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free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
application:

Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
(greencarreports.com)
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric-truck-horizon>

a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)...  And
could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
electric connections and an exhaust port.  Drop it in and go.

Bob
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I worked with this company on an amazing series-hybrid system that uses a
more conventional engine, but it's performance is amazing:
https://www.obrist.at/powertrain/
https://youtu.be/cuxR5qy4yu4

Their demonstrator is using a Tesla Model 3.   Probably the first Tesla to
ever have a gas tank!  I have to admit, when I first heard what they were
trying to do, I was pretty pessimistic, but their system is a great
stop-gap and will make it possible to get more EVs out there for lower
cost, sooner.   Even if we wanted to make the global fleet all-electric,
there just isn't enough materials to make all the batteries for
full-electric cars.   But if each one uses only a small pack which covers >
75% of the driving,  it means you can make a LOT more cars, and you also
don't have the chicken-and-egg DCFC charging network issue.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 11:01 AM Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
> built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
> application:
>
> Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
> (greencarreports.com)
> <
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric-truck-horizon
> >
>
> a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
> for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)...  And
> could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
> electric connections and an exhaust port.  Drop it in and go.
>
> Bob
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Chevy used to sell a very similar vehicle.  I normally have one parked in the driveway, but my wife drove it to work today.


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 2, 2021 11:25 AM, "(-Phil-) via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I worked with this company on an amazing series-hybrid system that uses a
> more conventional engine, but it's performance is amazing:
> https://www.obrist.at/powertrain
> https://youtu.be/cuxR5qy4yu4
>
> Their demonstrator is using a Tesla Model 3. Probably the first Tesla to
> ever have a gas tank! I have to admit, when I first heard what they were
> trying to do, I was pretty pessimistic, but their system is a great
> stop-gap and will make it possible to get more EVs out there for lower
> cost, sooner. Even if we wanted to make the global fleet all-electric,
> there just isn't enough materials to make all the batteries for
> full-electric cars. But if each one uses only a small pack which covers >
> 75% of the driving, it means you can make a LOT more cars, and you also
> don't have the chicken-and-egg DCFC charging network issue.
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 11:01 AM Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
>> built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
>> application:
>>
>> Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
>> (greencarreports.com)
>> <
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric-
>> ruck-horizon
>>
>> a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
>> for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)... And
>> could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
>> electric connections and an exhaust port. Drop it in and go.
>>
>> Bob
>> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The difference is in the Chevy Volt, just like the Prius and other similar
hybrids, they use a power-split device to directly connect the ICE to the
wheels.  Obviously this was chosen because unlike the series hybrid, there
are less conversion stages before the power meets the road.   However, in
the case of Obrist's technology, the benefits of only having the
generator(s) connected means they can do clever tricks to optimize the
efficiency that allows it to always run at the most optimal speed.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:44 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Chevy used to sell a very similar vehicle.  I normally have one parked in
> the driveway, but my wife drove it to work today.
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> April 2, 2021 11:25 AM, "(-Phil-) via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I worked with this company on an amazing series-hybrid system that uses a
> > more conventional engine, but it's performance is amazing:
> > https://www.obrist.at/powertrain
> > https://youtu.be/cuxR5qy4yu4
> >
> > Their demonstrator is using a Tesla Model 3. Probably the first Tesla to
> > ever have a gas tank! I have to admit, when I first heard what they were
> > trying to do, I was pretty pessimistic, but their system is a great
> > stop-gap and will make it possible to get more EVs out there for lower
> > cost, sooner. Even if we wanted to make the global fleet all-electric,
> > there just isn't enough materials to make all the batteries for
> > full-electric cars. But if each one uses only a small pack which covers >
> > 75% of the driving, it means you can make a LOT more cars, and you also
> > don't have the chicken-and-egg DCFC charging network issue.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 11:01 AM Robert Bruninga via EV <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
> >> built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
> >> application:
> >>
> >> Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
> >> (greencarreports.com)
> >> <
> >>
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric-
> >> ruck-horizon
> >>
> >> a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure
> makes
> >> for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)... And
> >> could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
> >> electric connections and an exhaust port. Drop it in and go.
> >>
> >> Bob
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> >> Address messages to [hidden email]
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Re: free piston generators

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Seems to me that most free piston engines operate as 2-cycle, so they don't have any moving valves, just ports that are exposed or closed by the moving piston.  However, I suspect you could improve efficiency by using moveable valves

In the past I've thought about trying to build a closed loop, solar(CSP) powered freepiston generator.  Perhaps using water or something with a lower boiling point.  
However, PV got cheap so quickly that I lost interest in the idea.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 2, 2021 11:00 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
> built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
> application:
>
> Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
> (greencarreports.com)
> <https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric
> truck-horizon>
>
> a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
> for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)... And
> could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
> electric connections and an exhaust port. Drop it in and go.
>
> Bob
> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
(-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> The difference is in the Chevy Volt, just like the Prius and other similar
> hybrids, they use a power-split device to directly connect the ICE to the
> wheels.  Obviously this was chosen because unlike the series hybrid, there
> are less conversion stages before the power meets the road.   However, in
> the case of Obrist's technology, the benefits of only having the
> generator(s) connected means they can do clever tricks to optimize the
> efficiency that allows it to always run at the most optimal speed.

How is it different than the Prius-type power split device? It can drive
the vehicle on pure electric, or pure ICE, or both in any combination.

When the Prius came out, it was 99% ICE -- it had a range of 5 miles as
an EV, and 500 miles as an ICE. This was mostly due to the small battery
(about 1 KWH).

My first thought was that over time, hybrids would increase battery
capacity, and decrease ICE capacity. But that hasn't happened. 20 years
later, the best EV-like hybrids only have a 20-40 mile EV range, and
still a 400-500 mile ICE range. So they are still 90% ICEs.

It would seem that the best way to "wean" the general public away from
ICEs and fossil fuels would be to make hybrids that can do 90% of their
driving as EVs, and only use their ICE on rare occasions (like a long
trip once a month).

But no one seems to even consider such an approach.

Lee

--
All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them.
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Actually the second generation Volt can operate several different modes: Pure electric, Series-hybrid, and Parallel-hybrid.

In all modes one or both electric motors can be driving the wheels.
When the gas engine is running it can either be connected to the wheels through the planetary gearbox(in which case one or both e-motors can also provide propulsion), or connect to one of the motors operating as a generator, or connect to both the generator and the wheels.

This paper lists 5 different operating modes:
https://digitalcommons.mtu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1778&context=etdr (https://digitalcommons.mtu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1778&context=etdr)

The computer decides which mode to operate in at any given point in time and can switch modes seemlesly.

The second generation Volts switched to Atkinson cycle which reduces power density but improves efficiency. Second Gen volts operating in range extending (gasoline) mode get 42+ MPG indefinitely (as long as you have gas available), and do it using regular gas unlike the 1st gen models that required premium.

FWIW The driver has no control over the gas engine's RPMs, you can't even directly control if it's running or not. You can force it to use the gas engine by putting it into battery saver mode, but even then the computer will turn the engine off if it doesn't need the power. I.e. when stopped in traffic or if going down a long hill..

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key (https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key)

April 3, 2021 11:20 AM, "(-Phil-)" <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email]?to=%22(-Phil-)%22%20<[hidden email]>)> wrote:
 The difference is in the Chevy Volt, just like the Prius and other similar hybrids, they use a power-split device to directly connect the ICE to the wheels. Obviously this was chosen because unlike the series hybrid, there are less conversion stages before the power meets the road. However, in the case of Obrist's technology, the benefits of only having the generator(s) connected means they can do clever tricks to optimize the efficiency that allows it to always run at the most optimal speed.
 On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:44 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])> wrote: Chevy used to sell a very similar vehicle. I normally have one parked in the driveway, but my wife drove it to work today.
My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key (https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key)

April 2, 2021 11:25 AM, "(-Phil-) via EV" <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])> wrote:

> I worked with this company on an amazing series-hybrid system that uses a
> more conventional engine, but it's performance is amazing:
> https://www.obrist.at/powertrain (https://www.obrist.at/powertrain)
> https://youtu.be/cuxR5qy4yu4 (https://youtu.be/cuxR5qy4yu4)
>
> Their demonstrator is using a Tesla Model 3. Probably the first Tesla to
> ever have a gas tank! I have to admit, when I first heard what they were
> trying to do, I was pretty pessimistic, but their system is a great
> stop-gap and will make it possible to get more EVs out there for lower
> cost, sooner. Even if we wanted to make the global fleet all-electric,
> there just isn't enough materials to make all the batteries for
> full-electric cars. But if each one uses only a small pack which covers >
> 75% of the driving, it means you can make a LOT more cars, and you also
> don't have the chicken-and-egg DCFC charging network issue.
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 11:01 AM Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])>
> wrote:
>
>> I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
>> built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
>> application:
>>
>> Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
>> (greencarreports.com (http://greencarreports.com))
>> <
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric- (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1131725_could-free-piston-range-extenders-broaden-the-electric-)
>> ruck-horizon
>>
>> a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
>> for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)... And
>> could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
>> electric connections and an exhaust port. Drop it in and go.
>>
>> Bob
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I feel it's a shame that Chevy stopped making Volts just when they were getting good.

The 2nd Gen volts had an EPA rated battery only range of 53 miles.  My wife is the primary driver, and because the majority of her driving is at speeds under 50mph, the GOM typically displays an EV range of around 68 miles.
I once mangaed 92 miles on the batteries, but that was mostly constant speed driving on the highway and included a 2000 foot drop in elevation.

Except on long trips and the occasional drive up to Tucson (85 miles each wa), my wife drives it primarily as an EV.  It always seems to surprise her when it announces that the next time she drives, it will fire up the gas engine to run diagnostics. It does this if the gas engine hasn't been used in the last 2 months (as long as there is gas in the tank)

In fact this was Chevy's stated reason for dropping the Volt, most people drive it mostly as an EV and weren't using the gas engine.  With the Bolt now available, to solve range anxiety issues they felt it wasn't needed any more.

Personally I think the Voltec power train would be a good fit for a Pickup or SUV.  Give you EV range for around town with the gas engine available for long distance towing.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 3, 2021 11:53 AM, "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My first thought was that over time, hybrids would increase battery capacity, and decrease ICE
> capacity. But that hasn't happened. 20 years later, the best EV-like hybrids only have a 20-40 mile
> EV range, and still a 400-500 mile ICE range. So they are still 90% ICEs.
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The hybrid "evolution" theory doesn't work. I think Toyota's approach
was right, for the time: make a substantially more efficient gas engine.
They did a brilliant job.

But to migrate that to an EV is difficult. First, you still need a
fairly substantial gas engine, if you want the vehicle capable of long
distance freeway travel. Once the battery is depleted, the ICE needs to
be sufficient on its own. Second, if you want a larger battery, you now
have to find additional space - you still need the ICE and the
transmission and all the other junk. And more weight for a larger
battery. It just doesn't work. The 40-50 mile range hybrids are probably
the limit this technology can go.

I think people in general are quite aware of EVs now, especially seeing
teslas on the road. it seems people are waiting for enough range and
quick enough charging that they don't have to be concerned any more than
they are driving and ICE-V. We're getting close to that. The other
factor is price, which is dropping (for what you get) every year. It's
coming ! We don't need a transition vehicle.

(And I realize I can be over optimistic, but I feel strongly about this
:)

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "(-Phil-) via EV" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 03-Apr-21 11:53:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] free piston generators

>(-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>>The difference is in the Chevy Volt, just like the Prius and other similar
>>hybrids, they use a power-split device to directly connect the ICE to the
>>wheels.  Obviously this was chosen because unlike the series hybrid, there
>>are less conversion stages before the power meets the road.   However, in
>>the case of Obrist's technology, the benefits of only having the
>>generator(s) connected means they can do clever tricks to optimize the
>>efficiency that allows it to always run at the most optimal speed.
>
>How is it different than the Prius-type power split device? It can drive the vehicle on pure electric, or pure ICE, or both in any combination.
>
>When the Prius came out, it was 99% ICE -- it had a range of 5 miles as an EV, and 500 miles as an ICE. This was mostly due to the small battery (about 1 KWH).
>
>My first thought was that over time, hybrids would increase battery capacity, and decrease ICE capacity. But that hasn't happened. 20 years later, the best EV-like hybrids only have a 20-40 mile EV range, and still a 400-500 mile ICE range. So they are still 90% ICEs.
>
>It would seem that the best way to "wean" the general public away from ICEs and fossil fuels would be to make hybrids that can do 90% of their driving as EVs, and only use their ICE on rare occasions (like a long trip once a month).
>
>But no one seems to even consider such an approach.
>
>Lee
>
>-- All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
>just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
>engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them.
>(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> The hybrid "evolution" theory doesn't work. I think Toyota's approach
> was right, for the time: make a substantially more efficient gas engine.
> They did a brilliant job.
>
> But to migrate that to an EV is difficult. First, you still need a
> fairly substantial gas engine, if you want the vehicle capable of long
> distance freeway travel.

But is that actually true? Cars have engines with ten times the
horsepower needed to drive down the road at 70 mph. A "strong" hybrid
(big EV motor and battery, small ICE) could easily have enough power to
provide that 10x boost for fast acceleration or hill-climbing.

> Second, if you want a larger battery, you now have to find additional
> space - you still need the ICE and the transmission and all the other
> junk. And more weight for a larger battery.

Are you sure? A 40HP engine is considerably smaller and lighter than a
400 HP engine, and still plenty enough to push you down the road all
day. Look at how small and light the engine is in a Geo Metro or old VW
beetle. You could pick it up single-handed.

The ICE (and its assorted pieces) needed to go (say) 400 miles is
certainly lighter than the battery pack needed to go that same 400
miles. The millions of cars on the road have already demonstrated this.

> It just doesn't work. The 40-50 mile range hybrids are probably
> the limit this technology can go.

But there have been hobbyist-built "strong" hybrids with big EV and
small ICEs. They appear to work just fine (given the limitations of
hobby engineering).

> I think people in general are quite aware of EVs now, especially seeing
> teslas on the road. it seems people are waiting for enough range and
> quick enough charging that they don't have to be concerned any more than
> they are driving and ICE-V. We're getting close to that. The other
> factor is price, which is dropping (for what you get) every year. It's
> coming! We don't need a transition vehicle.

I think you're overly optimistic. Here; we're the converted! We
*believe* that EVs are the future.

But almost everyone I know tells me, "ICEs are forever... I'll never
drive an EV... They're too weird, too expensive... I like what I already
have, and don't want to change." That may not be the case in other
countries that are more pragmatic. But most Americans won't change
without being *forced* to! And our government can't/won't do that, given
the political climate.

Climate change may be happening in the rest of the world; but not in the
US government!

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
         -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I saw data from a study by the California Air Resources Board that indicated that most were not using EV mode on hybrids very often - most never even charged it. They bought it to get the rebates.  

That being said, a friend at an OEM said that their data showed the opposite.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I feel it's a shame that Chevy stopped making Volts just when they were getting good.
>
> The 2nd Gen volts had an EPA rated battery only range of 53 miles.  My wife is the primary driver, and because the majority of her driving is at speeds under 50mph, the GOM typically displays an EV range of around 68 miles.
> I once mangaed 92 miles on the batteries, but that was mostly constant speed driving on the highway and included a 2000 foot drop in elevation.
>
> Except on long trips and the occasional drive up to Tucson (85 miles each wa), my wife drives it primarily as an EV.  It always seems to surprise her when it announces that the next time she drives, it will fire up the gas engine to run diagnostics. It does this if the gas engine hasn't been used in the last 2 months (as long as there is gas in the tank)
>
> In fact this was Chevy's stated reason for dropping the Volt, most people drive it mostly as an EV and weren't using the gas engine.  With the Bolt now available, to solve range anxiety issues they felt it wasn't needed any more.
>
> Personally I think the Voltec power train would be a good fit for a Pickup or SUV.  Give you EV range for around town with the gas engine available for long distance towing.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> April 3, 2021 11:53 AM, "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> My first thought was that over time, hybrids would increase battery capacity, and decrease ICE
>> capacity. But that hasn't happened. 20 years later, the best EV-like hybrids only have a 20-40 mile
>> EV range, and still a 400-500 mile ICE range. So they are still 90% ICEs.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 3 Apr 2021 at 11:20, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> However, in the case of Obrist's technology, the benefits of only
> having the generator(s) connected means they can do clever tricks to
> optimize the efficiency that allows it to always run at the most
> optimal speed.

I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that ICEV efficiency today - despite the
fact that most ICEVs are (IMO) drastically overpowered - is already quite
good for a piston engine, thanks to tight microprocessor control.  I wonder
how much more ICEs can be optimized, even when driving only a range
extending genset - whether it's enough to make up for the conversion losses.

With fast charging pushing into the hundreds of kW, and EV batteries
typically between 50kWh and 100kWh, I see a diminishing need for true
hybrids and their complexity.

I think we may already be at the point where if you have access to good long
distance mass transit (rare in the US, unfortunately) you can sell the ICEV.
It might make economic sense for those without good trains to rent an ICEV
for long trips.  Or perhaps an extended family could share one ICEV among 3
or 4 households.

Could, could, could.  Easy to say.  Now just try to convince the general
public to actually do it!  :-\

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     The rain it raineth on the just
     And also on the unjust fella.
     But mostly on the just because
     The unjust steals the just's umbrella.

                                   -- Charles Bowen
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that ICEV efficiency today - despite the
> fact that most ICEVs are (IMO) drastically overpowered - is already quite
> good for a piston engine, thanks to tight microprocessor control.  I wonder
> how much more ICEs can be optimized, even when driving only a range
> extending genset - whether it's enough to make up for the conversion losses.
>
> With fast charging pushing into the hundreds of kW, and EV batteries
> typically between 50kWh and 100kWh, I see a diminishing need for true
> hybrids and their complexity.

Ah; but 98% of the cars on US roads are ICEs. Hybrids significantly
improve fuel economy and reduce pollution. So the more hybrids, the less
the pollution.

The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement.
They may not be the ultimate (EV) solution, but they're a step in the
right direction. You can "sell" an ICE motor-head on a hybrid (because
it saves gas), even though they would rather *die* than drive an EV.
"EVs are a liberal democratic socialist plot to destroy real 'murican
values!"
> Could, could, could.  Easy to say.  Now just try to convince the general
> public to actually do it!  :-\

That's exactly it. We can do it technologically. But can we do it
politically and emotionally? I'm reminded of that old Groucho Marx song:

        Whatever it is, I'm against it!
        No matter how you reasoned or defense it,
        I'm against it!
        I agree with all you say; I'll oppose it anyway,
        'Cause I'm against it!

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
         -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I think most people are ready from a emotional viewpoint.

Consumer Reports: 71% of drivers surveyed said they were intereseted in
getting an EV.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130699_survey-7-out-of-10-americans-see-an-ev-in-the-future-want-more-vehicle-choices-and-charging

KPMG Canada: nearly 70% of Canadians want to buy an EV in the next
decade.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/the-next-new-vehicle-purchase-for-nearly-70-per-cent-of-canadians-will-be-an-electric-model-kpmg-in-canada-survey-889637501.html

Castrol: the average consumer would by an EV now if less than $36K and
has range of 319 miles.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33765591/electric-vehicle-buyers-survey-castrol/

I think this is pretty sufficient to claim that people are waiting
because of other reasons, mainly range and up front cost. I am
definitely an optimist but this shows most people aren't gear heads but
simply want an affordable, reliable car.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Lee Hart via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "EVDL Administrator via EV" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 04-Apr-21 10:00:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] free piston generators

>EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that ICEV efficiency today - despite the
>>fact that most ICEVs are (IMO) drastically overpowered - is already quite
>>good for a piston engine, thanks to tight microprocessor control.  I wonder
>>how much more ICEs can be optimized, even when driving only a range
>>extending genset - whether it's enough to make up for the conversion losses.
>>
>>With fast charging pushing into the hundreds of kW, and EV batteries
>>typically between 50kWh and 100kWh, I see a diminishing need for true
>>hybrids and their complexity.
>
>Ah; but 98% of the cars on US roads are ICEs. Hybrids significantly improve fuel economy and reduce pollution. So the more hybrids, the less the pollution.
>
>The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement. They may not be the ultimate (EV) solution, but they're a step in the right direction. You can "sell" an ICE motor-head on a hybrid (because it saves gas), even though they would rather *die* than drive an EV. "EVs are a liberal democratic socialist plot to destroy real 'murican values!"
>>Could, could, could.  Easy to say.  Now just try to convince the general
>>public to actually do it!  :-\
>
>That's exactly it. We can do it technologically. But can we do it politically and emotionally? I'm reminded of that old Groucho Marx song:
>
> Whatever it is, I'm against it!
> No matter how you reasoned or defense it,
> I'm against it!
> I agree with all you say; I'll oppose it anyway,
> 'Cause I'm against it!
>
>Lee
>
>-- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
>nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>         -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
>-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I assume in this sentence you meant "plugin-hybrid":
"The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement."

Hybrids don't have "EV ranges" unless 1 gentle mile or so is considered
"range".

During my EV eganguelising I am forever correcting people who think a
hybrid is an EV.  It is not.
But a plugin hybrid is.  We have to correct those mistakes wherever they
occur.  == Bob

On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 1:00 PM Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that ICEV efficiency today - despite
> the
> > fact that most ICEVs are (IMO) drastically overpowered - is already quite
> > good for a piston engine, thanks to tight microprocessor control.  I
> wonder
> > how much more ICEs can be optimized, even when driving only a range
> > extending genset - whether it's enough to make up for the conversion
> losses.
> >
> > With fast charging pushing into the hundreds of kW, and EV batteries
> > typically between 50kWh and 100kWh, I see a diminishing need for true
> > hybrids and their complexity.
>
> Ah; but 98% of the cars on US roads are ICEs. Hybrids significantly
> improve fuel economy and reduce pollution. So the more hybrids, the less
> the pollution.
>
> The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement.
> They may not be the ultimate (EV) solution, but they're a step in the
> right direction. You can "sell" an ICE motor-head on a hybrid (because
> it saves gas), even though they would rather *die* than drive an EV.
> "EVs are a liberal democratic socialist plot to destroy real 'murican
> values!"
> > Could, could, could.  Easy to say.  Now just try to convince the general
> > public to actually do it!  :-\
>
> That's exactly it. We can do it technologically. But can we do it
> politically and emotionally? I'm reminded of that old Groucho Marx song:
>
>         Whatever it is, I'm against it!
>         No matter how you reasoned or defense it,
>         I'm against it!
>         I agree with all you say; I'll oppose it anyway,
>         'Cause I'm against it!
>
> Lee
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>          -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 4 Apr 2021 at 14:23, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> During my EV eganguelising I am forever correcting people who think a
> hybrid is an EV.  It is not. But a plugin hybrid is.  We have to
> correct those mistakes wherever they occur.

I've been fighting this battle since the Piius came out in 1997.  It's
futile, and by now I'm sure that most of you are rolling your eyes, but I
just can't seem to let it go.

IMO if all of a vehicle's motive energy comes from fuel burned in an ICE,
it's not a hybrid, period.  Vehicles such as the Prius are essentially
somewhat feeble ICEVs made more powerful with electric superchargers.

I had a long argu - uh, discussion with a mechanic a while back.  He
declared that the quasi-hybrids like the Prius were pointless because "by
the time I work on them they're all running totally on their gas engines."
Well, duh!  I tried to explain that that's the way they're SUPPOSED to run,
but he wasn't having it.  

Twenty+ years ago, some of us thought that the quasi-hybrids (then just the
Toyota Prius and Honda Insight) might be useful for getting "normal" vehicle
buyers accustomed to the idea of EVs.  You may disagree, but I don't think
that they did much. What DID get real world ICE-heads thinking that EVs
might be OK was the Tesla S.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     One of the problems with modern society is that it places
     more importance on things that have a price than on things
     that have a value.

                                   -- Pablo Fajardo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I keep mentioning it, but most people apparently don't get it:

The biggest problem is there simply isn't enough battery production
capacity to convert the whole fleet to 100% electric yet.

It's a classic chicken and egg problem; battery production has a long tail
requiring more mining and refining capacity, which nobody will build
overnight.

Even Tesla says despite their best planning; they are production
constrained because of battery cells.

This is why a true hybrid (plug in) can help bridge the gap.  I advocate
for 100% EV adoption, and have been doing so for over 30 years before there
were any production EVs, but sadly this problem still exists.


On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 11:46 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 4 Apr 2021 at 14:23, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > During my EV eganguelising I am forever correcting people who think a
> > hybrid is an EV.  It is not. But a plugin hybrid is.  We have to
> > correct those mistakes wherever they occur.
>
> I've been fighting this battle since the Piius came out in 1997.  It's
> futile, and by now I'm sure that most of you are rolling your eyes, but I
> just can't seem to let it go.
>
> IMO if all of a vehicle's motive energy comes from fuel burned in an ICE,
> it's not a hybrid, period.  Vehicles such as the Prius are essentially
> somewhat feeble ICEVs made more powerful with electric superchargers.
>
> I had a long argu - uh, discussion with a mechanic a while back.  He
> declared that the quasi-hybrids like the Prius were pointless because "by
> the time I work on them they're all running totally on their gas engines."
> Well, duh!  I tried to explain that that's the way they're SUPPOSED to
> run,
> but he wasn't having it.
>
> Twenty+ years ago, some of us thought that the quasi-hybrids (then just
> the
> Toyota Prius and Honda Insight) might be useful for getting "normal"
> vehicle
> buyers accustomed to the idea of EVs.  You may disagree, but I don't think
> that they did much. What DID get real world ICE-heads thinking that EVs
> might be OK was the Tesla S.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      One of the problems with modern society is that it places
>      more importance on things that have a price than on things
>      that have a value.
>
>                                    -- Pablo Fajardo
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Under today’s technology, it’s worse than that. There are not anywhere near enough known reserves for the needs being projected under an “all battery“ scenario.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Apr 4, 2021, at 1:08 PM, (-Phil-) via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I keep mentioning it, but most people apparently don't get it:
>
> The biggest problem is there simply isn't enough battery production
> capacity to convert the whole fleet to 100% electric yet.
>
> It's a classic chicken and egg problem; battery production has a long tail
> requiring more mining and refining capacity, which nobody will build
> overnight.
>
> Even Tesla says despite their best planning; they are production
> constrained because of battery cells.
>
> This is why a true hybrid (plug in) can help bridge the gap.  I advocate
> for 100% EV adoption, and have been doing so for over 30 years before there
> were any production EVs, but sadly this problem still exists.
>
>
>> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 11:46 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4 Apr 2021 at 14:23, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>>
>>> During my EV eganguelising I am forever correcting people who think a
>>> hybrid is an EV.  It is not. But a plugin hybrid is.  We have to
>>> correct those mistakes wherever they occur.
>>
>> I've been fighting this battle since the Piius came out in 1997.  It's
>> futile, and by now I'm sure that most of you are rolling your eyes, but I
>> just can't seem to let it go.
>>
>> IMO if all of a vehicle's motive energy comes from fuel burned in an ICE,
>> it's not a hybrid, period.  Vehicles such as the Prius are essentially
>> somewhat feeble ICEVs made more powerful with electric superchargers.
>>
>> I had a long argu - uh, discussion with a mechanic a while back.  He
>> declared that the quasi-hybrids like the Prius were pointless because "by
>> the time I work on them they're all running totally on their gas engines."
>> Well, duh!  I tried to explain that that's the way they're SUPPOSED to
>> run,
>> but he wasn't having it.
>>
>> Twenty+ years ago, some of us thought that the quasi-hybrids (then just
>> the
>> Toyota Prius and Honda Insight) might be useful for getting "normal"
>> vehicle
>> buyers accustomed to the idea of EVs.  You may disagree, but I don't think
>> that they did much. What DID get real world ICE-heads thinking that EVs
>> might be OK was the Tesla S.
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>     One of the problems with modern society is that it places
>>     more importance on things that have a price than on things
>>     that have a value.
>>
>>                                   -- Pablo Fajardo
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
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Re: free piston generators

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
(-Phil-) wrote:
 >> The biggest problem is there simply isn't enough battery production
 >> capacity to convert the whole fleet to 100% electric yet.

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> Under today’s technology, it’s worse than that. There are not anywhere near
> enough known reserves for the needs being projected under an “all battery“ > scenario.

But that's OK. There's no way that society will switch to an "all
battery" EV solution overnight.

Supply and demand aren't that far out of balance. There is enough
lithium to provide enough EVs to satisfy the current demand.

As demand increases, companies will find ways to fulfill the needs.
We'll start recycling lithium, or develop other battery technologies, or
make better use of the ones we already have.

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
         -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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