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electriccarpartscompany.com?

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Does anybody know if electriccarpartscompany.com is legit and still in business?
I asked them for a battery+BMS quote over a week ago and haven't heard a peep. Followed up with an email a couple of days ago, and have heard nothing. 
I'm trying to upgrade the battery pack in our Solectria E-10 pickup with CALB CA-100s and they have a good price and also sell the Orion BMS.
Anyone dealt with them?
-Tom


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Re: electriccarpartscompany.com?

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I bought a shunt from them a couple of months ago... I believe through Ebay.  Everything was legit and they delivered in a timely manner.  It was only a $30 part though, so not a lot of risk.

Damon
________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Hudson via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Tom Hudson
Subject: [EVDL] electriccarpartscompany.com?

Does anybody know if electriccarpartscompany.com is legit and still in business?
I asked them for a battery+BMS quote over a week ago and haven't heard a peep. Followed up with an email a couple of days ago, and have heard nothing.
I'm trying to upgrade the battery pack in our Solectria E-10 pickup with CALB CA-100s and they have a good price and also sell the Orion BMS.
Anyone dealt with them?
-Tom


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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Re: electriccarpartscompany.com?

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have dealt with them many times.  They started out doing conversions and
they did both of mine (neither of which I own anymore).  I have also
purchased parts from them and never had any problems. Carl Clark is, in my
opinion, a very honorable person.  BUT I have not had any contact with them
in a few years.

- Peter Flipsen

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Tom Hudson via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Does anybody know if electriccarpartscompany.com is legit and still in
> business?
> I asked them for a battery+BMS quote over a week ago and haven't heard a
> peep. Followed up with an email a couple of days ago, and have heard
> nothing.
> I'm trying to upgrade the battery pack in our Solectria E-10 pickup with
> CALB CA-100s and they have a good price and also sell the Orion BMS.
> Anyone dealt with them?
> -Tom
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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Re: electriccarpartscompany.com?

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105314 <--
Maybe someone trying to scam them or defame them or screwed up his
cells and tried to blame them, but one guy says not to trust their
batteries.
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Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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It turns out there was some sort of website form problem and I was able to talk to Matt at
the Electric Car Parts Company today -- working on the order now.

So here's a troubling issue with my setup:

I'm planning to set up the batteries in my Solectria E-10 pickup as a single string of
buddy pairs of CALB CA100 lithium-ions. I'm working with a nominal 144V setup in this
truck and figure the buddy pairs are the best way to limit the current each battery module
sees. I have 56 of them from my Solectria Force now, and my plan is to use them and pick
up additional batteries to bring the total to 96 modules (48 buddy pairs), and set the
whole thing up with an Orion BMS to wrangle the batteries and keep them in good shape.

I wanted to be sure that I had 56 good batteries from the Force so I opened up the battery
boxes today.  All the modules look great.  I started taking voltage readings and all the
batteries were between 3.31 and 3.34 volts -- except for two of them.

Those two were ZERO VOLTS, and show ZERO OHMS resistance.

Is this a common failure mode of lithium-ions (or the CALB modules)?  I'm thinking that
I'd better set up some kind of fusing between the buddy pairs because if one of the pair
fails in this way, it's going to present a dead short to its buddy -- and nothing good is
going to come of that.

Comments?  Suggestions?  I'm wondering what size & type fuse I should use on the buddy
pairs to deal with this scenario and if such a fuse would be enough. I think the maximum
current draw on the truck will be around 480A (two Brusa AMC320 motor controllers @ max
240A each).

-Tom
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Tom Hudson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Those two were ZERO VOLTS, and show ZERO OHMS resistance.
>
> Is this a common failure mode of lithium-ions (or the CALB modules)?  I'm
> thinking that I'd better set up some kind of fusing between the buddy pairs
> because if one of the pair fails in this way, it's going to present a dead
> short to its buddy -- and nothing good is going to come of that.

I don't know how common of a failure mode that is but I suspect it
could happen. If they were placed upside down (terminals facing down)
there is evidence that that has corroded the internal contacts to the
terminal bolts but that caused an open circuit situation, not a dead
short.

Internally the cells are made up of several layers which are
"buddy-paired" at the terminals. I put 20 buddy pairs of TS-LFP100AHA
cells in my Gizmo back in January 2010 and they are still going
strong. While the probability of any given cell failing goes up with
the number of cells I claim that a 200Ah cell made up of the same size
materials as the 100Ah cells would also have a higher probability of
failure. Definitely give each cell a cycle test and if you have the
time a capacity test. I would recommend that you then pair them up
where the capacity of the pairs ends up being nearly identical. I did
a rudimentary version of this for my Gizmo and it has worked out just
fine.

Some claim that you have to have the cells at exactly the same SOC
before connecting the buddy pairs. Theoretically this doesn't make
sense and I have also tested it and practice shows it really doesn't
matter. As long as their voltages are similar the initial current
isn't that great. Somewhere in the EVDL archives I posted the numbers
from one of my tests of this. IIRC it maxed at ~100A for a second or
so and quickly dropped to below 20A or so. Charging the cell pair to
3.4V or discharging to 2.8V or so brings the two cells in line with
each other.

The 100% SOC resting voltage of LFP cells from CALB and TS is 3.38V.
Make sure you aren't hammering the cells with 3.6+V on every charge
trying to equalize them. A good set of cells doesn't drift that fast.
I have been running my pack top balanced without attached BMS boards
for several years with no issues. I recently sold the Gizmo and I
don't trust the new owner to be able to be the "human BMS" so I am
going to be reinstalling the BMS boards I have. Furthermore, it is an
unknown how much the cells will drift as they age. They have been fine
so far but I'm not driving it now so can't do my annual voltage check.
I've been charging to 3.465V/cell with my Zivan chargers and the
resting voltage with no load after 12hours has been 3.36V so I know
I'm not overcharging them.

HTH,

--
David D. Nelson
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I guarantee that the inferior Chinese cells will change capacity as they
are cycled and not by just a few percent.

Running them without a BMS is a recipe for disaster. Damaged cells at
best, a fire at worst.

All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.

Al




On 8/6/2018 7:48 PM, David Nelson via EV wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Tom Hudson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Those two were ZERO VOLTS, and show ZERO OHMS resistance.
>>
>> Is this a common failure mode of lithium-ions (or the CALB modules)?  I'm
>> thinking that I'd better set up some kind of fusing between the buddy pairs
>> because if one of the pair fails in this way, it's going to present a dead
>> short to its buddy -- and nothing good is going to come of that.
> I don't know how common of a failure mode that is but I suspect it
> could happen. If they were placed upside down (terminals facing down)
> there is evidence that that has corroded the internal contacts to the
> terminal bolts but that caused an open circuit situation, not a dead
> short.
>
> Internally the cells are made up of several layers which are
> "buddy-paired" at the terminals. I put 20 buddy pairs of TS-LFP100AHA
> cells in my Gizmo back in January 2010 and they are still going
> strong. While the probability of any given cell failing goes up with
> the number of cells I claim that a 200Ah cell made up of the same size
> materials as the 100Ah cells would also have a higher probability of
> failure. Definitely give each cell a cycle test and if you have the
> time a capacity test. I would recommend that you then pair them up
> where the capacity of the pairs ends up being nearly identical. I did
> a rudimentary version of this for my Gizmo and it has worked out just
> fine.
>
> Some claim that you have to have the cells at exactly the same SOC
> before connecting the buddy pairs. Theoretically this doesn't make
> sense and I have also tested it and practice shows it really doesn't
> matter. As long as their voltages are similar the initial current
> isn't that great. Somewhere in the EVDL archives I posted the numbers
> from one of my tests of this. IIRC it maxed at ~100A for a second or
> so and quickly dropped to below 20A or so. Charging the cell pair to
> 3.4V or discharging to 2.8V or so brings the two cells in line with
> each other.
>
> The 100% SOC resting voltage of LFP cells from CALB and TS is 3.38V.
> Make sure you aren't hammering the cells with 3.6+V on every charge
> trying to equalize them. A good set of cells doesn't drift that fast.
> I have been running my pack top balanced without attached BMS boards
> for several years with no issues. I recently sold the Gizmo and I
> don't trust the new owner to be able to be the "human BMS" so I am
> going to be reinstalling the BMS boards I have. Furthermore, it is an
> unknown how much the cells will drift as they age. They have been fine
> so far but I'm not driving it now so can't do my annual voltage check.
> I've been charging to 3.465V/cell with my Zivan chargers and the
> resting voltage with no load after 12hours has been 3.36V so I know
> I'm not overcharging them.
>
> HTH,
>

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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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On 6 Aug 2018 at 22:51, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.

I know about the used and new OEM EV (Leaf, Volt, etc) cells, but are there
ANY LiFePO4 cells available to the hobbyist (especially at a more or less
affordable price) that aren't Chinese?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Waselectriccarpartscompany.com?)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have experience with  LiFePO4 that discharged to below 1V and reviving them.
Some rebounded and were fine, with very low self-discharge even after many months of sitting at 3.2V.
However, a few did not take a charge but instead turned into resistors and with continued (low current) charging, became ever lower in resistance. So, if they would be part of a buddy pair then that would easily lead to thermal runaway and a fire.
Note that this is not unique to Li batteries. Many moons ago a long time EV’er in Petaluma lost his barn with EVs inside due to a fire that appeared to have started in a Lead-Acid buddy paired pack. Remember that Lead cells also have a tendency to fail, I had a colleague that for more than a year drove an old pickup truck that had a 10V battery. Most of the time that still started his truck just fine, so he kept using it instead of replacing, I even drove that truck to San Diego and back to Silicon Valley with a Leaf in tow, with that battery, 2 years ago and last I heard, now 2 years later, he is still using that 10V battery…
One way to avoid fire from a short in a cell is to have two individual strings, not buddy pairs.
If one cell shorts, it just pulls that string a little lower but not catastrophically much and any good battery install must have a fuse in each parallel path, so one fuse per string.
Note that a Tesla pack has 60-90ish parallel cells, each with an individual fuse (doubling as its connecting wire to the bus bar).
I have heard suggestions to interconnect the cells in parallel strings with thin wire to allow them to balance, I do not know the wisdom of such hybrid structure. If you are using a BMS it might be helpful to avoid two complete BMS’es on the two parallel strings, though that is what I chose to use: two Leaf packs, each with its individual BMS and the complete strings are paralleled, with a fuse in each string. My battery box has an off-the-shelf 3-phase ON/OFF switch and I have wired 2 of the contacts to break each string individually.
Hope this clarifies.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: David Nelson via EV
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 4:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: David Nelson
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Waselectriccarpartscompany.com?)

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Tom Hudson via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Those two were ZERO VOLTS, and show ZERO OHMS resistance.
>
> Is this a common failure mode of lithium-ions (or the CALB modules)?  I'm
> thinking that I'd better set up some kind of fusing between the buddy pairs
> because if one of the pair fails in this way, it's going to present a dead
> short to its buddy -- and nothing good is going to come of that.

I don't know how common of a failure mode that is but I suspect it
could happen. If they were placed upside down (terminals facing down)
there is evidence that that has corroded the internal contacts to the
terminal bolts but that caused an open circuit situation, not a dead
short.

Internally the cells are made up of several layers which are
"buddy-paired" at the terminals. I put 20 buddy pairs of TS-LFP100AHA
cells in my Gizmo back in January 2010 and they are still going
strong. While the probability of any given cell failing goes up with
the number of cells I claim that a 200Ah cell made up of the same size
materials as the 100Ah cells would also have a higher probability of
failure. Definitely give each cell a cycle test and if you have the
time a capacity test. I would recommend that you then pair them up
where the capacity of the pairs ends up being nearly identical. I did
a rudimentary version of this for my Gizmo and it has worked out just
fine.

Some claim that you have to have the cells at exactly the same SOC
before connecting the buddy pairs. Theoretically this doesn't make
sense and I have also tested it and practice shows it really doesn't
matter. As long as their voltages are similar the initial current
isn't that great. Somewhere in the EVDL archives I posted the numbers
from one of my tests of this. IIRC it maxed at ~100A for a second or
so and quickly dropped to below 20A or so. Charging the cell pair to
3.4V or discharging to 2.8V or so brings the two cells in line with
each other.

The 100% SOC resting voltage of LFP cells from CALB and TS is 3.38V.
Make sure you aren't hammering the cells with 3.6+V on every charge
trying to equalize them. A good set of cells doesn't drift that fast.
I have been running my pack top balanced without attached BMS boards
for several years with no issues. I recently sold the Gizmo and I
don't trust the new owner to be able to be the "human BMS" so I am
going to be reinstalling the BMS boards I have. Furthermore, it is an
unknown how much the cells will drift as they age. They have been fine
so far but I'm not driving it now so can't do my annual voltage check.
I've been charging to 3.465V/cell with my Zivan chargers and the
resting voltage with no load after 12hours has been 3.36V so I know
I'm not overcharging them.

HTH,

--
David D. Nelson
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Waselectriccarpartscompany.com?)

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You would need 2 BMSes, but IMO (I am not an expert) it would be safer to
make 2 series strings, and then parallel the strings.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Waselectriccarpartscompany.com?)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I agree with Cor. I have examples of Thundersky, CALB, and GBS LiFePO3 cells that have failed by turning into resistors.

>From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
>You would need 2 BMSes, but IMO (I am not an expert) it would be safer to
>make 2 series strings, and then parallel the strings.

That's the method I've used. The two strings are also not connected directly in parallel. If a cell in either string fails shorted, the higher-voltage string dumps *all* its power into the lower-voltage string.
This can kill the good string, overcharge the bad string, and set Fire to the shorted cell!

Instead, add a commoning diode in series with each string (anode to +, cathode to main contactor + (to controller +). These diodes prevent the higher-voltage string from feeding current into the lower-voltage string. The commoning diodes are BIG -- they have to carry the maximum battery current.

For charging, you need a second pair of commoning diodes from the charger + to each string's +. These diodes can be much smaller, as they only need to carry the charger's maximum current.



--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I really have to beg to differ about CALBs.
My Focus has 45 CA180 cells that have been on the road for about five
years without BMS. Once a year, sometimes twice, I pump a few amp hours
into the lowest cells with with a radio control type charger.
That usually involves about five cells.
I do have a homemade battery monitor with a display, expanded voltage
scale, that I use to keep a eye on the pack while driving. And, I do
datalog each cell all the time while driving and charging. In the
charging sweet spot, about 3.4 volts, all 45 cells are in a tight range
of about 25 mV. I consider that basically magic!
My battery monitor also will stop the J1772 if any single cell voltage
gets too high.
So, that my experience with CALB cells,

Tom



On 8/6/2018 7:51 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> I guarantee that the inferior Chinese cells will change capacity as
> they are cycled and not by just a few percent.
>
> Running them without a BMS is a recipe for disaster. Damaged cells at
> best, a fire at worst.
>
> All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
> On 8/6/2018 7:48 PM, David Nelson via EV wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Tom Hudson via EV
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Those two were ZERO VOLTS, and show ZERO OHMS resistance.
>>>
>>> Is this a common failure mode of lithium-ions (or the CALB
>>> modules)?  I'm
>>> thinking that I'd better set up some kind of fusing between the
>>> buddy pairs
>>> because if one of the pair fails in this way, it's going to present
>>> a dead
>>> short to its buddy -- and nothing good is going to come of that.
>> I don't know how common of a failure mode that is but I suspect it
>> could happen. If they were placed upside down (terminals facing down)
>> there is evidence that that has corroded the internal contacts to the
>> terminal bolts but that caused an open circuit situation, not a dead
>> short.
>>
>> Internally the cells are made up of several layers which are
>> "buddy-paired" at the terminals. I put 20 buddy pairs of TS-LFP100AHA
>> cells in my Gizmo back in January 2010 and they are still going
>> strong. While the probability of any given cell failing goes up with
>> the number of cells I claim that a 200Ah cell made up of the same size
>> materials as the 100Ah cells would also have a higher probability of
>> failure. Definitely give each cell a cycle test and if you have the
>> time a capacity test. I would recommend that you then pair them up
>> where the capacity of the pairs ends up being nearly identical. I did
>> a rudimentary version of this for my Gizmo and it has worked out just
>> fine.
>>
>> Some claim that you have to have the cells at exactly the same SOC
>> before connecting the buddy pairs. Theoretically this doesn't make
>> sense and I have also tested it and practice shows it really doesn't
>> matter. As long as their voltages are similar the initial current
>> isn't that great. Somewhere in the EVDL archives I posted the numbers
>> from one of my tests of this. IIRC it maxed at ~100A for a second or
>> so and quickly dropped to below 20A or so. Charging the cell pair to
>> 3.4V or discharging to 2.8V or so brings the two cells in line with
>> each other.
>>
>> The 100% SOC resting voltage of LFP cells from CALB and TS is 3.38V.
>> Make sure you aren't hammering the cells with 3.6+V on every charge
>> trying to equalize them. A good set of cells doesn't drift that fast.
>> I have been running my pack top balanced without attached BMS boards
>> for several years with no issues. I recently sold the Gizmo and I
>> don't trust the new owner to be able to be the "human BMS" so I am
>> going to be reinstalling the BMS boards I have. Furthermore, it is an
>> unknown how much the cells will drift as they age. They have been fine
>> so far but I'm not driving it now so can't do my annual voltage check.
>> I've been charging to 3.465V/cell with my Zivan chargers and the
>> resting voltage with no load after 12hours has been 3.36V so I know
>> I'm not overcharging them.
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have 48 CALB CA100's in my truck, also 5 years old. I've never even
had to top off any. I checked them in the Spring and they were all
within 2 thousandths of a volt of each other. In July I had one of those
*doh* events and drained the *entire* pack to 9 volts. I recharged the
pack and they were all within 2 thousandths of a volt of each
other...except for 1 which read 0 volts. I had a spare which I charged
externally to the same voltage as those in the pack. Two charge cycles
and I checked again this weekend. All the same still. So I'm with Tom.
CALBs are magic.

--Rick


On 8/7/2018 6:48 PM, Tom Jones via EV wrote:

> I really have to beg to differ about CALBs.
> My Focus has 45 CA180 cells that have been on the road for about five
> years without BMS. Once a year, sometimes twice, I pump a few amp
> hours into the lowest cells with with a radio control type charger.
> That usually involves about five cells.
> I do have a homemade battery monitor with a display, expanded voltage
> scale, that I use to keep a eye on the pack while driving. And, I do
> datalog each cell all the time while driving and charging. In the
> charging sweet spot, about 3.4 volts, all 45 cells are in a tight
> range of about 25 mV. I consider that basically magic!
> My battery monitor also will stop the J1772 if any single cell voltage
> gets too high.
> So, that my experience with CALB cells,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> On 8/6/2018 7:51 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>> I guarantee that the inferior Chinese cells will change capacity as
>> they are cycled and not by just a few percent.
>>
>> Running them without a BMS is a recipe for disaster. Damaged cells at
>> best, a fire at worst.
>>
>> All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.
>>
>> Al

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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.

I would not go so far as to call them "junk", though I too have bought
examples that were certainly of very poor quality.

Chinese business practices also leave a lot to be desired. The specs
aren't honest, and warranty and support are nonexistent.

You get what you pay for (and DON'T get what you DIDN'T pay for). :-(
--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Lithium Ion buddy pairing? (Was electriccarpartscompany.com?)

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On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Alan Arrison via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guarantee that the inferior Chinese cells will change capacity as they are
> cycled and not by just a few percent.
>
> Running them without a BMS is a recipe for disaster. Damaged cells at best,
> a fire at worst.
>
> All the Chinese cells are junk, especially the CALBS.
>
> Al

I'm so glad my cells didn't talk to you! Manufactured 11/2009,
installed and on the road 1/2010. No attached BMS other than split
pack voltage monitor since 7/2011 and all 40 cells are doing just fine
when checked in 3/2018. End of charge voltage 3.465V held for 45 min
during the CV stage with current tapering to 0A.

Clearly your abslolute about Chinese cells doesn't fit. Sorry you had
a bad experience.


--
David D. Nelson
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