as
> a cabin heater heater circulation pump, and has quite a high flow.
>
> There is a pair of them in my electric Berlingo van which still worked
> fine when I retired it at 86,000 miles, consider that these run all
> the time when charging as well as driving, so had a phenomenal amount
> of hours on them.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: cooling pumps

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Pump will fail at about 50,000 miles or less. (Do the math.)

If you have a water cooled charger, or if the pump needs to run while
charging, it will fail in few months.


At 11:03 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:

>Bill Dube wrote:
> > It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> > duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> > brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits.
> >
>There are certainly a lot of el-cheapo pumps out there; but the
>situation isn't quite as grim as Bill paints it.
>
>For our BEST kid's EVs, we got a surplus deal on a bunch of Simer pumps.
>These have a 12v 15amp motor driving a centrifugal water pump. They sold
>for about $100 new, but we got them used for $10. Rated life at full
>load was 1000 hours, 5000 hours at 1/2 load. The motor looks exactly
>like a car heater blower motor. The pump has a plastic housing, and
>there are no valves to wear out. The impeller has a magnet in it, and is
>driven by a toroidal magnet outside the housing on the motor shaft, so
>there are no seals to wear out.
>
>We didn't use the pumps; the kids just used the motors. They abused them
>horribly, yet they still held up well. The bearings were the weak point,
>as they weren't meant for heavy side loads.
>
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: cooling pumps

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Mike Willmon
The fountain pump plus inverter costs less than $50.

At 11:16 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:

>The Laing D4/D5 is the way to go for a car.  Quiet ceramic bearing.
>Only problem is that it's not self priming so you want to put it low
>in the system.  And they are $150 at EVSource.
>
>On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> > duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> > brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
> > a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
> > Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
> > it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
> > they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
> > pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
> > the continuous duty you need in a car.
> >
> > AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
> > controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
> > never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
> > fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.
> >
> > You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
> > Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
> > wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
> > have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
> > a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)
> >
> > I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> > fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> > but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> > silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> > 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> > do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> > reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> > mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> > you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
> >
> >         Bill D.
> >
> >
> > At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
> >> There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
> >> controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
> >> one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
> >> AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
> >> givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
> >> and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
> >> run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
> >> and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
> >>
> >> ev-blue.com
> >>
> >> remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
> >> is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL:
> >>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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Re: cooling pumps

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Chris
Yup, that's what mine are.  Goes to a transmission cooler with the
integrated thermostatic cooling fan.  Now, if I could just get it
finished so I can test it.....

Z

On Monday, August 23, 2010,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> jumping in here a little, I have no experience with them but was planning on using an inner cooler/heater pump. Don't have the specs right now but bosch makes them and can be found on high model German cars used for fluid circulation to boost the heater as well as coolent for superchargers. They are 12 volt and made for this and have a sealed pump design. If I rember right the motor slings a magnetically coupled pump shaft so the pump and motor are completely separated.
>
> just another idea for you.
>
> Stub
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Dube <[hidden email]>
> Sender: [hidden email]
> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:29:48
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps
>
> It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
> a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
> Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
> it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
> they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
> pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
> the continuous duty you need in a car.
>
> AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
> controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
> never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
> fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.
>
> You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
> Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
> wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
> have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
> a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)
>
> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
>
>          Bill D.
>
>
> At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
>>There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>>controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>>one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>>AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>>givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
>>and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
>>run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
>>and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>>
>>ev-blue.com
>>
>>remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
>>is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
>>-------------- next part --------------
>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>URL:
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html
>>
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Re: cooling pumps

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Bill Dube wrote:
> Pump will fail at about 50,000 miles or less. (Do the math.)
>
> If you have a water cooled charger, or if the pump needs to run while
> charging, it will fail in few months.
>  
If the pump lasts 5000 hours, and you drive at an average speed of 50
mph,  it will last  50x5000 = 250,000 miles. It all depends on your
assumptions.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: cooling pumps

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I am using the Otmar AC pump system on my EV since 2000 and still going.
All my heating units, pumps and fans are all AC using commercial brass
circulating heating pumps that are design for heating systems.

The pump I use is only 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches long that you can
get from a plumbing and heater suppler. This pump has been running since
1985.

One advantage for me to use all these AC devices off a large inverter, is I
do not have to go out there, but can purchase it locally.  If its 30 below,
I can replace the unit now instead of waiting a week.

Another advantage, is that when I have the main AC plug into the EV. I can
power up all the AC units with a transfer switch to either test out these
units or can preheat the EV to a inside cable temperature to over 80 degrees
about 15 minutes before in leave. A lot of times, I can run to my
destination without any additional heating even when it was 43 below at one
time.

It is also a safety thing.  When the inverter is power off a
inverter-alternator it put enough load on the alternator to where I can have
the EV walk down a steep mountain icy road where it is common to have a lot
of vehicles slipping and sliding.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps


> It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
> a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
> Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
> it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
> they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
> pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
> the continuous duty you need in a car.
>
> AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
> controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
> never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
> fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.
>
> You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
> Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
> wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
> have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
> a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)
>
> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
>
>          Bill D.
>
>
> At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
> >There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
> >controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
> >one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
> >AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
> >givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
> >and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
> >run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
> >and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
> >
> >ev-blue.com
> >
> >remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
> >is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
> >-------------- next part --------------
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL:
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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>
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Re: cooling pumps

Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
In reply to this post by Zeke Yewdall
I am not using one for cooling but I am using a Ford intercooler pump for my
heater and it pumps hot water from the rear of the car to the core with no
problem. The hardest part for me was getting the air out of my sealed
system.  I finally added an over flow tank to purge the air and work as an
expansion area.  I run the water temp around 180 degrees.
The one I bought (made by bosh)
http://www.yatesperformance.com/en6400.html
The same one from another site.
http://www.eficomponents.com/bosch/bs_6.html


Buddy Mills
[hidden email]
 
Look mom, no gas. http://www.evalbum.com/2887

Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated.



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps

I wonder if those are the same ones that I got.  Mine are 12volt Bosch
pumps designed for water cooled turbos on cars. Around $120 I think.




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Re: cooling pumps

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Would a bilge pump or aerator pump work?
Something like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Attwood-Corporation-Aerator-Tsunami-800Gph/dp/B001O0D6KQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1282664607&sr=8-5

These pumps come with a 3 year warranty.  You could buy a couple of them
and when one quites, swap in the next and send the bad one back under
warranty.
The motor/impeller just pops out of the pump body so swapping it out would
take about a minute.

The biggest problem I see is that they move quite a bit of water (rated
for 500 gph and up)

I used one of these in a DC swamp cooler I just built, works good so far.
Two weeks running nearly constantly.

> It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
> duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
> brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is
> a contest whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-)
> Either way, it is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for
> it new. (We run laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and
> they last about a year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC
> pump will work fine out of the box, but they just don't hold up for
> the continuous duty you need in a car.
>
> AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
> controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm,
> never hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works
> fabulously. They will run trouble-free for years and years.
>
> You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
> Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump
> wattage. (If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to
> have a 120 VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add
> a bit of extra inverter capacity to allow that.)
>
> I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them
> fail before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible,
> but seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem
> silly to convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to
> 120 VAC to run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to
> do it with commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive,
> reliable parts. If you were an OEM, then you would never design a
> mass-produced car this way, but you simply must accept the fact that
> you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)
>
>          Bill D.
>
>
> At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
>>There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>>controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>>one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>>AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>>givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts,
>>and will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also
>>run a AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area
>>and can fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>>
>>ev-blue.com
>>
>>remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass
>>is to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
>>-------------- next part --------------
>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>URL:
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100823/d626ff2d/attachment.html
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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>
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Re: cooling pumps

dave cover-2
In reply to this post by Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
I've been using a Thermaltake computer cooling pump for years and it
works great. Quiet, low power consumption. Got it off eBay. Search for
Thermaltake, Koolance, Laing or Danger Den. And lot's of other parts
to go with it; tubing, fittings, radiators, reservoirs, flow meters,
etc. Most of them are 12 volt.

Dave Cover

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Buddy Mills <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am not using one for cooling but I am using a Ford intercooler pump for my
> heater and it pumps hot water from the rear of the car to the core with no
> problem. The hardest part for me was getting the air out of my sealed
> system.  I finally added an over flow tank to purge the air and work as an
> expansion area.  I run the water temp around 180 degrees.
> The one I bought (made by bosh)
> http://www.yatesperformance.com/en6400.html
> The same one from another site.
> http://www.eficomponents.com/bosch/bs_6.html
>
>
> Buddy Mills
> [hidden email]
>
> Look mom, no gas. http://www.evalbum.com/2887
>
> Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
> email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
> or greatly exaggerated.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:12 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps
>
> I wonder if those are the same ones that I got.  Mine are 12volt Bosch
> pumps designed for water cooled turbos on cars. Around $120 I think.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Re: cooling pumps

joe-22
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I have a 12VDC cooling pump in the Datsun. I tried several cheapo's that
failed in short order, but the one I have in it now is still going strong.
True, I don't run it all the time; in the PNW, you only need it in the
summer on hot days - but I agree with Lee, you can find a good DC pump that
will last, and not too expensive. I don't remember the brand, or what I paid
for it - I'll post the brand when I can dig out the info.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps


> Pump will fail at about 50,000 miles or less. (Do the math.)
>
> If you have a water cooled charger, or if the pump needs to run while
> charging, it will fail in few months.
>
>
> At 11:03 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Bill Dube wrote:
>> > It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous
>> > duty. They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has
>> > brushes, it won't last more than a few months before it quits.
>> >
>>There are certainly a lot of el-cheapo pumps out there; but the
>>situation isn't quite as grim as Bill paints it.
>>
>>For our BEST kid's EVs, we got a surplus deal on a bunch of Simer pumps.
>>These have a 12v 15amp motor driving a centrifugal water pump. They sold
>>for about $100 new, but we got them used for $10. Rated life at full
>>load was 1000 hours, 5000 hours at 1/2 load. The motor looks exactly
>>like a car heater blower motor. The pump has a plastic housing, and
>>there are no valves to wear out. The impeller has a magnet in it, and is
>>driven by a toroidal magnet outside the housing on the motor shaft, so
>>there are no seals to wear out.
>>
>>We didn't use the pumps; the kids just used the motors. They abused them
>>horribly, yet they still held up well. The bearings were the weak point,
>>as they weren't meant for heavy side loads.
>>
>>--
>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>Forget the perfect offering
>>There is a crack in everything
>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>--
>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>
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Re: cooling pumps

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
Why not take the tested and tried solution?
There are over 1 million Prius produced and
each has an inverter which is water-cooled
with a small pump circulating water....
Go to a wrecking yard that has one or more
and you are guaranteed to have a pump that
will hold up to the automotive environment
moving warm water around for years....
As designed!
 
Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 10:00 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cooling pumps

It is tough to find a 12 volt pump that will hold up to continuous duty.
They exist, but they tend to be insanely expensive. If it has brushes,
it won't last more than a few months before it quits. It is a contest
whether the seals will go out first, or the brushes. ;-) Either way, it
is a goner in a month if you paid less that $300 for it new. (We run
laser dye DC pumps at work that cost over $600, and they last about a
year or two before the motors quit.) Yes, the DC pump will work fine out
of the box, but they just don't hold up for the continuous duty you need
in a car.

AC pumps are inexpensive and are designed to run continuously. The EV
controller (and perhaps motor) just make the water slightly warm, never
hot, so a good quality 60 Hz submersible fountain pump works fabulously.
They will run trouble-free for years and years.

You can buy a small 12 VDC to 60 Hz 120 VAC inverter for under $25.
Look for one with no fan that is rated at least twice the pump wattage.
(If you are in the design stage, it can be _very_ useful to have a 120
VAC outlet inside the car for laptop charging, etc. so add a bit of
extra inverter capacity to allow that.)

I've tried quite a few DC pumps and had each and every one of them fail
before I finally took Otmar's sage advice and went the sensible, but
seemingly roundabout, route of running an AC pump. It does seem silly to
convert from pack voltage, down to 12 volts, then back up to 120 VAC to
run a small pump, but it turns out to be the best way to do it with
commercially-available, off-the-shelf, inexpensive, reliable parts. If
you were an OEM, then you would never design a mass-produced car this
way, but you simply must accept the fact that you are _not_ an OEM. ;-)

         Bill D.


At 08:39 AM 8/23/2010, you wrote:
>There are alot of very cheap small water pumps out there to cool a
>controller, most wont work well.. BUT !!! running a inverter to make
>one work is just plain usless, a 12 volt pump is the only way to go.
>AND !!! if there not rated for HOT WATER, they will fail, thats a
>givven . The ones I use are rated for 4.5 GPM, hot water, 12 volts, and

>will shoot a stream across the garage when I tested them. I also run a
>AC condencer for a radiator, very thin, lots of cooling area and can
>fit just about anywhere, with or with out a cooling fan.
>
>ev-blue.com
>
>remember...its not that the glass is 1/2 full or empty, or the glass is

>to big,,BUT !!!!, dogs still get fleas
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