heaters

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heaters

Electric Blue auto convertions
why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
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Re: heaters

Bill Dennis
I actually have already bought an electric hot water heater for the car, with the exact intention that you mention.  Unfortunately, to get the battery box to fit under the hood, I'd had to cut back the heater core barbs, and now I've found that there's not enough left to attach the hose securely enough so that it doesn't leak.  So replacing the core is a project for the Spring, when I can take apart the dash again.  For now, the electric core will have to do.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
To: ev <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [EVDL] heaters

why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
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Re: heaters

Bill Dennis
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
Wayne's comment brings up another question.  Is all the relay stuff still necessary with an electric hot water heater?  Is its heating element considered an inductor the same as the nichrome in the ceramic core?

Thanks.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
To: ev <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [EVDL] heaters

why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
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Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Electric Blue auto convertions
On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a
ceramic element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use
the ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount
of power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a
hit if the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about
the same energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care
about heating system efficiency.

Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt
pump capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches
fire. You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the
reservoir. It also is slow to heat up.

It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.

Bill D.

At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
>A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they
>work real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents

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Re: heaters

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Bill Dennis
I use the same hot water heater setup.  I went to my independent auto parts
store and bought a 1000 watt engine heater for a big rig diesel truck.  It's
a long 18 inch by 2 inch diameter stainless steel heater with built in tank
that has a optional plug in thermo control and pump.

Instead of using the heater pumps, I use a external 120 vac 0.5 amp
circulating pump that is use in heating systems which is control by a
Honeywell thermo control.

The pump and thermo control is power by my on board 6000 watt 120 vac 60 Hz
inverter which also is use to run other ac fans, blowers, and two additional
heaters that stages up as the temperature drops to 30 below.

Use a small expansion tank that has a pressure cap on it which is normally
mounted remotely up higher than the heater core for a radiator that is
mounted lower than the engine on a low slung vehicle.

Used a on dash 30 amp rocker switch where I can either select the on board
power systems or selected the 120 VAC 60 Hz outboard power which I use to
preheat the heating system and cab up to 80 F. about 15 minutes before I
leave.

Install this heating system in 1980 and has been working perfectly ever
since.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters


> Wayne's comment brings up another question.  Is all the relay stuff still
> necessary with an electric hot water heater?  Is its heating element
> considered an inductor the same as the nichrome in the ceramic core?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
> To: ev <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: [EVDL] heaters
>
> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot water.
> no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating elements
> are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric water
> pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work real
> good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: heaters

Roger Heuckeroth-2

Do you remember the brand water heater you bought?

On Dec 28, 2011, at 1:52 PM, "Roland Wiench" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I use the same hot water heater setup.  I went to my independent auto parts
> store and bought a 1000 watt engine heater for a big rig diesel truck.  It's
> a long 18 inch by 2 inch diameter stainless steel heater with built in tank
> that has a optional plug in thermo control and pump.
>
> Instead of using the heater pumps, I use a external 120 vac 0.5 amp
> circulating pump that is use in heating systems which is control by a
> Honeywell thermo control.
>
> The pump and thermo control is power by my on board 6000 watt 120 vac 60 Hz
> inverter which also is use to run other ac fans, blowers, and two additional
> heaters that stages up as the temperature drops to 30 below.
>
> Use a small expansion tank that has a pressure cap on it which is normally
> mounted remotely up higher than the heater core for a radiator that is
> mounted lower than the engine on a low slung vehicle.
>
> Used a on dash 30 amp rocker switch where I can either select the on board
> power systems or selected the 120 VAC 60 Hz outboard power which I use to
> preheat the heating system and cab up to 80 F. about 15 minutes before I
> leave.
>
> Install this heating system in 1980 and has been working perfectly ever
> since.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters
>
>
>> Wayne's comment brings up another question.  Is all the relay stuff still
>> necessary with an electric hot water heater?  Is its heating element
>> considered an inductor the same as the nichrome in the ceramic core?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
>> To: ev <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
>> Subject: [EVDL] heaters
>>
>> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot water.
>> no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
>> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating elements
>> are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric water
>> pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work real
>> good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111228/2939e8e0/attachment.html
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>
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Re: heaters

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Bill Dennis
Hello Roger,

That was back in the 80's.  Next time that I go to the Auto Parts Store,
which is actually call The Parts Store, I will look it up.  Actually you
could go to a big rig dealer, which also sells these units.

I first tested out the 1000 watt one by inserting it into the heater hose
loop and use one of those tee fill caps high in the line.  It quickly heated
the water to about boil because there was not enough volume of water.  I
install 3/4 inch lines and the expansion tank which is higher than the
heater core. The expansion tank was one of the low front end Pontiac cars at
the time.

Install a Honeywell adjustable thermo control that immersed in a thermo well
that is inserted into a large 1/2 inch brass tee at the outlet of the
heater.  Adjusted it for a maximum of 180 F. degrees with a differential of
40 F. degrees.

Use a standard Stewart Warner engine water indicator on the dash.  Found
that I really did not have to heat the water up that high.  It still can
defrost the windshield with a 50 F degree water temperature.

So far this year, I never had to use it.  The daily temperatures are at or
above 50 degrees here in Montana.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Heuckeroth" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters


>
> Do you remember the brand water heater you bought?
>
> On Dec 28, 2011, at 1:52 PM, "Roland Wiench" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I use the same hot water heater setup.  I went to my independent auto
> > parts
> > store and bought a 1000 watt engine heater for a big rig diesel truck.
> > It's
> > a long 18 inch by 2 inch diameter stainless steel heater with built in
> > tank
> > that has a optional plug in thermo control and pump.
> >
> > Instead of using the heater pumps, I use a external 120 vac 0.5 amp
> > circulating pump that is use in heating systems which is control by a
> > Honeywell thermo control.
> >
> > The pump and thermo control is power by my on board 6000 watt 120 vac 60
> > Hz
> > inverter which also is use to run other ac fans, blowers, and two
> > additional
> > heaters that stages up as the temperature drops to 30 below.
> >
> > Use a small expansion tank that has a pressure cap on it which is
> > normally
> > mounted remotely up higher than the heater core for a radiator that is
> > mounted lower than the engine on a low slung vehicle.
> >
> > Used a on dash 30 amp rocker switch where I can either select the on
> > board
> > power systems or selected the 120 VAC 60 Hz outboard power which I use
> > to
> > preheat the heating system and cab up to 80 F. about 15 minutes before I
> > leave.
> >
> > Install this heating system in 1980 and has been working perfectly ever
> > since.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Dennis" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters
> >
> >
> >> Wayne's comment brings up another question.  Is all the relay stuff
> >> still
> >> necessary with an electric hot water heater?  Is its heating element
> >> considered an inductor the same as the nichrome in the ceramic core?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
> >> To: ev <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
> >> Subject: [EVDL] heaters
> >>
> >> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
> >> water.
> >> no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with .
> >> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
> >> elements
> >> are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small electric
> >> water
> >> pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
> >> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
> >> real
> >> good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL:
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111228/2939e8e0/attachment.html
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> >> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
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> >
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Re: heaters

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Roger Heuckeroth-2
Hi Roger,
Also this topic has been discussed many times, so the
archives can give you more details, but I remember the
Kim Hotstart heater as one option. It is used as an
after market replacement in the US Electricar.

The trade-off for hot water / ceramic heater core is:
- hot water is easy to install (just attach to the hoses
  at the opposite side of the firewall), but you may be
  waiting more than 5 mins before there is heat in the cabin
- ceramic heater is often difficult to install since
  you need to replace the actual heater core, but the
  heater will be pumping out hot air within seconds from
  switching the heater on.

The hot water heater has less temp variation, so the
startup surge is less than with a ceramic heater
(the resistance of the heating element does not change
very much) but it is still high voltage DC, so you still
need a DC rated relay that can break the appropriate
current (usually 10 Amps at least) at full pack voltage
to guarantee that the heater can be switched off reliably.
If you have a relay with multiple contacts, then placing those
contacts in series will help breaking the current, as dicussed
here before.
See further the archives.


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters


Do you remember the brand water heater you bought?

On Dec 28, 2011, at 1:52 PM, "Roland Wiench" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I use the same hot water heater setup.  I went to my independent auto
> parts store and bought a 1000 watt engine heater for a big rig diesel
> truck.  It's a long 18 inch by 2 inch diameter stainless steel heater
> with built in tank that has a optional plug in thermo control and
pump.
>
> Instead of using the heater pumps, I use a external 120 vac 0.5 amp
> circulating pump that is use in heating systems which is control by a
> Honeywell thermo control.
>
> The pump and thermo control is power by my on board 6000 watt 120 vac
> 60 Hz inverter which also is use to run other ac fans, blowers, and
> two additional heaters that stages up as the temperature drops to 30
below.
>
> Use a small expansion tank that has a pressure cap on it which is
> normally mounted remotely up higher than the heater core for a
> radiator that is mounted lower than the engine on a low slung vehicle.
>
> Used a on dash 30 amp rocker switch where I can either select the on
> board power systems or selected the 120 VAC 60 Hz outboard power which

> I use to preheat the heating system and cab up to 80 F. about 15
> minutes before I leave.
>
> Install this heating system in 1980 and has been working perfectly
> ever since.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] heaters
>
>
>> Wayne's comment brings up another question.  Is all the relay stuff
>> still necessary with an electric hot water heater?  Is its heating
>> element considered an inductor the same as the nichrome in the
ceramic core?

>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Electric Blue auto convertions <[hidden email]>
>> To: ev <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:13:55 -0500 (EST)
>> Subject: [EVDL] heaters
>>
>> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
water.
>> no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin with
.
>> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>> elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>> electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work

>> real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111228/2939e8e
>> 0/attachment.html _______________________________________________
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Actually,
If efficiency was the main design parameter,
then every EV would use a heatpump (A.K.A. AirCo)
as a means to regulate cabin temp.
There are a few, I know of.
But a ceramic heater core is wayyyy cheaper...


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a ceramic
element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use the
ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount of
power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a hit if
the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about the same
energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care about heating
system efficiency.

Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt pump
capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches fire.
You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the reservoir.
It also is slow to heat up.

It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.

Bill D.

At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin
with .
>A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
>real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents

_______________________________________________
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Mark Grasser
Ceramic heat vs hot water heat. Any byproduct would be,,, heat. If a small
tank like Roland discussed is properly insulated, I am wondering how one
could be more efficient than the other. Heating elements of different
wattages are available at the local hardware store. Small pumps are used on
many of the engines made today so there are sources for pumps that don't use
much current. Considering the ease of installation vs some of the stories I
have heard about ceramic heater fires in conversions I am convinced I will
be doing hot water heat. With a small half gallon tank I am quite sure the
time to heat will be a lot less than 5 minutes.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:15 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Actually,
If efficiency was the main design parameter,
then every EV would use a heatpump (A.K.A. AirCo)
as a means to regulate cabin temp.
There are a few, I know of.
But a ceramic heater core is wayyyy cheaper...


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a ceramic
element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use the
ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount of
power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a hit if
the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about the same
energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care about heating
system efficiency.

Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt pump
capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches fire.
You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the reservoir.
It also is slow to heat up.

It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.

Bill D.

At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin
with .
>A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
>real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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|
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Randy
I would like to hear one or more of those ceramic heater fires.
We have sold over 3,000 of those heaters in the last 21 years.
NEVER heard of a fire.
Back in the day they used to use wire elements that glowed red hot.
Those caused fires and that's whey we introduced the ceramic heaters to
EV's.
You can power it up and as long as no air is passing over it the element
stops drawing current or at least draws very little. It does not
continue to build heat. I have seen then left on for months on end when
the contactor stays on with no melted ducts.
Has anyone got a documented case of a CERAMIC heater causing a fire?
I think both liquid and ceramic have applications in EV's. Some vehicles
are a very easy installation of the ceramic elements. Lots of modern
cars have pollen filters that are easy to get to. They are on the intake
to the blower motor. We often take the pollen filter out and install the
element (s) in the place of the filter. Very easy install.

BFN
Randy

On 28/12/2011 5:31 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:

> Ceramic heat vs hot water heat. Any byproduct would be,,, heat. If a small
> tank like Roland discussed is properly insulated, I am wondering how one
> could be more efficient than the other. Heating elements of different
> wattages are available at the local hardware store. Small pumps are used on
> many of the engines made today so there are sources for pumps that don't use
> much current. Considering the ease of installation vs some of the stories I
> have heard about ceramic heater fires in conversions I am convinced I will
> be doing hot water heat. With a small half gallon tank I am quite sure the
> time to heat will be a lot less than 5 minutes.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:15 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
>
> Actually,
> If efficiency was the main design parameter,
> then every EV would use a heatpump (A.K.A. AirCo)
> as a means to regulate cabin temp.
> There are a few, I know of.
> But a ceramic heater core is wayyyy cheaper...
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Bill Dube
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:10 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
>
> On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
> circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
> cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a ceramic
> element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use the
> ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount of
> power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a hit if
> the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about the same
> energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care about heating
> system efficiency.
>
> Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt pump
> capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
> expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
> tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
> inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches fire.
> You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the reservoir.
> It also is slow to heat up.
>
> It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
> heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
> oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
> location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
> Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>> water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin
> with .
>> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>> elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>> electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
>> real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4709 - Release Date: 12/28/11
>
>

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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Will Schmit
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
Not germane to the thread, but I replace my light bulbs in October and May.
Incandescent light bulbs are 100% efficient, and Compact Fluorescent are only a fraction.
A glowing filament or a heater coil is 100% efficient at producing heat.
To me, it is rather stupid to use light bulbs that produce less heat, just so you can buy gas to heat the house.  Granted, the fraction is small, but so is the fraction regarding efficient use of the gas pedal (a fact of life for an EV owner).



________________________________
 From: Mark Grasser <[hidden email]>
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
 
Ceramic heat vs hot water heat. Any byproduct would be,,, heat. If a small
tank like Roland discussed is properly insulated, I am wondering how one
could be more efficient than the other. Heating elements of different
wattages are available at the local hardware store. Small pumps are used on
many of the engines made today so there are sources for pumps that don't use
much current. Considering the ease of installation vs some of the stories I
have heard about ceramic heater fires in conversions I am convinced I will
be doing hot water heat. With a small half gallon tank I am quite sure the
time to heat will be a lot less than 5 minutes.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:15 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Actually,
If efficiency was the main design parameter,
then every EV would use a heatpump (A.K.A. AirCo)
as a means to regulate cabin temp.
There are a few, I know of.
But a ceramic heater core is wayyyy cheaper...


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a ceramic
element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use the
ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount of
power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a hit if
the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about the same
energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care about heating
system efficiency.

Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt pump
capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches fire.
You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the reservoir.
It also is slow to heat up.

It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.

Bill D.

At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin
with .
>A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
>real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

EVDL Administrator
On 28 Dec 2011 at 18:38, Will Schmit wrote:

> Not germane to the thread, but I replace my light bulbs in October and May.

Correct, it isn't germane to either the thread or the list.  If you have a
response for Will, PLEASE SEND IT OFFLIST to his private email address.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
In reply to this post by Randy
Randy,
   I had my ceramic heater flame.  I had it in the dash but the dash was not
in the car at the time.  Not sure if something shorted but thank goodness I
had a fire extinguisher close by or I would have been replacing the whole
dash.  I had pics on my websites but cox.net has done away with personal
websites.  Burned a hole in the element and then fried the wires.


Buddy Mills
[hidden email]
 
Look mom, no gas. http://www.evalbum.com/2887

Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated.





>I would like to hear one or more of those ceramic heater fires.
We have sold over 3,000 of those heaters in the last 21 years.
NEVER heard of a fire.
Randy



_______________________________________________
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by Randy
Randy,
I did not mention your name, sorry you took it personally. I do remember
over the years hearing of serious issues in reference to problem with
ceramic elements meant for 120 volts AC being used in conjunction with DC
packs enclosed in plastic ductwork. I feel it is far safer using a water
heating element in an aluminum tank to heat water to heat the cabin. Let's
just put this under "personal preference"


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Randy Holmquist
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 9:01 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

I would like to hear one or more of those ceramic heater fires.
We have sold over 3,000 of those heaters in the last 21 years.
NEVER heard of a fire.
Back in the day they used to use wire elements that glowed red hot.
Those caused fires and that's whey we introduced the ceramic heaters to
EV's.
You can power it up and as long as no air is passing over it the element
stops drawing current or at least draws very little. It does not
continue to build heat. I have seen then left on for months on end when
the contactor stays on with no melted ducts.
Has anyone got a documented case of a CERAMIC heater causing a fire?
I think both liquid and ceramic have applications in EV's. Some vehicles
are a very easy installation of the ceramic elements. Lots of modern
cars have pollen filters that are easy to get to. They are on the intake
to the blower motor. We often take the pollen filter out and install the
element (s) in the place of the filter. Very easy install.

BFN
Randy

On 28/12/2011 5:31 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> Ceramic heat vs hot water heat. Any byproduct would be,,, heat. If a small
> tank like Roland discussed is properly insulated, I am wondering how one
> could be more efficient than the other. Heating elements of different
> wattages are available at the local hardware store. Small pumps are used
on
> many of the engines made today so there are sources for pumps that don't
use
> much current. Considering the ease of installation vs some of the stories
I

> have heard about ceramic heater fires in conversions I am convinced I will
> be doing hot water heat. With a small half gallon tank I am quite sure the
> time to heat will be a lot less than 5 minutes.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf

> Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:15 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
>
> Actually,
> If efficiency was the main design parameter,
> then every EV would use a heatpump (A.K.A. AirCo)
> as a means to regulate cabin temp.
> There are a few, I know of.
> But a ceramic heater core is wayyyy cheaper...
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Bill Dube
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:10 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
>
> On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply"
> circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and
> cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a ceramic
> element. It is also considerably more energy efficient to use the
> ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount of
> power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a hit if
> the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about the same
> energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care about heating
> system efficiency.
>
> Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt pump
> capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more
> expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the
> tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it
> inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches fire.
> You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the reservoir.
> It also is slow to heat up.
>
> It turns out to be less work (typically, but not always) to yank the
> heater core and replace it with a ceramic element. You can often be
> oh-so-clever and cut a hole just the right size in just the right
> location to make the swap without tearing the whole dash apart.
> Taking out the old heater core in pieces is OK, keep in mind.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 10:13 AM 12/28/2011, you wrote:
>> why not use the cars already usable heater system and just use hot
>> water. no removing the dash,and all the plumbing, thats a mess to begin
> with .
>> A hot water tank and a few hoses is all you need . most heating
>> elements are about 1200 watts ac or dc it dosnt matter . add a small
>> electric water pump, they pull about 5 amps and youe done .
>> should take about 2 hours to do it . I do this all the time they work
>> real good and you can fry a hot dog at the vents
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Randy
In reply to this post by Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
Were you using it in its designed voltage range and fused for the
correct current?
I know some people were using the 120 volt ones at over 300 volts
instead of buying our high voltage elements.
We have three different elements for various voltages.
I sure would have like to seen the pictures, can you email me some?
Was it one of our elements or one from a space heater?
I would think if it was one of ours I would have heard about it, I hope.

BFN
Randy

On 28/12/2011 6:56 PM, Buddy Mills wrote:

> Randy,
>     I had my ceramic heater flame.  I had it in the dash but the dash was not
> in the car at the time.  Not sure if something shorted but thank goodness I
> had a fire extinguisher close by or I would have been replacing the whole
> dash.  I had pics on my websites but cox.net has done away with personal
> websites.  Burned a hole in the element and then fried the wires.
>
>
> Buddy Mills
> [hidden email]
>  
> Look mom, no gas. http://www.evalbum.com/2887
>
> Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
> email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
> or greatly exaggerated.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I would like to hear one or more of those ceramic heater fires.
> We have sold over 3,000 of those heaters in the last 21 years.
> NEVER heard of a fire.
> Randy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>

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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
On 12/28/2011 7:31 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> Ceramic heat vs hot water heat. Any byproduct would be heat. If a small
> tank like Roland discussed is properly insulated, I am wondering how one
> could be more efficient than the other?

Some heat is inevitably radiated from the tank, pump, and hoses. If
these parts are outside of the space being heated, then the heat
radiated from these parts is lost, and thus lowers the heating efficiency.

> Heating elements of different wattages are available at the local
> hardware store.

Yes, to a point. However, it is common for electric heaters to advertise
incorrect wattage ratings for marketing purposes (the bigger the number,
the better it sells). You need to measure the wattage or current
yourself to know what you have.

Ceramic heaters are notorious for this, as their resistance changes
depending on temperature, airflow, applied voltage, etc.

> Small pumps are used on many of the engines made today so there
> are sources for pumps that don't use much current.

That's good to know. Most little pumps are going to be plastic, and
intended for windshield washers etc, and would melt if asked to pump
boiling hot water. There are a few pumps intended for hot coolant, but
they only run for a few seconds at a time.

What specific pumps did you have in mind that are built for continuous
duty with hot water?

> Considering the ease of installation vs some of the stories I
> have heard about ceramic heater fires in conversions

It's not hard to start a fire with a red-hot-wire nichrome heater --
just let it suck in some dry leaves. It's much harder with a ceramic
element. The usual method is for it to suck in something conductive that
bridges across the two metal sides of the ceramic element and so gets
red hot or strikes an arc. Many of the heater housings are plastic, and
burn very nicely.

Another method is to have something block the airflow (snow, leaves), or
have the fan fail. Then the heating element can overheat, and melt its
plastic housing. The heating element can then shift position, and touch
or short to something that starts a fire.

Sadly, people tend to design heaters for best-case operation, and not
think about the consequences if something goes wrong.

--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
        -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Why conversions don't keep water heat

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Will Schmit
On 12/28/2011 8:38 PM, Will Schmit wrote:
> Not germane to the thread, but I replace my light bulbs in October and May.
> Incandescent light bulbs are 100% efficient, and Compact Fluorescent are only a fraction.
> A glowing filament or a heater coil is 100% efficient at producing heat.
> To me, it is rather stupid to use light bulbs that produce less heat, just so you can buy gas to heat the house.  Granted, the fraction is small, but so is the fraction regarding efficient use of the gas pedal (a fact of life for an EV owner).

I think what Will is saying is that if you are heating the space
electrically, then you might was well use incandescent light bulbs. The
"waste heat" isn't wasted; it's heating the space. I agree.

If you're heating the space with some other form of energy (natural gas,
propane, oil, etc.), then it's a question of which fuel you prefer to
heat with -- gas, oil, or electricity.

Germain to this thread... in fact, it would be better to heat an EV with
some fossil fuel (gasoline, diesel, etc.). These fuels are especially
efficient at producing heat. I had a gas heater in one of my EVs; but
I'll confess that it went against the "purist" in me, so I took it out
and went back to electric heat. :-)

--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
        -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: heaters

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Hi Roland,

Isn't using an inverter rather wasteful due to its inefficiency?  
Could you not use the pack voltage with a small mains (120VAC) water  
heater with built-in temperature regulation, add a small pump (don't  
know which would be easier/better - 120VDC or 12VDC) and suitable  
safety circuit and you would have just as cheap a solution but a lot  
more efficient?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

On 28 Dec 2011, at 18:52, Roland Wiench wrote:

> I use the same hot water heater setup.  I went to my independent  
> auto parts
> store and bought a 1000 watt engine heater for a big rig diesel  
> truck.  It's
> a long 18 inch by 2 inch diameter stainless steel heater with built  
> in tank
> that has a optional plug in thermo control and pump.
>
> Instead of using the heater pumps, I use a external 120 vac 0.5 amp
> circulating pump that is use in heating systems which is control by a
> Honeywell thermo control.
>
> The pump and thermo control is power by my on board 6000 watt 120  
> vac 60 Hz
> inverter which also is use to run other ac fans, blowers, and two  
> additional
> heaters that stages up as the temperature drops to 30 below.
>
> Use a small expansion tank that has a pressure cap on it which is  
> normally
> mounted remotely up higher than the heater core for a radiator that is
> mounted lower than the engine on a low slung vehicle.
>
> Used a on dash 30 amp rocker switch where I can either select the on  
> board
> power systems or selected the 120 VAC 60 Hz outboard power which I  
> use to
> preheat the heating system and cab up to 80 F. about 15 minutes  
> before I
> leave.
>
> Install this heating system in 1980 and has been working perfectly  
> ever
> since.
>
> Roland
>



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Re: heaters

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water

On 28 Dec 2011, at 22:34, Cor van de Water wrote:
>
>
> The trade-off for hot water / ceramic heater core is:
> - hot water is easy to install (just attach to the hoses
>  at the opposite side of the firewall), but you may be
>  waiting more than 5 mins before there is heat in the cabin
>

... unless you pre-heat the cabin (ideally using mains power in some  
cunning way... timer, internet etc).

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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