help me rebut this

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help me rebut this

SteveS-5
This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
the crux.

In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?

I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.

Thanks,

- SteveS


> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>
> by Sunil Somalwar
>
> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>
> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>
> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today’s
> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>
> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> and should stay on it.
>
> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> emissions are irrelevant.
>
> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> this electric cart before the horse.
> ------
>
> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> Volt website.
> ------
>
> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club’s New Jersey
> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org


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Re: help me rebut this

David Nelson-5
Steve,

This has been discussed in the past, I believe. One thing they don't
include in the gas only Prius is the energy used to get the gasoline
into the tank of the Prius. I don't know how the energy  compares
between getting oil out of the ground to the refineries and getting
coal out of the ground to the powerplant but it seems to me that if
they are going to count the powerplant as the starting point for the
electricity they should count the refinery as the starting point for
the gas. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if doing this would
turn their argument around.

In any case, they gave very vague references so it would be nearly
impossible to find what info they used for the analysis. A better
documented well-to-wheels analysis is given at
http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php. Even though
they use a natural gas fired plant for the electricity the multiple
specific references may give you a starting point.

HTH,

David Nelson

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:47 AM, SteveS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
> the crux.
>
> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>
> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - SteveS
>
>
>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>
>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>
>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
>>
>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>
>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>
>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
>> and should stay on it.
>>
>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>
>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>> this electric cart before the horse.
>> ------
>>
>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>> Volt website.
>> ------
>>
>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328


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Re: help me rebut this

BBrown
In reply to this post by SteveS-5
SteveS wrote:

> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
> the crux.
>
> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>
> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - SteveS
>
>
>  
>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>
>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>
>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>>
>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
>> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>
>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today’s
>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>
>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
>> and should stay on it.
>>
>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>
>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>> this electric cart before the horse.
>> ------
>>
>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>> Volt website.
>> ------
>>
>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club’s New Jersey
>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>  
The writer of the above article is active in the Sierra Club. I suspect
his facts are slanted/shadowed in favor of his personal ideology. (Not
sure what coal fired power plants have to do with Saving Wild Tigers though)

The first question to answer is, How much of the power on the grid is
attributed to coal, vs. nuclear, vs. hydroelectric?
It all has to factor in.

What is the ratio of Prius(s) on the road to ten year old Fords and
Chevy and Dodge cars and trucks?
You would have to factor worst case vs. best case scenarios. i.e. the
use of the average auto burning gasoline - efficient, good repair, clean
burning, no oil burning or dripping, etc. or brand new absolutely state
of the art computer controlled efficient gas burner.
Same with the power plants - how much of the materials in the stacks is
scrubbed out and reclaimed - much is and recycled - carbon, as well as
other minerals can be (indeed are mandated to be) removed from the final
stack emission.
Some power plants may be old coal burning smoke belchers, while other
power plants are clean (at least in terms of air emissions) hydro, and
on and on...
Truth is, we have put just one single nuclear plant online (Watts Bar -
TVA - completed 1996) since the Three Mile Island meltdown (March '79)
so all the other existing plants online are at least 30 year old
technology. Seems to me they could be built more efficient and safer
today - we are smarter now aren't we? Just because the 30+ year old
designs were flawed, seems to me we could redesign with newer technology?

A family member who runs a power plant in PA spends much of his time
trying to find outlets for the heat and other materials "scrubbed" from
the stack. He is documented as one of the cleanest co-gen plants in the
mid atlantic region, and he's burning waste coal and (hold onto your
hats) ground up recycled tires. Come to find out, in PA there is a $2.00
recycling fee whenever you purchase a new tire. With all the millions of
tires running around the countryside, you would think that 2 times
millions of dollars would go to recycling - but noooooo, not under our
current regime. That $2.00 gets siphoned into mass transit in
Philadelphia and Pittsburg.

I remain convinced that at the end of the day my Electric S10, while
perhaps not the absolute BEST option in history, is for me right now the
better of the options available to me.
It seems that everybody, especially in an election cycle, has their
opinions, and will search high and low for chapter and verse to
substantiate their pre-conceived notions.
The only thing I REALLY know is you don't have to look too hard to find
someone smarter then me, so normally I try to keep my mouth shut. So
many questions, too many opinions, not enough real science/research.

I'm going back out to the shop and get my head down and out of the line
of fire from the flame throwers - also I have a brand new set of lead
acid batteries to install. I wonder whose pockets my "core charge" (24
times $12.00) went into?
Bob


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Re: help me rebut this

Peter VanDerWal
> The first question to answer is, How much of the power on the grid is
> attributed to coal, vs. nuclear, vs. hydroelectric?
> It all has to factor in.

71.4% of the electricity in the USA comes from fossil fuels, mostly coal.
20.7% Nuclear, 5.6% Hydro and everything else (wind, solar, renewable,
etc) 2.3%

>
> What is the ratio of Prius(s) on the road to ten year old Fords and
> Chevy and Dodge cars and trucks?

What does that have to do with the price of Tea in China?
This is what's called a Red Herring arguement.  It has nothing to do with
EV vs Prius.

> Truth is, we have put just one single nuclear plant online (Watts Bar -
> TVA - completed 1996) since the Three Mile Island meltdown (March '79)
> so all the other existing plants online are at least 30 year old
> technology. Seems to me they could be built more efficient and safer
> today - we are smarter now aren't we? Just because the 30+ year old
> designs were flawed, seems to me we could redesign with newer technology?

Safer?!? The safety record for US nuclear is pretty impressive.

Safety and efficiency have nothing to do with why they aren't building new
Nukes.  It's all about NIMBY
Not that I'm advocating Nukes, I prefer wind & solar.




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Re: help me rebut this

bearlkbob
In reply to this post by SteveS-5

 Rather than researching the numbers, lets just look at a couple of the author's assumptions. Others will find more.
1. In my area coal produces a declining percentage of the electricity, with  nuclear,  wind, and  even hydro contributing
over 20% AT PRESENT. The future will be cleaner.
2. If we must burn hydrocarbon fuels, it is a whole lot easier to clean up a generating plant than a million tailpipes. (yes the technology is coming)
3. Most cars will charge at night. Studies have shown that aggregate demand for generating capacity will not increase.
In other words, the plants we have now will do fine. We just need to recapture the CO2. (no mean trick, but drilling in the arctic ain't easy either.)
I am not a PHD in physics. I know that these vehicles will present problems. It is just that the problems they present
are so much more palatable than the petro alternative. I love the Prius. It is a step to where we need to be. So are EVs. It does not take a lot of brains to push for several better options.
Bob Polgreen
Nowthen MN


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: SteveS <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 1:47 pm
Subject: [EVDL] help me rebut this










This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
the crux.

In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,20based
on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?

I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.

Thanks,

- SteveS


> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>
> by Sunil Somalwar
>
> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>
> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> that kilowatt-hour of elec
tricity, which means that I get only one

> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>
> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today’s
> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>
> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> mass transit where rapid accelerati
on is essential. On the other hand,

> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> and should stay on it.
>
> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> emissions are irrelevant.
>
> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> this electric cart before the horse.
>20------
>
> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> Volt website.
> ------
>
> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club’s New Jersey
> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org


_______________________________________________
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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



 


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Re: help me rebut this

Peter VanDerWal
> 2. If we must burn hydrocarbon fuels, it is a whole lot easier to clean up
> a generating plant than a million tailpipes. (yes the technology is
> coming)
> 3. Most cars will charge at night. Studies have shown that aggregate
> demand for generating capacity will not increase.

That's the right track.  It's not how much pollution is created to power
the EV, it's how much EXTRA is produce vs not using an EV.
By charging at night we help the power companies produce power more
efficiently, this results in lower pollution per watt.  It's entirely
possible that this load leveling, while producing more energy, will result
in very little increase in pollution vs the current production.
The question then becomes "How much more pollution do we create by
powering EVs from coal, vs not power them"

However, this is a much more difficult question to answer.



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Re: help me rebut this

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by SteveS-5
I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that  
it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of  
gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge  
a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is  
true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical power  
consumption would decrease, not increase.

On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:

> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's  
> long,
> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs  
> are
> the crux.
>
> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,  
> based
> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>
> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to  
> see
> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - SteveS
>
>
>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>
>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>
>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged  
>> that
>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>>
>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by  
>> burning
>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story  
>> with
>> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>
>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.  
>> The
>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue  
>> that
>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This  
>> argument
>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today’s
>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every  
>> new
>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>
>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the  
>> hoopla
>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going  
>> to
>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other  
>> hand,
>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
>> and should stay on it.
>>
>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic  
>> coal
>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>
>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>> this electric cart before the horse.
>> ------
>>
>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>> Volt website.
>> ------
>>
>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics  
>> at
>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club’s New Jersey
>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ 
> ev



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Here's your proof (was: help me rebut this)

Peter VanDerWal
> I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
> it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
> gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
> a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
> true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical power
> consumption would decrease, not increase.

Hmm good idea,

Many refineries use Cogeneration and need very little outside electricity
(not saying it doesn't take energy, just that they produce their own)

This article indicates that it takes about 7kwh to refine 1 barrel of oil.
 that's based on their "hypothetical" refinery.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html

I think an easier way to dispute this is by BTUs.

It takes 1.23 BTUs to produce 1 BTU worth of gasoline:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/agdm/articles/hof/HofJuly07.html
1 gallon of gasoline = 124,000 Btu
So it takes 152,520 BTUs to produce 1 gallon of gasoline.
It takes approx 10,242 BTUs to produce 1kwh of electricity in a coal
burning plant.

So for the same energy input (which has to come from somewhere and most
likely produces pollution) 1 gallon of gasoline = 14.64 KWhrs of
electricity.

I think at this point the EV wins without even considering the pollution
coming from the Prius' tailpipe.


So there's your proof.

Thanks, by the way.  I wouldn't have looked into this without the original
question and the point about the energy needed to produce gasoline.


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Addemdum Re: Here's your proof (was: help me rebut this)

Peter VanDerWal
> It takes 1.23 BTUs to produce 1 BTU worth of gasoline:
> http://www.extension.iastate.edu/agdm/articles/hof/HofJuly07.html
> 1 gallon of gasoline = 124,000 Btu
> So it takes 152,520 BTUs to produce 1 gallon of gasoline.
> It takes approx 10,242 BTUs to produce 1kwh of electricity in a coal
> burning plant.

I forgot to mention,  the 10,242 Btu/kWh assumed a coal plant operating at
about 33% (old plant)

Most modern plants are hitting >40% and new Gas turbine combined-cycle
plants have achieved 5690 Btu/kWh

Which puts the EVs even further ahead of the Prius.

Plus there is the whole point of using some electricity to produce
gasoline.  This requires a double conversion( Btus to kWh to Btus to
Gasoline)
That probably adds another couple thousand Btus to the gallon of gas.


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EVs use less electricity per mile than ICEs! (was: help me rebut this)

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Roger Heuckeroth
If we look at:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html

We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.

         A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.

         There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
switched to EVs.

         This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND electricity!






At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:

>I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
>it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
>gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
>a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
>true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical power
>consumption would decrease, not increase.
>
>On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
>
> > This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
> > long,
> > but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs
> > are
> > the crux.
> >
> > In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
> > based
> > on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> > Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
> >
> > I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to
> > see
> > if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - SteveS
> >
> >
> >> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
> >>
> >> by Sunil Somalwar
> >>
> >> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
> >> that
> >> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> >> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> >> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> >> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> >> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> >> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> >> rely on somebody else's opinion.
> >>
> >> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> >> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
> >> burning
> >> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> >> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> >> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> >> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> >> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> >> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> >> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> >> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> >> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
> >> with
> >> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
> >>
> >> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.
> >> The
> >> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
> >> that
> >> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> >> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
> >> argument
> >> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
> >> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every
> >> new
> >> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> >> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> >> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> >> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> >> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
> >>
> >> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> >> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
> >> hoopla
> >> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> >> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going
> >> to
> >> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> >> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> >> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
> >> hand,
> >> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> >> and should stay on it.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> >> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> >> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> >> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> >> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> >> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> >> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> >> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> >> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> >> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> >> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> >> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> >> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> >> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> >> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
> >> coal
> >> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> >> emissions are irrelevant.
> >>
> >> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> >> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> >> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> >> this electric cart before the horse.
> >> ------
> >>
> >> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> >> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> >> Volt website.
> >> ------
> >>
> >> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics
> >> at
> >> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
> >> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> > ev
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Math correction! Re: EVs use less electricity per mile than ICEs! (was: help me rebut this)

Bill Dube
160000 barrels/day = 6720000 gallons
gallons per hour = 280000
94 Mw

94000 Kw/280000 = 0.336 kW/gal

An EV would go 2 miles on this electricity, not 80 miles

Sorry about the math error. (Forgot to factor in the Days/hour unit
conversion)

Bill Dube'



At 03:28 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:

>If we look at:
>http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html
>
>We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
>About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
>doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
>about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.
>
>          A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
>Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.
>
>          There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
>mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
>and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
>produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
>switched to EVs.
>
>          This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
>considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
>gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND electricity!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
> >I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
> >it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
> >gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
> >a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
> >true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical power
> >consumption would decrease, not increase.
> >
> >On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
> >
> > > This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
> > > long,
> > > but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs
> > > are
> > > the crux.
> > >
> > > In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
> > > based
> > > on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> > > Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
> > >
> > > I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to
> > > see
> > > if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - SteveS
> > >
> > >
> > >> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
> > >>
> > >> by Sunil Somalwar
> > >>
> > >> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
> > >> that
> > >> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> > >> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> > >> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> > >> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> > >> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> > >> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> > >> rely on somebody else's opinion.
> > >>
> > >> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> > >> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
> > >> burning
> > >> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> > >> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> > >> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> > >> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> > >> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> > >> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> > >> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> > >> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> > >> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
> > >> with
> > >> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
> > >>
> > >> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.
> > >> The
> > >> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
> > >> that
> > >> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> > >> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
> > >> argument
> > >> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
> > >> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every
> > >> new
> > >> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> > >> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> > >> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> > >> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> > >> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
> > >>
> > >> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> > >> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
> > >> hoopla
> > >> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> > >> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going
> > >> to
> > >> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> > >> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> > >> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
> > >> hand,
> > >> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> > >> and should stay on it.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> > >> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> > >> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> > >> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> > >> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> > >> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> > >> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> > >> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> > >> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> > >> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> > >> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> > >> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> > >> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> > >> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> > >> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
> > >> coal
> > >> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> > >> emissions are irrelevant.
> > >>
> > >> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> > >> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> > >> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> > >> this electric cart before the horse.
> > >> ------
> > >>
> > >> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> > >> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> > >> Volt website.
> > >> ------
> > >>
> > >> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics
> > >> at
> > >> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
> > >> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> > > ev
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> >For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Re: help me rebut this

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by SteveS-5
See: http://www.co2captureandstorage.info/

We just got done building one of these plants at Beulah N.D. that sends the
co2 into a Canada oil pipe line, and they injected into there oil fields
that improves the oil basin.  They then ship the oil back to us to a
experimental oil refinery here in Great Falls, Montana.

They are going to build a coal to experimental liquid refinery north from us
that will not have a open stack like the oil field injection type.

Anyway, I still do not have to buy the energy from them.  I purchase my
energy from five dams here in Great Falls, where the water energy is recycle
to run the next set of six generators at each dam.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "SteveS" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:47 PM
Subject: [EVDL] help me rebut this


This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
the crux.

In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?

I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.

Thanks,

- SteveS


> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>
> by Sunil Somalwar
>
> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>
> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>
> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today’s
> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>
> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> and should stay on it.
>
> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> emissions are irrelevant.
>
> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> this electric cart before the horse.
> ------
>
> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> Volt website.
> ------
>
> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club’s New Jersey
> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org


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Re: help me rebut this

SteveS-5
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Thanks all for the input. I think the guy took one data questionable
point and extrapolated out from there. I did a quick reply earlier that
included the concept of it's easier to clean up pollution from a few
stationary sources rather than many moving ones. I also researched a bit
and found his value of CO2 output for coal was somewhat high.
Additionally I noted that many home built EVs get better mileage than
what he claimed the plug-in Prius is supposed to get. I'll add on some
of this other data and formulate a more detailed response.

Jeez - we really don't need anti-EV folks out there.

- SteveS

Bill Dube wrote:

> 160000 barrels/day = 6720000 gallons
> gallons per hour = 280000
> 94 Mw
>
> 94000 Kw/280000 = 0.336 kW/gal
>
> An EV would go 2 miles on this electricity, not 80 miles
>
> Sorry about the math error. (Forgot to factor in the Days/hour unit
> conversion)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> At 03:28 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
>> If we look at:
>> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html
>>
>> We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
>> About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
>> doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
>> about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.
>>
>>          A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
>> Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.
>>
>>          There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
>> mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
>> and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
>> produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
>> switched to EVs.
>>
>>          This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
>> considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
>> gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND electricity!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
>>> I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
>>> it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
>>> gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
>>> a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
>>> true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical power
>>> consumption would decrease, not increase.
>>>
>>> On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
>>>
>>>> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
>>>> long,
>>>> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs
>>>> are
>>>> the crux.
>>>>
>>>> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
>>>> based
>>>> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
>>>> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>>>>
>>>> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to
>>>> see
>>>> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> - SteveS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>>>>
>>>>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>>>>
>>>>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
>>>>> that
>>>>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>>>>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>>>>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>>>>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>>>>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>>>>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>>>>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>>>>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
>>>>> burning
>>>>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>>>>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>>>>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>>>>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>>>>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>>>>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>>>>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>>>>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>>>>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
>>>>> with
>>>>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.
>>>>> The
>>>>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
>>>>> that
>>>>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
>>>>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
>>>>> argument
>>>>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
>>>>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every
>>>>> new
>>>>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>>>>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>>>>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>>>>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
>>>>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
>>>>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
>>>>> hoopla
>>>>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>>>>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going
>>>>> to
>>>>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
>>>>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
>>>>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
>>>>> hand,
>>>>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
>>>>> and should stay on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>>>>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>>>>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
>>>>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>>>>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
>>>>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>>>>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
>>>>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>>>>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
>>>>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>>>>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>>>>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>>>>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>>>>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>>>>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
>>>>> coal
>>>>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>>>>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>>>>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>>>>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>>>>> this electric cart before the horse.
>>>>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>>>>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>>>>> Volt website.
>>>>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics
>>>>> at
>>>>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
>>>>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
>>>> ev
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1558 - Release Date: 7/17/2008 9:56 AM
>
>
>


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Re: EVs use less electricity per mile than ICEs! (was: help me rebut this)

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Yes, and what's up with a Prius only getting 2.5 miles per kWhr.  That  
isn't right.  The plug in Prius (Calcars.org) gets 20 mile on a 5 kWhr  
pack. This article sounds like it was sponsored by Big Oil, or our  
current administration.

On Jul 17, 2008, at 5:28 PM, Bill Dube wrote:

> If we look at:
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html
>
> We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
> About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
> doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
> about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.
>
>         A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
> Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.
>
>         There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
> mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
> and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
> produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
> switched to EVs.
>
>         This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
> considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
> gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND electricity!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
>> I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
>> it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
>> gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
>> a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
>> true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical  
>> power
>> consumption would decrease, not increase.
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
>>
>>> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
>>> long,
>>> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs
>>> are
>>> the crux.
>>>
>>> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
>>> based
>>> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
>>> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>>>
>>> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to
>>> see
>>> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> - SteveS
>>>
>>>
>>>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>>>
>>>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>>>
>>>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
>>>> that
>>>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune  
>>>> must
>>>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice  
>>>> that
>>>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>>>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a  
>>>> wall
>>>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the  
>>>> numbers
>>>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need  
>>>> not
>>>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>>>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
>>>> burning
>>>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>>>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit  
>>>> any
>>>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>>>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a  
>>>> coal
>>>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>>>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles  
>>>> on
>>>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>>>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg  
>>>> Prius
>>>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
>>>> with
>>>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>>>
>>>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.
>>>> The
>>>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
>>>> that
>>>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not  
>>>> assume
>>>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
>>>> argument
>>>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because  
>>>> today's
>>>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every
>>>> new
>>>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>>>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>>>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>>>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not  
>>>> to
>>>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>>>
>>>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a  
>>>> tightening
>>>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
>>>> hoopla
>>>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>>>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going
>>>> to
>>>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of  
>>>> our
>>>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as  
>>>> in
>>>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
>>>> hand,
>>>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on  
>>>> gasoline
>>>> and should stay on it.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>>>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>>>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation  
>>>> and
>>>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>>>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On  
>>>> top of
>>>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>>>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation  
>>>> sector.
>>>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>>>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel).  
>>>> Environmentalists
>>>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>>>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>>>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>>>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>>>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>>>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
>>>> coal
>>>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>>>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>>>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>>>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>>>> this electric cart before the horse.
>>>> ------
>>>>
>>>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>>>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>>>> Volt website.
>>>> ------
>>>>
>>>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics
>>>> at
>>>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
>>>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/ 
>>> listinfo/
>>> ev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ 
> ev


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Re: EVs use less electricity per mile than ICEs! (was: help me rebut this)

Peter VanDerWal
> Yes, and what's up with a Prius only getting 2.5 miles per kWhr.  That
> isn't right.  The plug in Prius (Calcars.org) gets 20 mile on a 5 kWhr
> pack. This article sounds like it was sponsored by Big Oil, or our
> current administration.
>

That's a pretty common mistake.  The energy stored in the pack DOES NOT
EQUAL the energy required from the outlet to recharge the pack.
You've neglected to consider the efficiency of the charger AND the
battery's energy efficiency.
If the charger is 80% efficient and the battery is 75% (Wh efficiency not
Ah), then 250 wh per mile from the pack becomes about 400 wh per mile from
the outlet.
i.e. 2.5 miles per kWh


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Re: help me rebut this

Roger Heuckeroth
In reply to this post by SteveS-5
For what its worth, back in the early 90s I did some environmental  
work at a Texas City Refinery.  Besides the lakes of spilt product  
that they are floating on, there is huge amounts of waste energy at  
these refineries.  I have a hard time believing the number if as low  
as 0.336 kWhr/gal.

On Jul 17, 2008, at 6:14 PM, SteveS wrote:

> Thanks all for the input. I think the guy took one data questionable
> point and extrapolated out from there. I did a quick reply earlier  
> that
> included the concept of it's easier to clean up pollution from a few
> stationary sources rather than many moving ones. I also researched a  
> bit
> and found his value of CO2 output for coal was somewhat high.
> Additionally I noted that many home built EVs get better mileage than
> what he claimed the plug-in Prius is supposed to get. I'll add on some
> of this other data and formulate a more detailed response.
>
> Jeez - we really don't need anti-EV folks out there.
>
> - SteveS
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>> 160000 barrels/day = 6720000 gallons
>> gallons per hour = 280000
>> 94 Mw
>>
>> 94000 Kw/280000 = 0.336 kW/gal
>>
>> An EV would go 2 miles on this electricity, not 80 miles
>>
>> Sorry about the math error. (Forgot to factor in the Days/hour unit
>> conversion)
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>
>>
>> At 03:28 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
>>> If we look at:
>>> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html
>>>
>>> We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
>>> About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
>>> doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
>>> about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.
>>>
>>>         A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
>>> Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.
>>>
>>>         There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
>>> mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
>>> and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
>>> produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
>>> switched to EVs.
>>>
>>>         This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
>>> considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
>>> gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND  
>>> electricity!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
>>>> I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading  
>>>> that
>>>> it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one  
>>>> gallon of
>>>> gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to  
>>>> charge
>>>> a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
>>>> true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical  
>>>> power
>>>> consumption would decrease, not increase.
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
>>>>> long,
>>>>> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple  
>>>>> paragraphs
>>>>> are
>>>>> the crux.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
>>>>> based
>>>>> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than  
>>>>> gas.
>>>>> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just  
>>>>> want to
>>>>> see
>>>>> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> - SteveS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good  
>>>>>> fortune must
>>>>>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice  
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>>>>>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into  
>>>>>> a wall
>>>>>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the  
>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one  
>>>>>> need not
>>>>>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a  
>>>>>> gallon of
>>>>>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
>>>>>> burning
>>>>>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>>>>>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not  
>>>>>> emit any
>>>>>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>>>>>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a  
>>>>>> coal
>>>>>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According  
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5  
>>>>>> miles on
>>>>>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only  
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg  
>>>>>> Prius
>>>>>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde  
>>>>>> behavior.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not  
>>>>>> assume
>>>>>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
>>>>>> argument
>>>>>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because  
>>>>>> today's
>>>>>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However,  
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much  
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>>>>>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really,  
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal,  
>>>>>> not to
>>>>>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a  
>>>>>> tightening
>>>>>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
>>>>>> hoopla
>>>>>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007  
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is  
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half  
>>>>>> of our
>>>>>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such  
>>>>>> as in
>>>>>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
>>>>>> hand,
>>>>>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on  
>>>>>> gasoline
>>>>>> and should stay on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an  
>>>>>> economic
>>>>>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will  
>>>>>> decrease
>>>>>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less  
>>>>>> conservation and
>>>>>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free  
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On  
>>>>>> top of
>>>>>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>>>>>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation  
>>>>>> sector.
>>>>>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>>>>>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel).  
>>>>>> Environmentalists
>>>>>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>>>>>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>>>>>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>>>>>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>>>>>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>>>>>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
>>>>>> coal
>>>>>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>>>>>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank  
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make  
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not  
>>>>>> put
>>>>>> this electric cart before the horse.
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>>>>>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and  
>>>>>> the GM
>>>>>> Volt website.
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of  
>>>>>> Physics
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New  
>>>>>> Jersey
>>>>>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
>>>>> ev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1558 - Release Date:  
>> 7/17/2008 9:56 AM
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ 
> ev


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Re: EVs use less electricity per mile than ICEs! (was: help me rebut this)

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Roger Heuckeroth
Table 3.3 of the EIA report seems to indicate the electricity usage is only
7.32kWh per barrel of oil processed???

Z

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Roger Heuckeroth <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Yes, and what's up with a Prius only getting 2.5 miles per kWhr.  That
> isn't right.  The plug in Prius (Calcars.org) gets 20 mile on a 5 kWhr
> pack. This article sounds like it was sponsored by Big Oil, or our
> current administration.
>
> On Jul 17, 2008, at 5:28 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
>
> > If we look at:
> >
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/special/california/june01article/carefinery.html
> >
> > We see that it takes about a 500 kW-hrs to process a barrel of oil.
> > About half becomes gasoline and let's give them the benefit of the
> > doubt and say that the rest is diesel fuel. This indeed works out to
> > about 12 kW-hr per gallon of oil processed.
> >
> >         A well-designed four-passenger EV gets better than 150
> > Wh/mile. 12 kW-hrs would allow this EV to travel 80 miles.
> >
> >         There are no four passenger gasoline OEM cars that get 80
> > mpg, so, indeed, we would use less electricity if we all drove EVs
> > and shut down the refineries that would no longer be needed to
> > produce gasoline. Electricity use would actually go DOWN if we all
> > switched to EVs.
> >
> >         This is a very interesting perspective that I had not
> > considered before. An EV uses less electricity per mile than a
> > gasoline-powered car uses! The ICE car uses BOTH oil AND electricity!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 02:48 PM 7/17/2008, you wrote:
> >> I wish I had the source to back this up, but I remember reading that
> >> it takes 12 kWhr of electricity in the refinery to make one gallon of
> >> gasoline from oil.  So look at it this way, use the 12 kWhr to charge
> >> a battery pack of a EV and you get 40-50 mile of range.  If this is
> >> true we could all switch over to EVs and our national electrical
> >> power
> >> consumption would decrease, not increase.
> >>
> >> On Jul 17, 2008, at 2:47 PM, SteveS wrote:
> >>
> >>> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's
> >>> long,
> >>> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs
> >>> are
> >>> the crux.
> >>>
> >>> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius,
> >>> based
> >>> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> >>> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
> >>>
> >>> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to
> >>> see
> >>> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> - SteveS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
> >>>>
> >>>> by Sunil Somalwar
> >>>>
> >>>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged
> >>>> that
> >>>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune
> >>>> must
> >>>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice
> >>>> that
> >>>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> >>>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a
> >>>> wall
> >>>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the
> >>>> numbers
> >>>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need
> >>>> not
> >>>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> >>>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by
> >>>> burning
> >>>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> >>>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit
> >>>> any
> >>>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> >>>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a
> >>>> coal
> >>>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> >>>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles
> >>>> on
> >>>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> >>>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg
> >>>> Prius
> >>>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story
> >>>> with
> >>>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
> >>>>
> >>>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior.
> >>>> The
> >>>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue
> >>>> that
> >>>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not
> >>>> assume
> >>>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This
> >>>> argument
> >>>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because
> >>>> today's
> >>>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every
> >>>> new
> >>>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> >>>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> >>>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> >>>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not
> >>>> to
> >>>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
> >>>>
> >>>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a
> >>>> tightening
> >>>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the
> >>>> hoopla
> >>>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> >>>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going
> >>>> to
> >>>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of
> >>>> our
> >>>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as
> >>>> in
> >>>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other
> >>>> hand,
> >>>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on
> >>>> gasoline
> >>>> and should stay on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> >>>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> >>>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation
> >>>> and
> >>>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> >>>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On
> >>>> top of
> >>>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> >>>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation
> >>>> sector.
> >>>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> >>>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel).
> >>>> Environmentalists
> >>>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> >>>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> >>>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> >>>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> >>>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> >>>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic
> >>>> coal
> >>>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> >>>> emissions are irrelevant.
> >>>>
> >>>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> >>>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> >>>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> >>>> this electric cart before the horse.
> >>>> ------
> >>>>
> >>>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> >>>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> >>>> Volt website.
> >>>> ------
> >>>>
> >>>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics
> >>>> at
> >>>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
> >>>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> >>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/
> >>> listinfo/
> >>> ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> >> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> > ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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Re: help me rebut this

Robert MacDowell
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Roland Wiench wrote:
> See: http://www.co2captureandstorage.info/
>
> We just got done building one of these plants at Beulah N.D. that sends the
> co2 into a Canada oil pipe line, and they injected into there oil fields
> that improves the oil basin.  They then ship the oil back to us to a
> experimental oil refinery here in Great Falls, Montana.

CO2 sequestration is an insane concept.  You're digging up "C", burning
it for personal convenience giving CO2, then sequestering the CO2.  So
you're not actually sequestering carbon, you're sequestering OXYGEN.

Big mistake.  We need oxygen to breathe.

> From: "SteveS" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:47 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] help me rebut this
>
>
> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
> the crux.
>
> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>
> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - SteveS
>
>
>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>
>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>
>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>> rely on somebody else’s opinion.
>>
>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
>> GM’s upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>
>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline.

Absolute raving bunk.

It's wrong in at least two ways - simplest first, efficiency.  Gas
engines are ~20% efficient and coal plants are ~35% efficient.

And then there's the energy release from the chemical reactions, as
compared to the CO2 output.  It might be lower for coal but no way is it
double.  I can't find a reference to prove it though.

So yeah, yet again this is a case of people being sloppy, considering
only the PARTS of the equation that advance their preconceived notion,
and playing smoke and mirrors with the rest.


Robert


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Re: help me rebut this

tigerbody
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Wow!I didn't realize you were so involved in the major oil industry.
Sounds like you are right in the middle of it.


On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> See: http://www.co2captureandstorage.info/
>
> We just got done building one of these plants at Beulah N.D. that sends the


Wow!I didn't realize you were so involved in the major oil industry.
Sounds like you are right in the middle of it.


>
> co2 into a Canada oil pipe line, and they injected into there oil fields
> that improves the oil basin.  They then ship the oil back to us to a
> experimental oil refinery here in Great Falls, Montana.


Sounds interesting.
I thought Canada only had "Shoal Oil"



>
>
> They are going to build a coal to experimental liquid refinery north from
> us
> that will not have a open stack like the oil field injection type.
>
> Anyway, I still do not have to buy the energy from them.  I purchase my
> energy from five dams here in Great Falls, where the water energy is
> recycle
> to run the next set of six generators at each dam.


You get a choice?

Gee, here on the Big Island of Hawai'i, we get the choice of paying "HELCO"
over 24 cents per KiloWatt-hour... or do it our selves.

I am sure if there were some choice here, consumers would go for that.
Can you have your company build a pipeline to us?


>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "SteveS" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:47 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] help me rebut this
>
>
> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
> the crux.
>
> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>
> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - SteveS
>
>
> > Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
> >
> > by Sunil Somalwar
> >
> > To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
> > a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
> > be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
> > since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
> > generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
> > socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
> > needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
> > rely on somebody else's opinion.
> >
> > Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
> > gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
> > a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
> > emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
> > CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
> > electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
> > plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
> > Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
> > that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
> > mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
> > becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
> > GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
> >
> > The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
> > problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
> > since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
> > that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
> > does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
> > highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
> > electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
> > difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
> > personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
> > then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
> > reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
> >
> > The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
> > electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
> > about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
> > more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
> > be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
> > electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
> > mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
> > as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
> > and should stay on it.
> >
> > Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
> > one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
> > price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
> > increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
> > gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
> > emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
> > there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
> > Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
> > lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
> > justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
> > realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
> > transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
> > political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
> > efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
> > noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
> > is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
> > emissions are irrelevant.
> >
> > As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
> > step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
> > after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
> > this electric cart before the horse.
> > ------
> >
> > Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
> > engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
> > Volt website.
> > ------
> >
> > Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
> > Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
> > Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles

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Re: help me rebut this

BBrown
patrick DonEgan wrote:

> Wow!I didn't realize you were so involved in the major oil industry.
> Sounds like you are right in the middle of it.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> See: http://www.co2captureandstorage.info/
>>
>> We just got done building one of these plants at Beulah N.D. that sends the
>>    
>
>
> Wow!I didn't realize you were so involved in the major oil industry.
> Sounds like you are right in the middle of it.
>
>
>  
>> co2 into a Canada oil pipe line, and they injected into there oil fields
>> that improves the oil basin.  They then ship the oil back to us to a
>> experimental oil refinery here in Great Falls, Montana.
>>    
>
>
> Sounds interesting.
> I thought Canada only had "Shoal Oil"
>
>
>
>  
>> They are going to build a coal to experimental liquid refinery north from
>> us
>> that will not have a open stack like the oil field injection type.
>>
>> Anyway, I still do not have to buy the energy from them.  I purchase my
>> energy from five dams here in Great Falls, where the water energy is
>> recycle
>> to run the next set of six generators at each dam.
>>    
>
>
> You get a choice?
>
> Gee, here on the Big Island of Hawai'i, we get the choice of paying "HELCO"
> over 24 cents per KiloWatt-hour... or do it our selves.
>
> I am sure if there were some choice here, consumers would go for that.
> Can you have your company build a pipeline to us?
>
>
>  
>> Roland
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "SteveS" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:47 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] help me rebut this
>>
>>
>> This just appeared on my local sustainable energy list. Sorry it's long,
>> but I wanted to include the whole story. The first couple paragraphs are
>> the crux.
>>
>> In short the author comes up with EVs being dirtier than a Prius, based
>> on using coal to create electricity and coal being dirtier than gas.
>> Anyone have data to refute this (or support it)?
>>
>> I don't mean to get into coal vs. nuclear vs solar etc. Just want to see
>> if the figures given are accurate, assuming coal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> - SteveS
>>
>>
>>    
>>> Source: BetterWorldclub (The alternative Automobile Club)
>>>
>>> by Sunil Somalwar
>>>
>>> To paraphrase Jane Austen, it is a truth universally acknowledged that
>>> a single-minded environmentalist in possession of a good fortune must
>>> be in want of an electric car. Indeed, it is a common prejudice that
>>> since the Prius hybrid is efficient because it uses gasoline to
>>> generate electricity on board, an electric car that plugs into a wall
>>> socket must be equally good for the environment. Luckily, the numbers
>>> needed to address this prejudice are simple enough that one need not
>>> rely on somebody else's opinion.
>>>
>>> Let us conservatively say that a Prius goes 40 miles on a gallon of
>>> gasoline. After taking into account the 20 lbs CO2 released by burning
>>> a gallon of gasoline, 40mpg amounts to two miles per pound of CO2
>>> emission. On the other hand, a plug-in electric car may not emit any
>>> CO2 from the tailpipe, but when I draw a kilowatt-hour from the
>>> electric grid here in New Jersey to charge the car batteries, a coal
>>> plant in some other state belches out 2.5 lbs of CO2. According to
>>> Toyota, the plug-in version of the Prius will run about 2.5 miles on
>>> that kilowatt-hour of electricity, which means that I get only one
>>> mile per pound of CO2 emission. When I plug it in, my 40-50 mpg Prius
>>> becomes half as efficient and turns into a 20 mpg SUV. (The story with
>>> GM's upcoming Volt plug-in car is no different.)
>>>
>>> The Prius is not the culprit behind this Jekyll and Hyde behavior. The
>>> problem is that coal is twice as dirty as gasoline. One can argue that
>>> since not all of our electricity comes from coal, I should not assume
>>> that the electric car runs entirely on coal electricity. This argument
>>> does not hold water if you care about global warming because today's
>>> highest priority is to get rid of coal electricity. However, every new
>>> electric car is going to make this challenging goal that much more
>>> difficult to achieve. Is the conclusion any different if I have a
>>> personal windmill or a solar array on my roof? Not really, because
>>> then I should be using my clean electricity to displace coal, not to
>>> reduce my guilt when I charge an electric car.
>>>
>>> The reality is that coal is the cheapest fuel in face of a tightening
>>> electricity supply. It is sobering to know that despite all the hoopla
>>> about clean energy, the increase in US coal electricity in 2007 was
>>> more than 200 times the increase in solar photovoltaic! It is going to
>>> be difficult to get rid of this dirty fuel that supplies half of our
>>> electricity. We need electricity for high efficiency uses such as in
>>> mass transit where rapid acceleration is essential. On the other hand,
>>> as Toyota itself has shown, cars can run very efficiently on gasoline
>>> and should stay on it.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the strongest argument against electric cars is an economic
>>> one. By using coal as an energy source, electric cars will decrease
>>> price pressure on gasoline, leading in turn to less conservation and
>>> increased consumption. In simple words, electric cars will free up
>>> gasoline for Hummers (even if those guzzlers are in China). On top of
>>> emissions from burning every drop of gasoline that we can dig up,
>>> there will be emissions from coal used in the transportation sector.
>>> Electric cars thus insidiously fulfill a fervent goal of the coal
>>> lobby: converting coal into liquid fuel (synfuel). Environmentalists
>>> justifiably oppose these dirty synfuels, yet most do no seem to
>>> realize that the electric car gives coal a backdoor entry into
>>> transportation. It should be telling that some of the powerful
>>> political backers of the electric car are actively hostile to any
>>> efforts to reduce global warming. Although they make appropriate
>>> noises about clean alternatives, their rationale is that domestic coal
>>> is better than imported petroleum and increases in greenhouse
>>> emissions are irrelevant.
>>>
>>> As much as we may hate petroleum, putting coal in the gas tank is a
>>> step in the wrong direction. Efficient electric cars may make sense
>>> after we manage to clean up the electric grid, but we must not put
>>> this electric cart before the horse.
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Sources of Information: US DOE Energy Information Agency, Toyota
>>> engineers as quoted in New York Times on 14 January 2008 and the GM
>>> Volt website.
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Sunil Somalwar ([hidden email]) is a Professor of Physics at
>>> Rutgers University, a volunteer leader in Sierra Club's New Jersey
>>> Chapter and Co-chairs SavingWildTigers.org
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>    
>
>
>  
This has been a fun thread to follow.
It is proof that, we all come from hugely different backgrounds, but we
all agree on one thing here - that to build a personal EV is to take
control of a little piece or lives and get ahead, trying to do the best
we can to not waste, to more carefully use the resources we have (again
for a variety of different reasons). My job requires me to travel a lot,
most local, some distance. I will never totaly get rid of the gas
guzzler - I need it. But more than 70% of my driving is less than 40
miles a day.
An EV for me just might be perfect - I should know shortly. Maybe I can
cut back on the number of MY dollars being used to build mansions in the
arab countries and elsewhere. And maybe I can whittle down my monthly
600 - 700 dollar transportation fuel bill.
I read and greatly respect the information and experience some of you
have. I am learning every day.
Thanks, and good luck to all of you!
Bob
 


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