fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

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fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

themotorman
As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home in a few
hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4 but
still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery exchange
system.
http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
ron

--
When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not to
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Dave Davidson-3
Actually, a few hours is easily doable. For example, the Mini E took,
I believe, 3.5 hours from empty to full using a standard 240 volt / 50
amp circuit (same as electric cook stove or RV).

On 3/13/10, ron doctors <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home in a few
> hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
> Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4 but
> still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery exchange
> system.
> http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
> ron
>
> --
> When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not to
> do.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by themotorman
Battery swapping is impractical and unnecessary.  Of course you can recharge at home in a few hours, most people drive less than 40 miles a day so that's all the recharging you'll need to do, about 10kwh worth at 250wh/mi.  That's less than 2 hours at 240 volts 30 amps.  All this hype about fast charging and swapping is completely misplaced.

themotorman wrote
As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home in a few
hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4 but
still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery exchange
system.
http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
ron

--
When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not to
do.
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Evan Tuer
In reply to this post by themotorman
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 10:38 PM, ron doctors <[hidden email]> wrote:
> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home in a few
> hours let alone a few minutes!!

Not true.

My girlfriend's car was used yesterday morning on a 45 mile journey.
It then had a 1 hour charge at 10kW before we went out again on a 60
mile round trip.

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Jukka Järvinen-3
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
2010/3/14 AMPhibian <[hidden email]>:
> All this hype about fast charging
> and swapping is completely misplaced.

I could not agree more.

Have you also noticed that most of the fuzz about this comes from
people who NEVER have driven an EV for a longer time. Mostly they have
read about lead acid EVs and how bad it was when the reporter misused
the car and did stupid things.. and ended up blaming the car..

-akkuJukka

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
I actually quite like the battery swap concept - tho maybe mostly  
because I remember my Father suggesting it in a conversation we had on  
a long drive from Perth to Albany in Western Australia where we were  
living at the time (sheep farming, but I was at school in the UK and  
only went back twice a year) 35 years ago!

For some reason that conversation always stuck with me but it really  
puzzles me now why I didn't get into EVs years ago when I had the  
ideal opportunity - when I was at college studying engineering - first  
HND later MSc.

Anyway, let's not diss Mr Agassi - he may turn out to be wrong in the  
end but in the meantime he is trying very hard to remove one of the 2  
principle obstacles to widespread acceptance and implementation of EVs  
worldwide (the other - bigger one - being cost, of course).  He is  
also raising the profile of EVs generally and in a very positive way.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

On 14 Mar 2010, at 14:08, AMPhibian wrote:

>
> Battery swapping is impractical and unnecessary.  Of course you can  
> recharge
> at home in a few hours, most people drive less than 40 miles a day  
> so that's
> all the recharging you'll need to do, about 10kwh worth at 250wh/
> mi.  That's
> less than 2 hours at 240 volts 30 amps.  All this hype about fast  
> charging
> and swapping is completely misplaced.
>
>
> themotorman wrote:
>>
>> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home  
>> in a few
>> hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
>> Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4  
>> but
>> still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery
>> exchange
>> system.
>> http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
>> ron
>>
>> --
>> When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing  
>> what not
>> to
>> do.
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/fast-charge-NO-Battery-exchange-YES-tp1592045p1592461.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive  
> at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

AMPhibian
Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking extra batteries is a nightmare.  The engineering of a swappable pack adds cost to the vehicle, building extra packs and moving them around to various swap stations adds cost.  You'd never get a single universal pack anyway.  Theoretically you'd need an extra battery for every EV, and we know batteries are the most expensive component at this point, so that would drive up the cost for every EV.  I see Better Place as offering nothing but a profit opportunity for itself and I think it's destined to fail.  Think of it this way, if your gas tank was full every time you left your house, how often would you stop at a gas station and pay a higher price to fill up?

martinwinlow wrote
I actually quite like the battery swap concept - tho maybe mostly  
because I remember my Father suggesting it in a conversation we had on  
a long drive from Perth to Albany in Western Australia where we were  
living at the time (sheep farming, but I was at school in the UK and  
only went back twice a year) 35 years ago!

For some reason that conversation always stuck with me but it really  
puzzles me now why I didn't get into EVs years ago when I had the  
ideal opportunity - when I was at college studying engineering - first  
HND later MSc.

Anyway, let's not diss Mr Agassi - he may turn out to be wrong in the  
end but in the meantime he is trying very hard to remove one of the 2  
principle obstacles to widespread acceptance and implementation of EVs  
worldwide (the other - bigger one - being cost, of course).  He is  
also raising the profile of EVs generally and in a very positive way.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

On 14 Mar 2010, at 14:08, AMPhibian wrote:

>
> Battery swapping is impractical and unnecessary.  Of course you can  
> recharge
> at home in a few hours, most people drive less than 40 miles a day  
> so that's
> all the recharging you'll need to do, about 10kwh worth at 250wh/
> mi.  That's
> less than 2 hours at 240 volts 30 amps.  All this hype about fast  
> charging
> and swapping is completely misplaced.
>
>
> themotorman wrote:
>>
>> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home  
>> in a few
>> hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
>> Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4  
>> but
>> still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery
>> exchange
>> system.
>> http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
>> ron
>>
>> --
>> When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing  
>> what not
>> to
>> do.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/fast-charge-NO-Battery-exchange-YES-tp1592045p1592461.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive  
> at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!Nah! Fast Charge!

Bob Rice-2
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
   Hi EVerybody;

   If I may sound off, too, on the Battery Swap thing, too? It worked 120
YEARS ago, in NYC, for Taxis. Because they, the cars, were ALL the same.
Owned by one company, hence SERIOUS standardazation of the badd-ery packs!
FEW airport runs!  Big deal, ya say? But IF the Better Place thing gets
going, there is going to be MORE standards, battery shapes, voltages, etc?
You have a A2z? DAMN!  I need a A2 zb-3 for MY car? @#$%^! It! But we HAVE
made a bit of progress in battery's in the last 100 years or so? SOME, but
not as much, from a Country that has relegated Polio to the history
books,even 78 rpm records, made nuke power a reality, on and on. Not to
diss"Better Place" but how many EV's has HE built and driven??

   OK Here I go; In MY perfect World Fast charging is the way to go! As
SOMEBODY pointed out on here, a Fast Charge "Station" can have a celler, I
know ya don't HAVE cellers on the Left Coast!? full of submarine batteries,
"trickle" charging at a few hunded amps off a SERIOUS 480 volt power drop,
like Wal*Marts have. You charge yur car at a zillion amps for 10-30 minutes.
While yur IN the Wal*Mart, or Burgler King, Home Despot, getting CHARGED
there, too.After all, MOST production cars will have a 100 plus mile range,
to start with? Sooo IF ya plan on driving out to PDX for the races you stop
for lunch, go ANOTHER 100 miles, or more stop AGAIN, for another charge,
coffee, piddle, stretch break, see a museum, etc? After all as Cunard Lines,
the Boat People,Queen Merry drivers, used to say;" Getting there is Half the
Fun"? What's yur hurry, anyhow? FLY Jet Blue, if you hafta get there quick?
They surprise me; They leave and ARRIVE on time! A novel concept! I mean
other than die hard geeks like me, how many sheeple drive X country, anyhow?
I thought so; damn few?!So Godamn expensive, as ya eat, sleep at Motels,
etc!? Train's nice, too, you can LOOK at the scenery, and Cell Fone legally,
too!Same for Greyhound too? The new Diseasel busses are quite cumfy,
nowadaze!

   So, range anx? Not a problem IF we have a 100 mile plus car? The Tesla
"S" model MIGHT have 250-300 mile range? good enough for me, and PROBABLY
you too? BUT IF I can charge in say half hour? The 5 minute stuff is a bit
far fetched, but a slightly longer time? Difference? Cables the size of my
ARM for 5 min. My pinky for half hour? What's yur Damn HURRY anyhow<G>??

   Seeya

   Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!


>I actually quite like the battery swap concept - tho maybe mostly
> because I remember my Father suggesting it in a conversation we had on
> a long drive from Perth to Albany in Western Australia where we were
> living at the time (sheep farming, but I was at school in the UK and
> only went back twice a year) 35 years ago!
>
> For some reason that conversation always stuck with me but it really
> puzzles me now why I didn't get into EVs years ago when I had the
> ideal opportunity - when I was at college studying engineering - first
> HND later MSc.
>
> Anyway, let's not diss Mr Agassi - he may turn out to be wrong in the
> end but in the meantime he is trying very hard to remove one of the 2
> principle obstacles to widespread acceptance and implementation of EVs
> worldwide (the other - bigger one - being cost, of course).  He is
> also raising the profile of EVs generally and in a very positive way.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
> On 14 Mar 2010, at 14:08, AMPhibian wrote:
>
>>
>> Battery swapping is impractical and unnecessary.  Of course you can
>> recharge
>> at home in a few hours, most people drive less than 40 miles a day
>> so that's
>> all the recharging you'll need to do, about 10kwh worth at 250wh/
>> mi.  That's
>> less than 2 hours at 240 volts 30 amps.  All this hype about fast
>> charging
>> and swapping is completely misplaced.
>>
>>
>> themotorman wrote:
>>>
>>> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home
>>> in a few
>>> hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
>>> Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4
>>> but
>>> still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery
>>> exchange
>>> system.
>>> http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
>>> ron
>>>
>>> --
>>> When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing
>>> what not
>>> to
>>> do.
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100313/674de64b/attachment.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n4.nabble.com/fast-charge-NO-Battery-exchange-YES-tp1592045p1592461.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
AMPhibian wrote:
> Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
> helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking extra
> batteries is a nightmare.

Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge. If the EV
isn't designed for it, it can take hours to swap a pack.

But, there are EVs with quick-change battery packs. It depends on
designing the vehicle specifically to allow it, and standardizing on the
packs so they are interchangeable. Fork lifts have done it this way for
decades.

Another example comes to mind. Bob Schneeviess's "Sno-White" race car
had a quick-change battery pack. He used perfectly ordinary 6v golf cart
batteries, each with a handle. The battery boxes had a hinged lid, and
ran down each side of the car. The lids had connectors to make the
connections to the batteries. Pop open the lids, and all the batteries
were disconnected and loose. Simply lift them out, and drop in a
replacement. Close the lids, and the batteries were reconnected and
you're ready to go.

It was impressive to see him pull into the pits during a race, and swap
the pack in just minutes with only muscle power. :-)

> You'd never get a single universal pack anyway.

That's a political and marketing issue, not an engineering problem.

 From an engineering perspective, there is no good reason why we
couldn't pick a standard battery size (group 31, for example), and
engineer replacements with any kind of cells (lead-acid, nimh, lithium),
any amphour capacity, and built-in electronics so it's a drop-in
replacement. Add a connector and a handle, and you have a quick-change
battery module.

> Theoretically you'd need an extra battery for every EV, and we know
> batteries are the most expensive component at this point, so that would
> drive up the cost for every EV.

True; but two pack also doubles the total miles driven before they need
replacement. The up-front cost is higher, but your cost per mile is the
same.

> I see Better Place as offering nothing but a profit opportunity for itself

Agreed; but they also offer the consumer increased convenience and
"insurance" against an expensive battery failure. Some people are
willing to pay for such things.

Enough people to make Better Place a viable business? I don't know.

> if your gas tank was full every time you left your house, how
> often would you stop at a gas station and pay a higher price to fill up?

Very rarely. But, I'd still do it when I needed to go farther than I
could get on one tank.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!Nah! Fast Charge!

Peter C. Thompson
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2
Hi Folks,

My $0.02 worth on this topic.  I make the drive from San Diego up north
to San Jose a couple times a year - roughly 450 miles one way (family
lives up there).  Currently the drive takes 7.5 hours (not counting
stops).  Adding in the fuel stops adds 20 minutes now (2 stops - one
every 150-200 miles). So for these long drives, I would not drive an EV
if I had to make a 30 minute stop every 100 miles - that is just not
gonna happen.  Now if the stop were 10 minutes (as they are now), then
it would be much more reasonable.  Plus the range would need to improve
from 100 to 150 or 200 miles.

There are a LOT of people that have to do these sorts of long distance
drives, and can't with an EV unless they have a range extender (aka
Hybrid).

So I see a few use cases to consider:
1) Personal city driving.  No apparent need for a replaceable battery pack.
2) Business city driving.  Possible need for replaceable pack, but
multiple charging stations would also work. However, for business, Time
Is Money.
3) Personal long distance.  Fast charging (30 minutes) might be
acceptable to people that are not in a hurry.  Replaceable packs are
much closer to current potty break times.
4) Business long distance.  Will fast charging be good enough for large
trucks?  I suspect that replaceable will be necessary.

For my personal case, I am in use case 1 almost all the time - hence my
electric 914.  For use case 3, I use my Honda CRV, as it can carry
myself,  my wife, my dog, and lots of luggage without breaking a sweat.

Cheers,
    Peter

Bob Rice wrote:

>    Hi EVerybody;
>
>    If I may sound off, too, on the Battery Swap thing, too? It worked 120
> YEARS ago, in NYC, for Taxis. Because they, the cars, were ALL the same.
> Owned by one company, hence SERIOUS standardazation of the badd-ery packs!
> FEW airport runs!  Big deal, ya say? But IF the Better Place thing gets
> going, there is going to be MORE standards, battery shapes, voltages, etc?
> You have a A2z? DAMN!  I need a A2 zb-3 for MY car? @#$%^! It! But we HAVE
> made a bit of progress in battery's in the last 100 years or so? SOME, but
> not as much, from a Country that has relegated Polio to the history
> books,even 78 rpm records, made nuke power a reality, on and on. Not to
> diss"Better Place" but how many EV's has HE built and driven??
>
>    OK Here I go; In MY perfect World Fast charging is the way to go! As
> SOMEBODY pointed out on here, a Fast Charge "Station" can have a celler, I
> know ya don't HAVE cellers on the Left Coast!? full of submarine batteries,
> "trickle" charging at a few hunded amps off a SERIOUS 480 volt power drop,
> like Wal*Marts have. You charge yur car at a zillion amps for 10-30 minutes.
> While yur IN the Wal*Mart, or Burgler King, Home Despot, getting CHARGED
> there, too.After all, MOST production cars will have a 100 plus mile range,
> to start with? Sooo IF ya plan on driving out to PDX for the races you stop
> for lunch, go ANOTHER 100 miles, or more stop AGAIN, for another charge,
> coffee, piddle, stretch break, see a museum, etc? After all as Cunard Lines,
> the Boat People,Queen Merry drivers, used to say;" Getting there is Half the
> Fun"? What's yur hurry, anyhow? FLY Jet Blue, if you hafta get there quick?
> They surprise me; They leave and ARRIVE on time! A novel concept! I mean
> other than die hard geeks like me, how many sheeple drive X country, anyhow?
> I thought so; damn few?!So Godamn expensive, as ya eat, sleep at Motels,
> etc!? Train's nice, too, you can LOOK at the scenery, and Cell Fone legally,
> too!Same for Greyhound too? The new Diseasel busses are quite cumfy,
> nowadaze!
>
>    So, range anx? Not a problem IF we have a 100 mile plus car? The Tesla
> "S" model MIGHT have 250-300 mile range? good enough for me, and PROBABLY
> you too? BUT IF I can charge in say half hour? The 5 minute stuff is a bit
> far fetched, but a slightly longer time? Difference? Cables the size of my
> ARM for 5 min. My pinky for half hour? What's yur Damn HURRY anyhow<G>??
>
>    Seeya
>
>    Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!
>
>
>  
>> I actually quite like the battery swap concept - tho maybe mostly
>> because I remember my Father suggesting it in a conversation we had on
>> a long drive from Perth to Albany in Western Australia where we were
>> living at the time (sheep farming, but I was at school in the UK and
>> only went back twice a year) 35 years ago!
>>
>> For some reason that conversation always stuck with me but it really
>> puzzles me now why I didn't get into EVs years ago when I had the
>> ideal opportunity - when I was at college studying engineering - first
>> HND later MSc.
>>
>> Anyway, let's not diss Mr Agassi - he may turn out to be wrong in the
>> end but in the meantime he is trying very hard to remove one of the 2
>> principle obstacles to widespread acceptance and implementation of EVs
>> worldwide (the other - bigger one - being cost, of course).  He is
>> also raising the profile of EVs generally and in a very positive way.
>>
>> Regards, Martin Winlow
>> Herts, UK
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
>> www.winlow.co.uk
>>
>> On 14 Mar 2010, at 14:08, AMPhibian wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Battery swapping is impractical and unnecessary.  Of course you can
>>> recharge
>>> at home in a few hours, most people drive less than 40 miles a day
>>> so that's
>>> all the recharging you'll need to do, about 10kwh worth at 250wh/
>>> mi.  That's
>>> less than 2 hours at 240 volts 30 amps.  All this hype about fast
>>> charging
>>> and swapping is completely misplaced.
>>>
>>>
>>> themotorman wrote:
>>>      
>>>> As has been pointed out you simply couldn't charge a pack at home
>>>> in a few
>>>> hours let alone a few minutes!! That is just one reason for Battery
>>>> Exchange.. there are many more.. read this,  written before LIFePO4
>>>> but
>>>> still true today;  even more reason to work for an national battery
>>>> exchange
>>>> system.
>>>> http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors/evs.html
>>>> ron
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing
>>>> what not
>>>> to
>>>> do.
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n4.nabble.com/fast-charge-NO-Battery-exchange-YES-tp1592045p1592461.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>>> at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>      
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>>    
>
> _______________________________________________
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> .
>
>  


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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Thos True
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
When hearing this discussion, I find myself drifting back a dozen years or
so ago, when my son was rather involved with his electric RC cars. These
cars had a quick charge, quick change battery that was easy to swap out (had
a 2 wire connector). He kept 2 or 3 charged at most times so that he could
play for hours without waiting for the battery to charge.
Seems we could implement something along these lines using say, a block of
lithiums with an Anderson sort of connector and a pallet jack type of lift
(not necessarily a pallet jack, just a visual) to drop the discharged pack
and raise the charged pack, or perhaps a method to slide a pack in such that
when the pack is in place the pins are aligned by a rail system that
guaranteed proper contact when it latches into place.
It seems that all that would have to happen, is for one mass producer to
take the lead with a design and all others would follow suit, in order to be
compatible. -Thos


On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> AMPhibian wrote:
> > Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
> > helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking
> extra
> > batteries is a nightmare.
>
> Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge. If the EV
> isn't designed for it, it can take hours to swap a pack.
>
> But, there are EVs with quick-change battery packs. It depends on
> designing the vehicle specifically to allow it, and standardizing on the
> packs so they are interchangeable. Fork lifts have done it this way for
> decades.
>
> Another example comes to mind. Bob Schneeviess's "Sno-White" race car
> had a quick-change battery pack. He used perfectly ordinary 6v golf cart
> batteries, each with a handle. The battery boxes had a hinged lid, and
> ran down each side of the car. The lids had connectors to make the
> connections to the batteries. Pop open the lids, and all the batteries
> were disconnected and loose. Simply lift them out, and drop in a
> replacement. Close the lids, and the batteries were reconnected and
> you're ready to go.
>
> It was impressive to see him pull into the pits during a race, and swap
> the pack in just minutes with only muscle power. :-)
>
> > You'd never get a single universal pack anyway.
>
> That's a political and marketing issue, not an engineering problem.
>
>  From an engineering perspective, there is no good reason why we
> couldn't pick a standard battery size (group 31, for example), and
> engineer replacements with any kind of cells (lead-acid, nimh, lithium),
> any amphour capacity, and built-in electronics so it's a drop-in
> replacement. Add a connector and a handle, and you have a quick-change
> battery module.
>
> > Theoretically you'd need an extra battery for every EV, and we know
> > batteries are the most expensive component at this point, so that would
> > drive up the cost for every EV.
>
> True; but two pack also doubles the total miles driven before they need
> replacement. The up-front cost is higher, but your cost per mile is the
> same.
>
> > I see Better Place as offering nothing but a profit opportunity for
> itself
>
> Agreed; but they also offer the consumer increased convenience and
> "insurance" against an expensive battery failure. Some people are
> willing to pay for such things.
>
> Enough people to make Better Place a viable business? I don't know.
>
> > if your gas tank was full every time you left your house, how
> > often would you stop at a gas station and pay a higher price to fill up?
>
> Very rarely. But, I'd still do it when I needed to go farther than I
> could get on one tank.
> --
> Lee A. Hart             | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N           | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377        | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net  | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Greetings,

>> Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
>> helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking extra
>> batteries is a nightmare.

I think the logistics of each battery changing station to stock enough batteries of each type, for whoever shows up on a given day -- is probably not going to be workable in a large place like the USA mainland.

> Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge.


Another major issue with battery swapping: they all need to be owned in the same way: either all are owned by the car owner, or all are leased from the car company -- and either way, the battery swapping company has to have a legal arrangement with the battery owners.

What happens if the battery that is swapped in is in a lot worse condition than the one that was swapped out?  And then, what if you then do not use a battery swap station for a while -- you have to nurse the thing along, and live with a more limited range.  Who is responsible for the condition of the batteries that are being swapped?  Who owns them?

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/




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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by themotorman
I don't think we should rule multiple options out.

A drive in automated battery swap in 10 mins, Rapid charge stations and
range extending trailer rentals.



If I have a job that requires driveing , in other words I don't just get
there and back, I drive during the work day, then maybe I buy an EV that
is swap capable and use it during the week.  On vacations on major
routes, I quick charge and on the trip to the national park or long long
trips to remote regions, I rent the Range Extending trailer

Imagine a Fuel Station like many Gas stations with U-haul centers. I
could pull in and rent a range extending trailer and fill it up or have
lunch and a rapid charge. For the most part the trailers would need to
go both directions, Even better than the already working model for Uhaul
trailers.  That Harris ranch Shell station has Gasoline, Diesel, Natural
Gas, and now a High Power charger.  Humm. Maybe now is an ideal time to
start a range extending trailer franchise business would be a good
business to start.

(Some will point out that this is not as environmentally sound as just
using gas, but if it is 1 or 2 days a month and allows you to do all the
other miles Electric. It wins. THey could also be biodiesel or Natural
Gas generators.  But we would probably at least want to standardize on a
pack voltage :-(   )

 


> AMPhibian wrote:
>> Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
>> helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking
>> extra
>> batteries is a nightmare.
>
> Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge. If the
> EV isn't designed for it, it can take hours to swap a pack.
>
> But, there are EVs with quick-change battery packs. It depends on
> designing the vehicle specifically to allow it, and standardizing on
> the packs so they are interchangeable. Fork lifts have done it this
> way for decades.
>
> Another example comes to mind. Bob Schneeviess's "Sno-White" race car
> had a quick-change battery pack. He used perfectly ordinary 6v golf
> cart batteries, each with a handle. The battery boxes had a hinged
> lid, and ran down each side of the car. The lids had connectors to
> make the connections to the batteries. Pop open the lids, and all the
> batteries were disconnected and loose. Simply lift them out, and drop
> in a replacement. Close the lids, and the batteries were reconnected
> and you're ready to go.
>
> It was impressive to see him pull into the pits during a race, and
> swap the pack in just minutes with only muscle power. :-)
>
>> You'd never get a single universal pack anyway.
>
> That's a political and marketing issue, not an engineering problem.
>
> From an engineering perspective, there is no good reason why we
> couldn't pick a standard battery size (group 31, for example), and
> engineer replacements with any kind of cells (lead-acid, nimh,
> lithium), any amphour capacity, and built-in electronics so it's a
> drop-in replacement. Add a connector and a handle, and you have a
> quick-change battery module.
>
>> Theoretically you'd need an extra battery for every EV, and we know
>> batteries are the most expensive component at this point, so that would
>> drive up the cost for every EV.
>
> True; but two pack also doubles the total miles driven before they
> need replacement. The up-front cost is higher, but your cost per mile
> is the same.
>
>> I see Better Place as offering nothing but a profit opportunity for
>> itself
>
> Agreed; but they also offer the consumer increased convenience and
> "insurance" against an expensive battery failure. Some people are
> willing to pay for such things.
>
> Enough people to make Better Place a viable business? I don't know.
>
>> if your gas tank was full every time you left your house, how
>> often would you stop at a gas station and pay a higher price to fill up?
>
> Very rarely. But, I'd still do it when I needed to go farther than I
> could get on one tank.
> --
> Lee A. Hart        | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N        | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377    | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net    | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Thos True
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
Neil,
I would expect that there would be a hefty core charge or deposit that would
be either held on a credit card hold, or in cash. This deposit or core would
be refunded once it was determined that the battery was in fact
rechargeable, not unlike the way welding bottles have been exchanged for
decades.-Thos

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Neil Blanchard <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> >> Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
> >> helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking
> extra
> >> batteries is a nightmare.
>
> I think the logistics of each battery changing station to stock enough
> batteries of each type, for whoever shows up on a given day -- is probably
> not going to be workable in a large place like the USA mainland.
>
> > Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge.
>
>
> Another major issue with battery swapping: they all need to be owned in the
> same way: either all are owned by the car owner, or all are leased from the
> car company -- and either way, the battery swapping company has to have a
> legal arrangement with the battery owners.
>
> What happens if the battery that is swapped in is in a lot worse condition
> than the one that was swapped out?  And then, what if you then do not use a
> battery swap station for a while -- you have to nurse the thing along, and
> live with a more limited range.  Who is responsible for the condition of the
> batteries that are being swapped?  Who owns them?
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Dennis Miles
Hi, Y-All;  Fast Charging and Battery Swapping both sound like "Fleet
Operations" to me , mostly . School buses pick up weekday mornings, for 2
hours, sit and recharge for 6 hours and drop the students back home in the
afternoon,for 2 hours then park until morning.Plenty of recharge time there.
  A city delivery fleet for "Prescriptions or Pizza," using
cars, multiple trips under 20 miles but 12 trips at 1/2 hour each might need
a quick charge at mid-day.or mid-shift.  For the police, 100 identical EV
set up for bat-swap with 50 extra packs, scheduled swap times and fast
recharge the pack for quick turn-around. run all 100 EV 24/7 They could
"Sneak Up on Crime, and out run them on the street too." That works for all
the long mileage but local drivers (TAXI drive 300 miles per shift)also.
And, for all the medium ranging sales types who call on clients all over a
Region a leasing arrangement that includes access to a system of battery
swap "Stations" all over the region, Like the company gas card that works in
65 stations scattered all over the state. but each station has 2 or 3 packs
to bat-swap and a quick charger to get them ready for the next driver. EV
and pack both leased $ based upon usage. Leasing company replaces packs as
necessary and service for EV included in deal. No home charging needed
so apartment or condo living individuals could lease from same company with
no charging worries. (For now, I feel big trucks are better converted to
Compressed Natural Gass, a USA produced fuel for cross country freight. And
Railroad Dazzlers on C.N.G could be cleaner then the chug and smoke pulling
100 cars of Phosphate ore past my house headed for the fertilizer plant
right now.
Fast recharge allows a bat-swap system to have far fewer packs instead of EV
x3 only EV x1.33 (That is for 100 EV only 133 packs, 100 in EV and 33 in
swap stations. instead of 300 packs with 100 in EV and 200 recharging and 35
of those ready to swap out.

Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (New ! )
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
          EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Thos True <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Neil,
> I would expect that there would be a hefty core charge or deposit that
> would
> be either held on a credit card hold, or in cash. This deposit or core
> would
> be refunded once it was determined that the battery was in fact
> rechargeable, not unlike the way welding bottles have been exchanged for
> decades.-Thos
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why swapping only works in a fleet, either for one BIG company or a
leasing group with identical vehicles for each lessor.

>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Neil Blanchard <
> [hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > >> Mr. Agassi is adding cost and complexity to EV's, neither of which is
> > >> helpful.  The actual logistics of building swap stations and stocking
> > extra
> > >> batteries is a nightmare.
> >
> > I think the logistics of each battery changing station to stock enough
> > batteries of each type, for whoever shows up on a given day -- is
> probably
> > not going to be workable in a large place like the USA mainland.
> > > Battery swapping does indeed seem like a formidable challenge>
> > Another major issue with battery swapping: they all need to be owned in
> the
> > same way: either all are owned by the car owner, or all are leased from
> the
> > car company -- and either way, the battery swapping company has to have a
> > legal arrangement with the battery owners.
> > What happens if the battery that is swapped in is in a lot worse
> condition
> > than the one that was swapped out?  And then, what if you then do not use
> a
> > battery swap station for a while -- you have to nurse the thing along,
> and
> > live with a more limited range.  Who is responsible for the condition of
> the
> > batteries that are being swapped?  Who owns them?
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> > http://neilblanchard.vox.com/library/posts/
>
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >that Neil and Thos is why only leasing the packs pay $ by mile and no home
> charging can work successfully   And many readers of (EVDL) would never
> participate in that plan. But others
> might....-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Lee Hart
Dennis Miles wrote:
> Hi, Y-All;  Fast Charging and Battery Swapping both sound like "Fleet
> Operations" to me, mostly... School buses... delivery for "Prescriptions
> or Pizza"... police

That's the thinking! There are lots of situations where EVs *can* work,
with a little creating thinking.

I did some work on a fleet of EVs for Pizza delivery business. Lots of
trips, but all very short. We set them up with a big Lester 50amp
charger to fast-charge them between trips. That was enough "boost"
between runs so they could complete a day's deliveries, and then had
time to fully recharge overnight.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Dave Davidson-3
Your school buses sit still? We're 3.5 hours in the morning, 3.5 hours
in the afternoon, and doing field trips, work programs, etc. in
between. They don't make money sitting still (owned & operated by
contractors). However, they are well suited for a strong hybrid,
preferably plug in.

On 3/15/10, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dennis Miles wrote:
>> Hi, Y-All;  Fast Charging and Battery Swapping both sound like "Fleet
>> Operations" to me, mostly... School buses... delivery for "Prescriptions
>> or Pizza"... police
>
> That's the thinking! There are lots of situations where EVs *can* work,
> with a little creating thinking.
>
> I did some work on a fleet of EVs for Pizza delivery business. Lots of
> trips, but all very short. We set them up with a big Lester 50amp
> charger to fast-charge them between trips. That was enough "boost"
> between runs so they could complete a day's deliveries, and then had
> time to fully recharge overnight.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

themotorman
In reply to this post by themotorman
Thanks for all the comments, since I wrote my paper way back when it was
delivered to a Battery Association meeting I am still convinced that a
simple exchange is the way to go. FYI In the poorest country in the world
they have a battery exchange system working,  in Katmando , Nepal it is used
for the rickshaws that are battery powered . They use simple car batteries
and have street corner exchange stations. My idea is to have uniform
envelope that everyone uses and it is only 25 # in weight , what it contains
does'nt matter just the envelope and the connectors system, I like the
Andersen style .. It would also have information on the battery style,
charging information and number of cycles etc ,just like a laptop battery
does now.. The idea for a 25 # pack is that you do not need a complicated
system to exchange the packs and in many countries it would be done by
manual labor. In places like the USA where even pumping your own gas was
once considered too much an automated system would be used.
What this doe sand should be encouraged by home builders is that we could
spend our time developing great evehicles and try to put the battery
problems somewhere else. It would also allow for easy deveopment dfo r
commercial ecars and ebikes as  with a plethora of exchange stations the
battery size and WEIGHT needed goes down  especially if we get to have
automated exchange stations. No need to have expensive chargers either!!
Drive in a drive out in under a minute.. that is doable.. actually it's
possible to be faster than pumping gas!! Also since the ownership of the
batteries is not that of the car owners you would just be paying for KW-hrs.
This exchange has been a dream of mine for nearly 50 years so excuse my
attitude.. believe me it will come about .. may be in my next life.. Those
who haven't read my paper it is at
http://www.members.cox.net/rdoctors.evs.html.
BTW I design electric motors in case anyone wonders what i do.. I am also
building a 3 wheeler ( 1000 # total weight, all ABS body and 4 motors into a
Baker transmission. It's going to the upholstery shop tomorrow.. somethings
I don't do..! It's almost done just need a new battery pack.
ron

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
One of the problems I see with EV's is trying to crowbar them into situations where they really aren't practical.  It's a common argument used by EV detractors:  "EV's won't work because they can't do "this".  If you really need range on a regular basis use a hybrid, or stick to an ICE.  If you need occasional long range, rent an ICE, build or rent a genset trailer, or keep a second car which is an ICE.  Spending a lot of time and energy trying to make EV's into something they are not, long range vehicles, doesn't really help anything.  If in the future batteries become energy dense enough then they can fill that roll as well.  There is certainly a place for creative thinking with EV's, but their main strength is where we need them the most, daily short and mid range driving that probably makes up 90% of passenger vehicle use.

Dennis Miles wrote
> Hi, Y-All;  Fast Charging and Battery Swapping both sound like "Fleet
> Operations" to me, mostly... School buses... delivery for "Prescriptions
> or Pizza"... police....

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Re: fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by themotorman
In Europe I have seen battery operated buses that have large packs of gel
packs that slide on rails below the passenger compartment.  They make one
run trip back to the bus barn and slid out the battery that plugs into a
center plug in buss bar system, and slid in another pack.

I think the battery system was made by Accumulatorfabriken something company
in Germany.

These are large white poly type of plastic boxes that have two large handles
like a rack panel has.  You could see each cell or call a jar that plugs
into the battery box which also must have a bus terminal bar connections.
There is no wires connecting the jars together and the battery boxes
together.

These are what you call are true traction batteries.  The size I use back in
76 was a cobalt lead jar, that is 18 inches high and 300 amp hour rating.
During daily runs I only had to charge the battery up to 80% SOC and
discharge to 50% SOC using only 30 percent of the battery capacity to run
about 46 miles and then finish charge at the end of the day.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fast charge NO Battery exchange YES!!


> Your school buses sit still? We're 3.5 hours in the morning, 3.5 hours
> in the afternoon, and doing field trips, work programs, etc. in
> between. They don't make money sitting still (owned & operated by
> contractors). However, they are well suited for a strong hybrid,
> preferably plug in.
>
> On 3/15/10, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Dennis Miles wrote:
> >> Hi, Y-All;  Fast Charging and Battery Swapping both sound like "Fleet
> >> Operations" to me, mostly... School buses... delivery for
> >> "Prescriptions
> >> or Pizza"... police
> >
> > That's the thinking! There are lots of situations where EVs *can* work,
> > with a little creating thinking.
> >
> > I did some work on a fleet of EVs for Pizza delivery business. Lots of
> > trips, but all very short. We set them up with a big Lester 50amp
> > charger to fast-charge them between trips. That was enough "boost"
> > between runs so they could complete a day's deliveries, and then had
> > time to fully recharge overnight.
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
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